I want a sequel with Tarquin!

[pendell]

I'm loving almost every minute of OOTS (there are a very few moments which have my undying hatred, but not many), but I'm thinking Tarquin is an AWESOME villain. And far too good to waste as a side villain.

So I'm hoping that when/if the world is saved at the end of the next two books and when/if Elan and Tarquin are both alive and in their respective roles, I WANT TO SEE THEIR FINAL DUEL! I want an epic campaign in which Haley and Elan infiltrate the EOB to overthrow Tarquin and his villainous scheme! I want Tarquin as the main villain! I want to see Haley matching wits with him! I want to see rooftop duels! I want to see devious plans within plans within plans! I want to see epic death traps while Tarquin calmly sips a glass of wine as his villainous machinations come together! I want to see Elan come through it all with luck and pluck and grit, sort of like the Roadrunner to Tarquin's Wile E. Coyote!

Who's with me? Who else thinks there is some awesome storytelling here just screaming to get out?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[rgrekejin]

I definitely would, were it not for the fact that I'm not convinced that Tarquin's role in the main storyline is over yet.

[Rakoa]

I definitely would, were it not for the fact that I'm not convinced that Tarquin's role in the main storyline is over yet.

That's the part I'm worried about.

[The Pilgrim]

Tarquin seems so in control, that I can't help but feel that he is about to die in a few panels.

[Nolan]

Sequel... or prequel?

Would be neat for http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.pngto get the same treatment as :xykon: did in "Start of Darkness"

Edit: Fixed a minor mistake.

[Gift Jeraff]

Noooooooooooooooooooo

[LordVader]

I'd love a Start of Darkness type book for Tarquin. He has been hands down the most entertaining character in the comic since his introduction, and he's a fantastic villain to boot. Tarquin certainly deserves a bit of additional love from Rich.

[pendell]

Tarquin seems so in control, that I can't help but feel that he is about to die in a few panels.

Quite possible, but as far as I'm concerned it would be a tremendous storytelling waste. Still, it's not my story. If Rich wants to unceremoniously dispose of what I consider one of the best villains in webcomics, that IS his prerogative.

ETA: Most of our side villains have been fairly obviously distractions who would disappear at the end of the plot arc. Kubota was not terribly interesting. Bandit sorceress and her pa were one-note. Mama dragon was defined only by the fact that her son was killed, and beyond that was devoid of characterization. Tarquin is the first really, really, interesting side villain we've had, more interesting IMO than the main plot villains -- and in some ways more dangerous.

So I would say he deserves a plot and a storyline of his own before he steals too much more of this one :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[NerdyKris]

I agree. Tarquin is definitely sticking around for the final conflict. It would make sense anyways, now that he's stated he would destroy the gates as well, for the Order to accept his aid. Or, for that matter, for him to make a dramatic entrance against whatever forces Xykon has at the final gate.

[Poppy Appletree]

I'm pretty sure Tarquin will die by the end of the comic; if not in the main story, then as part of the epilogue. I would, however, love to see a Team Tarquin prequel book, though we're going to need to be introduced to the final two(?) members of his team first.

[Mike Havran]

Yes, of course. I would like to read that sequel, and it will be also great if there was a prequel focusing on Tarquin's team, Nale, and the Linear Guild's origin.

[Synesthesy]

I don't think that the father of the protagonist can be a side villain.

And I would love the true story of Tarquin met Elan's mother :smallwink:

[pendell]

I don't think that the father of the protagonist can be a side villain.


You've got a point. He's actually been in the comic since the introduction of Nale back in book 1, though he didn't get any speaking lines until this book. So the character has had almost as much planning as an of the protaganists -- after all, Nale and Tarquin are critical to the development of Elan himself and his future bride. It's not like bandit sorceress who was written in for a few dozen strips and then just as quickly written out.


...

Did she actually have a name? I forget.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

She did- Samantha- however, her father remains unnamed.

If you think of Miko as a "side villain" where "villain=antagonist" rather than "villain=Evil" - then she was, like Tarquin, pretty important for that arc.

[Synesthesy]

She did- Samantha- however, her father remains unnamed.

If you think of Miko as a "side villain" where "villain=antagonist" rather than "villain=Evil" - then she was, like Tarquin, pretty important for that arc.

Miko was one of the most important character of the story. Because she proves that it's not enough to be Lawful Good to be a good person (just like it's not enough to be evil to be a bad one), and this is one of the main theme of oots

However Miko was not as important as Tarquin. She was not the Father of one protagonist, she was not the reason to one of the recurrent villain to be evil (Nale), etc.

[rs2excelsior]

Yes! Though 912 seems to indicate that Tarquin wouldn't go for the whole "elaborate evil plan" thing in which the heroes only have to mess up one tiny element for the whole thing to come crashing down. That would be refreshing: a villain who defies half of the villain tropes and exemplifies the rest, all to his own, sinister advantage.

[The Pilgrim]

Quite possible, but as far as I'm concerned it would be a tremendous storytelling waste.

We are talking about the man who killed Miko for real when he had barely explored her new facet as a fallen paladin.

Tsukiko seemed like a character with a lot to say until she was shuddently killed off without serving to little more than letting the audience know a plot twists from SoD.

So I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin got shuddently killed before the end of the book. Maybe involving some harsh, mature decision from Elan.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Sequel... or prequel?

Would be neat for http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.pngto get the same treatment as :xykon: did in "Start of Darkness"

Edit: Fixed a minor mistake.

This.

Also, after Tarquin gave his line that "Power I can't access is no power at all," I immediate thought that a Tarquin/Xykon showdown would be incredible. "Power equals power."

[pendell]

We are talking about the man who killed Miko for real when he had barely explored her new facet as a fallen paladin.


I don't think so. She had reached the culmination of her story arc -- a person so totally caught up in their viewpoint that they were unwilling to change it when Hinjo spoke to her or when the gods themselves gave her the clearest sign possible that she was on the wrong track. She nonetheless continued down the course of her "chosen destiny" to its logical conclusion.

Her arc was complete; her story told.



Tsukiko seemed like a character with a lot to say until she was shuddently killed off without serving to little more than letting the audience know a plot twists from SoD.


Tsukiko had one purpose and one purpose only: To act as a vehicle to allow Redcloak to deliver critical exposition to the audience which had hitherto only appeared in Start of Darkness. Her story, again, was told to completion. She was a person who was like Miko in that she had a very limited view of the world and did not really understand what was going on around her. She didn't understand the undead, and she didn't understand Redcloak. Nor, I think , did she understand Xykon, if she believed there was any possibility of romantic interlude between them. SOD spells out why this was not likely.

She loved the undead and she never really stepped off that one note to anything deeper. She wanted to please Xykon and earn his favor. Xykon, for his part, wanted to use her as a counterweight to Redcloak. And so Redcloak tolerated her until she successfully raised herself from Nuisance to Threat. At which point, Redcloak destroyed her.

Her story was told and completed. She was brought into the story for a purpose, fulfilled it, and left.

Compare and contrast Julio Scoundrel: Julio was also brought in for a specific purpose (to allow Elan to gain his first dashing swordsman level) and left the strip after his purpose was served. But this character was sufficiently interesting to warrant additional storytelling with him as the main protaganist: We see one such story in SS&DT.

I think Julio Scoundrel was spared because the Giant wants to continue telling stories about the OOTSverse after the main story is finished, and some of the swashbuckler's adventures would make a good tale.

I think Tarquin has much, much more in common with Julio Scoundrel than he does either with Miko or with Tsukiko. Julio and Tarquin are very cool, very interesting characters whom I, personally, want to see more of.



So I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin got shuddently killed before the end of the book. Maybe involving some harsh, mature decision from Elan.

It certainly could happen, but I doubt now is the time for Elan to kill him.

1) it isn't dramatically appropriate. Tarquin spelled out that Elan would have to WORK to become the hero of the story before taking him out.

2) Elan is surrounded by Tarquin's guards. Is now the best time and place for an assassination attempt?

3) Even without that, Tarquin is more than a match for Elan in 1v1 combat. All those regenerating items and his armor make it almost impossible for Elan to inflict serious damage on him.

4) Finally and most importantly, Elan is not a killer. In terms of the "good" alignment, Elan is probably the brightest light in the strip. So far as I can remember, he's never killed anyone except in self-defense in combat. He doesn't have it in him to kill an enemy in cold blood, not even when that enemy just stabbed him in the back.

Nale, on the other hand, does. I can well see Nale attempting to murder his father, but I would be surprised if he was able to outsmart Tarquin. Tarquin is a world-class magnificent bastard, and Nale is ... I don't know how to describe him, but he's not half the schemer or the fighter his father is. Possible, yes, but unlikely.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mike Havran]

We are talking about the man who killed Miko for real when he had barely explored her new facet as a fallen paladin.

Tsukiko seemed like a character with a lot to say until she was shuddently killed off without serving to little more than letting the audience know a plot twists from SoD.

So I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin got shuddently killed before the end of the book. Maybe involving some harsh, mature decision from Elan.

There wasn't that much to explore about Miko, she had already lost her sanity. Keeping her longer would be pretty disquieting, not to mention difficult (how long will a wounded melee berserk live in the middle of a hostile army?)

Tsukiko's demise was shocking, I agree, but she wasn't a very important character. In the Team Evil, there was little she could do that Redcloak or Xykon couldn't and in terms of relations, as the roach said, who cares about her?

So, I would be surprised if Tarquin gets killed before the end of this book. And even more if Elan kills him, because that's the path I think he won't ever take.

