Small (sized) Party General Optimization

[DeathGodKyo]

Note, I do NOT mean the party has like 2 people or something. Literally, the campaign at hand involves the entire party (5 people) playing Small (or, on DM approval, even smaller) races. So yeah, now that that's cleared out of the way...

My friends and I are currently preparing for a straight-3.5 game (we'd prefer not to ask the DM to houserule back anything from PF/4E), and so that the confusion doesn't inevitably follow, I am NOT the DM, I am one of the players.

I'm sort of being the spokesman for the party here (and will be playing the "leader" in-game), and I know from reading around that the people here on Giant are great about optimizing to varying levels even with sourcebook limits. Of course, with the amount of evidence I have for that, I have an equal amount of evidence to assume that the entire subject of discussion will change by page 2-3 of this thread... But it never hurts to take chances.

So, yeah. The group doesn't have much experience with optimizing beyond what's roughly intelligent on a level-by-level basis (in other words, they aren't used to planning ahead), so if you could also explain general reasoning for choices, it would be much-appreciated. We're planning NOT to break the game world, and we have a fairly restrictive DM, so if you could not mention Hulking Hurler, Pun-Pun, Ubercharger, or probably most attempts at a moderately powerful Incantrix, that'd be appreciated.

Anyway, yeah. Since I'm the only player with even a vague understanding of planning and optimization (which is pretty much only because of bookworming and this site, since I haven't played in a while) we're going to need a bit of help. We want to be able to handle the widest range of potential challenges as possible, as well as preferably avoiding leaving anybody in the "useless" position very often.

We aren't using Point-Buy, but he did let us roll our stats a week early so we could plan our characters based on them. We are starting at level 1, and we're hoping to get most of the way to level 20, so something that doesn't have a totally dead start would be nice. Anyway, I'll list the players' stats, their preferences for classes/roles in general, and the sources we'll be allowed to use.

(As a side note, this is also a mainly Wilderness campaign, so while having a few dungeon-based skills are nice, I'd prefer not to have any builds focusing on a dungeon setting, since I've seen a few builds/classes that have been about bull rushing people into/through walls and pinning them with arrows)

Sources allowed:
Core Rulebooks (PHB, DMG, MM1)
MM2-5
Draconomicon
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Complete Mage
Complete Psionic
Complete Warrior
Dragon Magic
Epic Level Handbook (will probably not be used, but hey)
Oriental Adventures
PHB2
Races of the Dragon
Spell Compendium
Tome of Battle
Unearthed Arcana
Metaphysical Shaper from Book of Erotic Fantasy is allowed, though the rest of the book isn't
And we can get races from other books approved in a case-by-case basis, but anything aside from races and templates is off-limits (templates may as well be off-limits too, since I don't know any beneficial templates that are +0LA)

Me:
16, 15, 13, 12, 12, 10
Well, that was a bit crappy, but at least I've got a 16 and no negative stats. I could be a full caster and centralize my best stat, but that really doesn't seem befitting of the party leader. I was thinking about a Strongheart Halfling (hooray for race approval) with a Minor Troll bloodline who focused on mounted archery/general combat. Alternatively, a Gnome melee-er of some kind would be nice, but I really don't want the leader character of the party to use Divine Magic... Maybe I could try to get Arcane Strike approved and we can go down that path? Almost seems too MAD, though. And not BAB-savvy.

Now, for some stage names for my friends. Hurrah. (almost wanted to call them NPC #1 and so on... But that would've been a nuisance to you guys)

Rich:
15, 14, 12, 12, 11, 7
If this guy weren't hilarious to mess with, I'd feel bad for him on these rolls. Not to mention, he's that one guy in every non-monstrous group who picks Human every character. In other words, not his forte right here. He's the kind of guy who doesn't really like bookkeeping, so magic beyond UMD is out (his stats didn't support very many types of mage anyway, but if it's viable, he IS willing to try Psychic Warrior to train his bookkeeping skills). At this point, we're planning either Tripper Fighter/Psychic Warrior (dat Small size tho...) or backstabby/skillmonkey Rogue. Dump strength for more lulz, all that. He's open to a lot of things, but for flavor reasons, he'd prefer to stay looking as human as possible, so keep that in mind for racial choices.

