DeathGodKyo
2013-08-18, 10:05 PM
Note, I do NOT mean the party has like 2 people or something. Literally, the campaign at hand involves the entire party (5 people) playing Small (or, on DM approval, even smaller) races. So yeah, now that that's cleared out of the way...
My friends and I are currently preparing for a straight-3.5 game (we'd prefer not to ask the DM to houserule back anything from PF/4E), and so that the confusion doesn't inevitably follow, I am NOT the DM, I am one of the players.
I'm sort of being the spokesman for the party here (and will be playing the "leader" in-game), and I know from reading around that the people here on Giant are great about optimizing to varying levels even with sourcebook limits. Of course, with the amount of evidence I have for that, I have an equal amount of evidence to assume that the entire subject of discussion will change by page 2-3 of this thread... But it never hurts to take chances.
So, yeah. The group doesn't have much experience with optimizing beyond what's roughly intelligent on a level-by-level basis (in other words, they aren't used to planning ahead), so if you could also explain general reasoning for choices, it would be much-appreciated. We're planning NOT to break the game world, and we have a fairly restrictive DM, so if you could not mention Hulking Hurler, Pun-Pun, Ubercharger, or probably most attempts at a moderately powerful Incantrix, that'd be appreciated.
Anyway, yeah. Since I'm the only player with even a vague understanding of planning and optimization (which is pretty much only because of bookworming and this site, since I haven't played in a while) we're going to need a bit of help. We want to be able to handle the widest range of potential challenges as possible, as well as preferably avoiding leaving anybody in the "useless" position very often.
We aren't using Point-Buy, but he did let us roll our stats a week early so we could plan our characters based on them. We are starting at level 1, and we're hoping to get most of the way to level 20, so something that doesn't have a totally dead start would be nice. Anyway, I'll list the players' stats, their preferences for classes/roles in general, and the sources we'll be allowed to use.
(As a side note, this is also a mainly Wilderness campaign, so while having a few dungeon-based skills are nice, I'd prefer not to have any builds focusing on a dungeon setting, since I've seen a few builds/classes that have been about bull rushing people into/through walls and pinning them with arrows)
Sources allowed:
Core Rulebooks (PHB, DMG, MM1)
MM2-5
Draconomicon
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Complete Mage
Complete Psionic
Complete Warrior
Dragon Magic
Epic Level Handbook (will probably not be used, but hey)
Oriental Adventures
PHB2
Races of the Dragon
Spell Compendium
Tome of Battle
Unearthed Arcana
Metaphysical Shaper from Book of Erotic Fantasy is allowed, though the rest of the book isn't
And we can get races from other books approved in a case-by-case basis, but anything aside from races and templates is off-limits (templates may as well be off-limits too, since I don't know any beneficial templates that are +0LA)
Me:
16, 15, 13, 12, 12, 10
Well, that was a bit crappy, but at least I've got a 16 and no negative stats. I could be a full caster and centralize my best stat, but that really doesn't seem befitting of the party leader. I was thinking about a Strongheart Halfling (hooray for race approval) with a Minor Troll bloodline who focused on mounted archery/general combat. Alternatively, a Gnome melee-er of some kind would be nice, but I really don't want the leader character of the party to use Divine Magic... Maybe I could try to get Arcane Strike approved and we can go down that path? Almost seems too MAD, though. And not BAB-savvy.
Now, for some stage names for my friends. Hurrah. (almost wanted to call them NPC #1 and so on... But that would've been a nuisance to you guys)
Rich:
15, 14, 12, 12, 11, 7
If this guy weren't hilarious to mess with, I'd feel bad for him on these rolls. Not to mention, he's that one guy in every non-monstrous group who picks Human every character. In other words, not his forte right here. He's the kind of guy who doesn't really like bookkeeping, so magic beyond UMD is out (his stats didn't support very many types of mage anyway, but if it's viable, he IS willing to try Psychic Warrior to train his bookkeeping skills). At this point, we're planning either Tripper Fighter/Psychic Warrior (dat Small size tho...) or backstabby/skillmonkey Rogue. Dump strength for more lulz, all that. He's open to a lot of things, but for flavor reasons, he'd prefer to stay looking as human as possible, so keep that in mind for racial choices.
