Reverse-engineering a build: 9o9 JPM

[Xhosant]

Long story short, an admin from the Minmax boards (Sinfire Titan) made a handbook for the Crusader class a few years ago, which she never quite finished. One of the last parts was something like this:


Jade Phoenix Mage (9o9)

As the name implies, this build gives access to both 9-level spells and 9-level maneuvers. There are 2 ways about this. The one is full of cheese, the other is a Wizard.


So, is it possible someone here may reverse-engineer these builds? All we know is, they include the Crusader.

[Xervous]

Lazy DWK answer...

DWK + Loredrake + Spellhoarding + greater rite = 3 free wizard levels, so we only need to get 14 from classes.

7 wizard
1 Crusader
2 JPM
10 Legacy Champion (advancing JPM)

Effective wizard level: 18
Initiator Level: 19

[strider24seven]

I'm pretty sure that build involved Bloodlines at some point... I could very well be wrong though.

[Xervous]

Here's one that gets double nines without bloodlines or legacy champion


1 bard (precocious apprentice and sanctum spell)
9 Crusader
5 Sublime Chord
5 JPM (advancing Sublime Chord)

You get 9ths from Sublime Chord
Initiator Level: 17

[strider24seven]

Here's one that gets double nines without bloodlines or legacy champion


1 bard (precocious apprentice and sanctum spell)
9 Crusader
5 Sublime Chord
5 JPM (advancing Sublime Chord)

You get 9ths from Sublime Chord
Initiator Level: 17

Which also has the benefit of being awesome with Song of the White Raven.

[Nettlekid]

I'm pretty sure that build involved Bloodlines at some point... I could very well be wrong though.

That makes sense. If you took three Bloodline levels right between 1st and 2nd level, used the whole "XP as a river" thing to catch up, and used Precocious Apprentice and Sanctum Spell to get "third level" spells, then you could go something like Bard 1/Initiator 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 2/Jade Phoenix Mage +9/Initiator +2. The Bloodlines are mainly useful in boosting your skill rank limit to Level+6 instead of Level+3, so you can enter Sublime Chord early, and end up with 9th level spells from Sublime Chord and IL 18. It's fairly feat-intensive, at least at the start (you'll want Precocious Apprentice, Sanctum Spell, and probably Able Learner or something for the skill ranks) but all of those can be Chaos Shuffled away once you use your PrCs to meet their own prereqs. This is very cheesy, but it'll serve your purpose, I think?

Also I wonder if you could use Sha'ir to cast both divine and arcane spells, and then take both JPM and RKV to progress it with your initiator level. *shrug*

How do Bloodline Levels count toward IL? I'm tempted to say they don't, because they don't count toward Sorcerer level for spells known or spells per day, for example, but then again they do count toward CL, and although CL isn't what determines spells known and spells per day, IL IS what determines what maneuvers you're capable of knowing. In which case, would they just count once, or many times over? Let's say your build was Factotum 3/Fighter 1/Swordsage 1. Without bloodline levels, your IL is 3. With bloodline levels, would it be 6 (the same 3, plus three bloodline levels adding to either the Swordsage levels making you count as Swordsage 4, or just adding toward the entity that is IL), 5 (the same 3, plus one half of the three bloodline levels, as though they were any non-initiator class), or 9 (Adding those bloodline levels to all your classes, so you count as Factotum 6/Fighter 4/Swordsage 4)? If I had to guess, I would think it would count as 6: Factotum 3/Fighter 1 contributing 2 IL, Swordsage contributing 1 IL, and the Bloodline Levels contributing 3 IL, but I'm not 100% sure.

EDIT: Appropriately, Swordsaged on most points.

[Roguenewb]

This is...tricky. You can't lose more than 3 levels of wizard casting, and you can't take more than 6 levels of non-IL advancing. There are only 8 levels of both in the whole game. That leaves you with 12 to deal with, 6 must advance IL, and 9 CL. Two of the non-IL levels must be JPM 1 and 6. So the stub is X/X/X/JPM 10. This has IL 10, CL 8. The last ten levels can miss 1 level of CL and 6 levels of IL. I think these requirements are mutually exclusive, but I can't be sure.