Lili:
16, 14, 14, 13, 13, 11
Okay, so we're not the luckiest people with the dice. Not a shabby board of selection, but not amazing either. Main problem is, she was planning on being the tanky Cleric. Sans Nightsticks (since we don't have Libris Mortis), she won't be able to DMM very hard at 14 CHA and 1 feat of Extra Turning. Thus, she has decided she probably won't even go the DMM route, even though that's pretty much what she's done every other campaign she's been in. She is a master at the whole spellcasting thing and not so much the risk-to-reward type thinking, so she's also considering going Cloistered. Oh, and since she's asking, what's a good subrace of Gnome for this type of thing? She likes Gnomes.

Ian:
18, 14, 14, 14, 9, 9
ARROGANT OVERPOWERED SORCERER SON OF A-
Er, I mean, um... Yeah, long story short. He wants to try out a Kobold Sorcerer, and since I haven't actually physically read the Dragon-stuffs that make Kobolds so hardcore, we need everything. Not much else to say. Make sure to mention any alignment-specific necessities here too, if there are any.

Donut:
17, 16, 15, 14, 12, 5
Ouch, that dump stat is going to HURT. Otherwise, I'm envious of this guy's rolls. He's hoping to go for one of two ideas: He either wants to be an unarmed and unarmored arcane monk (does not need to be the crappy PrC based on this ideal, he cares more about fitting that picture than actual class choices) or, alternatively, a Mystic Theurge who uses self-buff and direct damage/debuff spells to enter melee and... go done explode stuffs. Yeah, that's about it. I call him Donut for a reason.

So, now that I've given their personal preferences, our rolls, and what books are allowed, can you help us be reasonably effective? We don't need to be dealing, like, thousands of damage at level 6 or something (that would probably require optimizing solely for damage anyway) but we'd like to be able to handle a wide array of situations. Also, while it's not a low-magic world, it is a low-wealth world where magic items will be nearly impossible to come across at your general smithy/apothecary/general store, so it would be highly beneficial to build some magic item creation into the characters' feat selections and the like.

Thanks in advance for any help!



EDIT: We've got some potential builds planned! Here goes an attempt:

(Personal Note: Went for Warblade instead of Swordsage for the first few levels, simply because having more low-level Maneuvers won't help my Archery much, and I wanted to leave taking TWF for when I could actually make use of it, plus as a bonus, this nets me first-level Zen Archery)

Me: Strongheart Halfling Warblade 3/Soulknife 2/Soulbow 5
Stat layout:
18 (+4) WIS (+2 for stat level-ups)
17 (+3) DEX (+2 Halfling)
13 (+1) CON
12 (+1) INT
10 STR (-2 Halfling)
10 CHA (how unfitting for the leader, but I think this will be more an RP-based campaign)

Flaws:
Vulnerable (-1 to AC), Noncombatant (-2 to melee attack rolls)

Feats:
1st Level: Point Blank Shot, Zen Archery, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot (correct me if this won't stack with TWF later?)
3rd Level: Improved Initiative
6th Level: Far Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting
8th Level: Manyshot
9th Level: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10th Level: Improved Rapid Shot

Rich: Forest Gnome Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Rogue +2/Shadowdancer 1/Swordsage 1/Rogue +1

Ability Scores:
17 (+3) DEX (+2 from stat level up)
14 (+2) INT
14 (+2) CON (+2 racial)
12 (+1) CHA
11 (0) WIS
5 (-3) STR (-2 racial)

Flaws: Shaky (-2 to ranged attack rolls), Frail (-1 to HP gained at each level)

Feats:
1st Level: Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Martial Weapon Proficiency (rapier) (yeah, he wants to go Rapier main-hand, dagger off-hand... Style choice, won't significantly hurt him, so I won't argue, though I did try to argue against him choosing a Forest Gnome in the first place)
3rd Level: Combat Reflexes
4th Level: Dodge
5th Level: Mobility
6th Level: Improved Initiative
9th Level: Craven

Lili: Whisper Gnome Cloistered Cleric 10 (note that she is actively planning to take Contemplative at level 11) (Domains: Travel and Time)