Lili:
16, 14, 14, 13, 13, 11
Okay, so we're not the luckiest people with the dice. Not a shabby board of selection, but not amazing either. Main problem is, she was planning on being the tanky Cleric. Sans Nightsticks (since we don't have Libris Mortis), she won't be able to DMM very hard at 14 CHA and 1 feat of Extra Turning. Thus, she has decided she probably won't even go the DMM route, even though that's pretty much what she's done every other campaign she's been in. She is a master at the whole spellcasting thing and not so much the risk-to-reward type thinking, so she's also considering going Cloistered. Oh, and since she's asking, what's a good subrace of Gnome for this type of thing? She likes Gnomes.
Ian:
18, 14, 14, 14, 9, 9
ARROGANT OVERPOWERED SORCERER SON OF A-
Er, I mean, um... Yeah, long story short. He wants to try out a Kobold Sorcerer, and since I haven't actually physically read the Dragon-stuffs that make Kobolds so hardcore, we need everything. Not much else to say. Make sure to mention any alignment-specific necessities here too, if there are any.
Donut:
17, 16, 15, 14, 12, 5
Ouch, that dump stat is going to HURT. Otherwise, I'm envious of this guy's rolls. He's hoping to go for one of two ideas: He either wants to be an unarmed and unarmored arcane monk (does not need to be the crappy PrC based on this ideal, he cares more about fitting that picture than actual class choices) or, alternatively, a Mystic Theurge who uses self-buff and direct damage/debuff spells to enter melee and... go done explode stuffs. Yeah, that's about it. I call him Donut for a reason.
So, now that I've given their personal preferences, our rolls, and what books are allowed, can you help us be reasonably effective? We don't need to be dealing, like, thousands of damage at level 6 or something (that would probably require optimizing solely for damage anyway) but we'd like to be able to handle a wide array of situations. Also, while it's not a low-magic world, it is a low-wealth world where magic items will be nearly impossible to come across at your general smithy/apothecary/general store, so it would be highly beneficial to build some magic item creation into the characters' feat selections and the like.
Thanks in advance for any help!
EDIT: We've got some potential builds planned! Here goes an attempt:
(Personal Note: Went for Warblade instead of Swordsage for the first few levels, simply because having more low-level Maneuvers won't help my Archery much, and I wanted to leave taking TWF for when I could actually make use of it, plus as a bonus, this nets me first-level Zen Archery)
Me: Strongheart Halfling Warblade 3/Soulknife 2/Soulbow 5
Stat layout:
18 (+4) WIS (+2 for stat level-ups)
17 (+3) DEX (+2 Halfling)
13 (+1) CON
12 (+1) INT
10 STR (-2 Halfling)
10 CHA (how unfitting for the leader, but I think this will be more an RP-based campaign)
Flaws:
Vulnerable (-1 to AC), Noncombatant (-2 to melee attack rolls)
Feats:
1st Level: Point Blank Shot, Zen Archery, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot (correct me if this won't stack with TWF later?)
3rd Level: Improved Initiative
6th Level: Far Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting
8th Level: Manyshot
9th Level: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10th Level: Improved Rapid Shot
Rich: Forest Gnome Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Rogue +2/Shadowdancer 1/Swordsage 1/Rogue +1
Ability Scores:
17 (+3) DEX (+2 from stat level up)
14 (+2) INT
14 (+2) CON (+2 racial)
12 (+1) CHA
11 (0) WIS
5 (-3) STR (-2 racial)
Flaws: Shaky (-2 to ranged attack rolls), Frail (-1 to HP gained at each level)
Feats:
1st Level: Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Martial Weapon Proficiency (rapier) (yeah, he wants to go Rapier main-hand, dagger off-hand... Style choice, won't significantly hurt him, so I won't argue, though I did try to argue against him choosing a Forest Gnome in the first place)
3rd Level: Combat Reflexes
4th Level: Dodge
5th Level: Mobility
6th Level: Improved Initiative
9th Level: Craven
Lili: Whisper Gnome Cloistered Cleric 10 (note that she is actively planning to take Contemplative at level 11) (Domains: Travel and Time)
Ability Scores:
18 (+4) WIS (+2 stat level up)
16 (+3) CON (+2 racial)
14 (+2) INT (not that she's planning to Skillmonkey or anything, her primary goal is simply maxing Spellcraft, Concentration, and Knowledge (Religion), though I'm sure she knows how to use the extra points from going Cloistered)
13 (+1) DEX (+2 racial)
11 (0) STR (-2 racial)