If you use your missed CL level on Legacy Champion 1, you could get 3 more levels of both. With Legacy 4/JPM 10, you have 6 levels left to spend. You can afford to miss 0 more CL, and 5 more IL. This is literally 1 level off. Damn.

Okay, slightly different tack. Lets say use use JPM5/Legacy Champion 6 as a stub. This has lost 2 CL and 1 IL. You have 9 levels left to play with, and they can miss 1 CL, and 5 IL levels. That means 4 need to advance IL? Damn. IF you take 3 more levels of JPM, you have JPM5/LC 6/JPM 3, you have 6 levels left to play with, 0CL to you can miss, 5 IL you can miss. Once again, a single level more 1 IL than you can spare. I'm not sure wizard can do this.

For the other one, Bard 4/Crusader 2/JPM 4/Sublime Chord 1/JPM 6/XXX seems helpful some how

[Xhosant]

You guys do remember that IL grows by 1 per 2 non-initiator level, right? So 6 wizard levels are +3 IL.

Also, i think (and hope) we're looking at JPM 10, as they are almost equal to gestalt levels for our purposes and, well, blowing oneself up at-will, then being rebuilt is a notable class feature.

From the wording, i would assume the wizard lacks complicated multiclassing.

Also, what is DWK?

Edit: The exact wording was:

Utilize several special options, you can get both 9th level Spells and 9th level maneuvers. This build is dedicated to doing so. There are two versions, one being incredibly cheesy and the other being a Wizard.

[lsfreak]

Also, what is DWK?

Dragonwrought Kobold, 1st-level-only feat from Races of the Dragon that turns you into [Dragon]. Opens all kinds of shenanigans.

[Xhosant]

Sounds like the "incredibly cheesy" way.

Still, we gotta solve the Wizard :/

[Larkas]

Eh, I can't think of a way to do it without DWK or fast progression classes. I guess that doesn't qualify as "not cheesy" or "Wizard", right?

[Xhosant]

What tricks can we think of that can apply OLY to wizards? Wizard-only feats, substitution levels (racial or not), prestige classes that require a wizard or buff only a wizard's spellcaster level? That should narrow it down.

[Larkas]

What tricks can we think of that can apply OLY to wizards? Wizard-only feats, substitution levels (racial or not), prestige classes that require a wizard or buff only a wizard's spellcaster level? That should narrow it down.

The problem is that we can only lose so many ILs before losing 9th level maneuvers. A Wizard 5/ Crusader 1/ JPM 10/ Legacy Champion 4 -ALMOST- does it, but ends up one CL short. Take out any level in any of the latter 3 classes and you don't have enough ILs.

Not even early entry shenanigans can help it. :smallfrown:

EDIT: Have you tried asking Sinfire Titan himself?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maybe it has something to do with adding all prestige class levels to your initiator level, not just those prestige classes mentioned in ToB. In that case, Crusader 1/ Wizard 5/ JPM 10/ Abjurant Champion 4 gets 17/20 spellcasting and 17/20 initiator level.

You can use bloodline levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) to increase your initiator level and max skill ranks without increasing your character level or your ECL. The above build with two bloodline levels will have an initiator level of 17 counting only half the Abjurant Champion levels toward his IL.

[Xhosant]

I have been unable to contact Sinfire, sadly. If anyone succeeds, please go ahead and post it here.

Thing is, Legacy champion and Bloodlines aren't Wizard-only, so why would Sinfire not say "caster of choice"? I'd bet there's a simpler way...

[Larkas]

Eh, if you consider that the other base arcane caster can only lose 2 CL before losing 9ths, not really... I'm starting to suspect that Sinfire merely said "it's a Wizard" to signify that the build is, mostly, just a Wizard. Thing is, Wizard 9/ Crusader 1/ JPM 10 doesn't cut it. :smallfrown:

Biff's assessment of Abjurant Champion might be more on the spot.