Ability Scores:
18 (+4) WIS (+2 stat level up)
16 (+3) CON (+2 racial)
14 (+2) INT (not that she's planning to Skillmonkey or anything, her primary goal is simply maxing Spellcraft, Concentration, and Knowledge (Religion), though I'm sure she knows how to use the extra points from going Cloistered)
13 (+1) DEX (+2 racial)
11 (0) STR (-2 racial)
11 (0) CHA (-2 racial)

Flaws: Inattentive (-4 on Listen and Spot checks), Murky-Eyed (roll miss chance twice on opponents with concealment, miss if either roll fails)

Feats:
1st Level: Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Extra Turning
3rd Level: Extend Spell
6th Level: Craft Wand (originally a flavor choice, but since our DM has houseruled Crafting times to usually be a good deal shorter, this may actually prove quite helpful)
9th Level: Quicken Spell

Ian: Desert Kobold Sorcerer 10 (was allowed the Web thingies)

Ability Scores:
23 (+6) CHA (+2 stat level up, +3 Venerable) (this feels totally inappropriate, having the Kobold be our technically most socially capable person XD)
16 (+3) DEX (+2 racial)
15 (+2) WIS (-2 racial, +3 Venerable)
14 (+2) CON
12 (+1) INT (+3 Venerable)
5 (-3) STR (-4 racial)

Flaws: Murky Eyed (roll chance to miss in concealment twice, miss if either or both fail), Noncombatant (-2 to melee attack rolls)

Feats:
1st Level: Dragonwrought, Draconic Rite of Passage, Improved Initiative
3rd Level: Draconic Reservoir
6th Level: Greater Draconic Rite of Passage
9th Level: Arcane Thesis (Wings of Flurry)

Donut: Minotaur Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer... Oh wait, no, that's not random or unplayable enough? Fine. Arctic Goblin UV Swordsage 3 (with free Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist at their Monk levels, courtesy of DM)/Wizard 5/Metaphysical Shaper 1/Enlightened Fist 1

Ability Scores:
19 (+4) INT (+2 stat level up)
17 (+3) CON (+2 racial)
14 (+2) STR (-2 racial)
14 (+2) WIS
12 (+1) DEX
3 (-4) CHA (-2 racial) (What, does he, like... not have a personality at all?)

Flaws: Frail (-1 to HP gained at each level), Vulnerable (-1 to AC)

Feats:
1st Level: Stunning Fist, Improved Initiative, Two-Weapon Fighting (too much of this in the party, make it go away T_T), Improved Unarmed Strike (horrah for freebie feat)
3rd Level: Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
4th Level: Scribe Scroll (free)
6th Level: Craft Wondrous Item
8th Level: Extend Spell
9th Level: Quicken Spell (note that the DM has houseruled it so that things like Sorcerers and, in this example, Metaphysical Shaper, can Quicken Spells normally, though any other Metamagic they use with their abilities has the usual increase in casting time)

So yeah, there we go. That's everyone's plan at this point in time. We're going to start meeting in two days, so let's patch up what needs patching before then... And before Donut realizes how difficult surviving will be when he's first getting into the Wizard levels.

[Yogibear41]

Well for the Kobold Sorcerer the thing to do would be to take Dragon-wrought as his level 1 feat and have him start the game as Venerable.

And then take Dragon wings at level 3, and then improved dragon wings at level 6. He probably doesn't have to take these other 2 feats but having wings is pretty cool and it could more or less save him the trouble of having to learn the flight spell (although the spell is better)

18, 14, 14, 14, 9, 9

Stats after racial adjustment and age boost would be:

5 str, 16 dex, 12 con, 12 int, 17 wis, 21 cha

He could switch int and wis if he would rather have more skill points and a lower will save.

After that I would just suggest that he picks his spells very carefully and try to cover all his angles without to much overlap.


For the Cleric if she likes gnomes and doesn't plan on going all charisma happy, I think whisper gnomes from races of stone are a good pick. Although you would have to get DM approval for another book.


If Donut wants to go monk gish if he uses sorcerer as his casting class he can dump wis to begin with and take a feat from complete arcana that will replace all his wis related monk abilities with CHA, but I think level 6 is as soon as you can take it so it would potentially be a pain until then.

I believe their is a feat(I think its in dragon mag though so it maybe no good for you) that replaces most of your wisdom based skills with intellect and you could also go an endurance/steadfast determination route to potentially completely negate having a wisdom that low(until you ran into an undead with wisdom drain of course)

[Lightlawbliss]

Donut would likely enjoy an unarmed variant swordsage, likely with strongheart halfling or whispergnome (if allowed).