[Ninja Dragon]

It would be cool to have a single book showing the battle between Elan and Tarquin, after the main comic ends. But just one book, I don't think this arc would be worth another webcomic.

[Bulldog Psion]

Is it strange that I find Tarquin to be incredibly bland? I don't hate him like some people do, it's just that he's ineffably meh to me.

I know it's weird, but he seems like a complete cipher to me.

Edit: a sequel with Malack would be a totally different matter, of course. :smallbiggrin:

[ThePhantasm]

Yes, of course. I would like to read that sequel, and it will be also great if there was a prequel focusing on Tarquin's team, Nale, and the Linear Guild's origin.

Now that's what I'm Tarquin about! :smallcool:

[BlackDragonKing]

Sequel... or prequel?

Would be neat for http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.pngto get the same treatment as :xykon: did in "Start of Darkness"

Edit: Fixed a minor mistake.

I sort of think a prequel would be pretty damn interesting for Tarquin, actually. Less "Critical plot exposition along with bad guy backstory" and more of a fun side-project, "The Genre-Savvy Villain's Guide to Dynamic Problem Solving". :smallbiggrin:

Seeing Tarquin's rise from an Evil Fighter on his own, to the leader of quite a formidable adventuring party, to the ruler of a huge chunk of the world, while at the same time showing the struggles and lessons he had to learn to become as competent (and as ruthless) as he is today?

Plus I think it'd just be fun to have a prequel about Tarquin's band of baddies coming together as a team; y'know, going from a bunch of different evil adventurers brought together by various circumstances to friends collaborating in one of the most subtle acts of Overlording ever. I think it would be a neat contrast to see an evil party that come to genuinely like and respect one another, and then reminding us these affable good friends are still EVIL as they go up against the heroes we probably ought to be rooting for in other circumstances and win. :smallwink:

[pendell]

The problem I have with a prequel is that it would show him victorious, and we already have one book where the bad guys win. Much as I like him, he's an evil villain who sets innocents on fire. It's not a happy ending until he's either redeemed or otherwise brought to book for his deeds. Most likely killed. He doesn't strike me as the easily redeemable type.

How about -- a sequel which would have flashbacks which would flesh out his backstory. Start in media res, show a big part of the story from his point of view, with a flashback interlude to show "how we got there from here", culminating in the grand showdown in his throne room.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[veti]

How about -- a sequel which would have flashbacks which would flesh out his backstory. Start in media res, show a big part of the story from his point of view, with a flashback interlude to show "how we got there from here", culminating in the grand showdown in his throne room.

I'm sure I'm missing something here - but how exactly would that be different from a "prequel"?

For what it's worth, I don't think Tarquin is an interesting enough character to support a whole book. It's unnecessary - there's no big story to be explained about his background - and it'd be a downer, because the protagonist would be an unmitigated git.

I refer (via Phantasm's awesome thread) to The Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11686399#post11686399):

I don't see any appeal in writing a story where the main character is an unrepentant evil maniac

I think that description covers Tarquin nicely. Your mileage may, of course, vary.

[ThePhantasm]

Yeah, it'd definitely be a bad idea for Tarquin to be the MAIN character in a book. But he could be a supporting character for someone with a more nuanced and sympathetic arc.

[skim172]

My opinion is that if Tarquin became a main character - fully fleshed out, seen both in his best moments and worst moments, and a dynamic, human individual - he would lose most of his essential charm. Tarquin is at his best when he appears in his victorious moments - when he's in control, unveiling his master plan, revealing his great power - that's what draws his fanclub to him. "Ooh, he's so cool, collected, he's never shaken or stirred - he's the badboy who always wins in the end" - he's James Bond. He's like the exact opposite of Nale.

But if you're gonna have a story with Tarquin as the protagonist, then you'll need to get inside his head - see the emotions, the person behind the facade. You'd need to see him when he's weak, when he's emotional - and worse, when he's being boring. Tarquin, as fascinating as he is, is a fairly static character - that's why he gets fairly limited screentime.

That's the case with most villains who get a cult following - the fact that they're not often in the spotlight is actually part of what draws the audience to them (aka the "Boba Fett Effect").

A story with Tarquin as the protagonist would quickly lose that core of what made Tarquin interesting. Or - it'd be a story where we get no character development or insight - just Tarquin doing stuff. And while that might be entertaining in a very shallow way, Rich Burlew is quite capable at writing a much more meaningful story.

I'm actually in favor of a prequel involving Tarkers - but with Nale as a protagonist. We already know a lot about what Nale is - giving us more insight into him won't ruin that. He's not necessarily a character with a lot of fans - but in this case, I think that's a good thing, as it means he's complex enough to lead the audience to reserve their opinions.

[Synesthesy]

Everyone here is writing that, for a true happy ending, Tarquin should die AND lose.

Have I to remind that "If I lose, I get to be a legend"?

I don't think Tarquin will ever die. Becouse if he simply die, he wins. To make Tarquin lose, the story needs something different. Something that needs more then two or three strips to show.

Tarquin is the "villain is cooler then heroes", different from Redcloak who is the "villain but with a good will from his point of view", and different from Xykon who is the "Villain (with capital letter)", and different from Nale who is the "villain who never makes the danger he wants to".

Everyone of them will have, in the end, a different destiny. For example, I think that Xykon will be destroyed, but that Redcloak will win and Gobbotobia will be in peace, maybe living near the paladin.

Tarquin won't be killed. Tarquin will lose, in the end. So he will live.


PS: if I had to write a "Start of Tarquin" book, I'd simply write the story of Tarquin a lot younger, when he met his wife (Elan's Mother), etc. Years before the actual General Tarquin. Just like the new Star Wars Thrilogy that shows Darth Vader's story. Maybe younger Tarquin was as cool as he's now, but maybe he was gooder. If he was so evil as he is now, why a CG barmaid would ever have married him?
Then something change, as usually. He took Nale with him, he made his party, he started to make his plan. Simply.

[The Pilgrim]

Her arc was complete; her story told.

Now, that's the main problem with Tarquin. He thinks he is the main villian, when he is just a side character. Happened also in the Haleo and Julelan PDF, where Tarquin assumed the History was all about him and his feud with the Starshines.

The idea that Elan HAS to become the hero of a dramatic history in which he has to battle his Father... it is Taquin's delusion about the plot, not the actual plot of the stroy - which revolves around the conflict for the Gates between OOTS and Team Evil.

Tarquin's role in the Plot is much different of what he thinks. His role seems to be mostly to provide character developement for Elan, and maybe even for Nale - which, contrary to Tarquin, HAS a role in the main Plot, as a contender for the Gates and as a (un)willing pawn of the IFCC.

Now, after The Dream, it seems that Tarquin's role is about to end, as Elan has almost grow over his childish family traumas.

About killint Tarquin, Elan is not alone there. Haley is there, and Haley is more than willing to sneak attack four arrows in Tarquin's back without much ceremony. Same as Nale. Of course, the presence of the Psion seems to indicate that the plan is to teleport the Order to the next gate and leave Tarquin behind and in custody of Nale.

The way things are, I see more fitting a book in which the backstory of Nale and Tarquin is told, then it takes over after the current point and we are told how Nale finally kills Tarquin and rushes to the last gate to participate in the climax of the main plot.

[Poppy Appletree]

Happened also in the Haleo and Julelan PDF, where Tarquin assumed the History was all about him and his feud with the Starshines.

That story has only just come out, and I for one have not had a chance to read it yet. Why would you mention details of its story outside of spoiler tags?

[pendell]

I'm sure I'm missing something here - but how exactly would that be different from a "prequel"?


"The Half blood Prince" is a sequel to "The Order of the Phoenix", but it contains a number of flashback sequences detailing Voldemort's backstory. It's still a sequel because the main arc is not a bare skeleton on which to hang prequel episodes. Instead, it is a fully fleshed arc with character and plot with the occasional flashback vignette.

As towards other points, I agree .. I don't want Tarquin as a main character, I want him as a primary antagonist, a villain whom the hero overcomes. That would be Elan, of course. Who else?

I think there is a really riveting story to be told about Elan and Tarquin's final confrontation, but that story is not being told in OOTS. In OOTS, this is a side story and thus will be pushed off-panel permanently at the end of this book. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be told in another book, sometime down the road.

I think that's a book worth writing.

And because of this, I don't think Tarquin is going to die in this book. Like Julio Scoundrel, he will be Put On A Bus and written out of the story.

Why not?

Well, the laws of drama as I understand it dictate that a personal antagonist villain is killed off primarily when one of two things happen:

1) When the character to whom the villain is antagonist sufficiently matures to overcome the villain.

Elan is nowhere near far enough along to do that. So Elan will not kill Tarquin now. Nor will Haley do it with a sneak attack with four arrows. First, because Tarquin is Elan's nemesis, just as Crystal was Haley's, and it is Elan's narrative role to kill him. Not hers.

Elan does not have the ability to defeat his father face-to-face, and there is no way we can get to an Elan willing to sneak attack his father in cold blood, or poison him. It's not in him.

In order for Elan to kill Tarquin, he must mature as a character. That hasn't happened yet, and the remainder of the OOTS story will be focused on Team Evil. Therefore, if Elan is ever to undergo this journey and overcome Tarquin, it must be in a sequel book after OOTS is completed.

2) The other way a villain like this is killed is by his own tragic flaws. Like Oedipus or the Greek heroes, some flaw in their character brings them crashing down, hoist on their own petard.