[Roguenewb]

You need 14 IL granting levels, and 17 CL granting levels, and I just don't think you can do it. If you take all available levels, which is JPM10/LC4, I think, you still only have 13 IL and 11 CL, in the remaining 6 levels, you've somehow got to pick up 4 IL, AND 6 CL. There....just doesn't seem to be a way to make that work. You pick up 3 IL and 6 CL with straight Wizard, which you may notice is missing an IL. If take Crusader 1/Wizard 5, you are short a CL (and an IL).

This is becoming a Fermat's Last Theorem thing, and I think there may be no answer. Maybe some sort of misreading of the all prestige class option seems best.

[Xhosant]

It seems daunting, but I'd tend to trust Sinfire's evaluation, and her wording implies that the Wizard version lacks cheese. In other words, it's solid, RAI compatible. And what are the "several special options"?

Anyone here in good standing over at the boards? Perhaps you'd jave a better shot at learning Sinfire's method from her.

[Darrin]

The problem is that we can only lose so many ILs before losing 9th level maneuvers. A Wizard 5/ Crusader 1/ JPM 10/ Legacy Champion 4 -ALMOST- does it, but ends up one CL short. Take out any level in any of the latter 3 classes and you don't have enough ILs.

Wizard 9/JPM 5/Legacy Champion 6 might work (17 CL, 17.5 IL), but without a Martial Adept base, it can't refresh its maneuvers.

[Larkas]

Wizard 9/JPM 5/Legacy Champion 6 might work (17 CL, 17.5 IL), but without a Martial Adept base, it can't refresh its maneuvers.

I thought about that too, but aside from not refreshing his maneuvers, it doesn't make much sense to have that build in a Crusader guide, right?

[Xhosant]

I thought about that too, but aside from not refreshing his maneuvers, it doesn't make much sense to have that build in a Crusader guide, right?

Exactly. One of the very few stuff we know is, there's crusader in there...

Also, you need pre-reqs for all lvl9 maneuvers in the form of more maneuvers, and i'm not sure you can reach them without an initiator class. So, IL alone wouldn't cut it.

[Chronos]

That's what Mountain Tombstone Strike is for.

[strider24seven]

Here's my silly attempt:

Black Ethergaunt Crusader 17.
Level-drain yourself in your backstory to drop to 1 Aberration HD permanently, then replace it with a Crusader level. Then level as a crusader. Use LA buyoff to drop to +3 LA.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Here's my silly attempt:

Black Ethergaunt Crusader 17.
Level-drain yourself in your backstory to drop to 1 Aberration HD permanently, then replace it with a Crusader level. Then level as a crusader. Use LA buyoff to drop to +3 LA.

Level draining mandatory racial HD doesn't work, you have to regain those racial HD before you're eligible to gain any class levels.

[Roguenewb]

Wizard 9/JPM 5/Legacy Champion 6 might work (17 CL, 17.5 IL), but without a Martial Adept base, it can't refresh its maneuvers.

Doesn't this only have an IL of 15? 4.5 from wizard, 5 from JPM and 5.5 from Legacy champion advancing JPM.

[Xervous]

When appropriately applied, legacy champion provides 0.5 IL for every level and 1 IL for every level that it boosts the other class by.

[Fax Celestis]

I have been unable to contact Sinfire, sadly. If anyone succeeds, please go ahead and post it here.

Thing is, Legacy champion and Bloodlines aren't Wizard-only, so why would Sinfire not say "caster of choice"? I'd bet there's a simpler way...

Maybe Beholder Mage?

[Seer_of_Heart]

The only wizard 9th level spell method I can think of is being a wizard 1/crusader 2/red mage 5/crusader N/JPM M.(bloodlines to qualify early) You use circle magic to heighten all your spells that you want up to 9th level and then use a scroll of spell engine to convert them into legitimate 9th level spells. Of course there are 2 more prestige classes which can do so but red wizard is only able to be qualified through wizard AFAIK. As long as all of your levels after red mage 5 remain something that advances initiator level you're set.