Is ian wanting to play broken/nice/crud with the kobold. Kobolds can be gods (looks at punpun and Venerable Dragon-wrought) if they want, they can simply hold their own, or they can be one of the worse races you could pick.

Rich has a decent stats for a factotum (if allowed)

you: war forged scout (mm3) into a slam/unarmed combo build may fit you well.

was unearthed arcana blanket allowed or only parts of it? That is one of those books you need to be exact on cause it has a lot of stuff, some of it on the "must do if allowed" list.

[A_S]

Donut:
17, 16, 15, 14, 12, 5
Ouch, that dump stat is going to HURT. Otherwise, I'm envious of this guy's rolls. He's hoping to go for one of two ideas: He either wants to be an unarmed and unarmored arcane monk (does not need to be the crappy PrC based on this ideal, he cares more about fitting that picture than actual class choices) or, alternatively, a Mystic Theurge who uses self-buff and direct damage/debuff spells to enter melee and... go done explode stuffs. Yeah, that's about it. I call him Donut for a reason.
Might be worth noting that the PrC you mention here (Enlightened Fist) isn't actually all that crappy. I mean, it does lose two caster levels, which isn't great from a powergaming standpoint, but it gets some pretty cool stuff in return (Hold Ray, which lets you channel ranged spells into your unarmed attack routine, is probably the coolest of the bunch). It's a pretty good class for making fun, flavorful monk gishes.

Is Donut set on going Sorcerer? Because the best use I've found for Enlightened Fist (and monk gishes in general) is that they're they only good way I know of to make Dread Necromancer or Warmage work as a gish bases (tons of good rays to channel, and Versatile Spellcaster can get you 9ths even with three lost caster levels).

[DeathGodKyo]

Thank you for the very detailed answer, Yogi! Probably won't get anything from Dragon magazine, but everything else there should be quite helpful to them. I see you're used to Arcane casters, yourself?



I don't see what part about being a glorified construct with feelings that slams stuff around without a weapon seems to suit me... Wow, my vain side just noticed the implication there. I congratulate you on rolling a natural 20 in your attack roll against my pride, Lightlawbliss.

While I'm addressing you, I'll mention that while Factotum seems almost perfect for Rich, and I'll try for it, I highly doubt I'll be able to get Dungeonscape allowed. And hey, it might be too complex for him. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

Since we want the party to be on the same page here, let's say Ian wants to play pull-his-weight-without-reigning-as-God-over-everything-while-DM-throws-books-at-him. So, nice.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the first time I posted, but also, yeah, there was a blanket allow of Unearthed Arcana. And yes, the DM will allow us to take not one, but 2 flaws each at level 1. And yes, I'm going to abuse that to the very best of my ability.



Huh... I was just under the impression that Enlightened Fist is taking a mixture of the possibly number one best and number one worst player-intended classes (assuming Wizard, rather than Sorcerer, were being used in the equation), so weakening the strong class to boost the meager ability of the weak class was probably the wrong trade. Then again... This isn't high op, so a little caster level loss can't murder us.

He isn't at all set on Sorcerer, either, though Dread Necromancer just seems like WrongBadFun in every illegitimate sissy way I can impose. Necromancer Monk serving the side of mostly-not-Evils just rubs off wrong on me. It's his choice, though, so I'll present everything you guys have said anyway.

[Ashtagon]

Are you playing with the encumbrance rules? Because if you are, don't dump Strength. Small characters can only carry 75% what a Medium character can , which will really hit how much you can carry if you dump Str.

[Douglas]

For Ian, in addition to (venerable) Dragonwrought, the other big thing that makes Sorcerer Kobolds so good is Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). There's also applying the debatably legal Loredrake and White Dragonspawn templates, but those are pretty firmly in cheese territory.

For Donut, I would suggest a combination of Unarmed Swordsage and my homebrew fleshing out of Arcane Swordsage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187632). You'll have to get approval from the DM for it, and it needs a bit of extra bookkeeping at creation and levelup to figure out what level each spell-as-maneuver is, but it fits his concept perfectly - unarmed and unarmored monk-type who uses arcane magic to make people explode by punching them.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You:
Swordsage 3/ Soulknife 2/ Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) with TWF. Get Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) if you want to go with the mounted archery shtick. Alternatively, go with a Dragonblood race Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) with DFI and Wild Cohort, and be mediocre with a shortbow but buff the party's damage like nobody's business. Savage Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8 is fairly standard, and go with all the usual inspire courage boosting tricks.