11 (0) CHA (-2 racial)
Flaws: Inattentive (-4 on Listen and Spot checks), Murky-Eyed (roll miss chance twice on opponents with concealment, miss if either roll fails)
Feats:
1st Level: Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Extra Turning
3rd Level: Extend Spell
6th Level: Craft Wand (originally a flavor choice, but since our DM has houseruled Crafting times to usually be a good deal shorter, this may actually prove quite helpful)
9th Level: Quicken Spell
Ian: Desert Kobold Sorcerer 10 (was allowed the Web thingies)
Ability Scores:
23 (+6) CHA (+2 stat level up, +3 Venerable) (this feels totally inappropriate, having the Kobold be our technically most socially capable person XD)
16 (+3) DEX (+2 racial)
15 (+2) WIS (-2 racial, +3 Venerable)
14 (+2) CON
12 (+1) INT (+3 Venerable)
5 (-3) STR (-4 racial)
Flaws: Murky Eyed (roll chance to miss in concealment twice, miss if either or both fail), Noncombatant (-2 to melee attack rolls)
Feats:
1st Level: Dragonwrought, Draconic Rite of Passage, Improved Initiative
3rd Level: Draconic Reservoir
6th Level: Greater Draconic Rite of Passage
9th Level: Arcane Thesis (Wings of Flurry)
Donut: Minotaur Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer... Oh wait, no, that's not random or unplayable enough? Fine. Arctic Goblin UV Swordsage 3 (with free Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist at their Monk levels, courtesy of DM)/Wizard 5/Metaphysical Shaper 1/Enlightened Fist 1
Ability Scores:
19 (+4) INT (+2 stat level up)
17 (+3) CON (+2 racial)
14 (+2) STR (-2 racial)
14 (+2) WIS
12 (+1) DEX
3 (-4) CHA (-2 racial) (What, does he, like... not have a personality at all?)
Flaws: Frail (-1 to HP gained at each level), Vulnerable (-1 to AC)
Feats:
1st Level: Stunning Fist, Improved Initiative, Two-Weapon Fighting (too much of this in the party, make it go away T_T), Improved Unarmed Strike (horrah for freebie feat)
3rd Level: Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
4th Level: Scribe Scroll (free)
6th Level: Craft Wondrous Item
8th Level: Extend Spell
9th Level: Quicken Spell (note that the DM has houseruled it so that things like Sorcerers and, in this example, Metaphysical Shaper, can Quicken Spells normally, though any other Metamagic they use with their abilities has the usual increase in casting time)
So yeah, there we go. That's everyone's plan at this point in time. We're going to start meeting in two days, so let's patch up what needs patching before then... And before Donut realizes how difficult surviving will be when he's first getting into the Wizard levels.
My friends and I are currently preparing for a straight-3.5 game (we'd prefer not to ask the DM to houserule back anything from PF/4E), and so that the confusion doesn't inevitably follow, I am NOT the DM, I am one of the players.
I'm sort of being the spokesman for the party here (and will be playing the "leader" in-game), and I know from reading around that the people here on Giant are great about optimizing to varying levels even with sourcebook limits. Of course, with the amount of evidence I have for that, I have an equal amount of evidence to assume that the entire subject of discussion will change by page 2-3 of this thread... But it never hurts to take chances.
So, yeah. The group doesn't have much experience with optimizing beyond what's roughly intelligent on a level-by-level basis (in other words, they aren't used to planning ahead), so if you could also explain general reasoning for choices, it would be much-appreciated. We're planning NOT to break the game world, and we have a fairly restrictive DM, so if you could not mention Hulking Hurler, Pun-Pun, Ubercharger, or probably most attempts at a moderately powerful Incantrix, that'd be appreciated.
Anyway, yeah. Since I'm the only player with even a vague understanding of planning and optimization (which is pretty much only because of bookworming and this site, since I haven't played in a while) we're going to need a bit of help. We want to be able to handle the widest range of potential challenges as possible, as well as preferably avoiding leaving anybody in the "useless" position very often.
We aren't using Point-Buy, but he did let us roll our stats a week early so we could plan our characters based on them. We are starting at level 1, and we're hoping to get most of the way to level 20, so something that doesn't have a totally dead start would be nice. Anyway, I'll list the players' stats, their preferences for classes/roles in general, and the sources we'll be allowed to use.