Tarquin's flaw is obvious from the name -- Pride. The last king of Rome was Tarquinius Superbus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Superbus), "Tarquin the Proud". Certainly the current Tarquin is by no means a humble man.


So I can well imagine Tarquin being brought down by his own pride. Thing is, I can't see a way to do that in ten strips and allow it to be satisfying. Also, to have him suddenly killed off right now would leave his conflict with Elan unresolved. The reason Tarquin is alive, IMO, is because Elan has not yet grown enough to kill* him. Killing Tarquin prematurely means that part of Elan's character will be permanently unresolved.

Besides which, Tarquin's primary purpose in this story is not as an antagonist. A few books ago Rich showed us that a being could be lawful good yet still be an enemy to the order -- Miko. This book seems devoted to showing us that a being may be blackest evil and yet serve as an ally -- Durkula, Malack (who taught living Durkon his spell, saved the order from destruction, and only attacked Durkon when Durkon forced him too), and now Tarquin.

:roy: Not everything is about good and evil.

So for these reasons I think Tarquin will be put on a bus and removed from the story. The story of Tarquin and Elan will not be told in these pages. The remainder of the story will be about Elan and the order saving the world (or not) from Redcloak and the Dark One. Which means there's ample room for a sequel, with Tarquin not as *main character* but as *primary plot antagonist/main villain*, a role he is certainly well capable of filling.

And I think that is a sequel worth writing.

ETA: Tarquin and Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) already had this discussion, I think.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

*"Kill" does not necessarily mean "reduce to -10hp". It only means to ensure that Tarquin as we now know him is destroyed utterly. A redeemed Tarquin who acts to undo the harm he has caused would count every bit as much for a "kill" as a Tarquin thrown down a reactor shaft. -- BDP.

[The Pilgrim]

That story has only just come out, and I for one have not had a chance to read it yet. Why would you mention details of its story outside of spoiler tags?

Because it's totally irrelevant to the plot of said story.

[BlackDragonKing]

About killint Tarquin, Elan is not alone there. Haley is there, and Haley is more than willing to sneak attack four arrows in Tarquin's back without much ceremony. Same as Nale. Of course, the presence of the Psion seems to indicate that the plan is to teleport the Order to the next gate and leave Tarquin behind and in custody of Nale.

The way things are, I see more fitting a book in which the backstory of Nale and Tarquin is told, then it takes over after the current point and we are told how Nale finally kills Tarquin and rushes to the last gate to participate in the climax of the main plot.

I honestly don't think either of Tarquin's sons are going to be killing him by the end of this, and certainly not soon.

Elan won't kill Tarquin. This I am absolutely certain of because it's not who Elan is or ever will be. Elan spares his brother, again and again, in the full knowledge Nale will never change his ways, never be grateful for the mercy, never stop trying to kill Elan in revenge when he eventually gets free. Elan spares Kubota, who he ****ing hated for killing Therkla, and still insisted on tying him up, bringing him to trial, and getting him locked up rather than killing him. Elan's not a killer, and he's not the sort of person that would kill his own father, even though he knows Tarquin has to be stopped. There's another way, one Tarquin won't expect, and I think Elan's on that track already. Tarquin would be ready for things like a bunch of sneak attacks while he's trying to talk to them or an attempted ambush later; Elan trying to solve the problem with violence and subterfuge won't surprise Tarquin because that's what he'd do in Elan's position. Elan's had a different idea, and I get the feeling Tarquin will be defeated in a way that won't make him a legend because Elan's not as brutal as he is and never will be, not because Elan was willing to sink to his level to stop him.

As for Nale, my problem with the idea that Nale will somehow overcome his old man are twofold. One; dispatching Malack did not magically make Nale more competent. I don't think I need to point out there's a world of difference between just knowing to keep Dispel Magic handy in case a chance comes up to exploit an old enemy's weakness when attacking them under any other circumstances would be the end of you and Nale trying to get the drop on his considerably more savvy father, in the seat of his father's power, BY HIMSELF. Even when Nale's not at single-digit HP, I'd imagine Tarquin's HP and armor plus regenerative items means he can take what, ten times as much damage as Nale can on a good day? Nale's a badly-built Bard whose level is scaled to be challenging to Elan. Elan's prestige class, which was enough to clobber Nale handily in a fight, did next to nothing against Tarquin, and seeing as Tarquin went toe-to-toe with most of the Order for a good couple comics, I can't see Nale triumphing there unless he tried to pull a Haley and attack while Tarquin was in the bath (and do you really think someone like Tarquin wouldn't be heavily defended at any time he's a little more vulnerable?)

The second reason, of course, is that Nale defeating Tarquin cheapens the entire point of Elan's emotional journey by taking the easy way out to Villains Do The Dirty Work. Oh hey, Elan no longer has to deal with his father being a no-good bad guy that it's his responsibility to stop! It's just good old incompetent Nale now, who will screw things up after his one victory the way he always does! Crisis averted! :smallsigh: Elan coming to terms with the fact his father is someone he needs to stop and trying to find a way to use his genre savvy against Tarquin's to escape Tarquin's all-win scenario is a much more interesting way for Elan's journey to conclude than his halfwit brother simply taking the problem off the table and making for another tired, predictable rumble with the Linear Guild at the end of Elan's journey. I want to see Elan show just how much he's changed from the childish bard that even a good paladin couldn't put up with into the man who outwitted the great General Tarquin, not Elan going up against Nale, who dodged the consequences of his stupidity and came back for revenge for the umpteenth time.

[Kish]

I want to see Elan show just how much he's changed from the childish bard that even a good paladin couldn't put up with into the man who outwitted the great General Tarquin, not Elan going up against Nale, who dodged the consequences of his stupidity and came back for revenge for the umpteenth time.
See...I wonder if you'll get the first. Or if we'll all keep getting the second. The Order mostly runs away or has mixed victories; when recurring villains cease to recur, it's because of another (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html) recurring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html) villain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html), or their own actions and bad luck (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html), or a temporary and costly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html) dip into evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html).

Maybe Rich will change that. Maybe the climax of the overall comic will feature the Order becoming a group of fully-competent fully-professionals who would never do something like the Readied Action strip from On the Origins of PCs. But...quite possibly, they'll (heroically) bumble their way to victory, because that's what they are and what they do.

[pendell]

But...quite possibly, they'll (heroically) bumble their way to victory, because that's what they are and what they do.


So long as this is a comedy , the heroes will be bumbling and maddeningly dysfunctional. There's nothing funny or comedic or unexpected about Captain Courageous rolling in while the light goes TING! off his pearly white teeth, doing intelligent, rational, and brave things to avert a World Destroying Menace. Not unless Captain Courageous is an utterly clueless ninny who is time and again saved by his teenage niece who does all the work in the background. But if Captain Courageous is played straight, we're well out of comedy and into drama. Which this isn't, even if it does have dramatic moments.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The Pilgrim]

As towards other points, I agree .. I don't want Tarquin as a main character, I want him as a primary antagonist, a villain whom the hero overcomes. That would be Elan, of course. Who else?

NALE.

Nale, not Elan, is the child who was raised by Tarquin.

I must insist. The idea of Elan being destined to tragically fight his own father, comes from Tarquin's own self-centered sense of dramatics. Not from any real prophecy in the comic or anything. It's totally Tarquin's idea. Elan's idea was to redeem him by remarring his mother.

After all, who is Tarquin, for Elan? For Elan, Tarquin is an stranger. Tarquin left Elan when our bard was a baby and has played no role in his life, other than leaving him with the void of being raised with the absence of a father figure. But after meeting him, our blonde banjoist has come to the conclusion that it was better to have been raised with no father than to have been raised by a father like Tarquin.

The character developement that Tarquin could provide to Elan is almost completed: Elan has accepted that his father is an evil bastard, has grown over the childish idea of redeeming him, and has overcome his trauma of having been raised without a father. All this was exemplified in The Dream during Giriard's Illusion.

Nale was not as luckly as Elan. He was raised alone with his evil father, estranged from his benevolent mother. Chances are good that Nale is a derranged psycopat brat mainly because of the way Tarquin raised him (to become a copy of him) and because all the abuse he has endured.

If a prequel is even written about Tarquin... what do you think will be it's main theme? To amuse us with the great villanies that Tarquin can perform with the help of his genre-savviness? No, the only theme worth exploring for a writer of The Giant's obvious caliber would be the relationship between Tarquin and Nale, and how it modeled Nale's personality.

And the logical conclusion to that story could not be that some random long-lost son pops up and kills the Tyrant. Karma dictates that Villiains are killed as a result of his own actions. And Nale, not Elan, is the result of Tarquin's actions.

Also, remember that Tarquin is NOT Elan's nemesis. Elan's nemesis is Nale (and, to be frank, despite having just killed a 200-years-old vampire, Nale is still in dire need of some feats in order to restore his credibility as a menace).

[pendell]

Perhaps. But given the choice between Nale and Tarquin as an antagonist, I'll take Tarquin. Tarquin is an interesting villain with hidden depths. Nale is ... well, Nale hasn't really grown or changed or been interesting in any way for quite some time. Nale is an irritant. Elan has matured, Nale has not. Nale was a worthy nemesis once but now ... now I believe Elan has outgrown him.

I confess that when I saw Thog was the champion my response -- despite being a Thog fan -- was "Oh heavens no, NOT THESE GUYS AGAIN!"

Their schtick is old. Nale's "har har , I'm Elan's evil twin who is trying to kill him for disproportionate revenge for imagined slights, using overcomplicated plans that always fall apart" -- it's been done. It's been done three times.