Rich:
Maybe go Spellthief 1/ Psion or Ardent 4/ Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 6/ Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) 9, with Practiced Manifester to qualify. Spellthief allows him to freely use wands of Wizard spells from the abjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation schools, namely Wraithstrike. Get Mind Cripple from Psychic Assassin and it won't even matter how much HP damage he does against most foes. Maybe see if the DM will let him drop the Death Attack class feature in exchange for removing the alignment and special prerequisites. Definitely use Substitute Powers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) with Ardent, though Psion is probably the better choice.

For something completely different, Beguiler (PH2) is extremely light on bookkeeping for a caster and it plays like a rogue who traded his sneak attack for enchantments and illusions. Plus it only needs Int so it will probably agree better with his ability scores.

Lili:
Whisper Gnome in RoS is one of the best races ever printed, though it gets a Cha penalty. Since she's not planning on using DMM that probably won't even matter. It looks like she already knows what she's doing, so I won't get carried away.

Ian:
Kobolds are pretty good (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) even without True Dragon shenanigans. With Dragonwrought he can start out venerable age and get the +3 to mental stats without the -6 to physical stats, per RotD p39. douglas already mentioned the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, which is highly recommended for a Sorcerer. I'll always recommend this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) for any Sorcerer ever.

Donut:
Unarmed, damaging spells, buffs.... Druid! Better yet, use Jermaline (MM2) for his race, it's +0 LA.

[DeathGodKyo]

It could just be me, but I sense a large discrepancy between a disciplined fighting man who has dabbled in learning secrets of the arcane to become more powerful and focused... And the inevitability of a giant bear summoning more bears while charging into battle alongside its venomfire fleshraker animal companion, all before considering its general access to 9th-level Spells. In your language, this broken abomination is known as Druid. I guess it's not against the rules... But man... @_@ I'll see what he thinks, anyway, Biffoniacus_Furiou.

Then again, when you mentioned unarmed and then said Druid, I should've supposed you were joking.

You seem to have added a few metric tonnes of Psionics to the party. That's good, I suppose, what with our lack of it in pretty much any amount before. I think I'll probably go for that Soulbow. Seems rather feat-intensive, but hey...



Point taken, Ashtagon. Of course, I hardly want the Rogue or Tripper character carrying very much anyway, but encumbrance is still something to pay attention to.



Thanks a ton for the suggestion, douglas. I'll see what the DM thinks of that Arcane Swordsage homebrew.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would let the guy going enlightened fist know that he may want to consider

Monk 2 / duskblade 3-X / enlightened fist 10.

The abilities that let you cast a spell into a melee attack from each class should stack. Nothing like adding two shocking grasps into a stunning fist attack.

[A_S]

Huh... I was just under the impression that Enlightened Fist is taking a mixture of the possibly number one best and number one worst player-intended classes (assuming Wizard, rather than Sorcerer, were being used in the equation), so weakening the strong class to boost the meager ability of the weak class was probably the wrong trade.
I mean, it's not that what you're saying isn't true from a pure-power perspective; Enlightened Fists are going to be weaker characters than pure casters. But that's true of basically ever gish PrC, because gishing is just less effective than casting in 3.5. But if you've decided to be a gish, there are worse ways to achieve it than Enlightened Fist.

Sort of an "optimizing for power" vs. "optimizing for concept execution" thing.

*edit*
I would let the guy going enlightened fist know that he may want to consider

Monk 2 / duskblade 3-X / enlightened fist 10.