(As a side note, this is also a mainly Wilderness campaign, so while having a few dungeon-based skills are nice, I'd prefer not to have any builds focusing on a dungeon setting, since I've seen a few builds/classes that have been about bull rushing people into/through walls and pinning them with arrows)
Sources allowed:
Core Rulebooks (PHB, DMG, MM1)
MM2-5
Draconomicon
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Complete Mage
Complete Psionic
Complete Warrior
Dragon Magic
Epic Level Handbook (will probably not be used, but hey)
Oriental Adventures
PHB2
Races of the Dragon
Spell Compendium
Tome of Battle
Unearthed Arcana
Metaphysical Shaper from Book of Erotic Fantasy is allowed, though the rest of the book isn't
And we can get races from other books approved in a case-by-case basis, but anything aside from races and templates is off-limits (templates may as well be off-limits too, since I don't know any beneficial templates that are +0LA)
Me:
16, 15, 13, 12, 12, 10
Well, that was a bit crappy, but at least I've got a 16 and no negative stats. I could be a full caster and centralize my best stat, but that really doesn't seem befitting of the party leader. I was thinking about a Strongheart Halfling (hooray for race approval) with a Minor Troll bloodline who focused on mounted archery/general combat. Alternatively, a Gnome melee-er of some kind would be nice, but I really don't want the leader character of the party to use Divine Magic... Maybe I could try to get Arcane Strike approved and we can go down that path? Almost seems too MAD, though. And not BAB-savvy.
Now, for some stage names for my friends. Hurrah. (almost wanted to call them NPC #1 and so on... But that would've been a nuisance to you guys)
Rich:
15, 14, 12, 12, 11, 7
If this guy weren't hilarious to mess with, I'd feel bad for him on these rolls. Not to mention, he's that one guy in every non-monstrous group who picks Human every character. In other words, not his forte right here. He's the kind of guy who doesn't really like bookkeeping, so magic beyond UMD is out (his stats didn't support very many types of mage anyway, but if it's viable, he IS willing to try Psychic Warrior to train his bookkeeping skills). At this point, we're planning either Tripper Fighter/Psychic Warrior (dat Small size tho...) or backstabby/skillmonkey Rogue. Dump strength for more lulz, all that. He's open to a lot of things, but for flavor reasons, he'd prefer to stay looking as human as possible, so keep that in mind for racial choices.
Lili:
16, 14, 14, 13, 13, 11
Okay, so we're not the luckiest people with the dice. Not a shabby board of selection, but not amazing either. Main problem is, she was planning on being the tanky Cleric. Sans Nightsticks (since we don't have Libris Mortis), she won't be able to DMM very hard at 14 CHA and 1 feat of Extra Turning. Thus, she has decided she probably won't even go the DMM route, even though that's pretty much what she's done every other campaign she's been in. She is a master at the whole spellcasting thing and not so much the risk-to-reward type thinking, so she's also considering going Cloistered. Oh, and since she's asking, what's a good subrace of Gnome for this type of thing? She likes Gnomes.
Ian:
18, 14, 14, 14, 9, 9
ARROGANT OVERPOWERED SORCERER SON OF A-
Er, I mean, um... Yeah, long story short. He wants to try out a Kobold Sorcerer, and since I haven't actually physically read the Dragon-stuffs that make Kobolds so hardcore, we need everything. Not much else to say. Make sure to mention any alignment-specific necessities here too, if there are any.
Donut:
17, 16, 15, 14, 12, 5
Ouch, that dump stat is going to HURT. Otherwise, I'm envious of this guy's rolls. He's hoping to go for one of two ideas: He either wants to be an unarmed and unarmored arcane monk (does not need to be the crappy PrC based on this ideal, he cares more about fitting that picture than actual class choices) or, alternatively, a Mystic Theurge who uses self-buff and direct damage/debuff spells to enter melee and... go done explode stuffs. Yeah, that's about it. I call him Donut for a reason.
So, now that I've given their personal preferences, our rolls, and what books are allowed, can you help us be reasonably effective? We don't need to be dealing, like, thousands of damage at level 6 or something (that would probably require optimizing solely for damage anyway) but we'd like to be able to handle a wide array of situations. Also, while it's not a low-magic world, it is a low-wealth world where magic items will be nearly impossible to come across at your general smithy/apothecary/general store, so it would be highly beneficial to build some magic item creation into the characters' feat selections and the like.
Thanks in advance for any help!
EDIT: We've got some potential builds planned! Here goes an attempt:
(Personal Note: Went for Warblade instead of Swordsage for the first few levels, simply because having more low-level Maneuvers won't help my Archery much, and I wanted to leave taking TWF for when I could actually make use of it, plus as a bonus, this nets me first-level Zen Archery)
Me: Strongheart Halfling Warblade 3/Soulknife 2/Soulbow 5
Stat layout:
18 (+4) WIS (+2 for stat level-ups)
17 (+3) DEX (+2 Halfling)
13 (+1) CON
12 (+1) INT
10 STR (-2 Halfling)
10 CHA (how unfitting for the leader, but I think this will be more an RP-based campaign)
Flaws:
Vulnerable (-1 to AC), Noncombatant (-2 to melee attack rolls)
Feats:
1st Level: Point Blank Shot, Zen Archery, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot (correct me if this won't stack with TWF later?)