Tarquin is a competent villain and a worthy challenge for Elan. Nale has had three shots at Elan and failed each time. If this were a play, I'd be booing him off the stage.

If *I* were writing this story I would say that Nale was a training tool to get Elan ready for Tarquin. The first level boss who is supposed to challenge you but is not the ultimate villain. Now, in fact, that all his minions are either dead or removed from the field of play, would be the perfect time for Nale to permanently leave the story. This would not only remove a constant irritation, it would show Elan's development as he evolves from a child to someone capable of being the adversary of a major villain -- not the adversary of a bumbling comedic sideshow loser.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gift Jeraff]

Tarquin is one of the most boring characters in the comic because his "har har, I expected that!" shtick has become so predictably dull and it sucks all the tension out of any scene with him.

[Kish]

Yes, I have to agree with Gift Jeraff. I wouldn't miss the Linear Guild if they did get wiped out completely, but if Rich got drunk enough to email me asking which villain he should write out next, it wouldn't even be close.

[BlackDragonKing]

Tarquin is one of the most boring characters in the comic because his "har har, I expected that!" shtick has become so predictably dull and it sucks all the tension out of any scene with him.

I can understand where this view comes from, but honestly that's part of the reason I want Tarquin to remain a threat, not someone that gets unceremoniously removed or forgotten about for the rest of the strip; because seeing the order make Tarquin finally sweat and Elan actually surprising him would be far more satisfying than simply writing Tarquin out as quickly as possible for the sake of Nale, who is not a particularly compelling villain at this point.

Tarquin stands out to me because he's the only antagonist in this entire strip who thinks. Miko never needed to think things through, she just had dogma and paranoia to send her pinballing from one action to the next, obstructing the actual good guys in her belief they were the evil ones at every turn. Redcloak's only thinking insofar as he needs to manipulate Xykon to pull off The Plan; for the most part, his actions and attitudes are completely locked by the sunk-cost fallacy he's gotten trapped by. Xykon never thinks when he can avoid it, and he's made a career out of showing how you can get around that with sheer power, style, and horrifying levels of brutality. Tsukiko never thought about what would happen if she rocked the boat and pushed things too far after joining Team Evil, and how she's dead because of it. Nale never, ever thinks things through; he's locked himself into a repetitive series of ambushes that are becoming trite and annoying rather than an interesting development. It's just an old, old dance from the comic's origin, and I agree with the earlier comment that Elan's kind of outgrown Nale as a nemesis. Elan's changed. Elan's matured. Elan's become a better hero than he once was. Nale's the same smug prick he's always been, and even with his old man humoring him, he's still not smart enough to change up his tactics and snatches defeat from the jaws of victory AGAIN before limping off, not killed by his complete failure to defeat his brother AGAIN. Nale's a joke, and he's getting to be a pretty stale one. Tarquin's party, and Tarquin put into a situation where he's no longer holding all the cards, holds a lot more potential in my view than Nale reuniting with Sabine, scrounging up three or four new losers, and ambushing the Order of the Stick AGAIN down the road.

[Reverent-One]

Tarquin is one of the most boring characters in the comic because his "har har, I expected that!" shtick has become so predictably dull and it sucks all the tension out of any scene with him.

You expected him to come charging out of a portal with an army of dinosaurs and be alright with the Gate being destroyed? That's pretty impressive.

[The Pilgrim]

I have to agree, too, with Gift Jeraff.

And yep, Nale has been a boring and uninteresting character for a long time... up until "I have been thinking about killing you since I was nine years old" came out.

[pendell]

Then we must agree to disagree. There's no accounting for taste, even though mine is exquisite. :smalltongue:

I was just re-reading this panel, and I think there are a number of points in it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html) worth over-analyzing.

Item: Durkula notes that *he* is different. But Nale and Zzd'tri are still the same.

Which is my point. All the other characters have grown. Elan has grown. Durkula has grown. Vaarsuvius has grown. The LG hasn't . They're an exact copy of OOTS back in book 1, when they were mirror images. Now? Now they're *obsolete* villains. Oh, sure, they've had some power upgrades and some new equipment, but personality and drama-wise they haven't changed a bit. Roy has outgrown Thog and decisively beaten him. Vaarsuvius defeated Zz'dtri -- or would have but for the last minute plane shift. But his willingness to think outside the box shows he now has Zz'dtri's number.

They served their purpose, and now that the OOTS has outgrown them they are no longer needed.

Item: Nale explicitly calls out that he has nothing to fear from the heroes because they'll just throw him in jail again. Darn. It's too bad we don't have a suitable villain around to do the work of removing them from the story the hard way --- OH WAIT.

Item: One by one, each of the linear guild has been removed from active play. First Thog, buried under a colosseum. Disposition: Unknown. Then the kobold, dominated and then killed by Zzd'tris acid. Next, Sabine, banished for 24 hours. So for the next few hours she can't rescue Nale as she has done twice before. Finally, Zz'dtri, killed while incapacitated by a vampire.

And now here is Nale, all alone, at low hp, surrounded by villains.

It looks to me as if we're leading up to a "villains do the dirty work" moment ... except ...

except I can't imagine Tarquin willingly killing Nale. If Nale dies, he will somehow have to bring it on himself.

Regardless, I think it would be a crying shame to have Nale simply walk away from this one and reconstitute the Linear Guild after we've spent the entire book demonstrating that each one of the OOTS characters has outgrown his/her counterpart and consequently taking the LG to pieces. Sure, Nale could get away from this -- in 24 hours he gets Sabine back -- then some searching to get Thog and Zz'dtri's body and resurrected -- go down and get a random priest and kobold from rent-a-villain, and they're good to go.

To do the exact same thing a fourth time in the story they've done the last three times.

And that, so far as I'm concerned, would be a waste of space.

They've had a full book in which they've been the primary antagonists, and a full book in which once again they've lost. Get them off the stage, and get them gone FOREVER. If I never see Nale and Sabine again, it'll be too soon.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rakoa]

I'm not sure what Gift Jeraff is getting at. This is the comic in which Tarquin admits that Elan got the gate first, and congratules him on it. He didn't see it coming at all.

[Kish]

You expected him to come charging out of a portal with an army of dinosaurs and be alright with the Gate being destroyed? That's pretty impressive.
"Tarquin called in the army," "Tarquin called in the rest of his party," and both were speculated on this board .05 seconds after he had that exchange with Kilkil about having done some mysterious thing before he left Bleedingham. "Tarquin is going to be more than fine with everything that happened, and also go back to helping the Order instead of fighting them" has been constant since, oh, around the IRL year 1900.

It is possible no one specifically mentioned that the army would be mounted on dinosaurs, though considering the established role of dinosaurs in the Empire of Blood, I would venture that, if they didn't, it's probably because it was so obvious it would have been gauche to say it.

[Reverent-One]

"Tarquin called in the army," "Tarquin called in the rest of his party," and both were speculated on this board .05 seconds after he had that exchange with Kilkil about having done some mysterious thing before he left Bleedingham. "Tarquin is going to be more than fine with everything that happened, and also go back to helping the Order instead of fighting them" has been constant since, oh, around the IRL year 1900.

It is possible no one specifically mentioned that the army would be mounted on dinosaurs, though considering the established role of dinosaurs in the Empire of Blood, I would venture that, if they didn't, it's probably because it was so obvious it would have been gauche to say it.

If those non-specific predictions (made peicemeal by hundreds of commenters) are enough to make Tarquin's role dull, then I wonder why anyone who thinks that would want to keep reading the story even without Tarquin. I mean, predictions that this gate would be destroyed and they'd have to go to Kraagor's were also common, the Order beating the Elemental was almost certainly the expected result, Xykon is pretty certainly going to lose, ect and so on. Moreover, these events don't fall under the Tarquin going "Ha ha! I expected that" (the specific reason given for Tarquin's dullness), but simply readjusting to new circumstances, much like the Order has to do regularly. The last time Tarquin used the "I expected that!" bit was the thing with the "Nope" hood under the helmet, and I doubt anyone specifically predicted that happening.

[Mike Havran]

"Tarquin called in the army," "Tarquin called in the rest of his party," and both were speculated on this board .05 seconds after he had that exchange with Kilkil about having done some mysterious thing before he left Bleedingham. "Tarquin is going to be more than fine with everything that happened, and also go back to helping the Order instead of fighting them" has been constant since, oh, around the IRL year 1900.

It is possible no one specifically mentioned that the army would be mounted on dinosaurs, though considering the established role of dinosaurs in the Empire of Blood, I would venture that, if they didn't, it's probably because it was so obvious it would have been gauche to say it.
If one thinks an event predictable just because there were speculations about it on this forum before, one won't find many events surprising.

[The Pilgrim]

Then we must agree to disagree. There's no accounting for taste, even though mine is exquisite. :smalltongue:

Yep, no drama with that, for the ways of The Giant are unfathomable, after all.

I agree that the LG has not experienced growth, have become dull and repetitive, and they could be easly written off the game right now if not for one little problem: They are still the pawns of the IFCC.

So, the alternative to writting them off, is to force some development on them.

[Mike Havran]

Come to think of it, I wonder if the people who think Tarquin predictable, boring and hate his "I expected that" stuff, have the same problem with the IFCC.

[BlackDragonKing]

Yep, no drama with that, for the ways of The Giant are unfathomable, after all.

I agree that the LG has now experienced growth, and they could be easly written off the game right now if not for one little problem: They are still the pawns of the IFCC.

So, the alternative to writting them off, is to force some developement on them.