The abilities that let you cast a spell into a melee attack from each class should stack. Nothing like adding two shocking grasps into a stunning fist attack.
Unfortunately, the wording of the two abilities does prevent them from being used together, at least until Duskblade 13. The Duskblade Arcane Channeling says "you can use a standard action to cast any touch spell you know and deliver the spell through your weapon as a melee attack." The EF's Arcane Fist says you "can spend one of [your] daily stunning attempts to cast and deliver a touch spell as part of an unarmed full attack action." Standard actions and full attack actions don't mix.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It could just be me, but I sense a large discrepancy between a disciplined fighting man who has dabbled in learning secrets of the arcane to become more powerful and focused... And the inevitability of a giant bear summoning more bears while charging into battle alongside its venomfire fleshraker animal companion, all before considering its general access to 9th-level Spells. In your language, this broken abomination is known as Druid. I guess it's not against the rules... But man... @_@ I'll see what he thinks, anyway, Biffoniacus_Furiou.

Then again, when you mentioned unarmed and then said Druid, I should've supposed you were joking.

You seem to have added a few metric tonnes of Psionics to the party. That's good, I suppose, what with our lack of it in pretty much any amount before. I think I'll probably go for that Soulbow. Seems rather feat-intensive, but hey...

This Druid variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) is probably more what you had in mind then, and you could put it with Druidic Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger) and flavor the rage as more of a focused trance. He'd still need to get Improved Unarmed Strike, though using a quarterstaff with Shillelagh wouldn't be out of the question. Put Unguent of Timelessness on that quarterstaff so the spell lasts 365 times longer, or about six hours/level.

Soulknife into Soulbow is one of the lightest psionic builds ever, it doesn't even get any manifesting! I wouldn't call it feat intensive, especially with two flaws on a strongheart halfling. Speaking of flaws, don't forget these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30).

[Yogibear41]

Thank you for the very detailed answer, Yogi! Probably won't get anything from Dragon magazine, but everything else there should be quite helpful to them. I see you're used to Arcane casters, yourself?


Your welcome, and No I have never actually played one lol, but am looking to play a human monk/sorcerer myself starting a new game at level 1 in a week or so. lol guy has great dex, con, and cha, mediocre str and wis gonna basically miss all the time til level 3 and when I can pick up weapon finesse lol. I plan to go into enlightened fist myself the only think I am worried about is a low BAB, but an 18 dex with weapon finesse should help with that.

Also have a little side project e6 pseudo-dragon wizard I have been working on in case my other DM(2nd game) decides to change to an e6 game. (the more time I invest in it the more I want to play him!)

[Lightlawbliss]

I don't see what part about being a glorified construct with feelings that slams stuff around without a weapon seems to suit me... Wow, my vain side just noticed the implication there. I congratulate you on rolling a natural 20 in your attack roll against my pride, Lightlawbliss.

critting your pride wasn't my intent. I was actually comenting on the fact you seem to like hitting stuff, potentially with your fists.

Without the small size requirement I would have suggested something a bit larger, but the slam attack is the main thing required for slam/unarmed combo builds, and that is the only thing I could think of without book that is small, +0, and has a slam.

[DeathGodKyo]

Biffon, when I said about the Psionics, I didn't mean they were heavily Psionic-feely, I just meant you added two Psionic characters where there were not Psionic characters before. And yeah, I am not personally a fan of Manifesting anyway. Archery is my usual spiel, though I was considering other paths this time since the archer hardly seems like the guy to be in the "leader because everybody else is Chaotic Stupid" position.

As for the Druid thing, I suggested the Druid, but he decided to go for an Enlightened Fist-based build on account of the fact he thinks Arcane magic is more mysterious and awesome than Divine magic. Druid turns into a bear and shoots green fire at him in response, but I rest my case.



ah, lightlawbliss, I think we may have had a misunderstanding. Everyone was talking about Donut and his unarmed gish wants, so I can see where the misunderstanding came from, but unarmed is totally not my thing. I prefer to be hitting hard, fast, and often, and imagine myself looking cool while doing it. Thus, my Strongheart Halfling mounted (and probably mundane) archer thought. Even the Gnome gish had some kind of weapon in my head, since mounted archery just doesn't scream "effective, cool leader of strong party" in my head.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For an Enlightened Fist, try to include Master of the East Wind from Dragon 314. It gets 10/10 arcane casting and 10/10 Monk abilities. A Monk 1/ Wizard or Sorcerer 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind 10 gets 16/20 Monk abilities and 18/20 spellcasting. He would still be better off skipping both Enlightened Fist and Monk and using a more standard gish build with Abjurant Champion, and throwing in Improved Unarmed Strike + Superior Unarmed Strike and boosting his damage with Greater Mighty Wallop.

