[PF] About Tanks and optimization.

[Krazzman]

Hello again Playground,

in our Pathfinder game we last came to a screeching halt and problem.
We are playing the "Tsar - Adventure Path" if that rings any bells and our Paladin fell recently.

The Party is level 11:
Human Sage Sorcerer, Elven Wizard, Aasimar Cleric (Merciful Healer), Half Elf Totem Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager), sometimes (rather rare) an Dwarven TWF Ranger and a Dwarven Paladin (without casting).

Our Paladin fell because of Alignment shifts that are forced because a place in this adventure is really that wickedly evil that it corrupts everyone around nighttime.

We could atone him back and so on but the player seems to have lost the fun playing this char because he "doesn't work as he intended it".

He planned on going tank. He fights with his shield and Dwarven Waraxe(Throwing returning) and so on.

The Wizard is Abjuration focused, buff, debuff and BFC.
The Cleric is a Merciful Healer and focuses on letting us all stay alive.
The Sorcerer (me) was planned for buffing and support too but is now moving in the direction of dealing damage and having utility stuff.

The Problem with him being tank was that he should't have too much AC or else the enemies wouldn't hit him anymore. He had nothing to bind those enemies to him. He had to do big chunks of damage to out dps the barbarian and this sort of sucked the fun out of this character for him.

Now I thought... how would one built a proper "Tank" then? Hold the line, Combat Reflexes and Imp Trip? But those don't work on many monsters due to size difference, reach being greater than the tank ones or being outright immune to it (oozes, snakes).

Books we have available are CRB + APG everything else is on a case by case basis.

I would probably start with Armored Hulk Barbarian trying to get the Rage power to smash the ground or go with a defensive style monk...(just a quick thought, not a real plan so far)

I hope you can help me with this problem as now I am really curious how you would go with it.

[Bhaakon]

The Stand Still feat from the CRB has a similar function as trip WRT locking down movement, but no size penalties, and no immunities (as far as I'm aware).

Combine it with the Brawler Fighter archetype's No Escape ability and you can prevent any adjacent opponents from moving (if you make your rolls and don't run out of AoO). You'd need to get that approved, though, as it's in UC.

It's probably not going to out-DPS a barbarian with 2-handed weapon, but opponents won't be able to waltz by it to get at the squishier party members.

[khachaturian]

my impression is that in pathfinder, being a "tank" doesn't serve much purpose. unlike video games, there is no mechanism for aggro, so devoting a lot of resources to AC usually means that enemies can just ignore you. i am currently playing with someone who is pursuing this path, and is essentially completely useless in combat... as a wizard.

[Jon Everyman]

Tanking in games without aggro is about dooming enemies whether they attack your or ignore you, usually. Crusader (3.5) does it by being both hard to kill, hard to move past (reach, trip, reflexes), and abilities like Iron Guard's Glare to tank enemies attack bonus if they try to hit allies. It's really hard to tank without all 3 aspects of D&D tanking going.

Proactive actions are always better than reactive actions. A proactive situation would be standing near an enemy with the stand still feat. They usually have the option of either taking the hit, attacking you, or withdrawing for a waste of a turn. Another proactive solution is using a feat like Shield Slam in combination with pounce, or Shock Trooper (3.5) to prone multiple enemies.

Mostly, it will depend on how willing the DM is to have NPC's attack the fighter over the mage. But you can also tank simply by having their action wasted if they don't attack you. If their choices are full attack fighter vs. risk getting tripped and double moving toward the mage, they'll probably just attack the fighter, maybe out of frustration. But you need lockdown, in some form, or you have to be scarier than a mage as a mundane.

[Feint's End]

First let me ask what is fascinating this player about being a tank? Because Dungeons and Dragons is a realistic game and in realistic games tanks simply don't work like they are described in MMOs and such.

Does he like the heavy armor part? The neigh unkillable part? Or the part of keeping enemies away from his group.

If it's the last one I have to tell you. It's not possible. At least not the way it is in other games. You can do it to some extend with wallbuilds but that also just blocks a few enemies and even then just melees.
You can be a pretty good tank actually (not in the taking damage way more in the keeping damage away from your team) with the right casters. Abjurers can block enemies with summons ... you can buff them with defensive abilities .... you can control enemies (really control them ... not trying like a melee) and even "tank" casters.

[Krazzman]

I have to seriously say: I don't know.

I think it was the holding enemies off from the Casters. Tanking is most likely done via our Barbarian. DR 5/- and good damage output really make it easier for her to stand around and actually draw aggro.
But his plan was to be tough and deny those things from hurting us squishies. From what I know. But my question is not how to build a Tank but to built something similar. I saw one Monk built that basically negated attacks from enemies and attacked them in return for attacking him.

The Crusader would really be the GOTO version I would take when I have to fit this role but for pathfinder? No clue.

Summoning Monsters isn't technically disallowed but frowned up on by us since it delays the fights and drags them out longer and so on.

But I guess I should rework my question: how could you built a Tough Melee that you can't ignore without going Barbarian (as she is hardly ever ignorable and is quite tough).

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, one could build a syth summoner. That always works.

I have also had good effect building a lifeleech sadist vitalist. You abuse the share pain power and unwilling participant to lock a opponent into being your HP sink.

What's more, you can afford to apply network power metapsionic to share pain and get it so half of ALL damage to ANY member of your party is dealt to the HP sink.

[Person_Man]

3.X/PF Aggro 101:

1) First, your allies should play as full casters, ranged builds, hit and run builds, or additional tanks. They can't just stand on the front line of melee combat next to you and hope that enemies are going to attack you and not them. The whole party needs to commit to you being the meat shield, and they need to adjust their tactics appropriately. This is particularly important for Rogues, Ninja, and other "glass cannons" who might want to fight from the front line without getting squished. They need to learn how and when to fall back while you stay in front, and have solid ranged/thrown options available when they do so.