Technically, the linear guild as a whole was the IFCC's pawns, and Sabine's starting to have some friction with that already. I sort of think the best we can do with Nale at the moment is the IFCC deciding to cut him loose now that his actions have provoked other factions into working together to prevent Xykon from mastering a gate, like they wanted. Sabine's in their pocket, but if she suddenly finds out they're done with her boyfriend and leaving Nale to his fate, that does present an option for her to do something interesting. Nale himself, though...I don't see where the development for him can really GO. As an antagonist, he's not bringing anything new to the table, and he's shown he changes his ways about as easily as a tortoise flies. None of his ambitions are at all workable, and there isn't any competition for controlling the gates; the side Redcloak's supporting gets the gate, nobody else can do anything but destroy them. That's the open-and-shut of the matter, so Nale can hardly snatch up Kraagor's even if he could somehow beat Xykon. I just don't see anywhere for Nale to go that's doing anything interesting unless he gets involved in disrupting the IFCC's long game out of spite rather than going through the motions with the Order again.

[Kish]

Come to think of it, I wonder if the people who think Tarquin predictable, boring and hate his "I expected that" stuff, have the same problem with the IFCC.
Contrary to your and ReverentOne's implications, there is a wide range of predictability (and predicted-ness) in the comic. The IFCC has thus far been far less predictable than Tarquin.

[Gift Jeraff]

You're picking apart the words of my post and taking them too literally. By "saw it coming" I meant any variation of him being OK--happy, even!--with any and every outcome. He's amused by Haley's smokestick, he's amused by Gannji and Enor's escape, he congratulates the OOTS on destroying the Gate and says he probably would've done the same thing, he's OK with ultimately being defeated, etc.

And by "predictabl[e]" I didn't mean "I knew that exact event in the comic was going to happen!" Rather, everything has been in the same vein. While yes, you could say that about every character--Elan will always have a childlike innocence, Xykon will do something Evil, etc.--all of those characters have had their ups and downs. Elan is silly when he has the upper hand and silly when he's fleeing. Xykon is evil when he's dominating and evil after being humiliated by V/O-Chul. Tarquin has had no downs.


It is possible no one specifically mentioned that the army would be mounted on dinosaurs, though considering the established role of dinosaurs in the Empire of Blood, I would venture that, if they didn't, it's probably because it was so obvious it would have been gauche to say it.

I remember someone predicting an army marching in on dinosaurs, sometime between the first mention of reinforcements (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) and Tarquin riding in on the pterosaur. But as I said, that's not really what I meant.


Come to think of it, I wonder if the people who think Tarquin predictable, boring and hate his "I expected that" stuff, have the same problem with the IFCC.
One major difference is that the IFCC act more as a vague force than a group of characters. Another is that their appearances have been spaced out.

[Kish]

One major difference is that the IFCC act more as a vague force than a group of characters. Another is that their appearances have been spaced out.
Probably the biggest one, from my perspective, is that the IFCC is as close to universally recognized as evil as anything can get on these boards, and no one expects them to win. Whereas Tarquin? Claims to be above the "limited and unrealistic" alignment system, and his fan club believes him, making excuses for him and hoping loudly that he'll get away with everything.

[BlackDragonKing]

Contrary to your and ReverentOne's implications, there is a wide range of predictability (and predicted-ness) in the comic. The IFCC has thus far been far less predictable than Tarquin.

To be honest, the IFCC has also thus far done far less. They've been primarily observing the outcome of all that's going on, and practically everyone on the forum knew full well they were going to invoke V's debt when the gate was near. The only surprise the IFCC has offered so far has been that their deal with V appears to be exactly as fair as it was presented, and if you want to get into that, Tarquin surprises people every time he actually appears to mean what he said after the long discussion of how this might be an elaborate lie because he's Evil. :smallconfused:

Tarquin and the IFCC both strike me as bad guys who don't need to lie when the truth gives them what they want anyway, and both are pragmatic, long-term thinkers. People just take issue with Tarquin because he's been a much more direct influence on this story arc. If the IFCC were up and doing things, you'd start getting people upset with them having it all figured out, too.

[Reverent-One]

You're picking apart the words of my post and taking them too literally. By "saw it coming" I meant any variation of him being OK--happy, even!--with any and every outcome. He's amused by Haley's smokestick, he's amused by Gannji and Enor's escape, he congratulates the OOTS on destroying the Gate and says he probably would've done the same thing, he's OK with ultimately being defeated, etc.

And by "predictabl[e]" I didn't mean "I knew that exact event in the comic was going to happen!" Rather, everything has been in the same vein. While yes, you could say that about every character--Elan will always have a childlike innocence, Xykon will do something Evil, etc.--all of those characters have had their ups and downs. Elan is silly when he has the upper hand and silly when he's fleeing. Xykon is evil when he's dominating and evil after being humiliated by V/O-Chul. Tarquin has had no downs.

To be fair, it's often hard to tell what people mean on the internet if their wording is inaccurate/unclear. I do understand your position better given these corrections. That said, given that there's really been no real push against his main goals (the closest being a duel instigated by his not primarily melee combatant son), it's not surprising that he takes it all fairly well. Despite the competition with the Order to the gate, the threat of Xykon makes him an secondary concern for the Order and makes the Order a valid ally/tool for him to not have his "take over the western continent" plot get blown up by said main villian.

And it should be considered whether or not he really is as ok with the current events as he claims he is and is not simply lying to Elan, which is a definite possibility.

Should he stick around in the main plot (or get some sequel), I wouldn't expect him to remain a secondary villian with largely unrelated goals or to remain fully in the position of strength that he has currently due to being in his own empire with the heroes too busy to do anything about it. Either or both of these changes would deal with a lot of your concerns about him.

EDIT:

Contrary to your and ReverentOne's implications, there is a wide range of predictability (and predicted-ness) in the comic. The IFCC has thus far been far less predictable than Tarquin.

For the record, I do think there's a range of predictability in the comic. I'd say Tarquin's side of things is similarly, or maybe slightly less, predictable than the main plot villian's though.

[Porthos]

Everyone here is writing that, for a true happy ending, Tarquin should die AND lose.

Have I to remind that "If I lose, I get to be a legend"?

Well, that's what he thinks will happen.

However, contrary to popular belief, Tarquin can be wrong about things. :smallsmile:

[BlackDragonKing]

Well, that's what he thinks will happen.

However, contrary to popular belief, Tarquin can be wrong about things. :smallsmile:

This is something I think a lot of people miss; I respect Tarquin's intelligence and preparation to think that him being offed unceremoniously by Nale or another villain is highly unlikely, but I do believe he's wrong about Elan, and that the plan Elan came up with a while back to try and counteract Tarquin's will be something Tarquin would never expect.

Among other things, I think Tarquin's expecting the person who brings him down to do so with pure violence when they catch him napping and kill him, but we all know that's not how Elan rolls, now don't we? I think Tarquin doesn't understand precisely how good a guy Elan is, and I think that, more than anything else, is the key to defeating him.

[pendell]

Yep, no drama with that, for the ways of The Giant are unfathomable, after all.


Agreed :).



I agree that the LG has not experienced growth, have become dull and repetitive, and they could be easly written off the game right now if not for one little problem: They are still the pawns of the IFCC.


The important thing about pawns is they are expendable. I strongly doubt Nale is so important that the IFCC's plans would be seriously disrupted if he is permanently taken off the table. In fact, that's the entire point of a pawn, to prep the battlefield to manipulate the play of more powerful pieces.

Oh, they're also important in the endgame when all the more important pieces have been exchanged in a battle of mutual annihilation. But I'd be surprised if Nale and company survive that long.



So, the alternative to writing them off, is to force some development on them.

How? Character development is something that happens to protagonists and is the focus of multiple panels of story. Antagonists rarely change much simply because there's only so much story you can tell in a given amount of time, and that energy is better spent on the heroes. It's the same reason many characters are mysteriously orphans or have only one parent -- it's easier to flesh out one character than it is two, or even a whole family.

So far, the major "character development" Rich has given the Linear Guild has been to convert them from living characters to dead ones.

I personally cannot see taking time off for a character development arc of dozens of strips to remake the LG back into worthy antagonists. If it happens off-panel it will seem very jarring, as if Nale is suddenly a different character from who he's been for hundreds of strips without obvious reason. Likewise an instant change on-panel would seem forced. Characters don't realistically change their outlook that quickly, and Rich's stories are nothing if not realistic about the human interactions.

Besides which -- the Linear Guild has pretty much had this whole book to themselves. They've been the primary antagonists. Perhaps I can have Xykon do an Agent Smith impression:

:xykon: Evolution, Nale, evolution, like the dinosaur. Look out that window. You had your time. The future is our world, Nale. The future is our time.

---

:Ponders:

----

Maybe that's part of the symbolism of having dinosaurs in the story? The LG is just like those dinosaurs. A great and powerful beast from the past, now facing extinction due to changed circumstances. Evolve or die.

Like that hasn't been a theme in OOTS before now.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Porthos]

How? Character development is something that happens to protagonists and is the focus of multiple panels of story. Antagonists rarely change much simply because there's only so much story you can tell in a given amount of time, and that energy is better spent on the heroes.

*cough*

Redcloak. :smallsmile:

[Driderman]

I certainly wouldn't mind a story-arch sequel (or prequel) concerning Tarquin, since I think he's pretty funny, but a whole book might be stretching it. As somebody else mentioned, he's fairly static and really works best when we only get to see his Mag-Bas moments.