[Lightlawbliss]

with unearthed arcana, is the Gestalt variant allowed? Is anything specifically said no to?

[Metahuman1]

Point Enlightened fist guy at Wu Gen. They get a great Buffs list. Stone Fist, Displacement, Sheild, Mirror Image, Blur, Freedom of Movement, Greater Mighty Wallop, Greater Magic Weapon, Giant Size!

[DeathGodKyo]

Well, Gestalt is something you do for a campaign, not a singular character, so since the whole party isn't Gestalt-ing, I would figure that particular part of UA isn't being allowed.

Everything a character can do while still being considered standard is pretty much gold, though, such as Bloodlines and the double-flaws. We're working on a trust system not to spotlight hog and/or break the game world, and while we all already don't like being *too* powerful just so that encounters feel more awesome and authentic, our DM is certainly competent when it comes to knowing what should and shouldn't be nerfed/banned should the players be more unruly or munchkin-y than us. As players, we've unanimously agreed that we want to avoid nerfs and bans being handed out.

I suppose to answer if anything is said no to, this shouldn't apply unless one of us recreates character when we're higher level, but the only other thing specifically off-limits is LA buy-off. Also, although this doesn't really affect our character decisions, almost all of the blanket variant rules are trashed (the stuff like "Facing", the entire "Injury" section, "Armor to DR", the entire Campaign Stuff CHAPTER... Lots of badly made variant rules in UA, all of which are promptly no'd.)



Things in Dragon Magazine are, as a rule, even more terribly imbalanced one way or the other than the game itself, which is really saying something. The chances of me getting anything approved from it are frankly close to nill ever since that fateful day where I tried to make a Half-Minotaur...



I'll absolutely have him look at Wu Jen, but the Giant Size thing being advertised just seems morally repugnant with us starting at Small Size. XD

[Metahuman1]

If it helps, it's a 7th level spell. Taking straight full caster levels it doesn't come online until 13th level and doesn't hit full power till you've got 19 caster levels. So it is definatly a late game trick.

Also, you don't have to learn or prepair that spell (You don't have all spells known at the ready or auto get all your spells known.)


And the image of a small character going up against a dragon or an abolith or a mind flayer or Big T or a really big demon or devil who's taunting them for there size suddenly looking it in the eye before being punched right in the mouth repeatedly/Looking UP at it and getting stomped on/swatted repeatedly is HILARIOUS! :smallbiggrin:

[DeathGodKyo]

Donut decided on Wizard after all. Spontaneous Casting just irked him. Wu Jen could STILL be fit in, though, mainly because, y'know, it's not a Spontaneous Caster. Anyway, post edited to include our attempts at builds. Opinions?

[Lightlawbliss]

your build: what combat method are you aiming at with TWF AND rapid shot chains?

Is it just me or is donut going to have a lot of really low caster levels? General rule of thumb: many caser levels in one class is better then a lot of classes with low caster level.

[DeathGodKyo]

Read a few posts above. I'm doing Soulbow, and since each "bow" only requires one hand to fire, once I'm a Soulbow, TWF is perfectly legal. The Rapid Shots... Thanks to Soulbow's awesometastic bow ability, each shot is treated as fired from a +Wis mod Composite Longbow, and combined with Zen Archery, it isn't quite as difficult to deal adequate damage as with most Archery builds. Therefore, I was just aiming for as many attacks as I could get my grubby little hands on.

As for Donut, when I mentioned the Wu Jen, that would be replacing Wizard entirely. He's rather behind on caster level anyway due to 3 levels of UV Swordsage and the missing caster level up from first level of Enlightened Fist, but he's focusing on just one list.

EDIT: Also, Ian is wanting me to ask, since we're having some serious difficulty here, what would be a good Prestige Class for him, if any? We've got a number of problems; fluff-wise, the Complete Divine stuff is out, since the Rites of Passage pretty much strictly imply that he reveres dragons or dragon-gods, not the actual gods of the pantheon. World-wise, the two best Prestige Classes available within our books, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and Mage of the Arcane Order, both require affiliation to guilds... Guilds, in this case, of the non-existent sort. Ouch. So, yeah, any ideas from everyone on that? Straight Sorcerer just seemed like a waste of potential if other full-progression classes can work.