2) Get two-ish complimentary methods of battlefield control, to prevent enemies from moving past you. Options include Stand Still, Step Up/Following Step, Dazing Assault, Dazing Spell, Antagonize, Bewildering Koan, Goad, Knock-Down, Knockback, Scorpion's Grasp, Sand Snare, Mage Slayer, Acheron Flurry, Undermountain Tactics, Thicket of Blades (Crusader Stance), Test of Mettle (Knight class ability), and many others. It also helps to get lots of space/reach, which is fairly easy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) in a 3.5 setting, but not impossible in a Pathfinder setting.

3) If you're in a dungeon or other enclosed space, this is actually not as hard as it sounds. Find a choke point - a passage or hallway that is no wider then your reach (which at a minimum, is 15 feet. You have a 5 ft space, and 5 ft of reach in every direction). When combat occurs, fall back to the choke point, and have your allies stand behind you.

4) If you're in an open area, you need an ally to create a "sand pit." An annoying or painful area that enemies want to avoid (solid fog, stinking cloud, wall of fire, etc). The tank(s) engage the enemies directly and prevent a big chunk of them from moving towards the party. The party stays on the other side of the sand pit, and use spells/ranged attacks. If a group of enemies breaks off from the tank(s) and moves around the sand pit and towards the party, the party should fall back each turn after casting/attacking, creating additional sand pits as needed.

5) Flood the Zone. The "anti-aggro" option. Instead of encouraging enemies to attack you, you Summon as many allies as you can, and encourage enemies to attack them instead. This the reason why a Summoner or Incarnate can be such an effective tank.

6) Commit to being a tank. Standard melee builds tend to put a strong focus on damage dealing and offense. You shouldn't suck at offense. But it is more important for you to be good at defense and healing yourself. This is particularly true when it comes to your choices in combat. Don't Power Attack for full every round. It's usually more important for you to Ready an Action (to disrupt casting, Trip an enemy when they try and move past you, etc), heal yourself, or otherwise delay the enemy and prolong combat while your allies focus on offense.

[NightbringerGGZ]

So I'm about to try out a tanking build to see how well it can work. Since Aggro mechanics are rare and don't work well, I'm focusing on getting in big hits, having a means to protect my allies, good mobility and some means of debilitating the enemy.

I'm playing a Halfling Cavalier with the Honor Guard and Emissary archetypes and the Order of the Shield. One of my traits is the halfling-specific trait, Helpful which makes my Aid-Another attempts provide a +4 bonus instead of a +2 bonus.

My early levels will be spent setting up my tanking ability, but luckily I get a ton of free feats from my archetype that help me out on the offensive front:
1) Toughness or Antagonize, Mounted Combat
3) Combat Reflexes, Body Guard
*Note, Aid Another AC bonus boosted to +5
5) Combat Patrol, Mobility
*Note, my mount also gains Mobility
6) In Harm's Way or an Offensive Feat
7) In Harm's Way or an Offensive Feat
8) Stand Still: Note this a special version that lets you make an attack against AC instead of a CMB check. You also do damage.
9+) Charging Feats, Trick Riding (works with Medium Armor)

The build is pretty MAD, needing to invest in Strength, Agility and Constitution, along with Charisma if you want to use the Antagonize feat. However, you get a lot of use out of Attacks of Opportunities, especially during the mid-levels.

A Combat Patrol with a Stand Still Attack while on the back of a mount with 40-50 feet of movement can do wonders to stop enemies. Bodyguard & In Harm's Way can allow you to prevent or absorb damage directed towards squishies.

Antagonize or charging in with a lance (for a big hit) should get the enemies attention focused on you. With the Order of the Shield you'll be converting lethal damage into non-lethal each time you get hit, and hopefully you'll have some DR by mid levels. Defensive Challenge at level 12 lets you challenge an enemy and apply a -2 penalty on any attack rolls against your allies.

Warding Charge at level 11 and Protect the Meek at level 15 are both abilities that give you options to charge across the battlefield and protect an ally. Add in some mobility feats on your mount (Spring Attack comes to mind) and you basically get to place yourself where you want on the battlefield.

You won't be the best heavy hitter, but you should do respectable damage with Lance Charges. Your ability to stop enemies in their tracks and your ability to intercept or weaken attacks made against your allies are going to be key.

I'll be starting play on this build in 2 weeks, so if anybody is curious I can let you know how it works out =).

[grarrrg]

Obligatory Oradin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257365) post.

It accomplishes the end result goal of Tanking well enough (albeit in an indirect way) and is flexible enough to be combined with some of the battlefield control tactics mentioned above.

[Blyte]

as a pally in tsar, you will be high enough level that you can use a smite on the big bad of every encounter. a smiting paladin should be doing enough damage to not be ignored.

forget sword and board, you should be using a vicious+holy 2-hander. use your swift lay hands to extend your life, not ac.

for situations with a bunch of trash monsters, use a variant channel energy option (it states that is available to non-clerics if they derive their channel energy from a diety) and selective channel. certain options from the list have some good control effects.

there are also spells available to the pally that force monsters to engage them. compel hostility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/compel-hostility) and knight's calling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/knight-s-calling)

buy a ton of pearls of power and cast these spells at-will, the wizard should be helping you craft these. level one pearls are 500gp (crafted), and they take no item slot.

perhaps take unsanctioned knowledge, and nab some other spells to make you not so easily ignored on the battle field as well.

the wizard should also be throwing the pally an enlarge person, allowing them to block doors and halls better... and simply look more menacing.