[The Pilgrim]

How? Character development is something that happens to protagonists and is the focus of multiple panels of story. Antagonists rarely change much simply because there's only so much story you can tell in a given amount of time, and that energy is better spent on the heroes.

Well, Redcloak comes to my mind.

He evolved from being just Xykon's spineless lackey into a villain almost on pair with him, with his own goals and personality. And most of it has been shown off-panel, in SoD. There, The Giant explained Reddie's real goals and motivations, and why he associates with Xykon and accepts abuse from him.

In the main comic, Redcloaks big turning point happens in #0451, when the azurites literally dropped a giant rock on his head. But if you haven't read SoD, you don't really fully understand the implications. You just asume that Redcloak begins to develope some spine but, ultimately, is still Xykon's lackey. Only if you have read SoD you fully understand that during DCF and No Cure, Redcloak is shown as a spineless drone because he is "sell-shocked" by the events in SoD - particulary the ending - and #0451 means he has woken up from that and become back his former self - still entangled with his obsession with Da Plan, but no longer refusing to think and act like himself instead of submiting his self to Xykon's.

Then we have #0830. If you have read SoD, well, you are shocked by his expeditive execution of Tsukiko, but you already know how the Plan really works. If you haven't read SoD... well, I have some friends who did not, and I can assure that revelation left their jaws really opened.

I'm talking about all this because, regarding Nale... there is still a lot we don't know about him. We learnt that he killed three of Malak's children and we assumed that was Nale being an spoiled brat as always and felt sympaty for the albino lizard. Then "I have been planning about killing you since I was nine years old" and "I killed your children as a practice run" came out and we realized this was not just Malak having a feud with Nale, but Nale had his own Book of Grievances, too. And it has left us wondering what really happened during Nale's childhood.

What if Nale had his own SoD? Maybe he wouldn't look like the bland character he seems now. We know - by word of Giant - that the root of his motivation as a character is, in fact, his frustration for not being able to surpass his father. How it came to this, however, we don't know - still.

I recall that someone once asked about if Elan was good and Nale evil due to the way they were raised. The Giant said that would be aswered in-comic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12242039#post12242039). We still have not got our answer.

So I think we are not done with Nale yet.

[sr123]

Tarquin and his adventuring party would make a great prequel. Among other things, I'd like to see the extent of the party's evilness (or lack thereof) and the development of Tarquin's romantic life -- why did he have so many later wives (some by coercion), but children with only one, presumably his first?

I also need to see how Tarquin, mostly fighter, came to view bards and narrative savvy with such admiration. In 912 he's basically letting genre dictate his role in the fate of the world, i.e. none, even though he clearly has the power and resources to help save it. After all, Elan lets genre be his guide and weapon -- he never lets it be an excuse for inaction.

Tarquin, for all his chill moxie, clearly has some real darkness in his past.

[chillmynaga]

I have many theories, or even predictions but this one is possible. Maybe Tarquin was a loser. lawful neutral/good 20 year old who was going out with elans mother due to personality. But tarquin was weak, had no power, no skills, and no talent. His wife said: "When you said you would vaporize anyone who touched my butt, I didn't actually think you would do it". This is him gaining power after he had enough.

[veti]

The important thing about pawns is they are expendable. I strongly doubt Nale is so important that the IFCC's plans would be seriously disrupted if he is permanently taken off the table. In fact, that's the entire point of a pawn, to prep the battlefield to manipulate the play of more powerful pieces.

If you really want to run with that metaphor - pawns are extremely important. They shape the battlefield, and (very) effectively dictate what the "more powerful" pieces can and can't do. They are "expendable" only in the sense that it sometimes makes sense to sacrifice them in exchange for some specific gain - but by that definition, every piece except the King is "expendable".


How? Character development is something that happens to protagonists and is the focus of multiple panels of story. Antagonists rarely change much simply because there's only so much story you can tell in a given amount of time, and that energy is better spent on the heroes.

Character development doesn't have to mean "change". Sometimes it's just adding detail on how a character came to be what they are. By that definition, Nale has had some development in the present arc.

And seriously, there is a huge unanswered question hanging over the LG. It's one that the Giant introduced quite deliberately, and until I see it happen, I'm not going to believe that he'll write them out without resolving it. The question is: "How deep are Nale and Sabine's feelings for one another?"

[skim172]

How? Character development is something that happens to protagonists and is the focus of multiple panels of story. Antagonists rarely change much simply because there's only so much story you can tell in a given amount of time, and that energy is better spent on the heroes. It's the same reason many characters are mysteriously orphans or have only one parent -- it's easier to flesh out one character than it is two, or even a whole family.

I actually like Tarquin. He adds an interesting flavor to the mix and deepens the conflict of the story.

But he is a fairly static character.

Tarquin is cool because he knows what's up. He's cool because he can adapt and stay in command of any situation. Tarquin is James Bond - he's the Fonz. Part of his villainy is that he seems so unbeatable - Elan's personal challenge is to find some way of meaningfully defeating Tarquin.

You're right - antagonists don't often get character development (although that's not an absolute rule). But if you're gonna write a prequel about Tarquin, he suddenly becomes a protagonist - like Redcloak in SoD.

And there's the problem. Because if Tarquin is your protagonist, are you going to give him character development? Because if you do, you ruin Tarquin's mystique. The magician's mantra - "The fun is in not knowing" - Tarquin is cool because we don't know what he's doing or how he's doing it, until he suddenly unveils his master plan. He is the magician. And it's just so not cool if you find out that there were two rabbits in the hat all along.

I'd disagree that he's boring and predictable - in fact, I'd argue the opposite. His entire existence is based around the fact that he's not predictable - his schtick is to swoop in with some unexpected revelation or development that gives control of the situation squarely to him.

But the upshot is that Tarquin is ultimately an unchanging character. That is what makes Tarquin Tarquin. He's just not the same guy if you see him at a loss, not knowing the answers, defeated.

Certainly, you could still write an interesting story without going into Tarquin's character arc. It'd be a little shallow, is all.

[brionl]

Tarquin and his adventuring party would make a great prequel. Among other things, I'd like to see the extent of the party's evilness (or lack thereof) and the development of Tarquin's romantic life -- why did he have so many later wives (some by coercion), but children with only one, presumably his first?


At one point he was specific about having "two sons" leaving open the option of one or more daughters. Hence the people talking about Lena and other possibilites.

[pendell]

*Cough*

Re-reading in light of 913 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html).


Item: Durkula notes that *he* is different. But Nale and Zzd'tri are still the same.

Which is my point. All the other characters have grown. Elan has grown. Durkula has grown. Vaarsuvius has grown. The LG hasn't . They're an exact copy of OOTS back in book 1, when they were mirror images. Now? Now they're *obsolete* villains. Oh, sure, they've had some power upgrades and some new equipment, but personality and drama-wise they haven't changed a bit. Roy has outgrown Thog and decisively beaten him. Vaarsuvius defeated Zz'dtri -- or would have but for the last minute plane shift. But his willingness to think outside the box shows he now has Zz'dtri's number.

They served their purpose, and now that the OOTS has outgrown them they are no longer needed.

Item: Nale explicitly calls out that he has nothing to fear from the heroes because they'll just throw him in jail again. Darn. It's too bad we don't have a suitable villain around to do the work of removing them from the story the hard way --- OH WAIT.

Item: One by one, each of the linear guild has been removed from active play. First Thog, buried under a colosseum. Disposition: Unknown. Then the kobold, dominated and then killed by Zzd'tris acid. Next, Sabine, banished for 24 hours. So for the next few hours she can't rescue Nale as she has done twice before. Finally, Zz'dtri, killed while incapacitated by a vampire.

And now here is Nale, all alone, at low hp, surrounded by villains.

It looks to me as if we're leading up to a "villains do the dirty work" moment ... except ...

except I can't imagine Tarquin willingly killing Nale. If Nale dies, he will somehow have to bring it on himself.


So I was mostly right. The one thing I got wrong was that I couldn't believe Tarquin would willingly kill Nale ... but still partly right in that Nale did bring it on himself.

I find it ... poignant, but appropriate. Tarquin had stuck up for his son against the rest of his adventuring party, but when push came to shove, he did the deed himself.

Villains do the dirty work, because Elan is too good to do it himself.

I feel sympathy for Tarquin. Sympathy because if his son turned out so bad then HE is partly at fault for this because HE raised him. If Nale is what he is , Tarquin has to bear part of the responsibility.

So Tarquin killing Nale is the least he can do own up to his share of blame in these events. A man should kill his own dog.

Poignant, sad, but utterly appropriate. If someone has to kill Nale for being too dumb and too evil to live, Tarquin is the only logical choice.

As I said earlier, one of the underlying themes of the strip is "Evolve or Die". Nale chose to die.

And that, I suspect, is the end of the Linear Guild. Oh, we may see Sabine again. But from now on Tarquin and his adventuring party are secondary antagonists, not LG, if they play a continuing part in the story at all.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[King of Nowhere]

I actually like Tarquin. He adds an interesting flavor to the mix and deepens the conflict of the story.

But he is a fairly static character.

Tarquin is cool because he knows what's up. He's cool because he can adapt and stay in command of any situation. Tarquin is James Bond - he's the Fonz. Part of his villainy is that he seems so unbeatable - Elan's personal challenge is to find some way of meaningfully defeating Tarquin.

You're right - antagonists don't often get character development (although that's not an absolute rule). But if you're gonna write a prequel about Tarquin, he suddenly becomes a protagonist - like Redcloak in SoD.

