The ultimate evil forces? (Demons v devils)

[Soarel]

Hey! Noob here.

In a 4e campaign, who would be a better choice for the ultimate forces of evil? I can't tell it the scheming devils or destructive demons. I thought demons because of the connection to Tharizdun (the big bad of my current campaign) but devils seem more intelligent. Which one is more ultimate baddie material?

[obryn]

Hey! Noob here.

In a 4e campaign, who would be a better choice for the ultimate forces of evil? I can't tell it the scheming devils or destructive demons. I thought demons because of the connection to Tharizdun (the big bad of my current campaign) but devils seem more intelligent. Which one is more ultimate baddie material?
Demons are the sorts who will trash your city just because it's fun.

Devils are the sorts who will plan vengeance for years and trash your city when it hurts you the most, after killing your dog and wrecking your car.

Really, though, there's no need to choose. There's no "blood war" as such, in 4e's cosmology. And even if there were, there's no reason devils can't be manipulating the demons into working towards their ends, behind the scenes.

-O

[neonchameleon]

Hey! Noob here.

In a 4e campaign, who would be a better choice for the ultimate forces of evil? I can't tell it the scheming devils or destructive demons. I thought demons because of the connection to Tharizdun (the big bad of my current campaign) but devils seem more intelligent. Which one is more ultimate baddie material?

Devils want to own the world. Demons just want to watch the world burn (and set a few fires themselves). Which seems like more fun as adversaries?

[DeltaEmil]

Why not both?
>insert meme picture of little girl saying that.jpg

You can have them work in an unholy alliance (literally). A few of the demon lords are former devils, and a few devils like the advespa were demons before. And there's the old idea about how ice devils were all former mercenary demons.

To round it out, have the alliance being brokered up by a third faction, like for example mindflayers.

[Yakk]

Asmodeus, who stole a shard of pure evil and used it to obliterate the forgotten God, erasing the God's existence from even memory. Trapped in the seven Hells, only able to interact with the world by making bargains with exterior beings.

Demons, the children of the Primordeals infected and corrupted by a pit containing the source of all evil: among them the very creators of this universe, the sole survivors of the dawn war on the losing side. Maybe some of them fled there, to a place that the angels feared to tread, to plan a revenge on the Gods and reality itself.

The Far Realm, beings from far beyond this reality, where cause and effect, logic and the very foundations of reality differ. We can see their eyes looking down on us from the stars above, we can feel their incursions into the very roots of the world. Why are they here, and is why even the right question?

The shadowfel, the negative harmonic of the universe where death reveals herself to be dominant. The place where even Gods go to die, and not be reborn, but rather replaced. The seat of the Raven Queen, a mortal sorceress who killed a God even the Gods feared and assumed his place.

The feywilde, where the Fey hold court. Calling it the bright shadow of this reality doesn't make much sense -- why would you call the brighter image the shadow? The elemental chaos was the forge from which the universe was created, but the world is the fully realized foundation of reality, and the Feywilde is the brightest, most vibrant part of the world. Ruled over by the seemingly insane Fey, who bargain and build and destroy and grow and live in ways far greater than mortal man. Some of them are old enough to remember the Dawn war itself, and have been making plans ever since. A bright place, but light does not mean good.

The primals, beings who grew from the created world itself, then threw the very gods out at the end of the dawn war. What exactly are they up to that they cannot afford the light of the divine to peer into their demise?

The Gods, traitors to their parents, slayers of the Primordeals. Hidden in their palaces deep within the astral sea, sceming against each other and against the other great powers.

The Primordeals, creators of reality who no longer love their creation. Losers of the dawn war, beings of elemental chaos. Dead, but not sleeping. Hidden, but not gone.

The Djinn, heirs of the Primordeals, princes of the universe, rulers of the city of brass.

[Leewei]

I like the idea of devils as adversaries. They can have a warped sense of honor, faustian bargains, loyalty to each other, scheming, and so on. In short, there seem to be far more opportunities to roleplay with them in a game.

[Yomega]

Just remeber if you ever feel you won in a deal with a devil be afraid ....... VERY AFRAID.

So ya Id say devils if you have to choose Ive found nothing makes a party band together and actualy try to kick the bad guys but its after they have been cheeted robed humiliated denied there long due pay back and still owing the bad guy something :-)

[INDYSTAR188]

Asmodeus, who stole a shard of pure evil and used it to obliterate the forgotten God, erasing the God's existence from even memory. Trapped in the seven Hells, only able to interact with the world by making bargains with exterior beings.

Demons, the children of the Primordeals infected and corrupted by a pit containing the source of all evil: among them the very creators of this universe, the sole survivors of the dawn war on the losing side. Maybe some of them fled there, to a place that the angels feared to tread, to plan a revenge on the Gods and reality itself.

The Far Realm, beings from far beyond this reality, where cause and effect, logic and the very foundations of reality differ. We can see their eyes looking down on us from the stars above, we can feel their incursions into the very roots of the world. Why are they here, and is why even the right question?

The shadowfel, the negative harmonic of the universe where death reveals herself to be dominant. The place where even Gods go to die, and not be reborn, but rather replaced. The seat of the Raven Queen, a mortal sorceress who killed a God even the Gods feared and assumed his place.

The feywilde, where the Fey hold court. Calling it the bright shadow of this reality doesn't make much sense -- why would you call the brighter image the shadow? The elemental chaos was the forge from which the universe was created, but the world is the fully realized foundation of reality, and the Feywilde is the brightest, most vibrant part of the world. Ruled over by the seemingly insane Fey, who bargain and build and destroy and grow and live in ways far greater than mortal man. Some of them are old enough to remember the Dawn war itself, and have been making plans ever since. A bright place, but light does not mean good.

The primals, beings who grew from the created world itself, then threw the very gods out at the end of the dawn war. What exactly are they up to that they cannot afford the light of the divine to peer into their demise?

The Gods, traitors to their parents, slayers of the Primordeals. Hidden in their palaces deep within the astral sea, sceming against each other and against the other great powers.

The Primordeals, creators of reality who no longer love their creation. Losers of the dawn war, beings of elemental chaos. Dead, but not sleeping. Hidden, but not gone.

The Djinn, heirs of the Primordeals, princes of the universe, rulers of the city of brass.

This was a very well put and thought out response to OP's question. It really does a great job expanding on the traditional baddies and shows other possibilities. Now I'll have to see who else to include in my campaign which is almost to epic level!

[Adoendithas]

Really, though, there's no need to choose. There's no "blood war" as such, in 4e's cosmology. And even if there were, there's no reason devils can't be manipulating the demons into working towards their ends, behind the scenes.

Doesn't the Manual of the Planes detail the Blood War when it's describing the Nine Hells? If the PCs are fighting both the demons and the devils, it seems more likely that one of them will ally with the party than with each other.