3rd Level: Improved Initiative
6th Level: Far Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting
8th Level: Manyshot
9th Level: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10th Level: Improved Rapid Shot
Rich: Forest Gnome Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Rogue +2/Shadowdancer 1/Swordsage 1/Rogue +1
Ability Scores:
17 (+3) DEX (+2 from stat level up)
14 (+2) INT
14 (+2) CON (+2 racial)
12 (+1) CHA
11 (0) WIS
5 (-3) STR (-2 racial)
Flaws: Shaky (-2 to ranged attack rolls), Frail (-1 to HP gained at each level)
Feats:
1st Level: Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Martial Weapon Proficiency (rapier) (yeah, he wants to go Rapier main-hand, dagger off-hand... Style choice, won't significantly hurt him, so I won't argue, though I did try to argue against him choosing a Forest Gnome in the first place)
3rd Level: Combat Reflexes
4th Level: Dodge
5th Level: Mobility
6th Level: Improved Initiative
9th Level: Craven
Lili: Whisper Gnome Cloistered Cleric 10 (note that she is actively planning to take Contemplative at level 11) (Domains: Travel and Time)
Ability Scores:
18 (+4) WIS (+2 stat level up)
16 (+3) CON (+2 racial)
14 (+2) INT (not that she's planning to Skillmonkey or anything, her primary goal is simply maxing Spellcraft, Concentration, and Knowledge (Religion), though I'm sure she knows how to use the extra points from going Cloistered)
13 (+1) DEX (+2 racial)
11 (0) STR (-2 racial)
11 (0) CHA (-2 racial)
Flaws: Inattentive (-4 on Listen and Spot checks), Murky-Eyed (roll miss chance twice on opponents with concealment, miss if either roll fails)
Feats:
1st Level: Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Extra Turning
3rd Level: Extend Spell
6th Level: Craft Wand (originally a flavor choice, but since our DM has houseruled Crafting times to usually be a good deal shorter, this may actually prove quite helpful)
9th Level: Quicken Spell
Ian: Desert Kobold Sorcerer 10 (was allowed the Web thingies)
Ability Scores:
23 (+6) CHA (+2 stat level up, +3 Venerable) (this feels totally inappropriate, having the Kobold be our technically most socially capable person XD)
16 (+3) DEX (+2 racial)
15 (+2) WIS (-2 racial, +3 Venerable)
14 (+2) CON
12 (+1) INT (+3 Venerable)
5 (-3) STR (-4 racial)
Flaws: Murky Eyed (roll chance to miss in concealment twice, miss if either or both fail), Noncombatant (-2 to melee attack rolls)
Feats:
1st Level: Dragonwrought, Draconic Rite of Passage, Improved Initiative
3rd Level: Draconic Reservoir
6th Level: Greater Draconic Rite of Passage
9th Level: Arcane Thesis (Wings of Flurry)
Donut: Minotaur Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer... Oh wait, no, that's not random or unplayable enough? Fine. Arctic Goblin UV Swordsage 3 (with free Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist at their Monk levels, courtesy of DM)/Wizard 5/Metaphysical Shaper 1/Enlightened Fist 1
Ability Scores:
19 (+4) INT (+2 stat level up)
17 (+3) CON (+2 racial)
14 (+2) STR (-2 racial)
14 (+2) WIS
12 (+1) DEX
3 (-4) CHA (-2 racial) (What, does he, like... not have a personality at all?)
Flaws: Frail (-1 to HP gained at each level), Vulnerable (-1 to AC)
Feats:
1st Level: Stunning Fist, Improved Initiative, Two-Weapon Fighting (too much of this in the party, make it go away T_T), Improved Unarmed Strike (horrah for freebie feat)
3rd Level: Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
4th Level: Scribe Scroll (free)
6th Level: Craft Wondrous Item
8th Level: Extend Spell
9th Level: Quicken Spell (note that the DM has houseruled it so that things like Sorcerers and, in this example, Metaphysical Shaper, can Quicken Spells normally, though any other Metamagic they use with their abilities has the usual increase in casting time)
So yeah, there we go. That's everyone's plan at this point in time. We're going to start meeting in two days, so let's patch up what needs patching before then... And before Donut realizes how difficult surviving will be when he's first getting into the Wizard levels.