And there's the problem. Because if Tarquin is your protagonist, are you going to give him character development? Because if you do, you ruin Tarquin's mystique. The magician's mantra - "The fun is in not knowing" - Tarquin is cool because we don't know what he's doing or how he's doing it, until he suddenly unveils his master plan. He is the magician. And it's just so not cool if you find out that there were two rabbits in the hat all along.

I'd disagree that he's boring and predictable - in fact, I'd argue the opposite. His entire existence is based around the fact that he's not predictable - his schtick is to swoop in with some unexpected revelation or development that gives control of the situation squarely to him.

But the upshot is that Tarquin is ultimately an unchanging character. That is what makes Tarquin Tarquin. He's just not the same guy if you see him at a loss, not knowing the answers, defeated.

Certainly, you could still write an interesting story without going into Tarquin's character arc. It'd be a little shallow, is all.

All fairly true. Too bad. I would love to read more about tarquin. Oh, well. Not all stories are about character development. Sometimes, the hero just starts already powerful, and only has to use his resources to fulfill his goal. Maybe we can get a prequel like that one.

[Ninja Dragon]

Just have Elan as the main character. Everybody loves Elan. This could be the story of Elan's struggle to finally defeat Tarquin. The later doesn't need to be the protagonist, he already works greatly as a vllain.

[pendell]

Just have Elan as the main character. Everybody loves Elan. This could be the story of Elan's struggle to finally defeat Tarquin. The later doesn't need to be the protagonist, he already works greatly as a vllain.

Exactly. Tarquin is a villain to be defeated in a future book. Saving the world from total annihilation takes priority, but ending the Empire of Blood is Elan's responsibility when that is dealt with.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The Pilgrim]

I feel sympathy for Tarquin. Sympathy because if his son turned out so bad then HE is partly at fault for this because HE raised him. If Nale is what he is , Tarquin has to bear part of the responsibility.

So Tarquin killing Nale is the least he can do own up to his share of blame in these events. A man should kill his own dog.

Well, if you really think that, it means you don't understand Tarquin at all. Tarquin did not kill Nale because Nale was an evil loose cannon and someone had to take him out for the good of the countryside. Tarquin killed Nale because Nale denied him. Tarquin doesn't gives a crap about Nale being an evil bastad. He does about Nale don't being an obedient evil bastard.

I mean, what more must the Giant make Tarquin do to convince all you that Tarquin is a Monster without the slimmest trace of humanity?

Impale slaves and set them on fire? Check.

Rape and murder women? Check.

Not feeling any emotion for the death of his best friend, beyond "I lost an asset"? Check.

Murdering his own son? Check.

Really, Tarquin has only one motivation for everything he does: His own ego. Nothing more, nothing less.

[pendell]

I mean, what more must the Giant make Tarquin do to convince all you that Tarquin is a Monster without the slimmest trace of humanity?


I already knew Tarquin was a monster based on his willingness to burn slaves and for his willingness to co-operate with Malack in his schemes for mass bloodletting, which as I read it was the purpose of the colosseum. His list of crimes needed no addition to persuade me of that.

But I do NOT think his execution of his son was one of those crimes. Malack had not only thwarted his schemes, he had murdered his best friend. Tarquin still attempted to smooth this over in the interest of his family. Nale refused and demanded to be treated as an independent, like anyone else.

So Tarquin gave him exactly what he asked for. Nale , you are charged with the murder / destruction of Malack, a high Imperial official. Since you are a subject of the Empire by birth, this is also treason. You are found guilty. Your sentence is death.

It is what any normal shmoe who murdered a high official -- and Tarquin's best friend -- would receive. Nale asked for it, and got what he wished. He demanded what was due him as an independent man, and he received it: Justice.

He who had attempted to murder his brother for denying him was himself killed for denying his father. Poetic justice.

In fact, I will go so far as to say this: Just as Malack was written to vampirize Durkon, so Tarquin was written to kill Nale! That IS his story purpose, nothing more nothing less.

And now that this purpose is fulfilled, he'll be put on a bus and disappear from the story. Unless a god comes down on a machine and blows up him and the whole army with a wave of a hand. Not likely.

Is Tarquin evil? YES! I have never contended otherwise. I think you may be hitting a straw man. I want to see Tarquin in a subsequent book because he is a VILLAIN to be THWARTED and that isn't going to happen in OOTS, because this isn't that story.

But ... a monster devoid of any trace of humanity?

Would a monster without any trace of humanity even TRIED to save his son from death earned many times over at the hands of the rest of the party?

Would a monster without humanity have said " I came to this desert for YOU, Nale ... to give my son a second chance."

And held out his hand.

Not just because Nale would be of use to him. Because Nale was his SON.

No, Tarquin is a monster. But he is a Monster with a trace of humanity. Like almost everyone else in OOTS, Tarquin is a complex character and no mere cardboard cutout. The only "monster without a trace of humanity" in this strip is Xykon. And the fiends, of course. But Tarquin is a human being as well as a monster. This not only makes him more complex and interesting than Xykon, it also makes him many times more a threat than Xykon will ever be. Xykon accomplished nothing of note before falling in with Redcloak. Tarquin is master of a continent, and will be master of the world if not stopped.

He will be. By Elan. But not in this book.

Which is why I want a sequel.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lord Raziere]

No.

Tarquin should not get a sequel, a climactic end or anything of the sort.

Tarquin…should get only pain and suffering and a downfall that exposes what he truly is, that destroys whatever awesome, badass-ness or anything of the sort he ever had. he should get an end that only shows how lame, how weak, how pathetic he really is underneath his mask.

he should only get an ending reserved for the lowest of the low. and he should get it as soon as possible. he of all characters, should lose in the most terrifying, karmic and ironic of ways. it is the only thing he deserves.

[Rakoa]

No.

Tarquin should not get a sequel, a climactic end or anything of the sort.

Tarquin…should get only pain and suffering and a downfall that exposes what he truly is, that destroys whatever awesome, badass-ness or anything of the sort he ever had. he should get an end that only shows how lame, how weak, how pathetic he really is underneath his mask.

he should only get an ending reserved for the lowest of the low. and he should get it as soon as possible. he of all characters, should lose in the most terrifying, karmic and ironic of ways. it is the only thing he deserves.

You seem to act like Tarquin has personally killed your loved ones. If he has, I must admit, it's an impressive feat for a stick figure in an online comic.

[Mike Havran]

It's a hallmark of a wonderful villain to appeal to a lot of fans and yet manage to invoke such pure, undiluted hatred and disgust in others (hello, Miko)

The Giant makes great characters.

[pendell]

Okay. Just saw this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html).

So maybe there won't be a sequel after all.

Maybe Elan does have a plan to defeat Tarquin.

A plan that will leave Tarquin alive, because Elan doesn't have it in him to kill either his brother or his father.

Yet a plan that will leave Tarquin utterly, totally defeated without so much as a smidgeon of glory to his name.

What IS this plan? All I know about it is, he needs a cleric to pull it off.

What would it be?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mike Havran]

Okay. Just saw this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html).

So maybe there won't be a sequel after all.

Maybe Elan does have a plan to defeat Tarquin.

A plan that will leave Tarquin alive, because Elan doesn't have it in him to kill either his brother or his father.

Yet a plan that will leave Tarquin utterly, totally defeated without so much as a smidgeon of glory to his name.

What IS this plan? All I know about it is, he needs a cleric to pull it off.

What would it be?

Respectfully,

Brian P.He might not even need cleric's active help at all, he was just asking Durkon for an advice or a piece of information only he could know.

But I think that he'll pull it off during the sequel.

[Porthos]

You seem to act like Tarquin has personally killed your loved ones. If he has, I must admit, it's an impressive feat for a stick figure in an online comic.

What, that's the only reason one could wish an ignomious end for a character? :smalltongue:

Personally, I suspect Tarquin wouldn't get half the amount of 'hate' he gets on this board if he didn't get so much love showered upon him by others.

In some ways, this is turning into Miko Wars 2.0. People forget, but Miko had a very vocal minority supporting her every move.

Well, until she went coo-coo for cocca puffs, that is.:smallwink:

But what made the Miko Wars the Miko Wars was the split in the community over her. It's just that 95% of one side said, "Oh. Never mind then" when she attacked Shojo.

Getting back to Tarquin, there are plenty of people out there who respect him as a character. Who thinks he adds a decent level of spice. But they (*cough* I *cough*) don't particularly want to see him 'win'. They don't want to see him succeed at becoming legend and getting all of his life's goals.

Some people (*cough* again I *cough*) don't particularly want to see someone as evil and and nasty and as despicible as Tarquin get rewarded for a lifetime of, well, Tarquin.

Now, life (and storytelling :smallwink:) not being fair, I can't presume that Tarquin won't 'win', since he has managed to define a rather large area when it comes to 'win'.

....

But some of us can hope the little bastard gets what's coming to him. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

What, that's the only reason one could wish an ignomious end for a character? :smalltongue:

Personally, I suspect Tarquin wouldn't get half the amount of 'hate' he gets on this board if he didn't get so much love showered upon him by others.

In some ways, this is turning into Miko Wars 2.0. People forget, but Miko had a very vocal minority supporting her every move.

Well, until she went coo-coo for cocca puffs, that is.:smallwink:

But what made the Miko Wars the Miko Wars was the split in the community over her. It's just that 95% of one side said, "Oh. Never mind then" when she attacked Shojo.
And a chunk of the remainder said that after she attacked Hinjo. That said, her death seemed to bring about a certain amount of sympathy, and lots of arguments that her destroying the Gate was the right thing to do.

I could see Tarquin getting more popular, rather than less, after his death.

[BlackDragonKing]

What, that's the only reason one could wish an ignomious end for a character? :smalltongue:

Personally, I suspect Tarquin wouldn't get half the amount of 'hate' he gets on this board if he didn't get so much love showered upon him by others.

In some ways, this is turning into Miko Wars 2.0. People forget, but Miko had a very vocal minority supporting her every move.

Well, until she went coo-coo for cocca puffs, that is.:smallwink:

But what made the Miko Wars the Miko Wars was the split in the community over her. It's just that 95% of one side said, "Oh. Never mind then" when she attacked Shojo.

Ah, I remember the "Miko was justified in killing Shojo" and "Shojo deserved to die" threads like they were yesterday. They were a stubborn bunch, Miko's fans. :smallcool:


Getting back to Tarquin, there are plenty of people out there who respect him as a character. Who thinks he adds a decent level of spice. But they (*cough* I *cough*) don't particularly want to see him 'win'. They don't want to see him succeed at becoming legend and getting all of his life's goals.

Some people (*cough* again I *cough*) don't particularly want to see someone as evil and and nasty and as despicible as Tarquin get rewarded for a lifetime of, well, Tarquin.

Now, life (and storytelling :smallwink:) not being fair, I can't presume that Tarquin won't 'win', since he has managed to define a rather large area when it comes to 'win'.

....

But some of us can hope the little bastard gets what's coming to him. :smalltongue:

Tarquin is without a doubt my favorite villain at the moment in this comic, but I do believe strongly he will and ought to get his comeuppance at Elan's hands sometime. I just don't believe in rushing it, and was vehemently against the notion that Nale should dispose of Tarquin rather than the other way around. He is an extremely entertaining villain, but he's still a bad guy, and a big part of my vested interest in the guy is seeing how Elan will outsmart him in the end. :smallsmile:

[Porthos]

I could see Tarquin getting more popular, rather than less, after his death.

DON'T SAY THINGS LIKE THAT! :smalleek: :smalleek:

*tosses salt over shoulder*
*recites the Blackadder Scottish Play line three times*
*wards against the evil eye*

:smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

*tosses salt over shoulder*
*recites the Blackadder Scottish Play line three times*
*wards against the evil eye*

:smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue:

Heh. It was tempting fate rather. Still, if people are conscious of the issue, maybe it won't happen.

[BlackDragonKing]

I could see Tarquin getting more popular, rather than less, after his death.

If he remains unpopular with the forums, it is likely because he keeps winning.

If he starts to lose, he becomes more humanized, and some that only dislike him for his perceived flawless victory will like him more.

Combine that with the possibility he will grow in popularity once he's no longer a direct threat...

Our every move makes his victory more complete! :smalleek:

[Porthos]

Ah, I remember the "Miko was justified in killing Shojo" and "Shojo deserved to die" threads like they were yesterday. They were a stubborn bunch, Miko's fans. :smallcool:


Alright, I will admit to summarizing slightly for brevity. :smalltongue:

When it came to Miko, a decent sized chunk went "Whelp" when she attacked Shojo. Nice long controversy on whether she would Fall or not.

When she did Fall, that's when the rush to the exits occurred. Still, there was a chunk of the chunk left.

After she attacked Hinjo? Then it pretty much was the dead-enders by that point.

When it came to the True Believers, I always got a kick out of the "Miko Fell for violating her Paladin Code, not because she committed an Evil act" as well as the "Well, Miko thought she did the right thing, she just messed up in a huge way"

But I still maintain the level of support for Miko's actions fell off precipitously after she attacked Shojo. And it was the support within the community from the get-go which is what made the Miko Wars the Miko Wars.

====

It's funny. On one hand you have a Good character with a rotten personality who rubbed a large portion of fandom the wrong way (I'm utterly convinced that one of the reasons so many people didn't like Miko is because she acted like, well, Miko) and in the other hand you have an Evil character with a charming personality who has a large fanbase within the community.

Just goes to show how much people like pleasant personalities when it comes to fiction, I suppose. :smallsmile:

[Magesmiley]

I for one fall into the camp of wanting an extra book focused on Tarquin (and possibly his associates). He epitomizes why I think that LE is the most dangerous and powerful alignment for villains. And he's smart. Smart enough to match wits with and best PCs. He plans things through like many smart PCs do. And I love seeing a villain who matches PCs in his craftiness.

Xykon certainly isn't in his league in terms of being an intelligent threat to the order. Redcloak might be his equal in this area, but that's about it. So yes, a book on Tarquin, please.

[RedneckTex95]

I think it'd be awesome to see a finale battle between Hinjo's forces and Tarquin's forces. (If a sequel is the case anyway)

[sr123]

I only came to OoTS at the beginning of the desert arc, but I liked Miko and had a lot of sympathy for her character to the end -- utter egoism that finally gave way to a single moment of appreciation that she had only one friend in the world: Windstriker. Tarquin to me has a similarly impenetrable facade -- always a step above and ahead of those around him. He too will have to face the emotional consequences of his social isolation in the end.

But these are very human flaws for very flawed humans. But for those of us who willingly express empathy, it inevitably attracts curiosity as to what lies beneath their shell. inb4 dating broken people

That said, Miko's start as a gifted monk (a slightly more sympathetic Anakin Skywalker origin?) where social isolation comes with the territory seems pretty boring compared to the adventurous, amorous, antagonistic life of Tarquin.

[FlawedParadigm]

Tarquin becoming more popular? At last polling, he was 13% more popular than sliced bread.

[The Pilgrim]

Alright, I will admit to summarizing slightly for brevity. :smalltongue:

When it came to Miko, a decent sized chunk went "Whelp" when she attacked Shojo. Nice long controversy on whether she would Fall or not.

When she did Fall, that's when the rush to the exits occurred. Still, there was a chunk of the chunk left.

After she attacked Hinjo? Then it pretty much was the dead-enders by that point.

Not that we have to go that far into the past. Recently we have had:

- "Hey, that Albino High Priest of a Death God working for a Red Dragon in a slavist Tiranny and best buddy of Elan's Evil Father strikes me as a nice LN guy"
- "He is a vampire? so what? undead can be nice people too"
- "So, he wants to set up extermination chambers... ok, ok, he is evil, but still..."
- "He freaking turned Durkon into a vampire!!!"

Which was, too, a nice run. Not as intese as Miko's, but...

[BlackDragonKing]

Not that we have to go that far into the past. Recently we have had:

- "Hey, that Albino High Priest of a Death God working for a Red Dragon in a slavist Tiranny and best buddy of Elan's Evil Father strikes me as a nice LN guy"
- "He is a vampire? so what? undead can be nice people too"
- "So, he wants to set up extermination chambers... ok, ok, he is evil, but still..."
- "He freaking turned Durkon into a vampire!!!"

Which was, too, a nice run. Not as intese as Miko's, but...

To be fair, before we saw him in action it was not an outrageous assumption that Malack might indeed have been Lawful Neutral, as not everyone working for the Empire of Blood registers as evil. Word of Giant is that Tarquin's kobold secretary, for example, is LN, not LE, and before we got a real good look at what Tarquin was up to he'd seemed an extremely reasonable sort aside from hating Nale for very easily justifiable reasons.

This belief persisted a little too long, but I'm saying the initial impression is a pretty easy mistake to make, especially with his commentary that death gods by nature ought to be neutral or that his pleasantness to Durkon never seemed as superficial as some of Tarquin's charm.

[Acanous]

I, personally, love Tarquin's character and also think his use within the comic has been masterfully placed for maximum effect. When he doesn't show up in panel, he'll be a lingering threat, a loose thread that we're all aware of. When he DOES appear in panel, we know we're in for a treat- everything we see him do has some foreshadowing and importance to it. There's always SOMETHING big going on.

Tarquin isn't a good character to use in every page of the comic, so I don't think he'd make a good protaganist. I like him exactly where he is, as a second-line villain that *Might* be able to go head to head with the primary villain. So he's still a threat once the primary villain's been dealt with.

[Red XIV]

I would, however, love to see a Team Tarquin prequel book, though we're going to need to be introduced to the final two(?) members of his team first.
I'd certainly buy it.

[The Pilgrim]

To be fair, before we saw him in action it was not an outrageous assumption that Malack might indeed have been Lawful Neutral

Yes, and I myself gave some credit to the possibility that Malack was in fact LN. But it was fun to measure the pacing at which Malack's PR hit rock bottom as events unveiled his true nature.

[e1_conquistador]

I'd love a Start of Darkness type book for Tarquin. He has been hands down the most entertaining character in the comic since his introduction, and he's a fantastic villain to boot. Tarquin certainly deserves a bit of additional love from Rich.

Signed. Tarquin's potentially the character in the entire strip with the most depth.

[Porthos]

The other problem with having a book devoted to Team Tarquin is:

Would they stay The Amazing Team Tarquin if they were on every single page?

That is, how much of their magic disappears if they are in 'ordinary' situations.

Even in Start of Darkness: Xykon was offstage more than on. And that goes double for the post-lichification Xykon we all know and 'love'. Redcloak, Right-Eye, and Eugene ...

were the relatable characters for the audience.

Who would be the 'relatable' character for a Team Tarquin adventure? Especially given what is the IMO, cipher like nature of Tarquin.

Now a Linear Guild prequel, with Tarquin as a component of the book? That I see as far more possible than Tarquin being the star.