[Roguenewb]

When appropriately applied, legacy champion provides 0.5 IL for every level and 1 IL for every level that it boosts the other class by.

Oh hell, it does. I think I already solved this problem earlier in the thread then.

My Wizard 5/Crusader 1/JPM 5/Legacy Champion 6/Abjurant Champion 3 build already fills those holes. Only CL 17, IL 2.5 from wizard, 1 from crusader, 5 from JPM, 8 from LC, and 1.5 from champion, which adds to 18 actually, giving a whole spare IL. Don't level it this way, obv, obv.

Wizard 5/Crusader 1/JPM 2/Abjurant Champion 3/Legacy Champion 6/JPM 3 is ideal, I think.

And it has crusader so it refreshes. I believe legacy champion will grant you learned manuevers, no?

Edit: Because of the spare IL, I think you could chop off the last level of legacy champaion and apply to A Champ. Wz5/Cru1/JPM5/LC5/AC4 has 17 IL, CL. It also has a BAB of 15, which is....frustrating, but I don't know how to squeeze one more BAB out of the build. With fractional BAB it has the coveted 16/9s/9s thing going on, but, I can't see another way.

[Xhosant]

Gentlemen, we now have the technology!

Now, who's up for polishing and improving?

[Larkas]

Eh, I still consider that as cheesy, but what the heck, whatever floats your boat! :smallbiggrin:

[Xhosant]

Any class feature is gained via LC, save for base benefits. The caster/initiator level increase is a class feature. So i'd say it is solid, by virtue of spellcaster levels also progressing with CL

[Larkas]

Any class feature is gained via LC, save for base benefits. The caster/initiator level increase is a class feature. So i'd say it is solid, by virtue of spellcaster levels also progressing with CL

It's just a matter of opinion. If you consider that lactose-free, that's great! It gives me headaches, though. :smallwink:

[Xhosant]

We'll only know for sure from Sinfire...

+1 for the lactose though.

[Roguenewb]

It's a dumb interaction, BUT, one has to decide whether you are using cheese to fix a mistake on the developer's part or not. For example, by the end of 3.5, it was not too hard, not free but not too hard, to get double 9s. If you believe that hybrids should be able to hit double 9s, then legacy champion is just fixing some bad math on the part of the writers who made it impossible to double up on 9th initiator and 9th spells. If, you're not like me, and believe that double 9ths is an inherently *cheesy* goal, one that should only be able to work in certain limited circumstances, then legacy champion is just a rules exploit for high system mastery that lets you sneak off.


Double 9s is required for true "theurgeness" to exist. They screwed the math by a tiny bit and missed the ability to grab 9o9s, so we fixed it.

[Larkas]

I'd rather houserule that JPM only loses one caster level at 1st level and be done with it.

Then again, I'm usually on the darker side of the DM screen.

[A_S]

This guy can use Versatile Spellcaster to burn 8th level Sublime Chord spell slots to fuel Beguiler 9th's. Gets 1 9th level maneuver, plus a Fighter bonus feat that can be spent on Martial Study for a second one. Doesn't rely on Legacy Champion cheese, though some may consider this use of Versatile Spellcaster just as cheesy.

1 - Beguiler 1 - Versatile Spellcaster, Able Learner
2 - Bard 1
3 - Crusader 1
4 - Crusader 2
5 - Crusader 3
6 - Crusader 4
7 - JPM 1
8 - JPM 2
9 - JPM 3
10 - JPM 4
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - JPM 5
13 - JPM 6
14 - JPM 7
15 - JPM 8
16 - JPM 9
17 - JPM 10
18 - Beguiler 2
19 - Crusader 5
20 - Fighter 1
If JPM just got a friggin' maneuver known at 10th level, this would be a LOT easier.

[Xervous]

Wizard 5/Crusader 1/JPM 5/Legacy Champion 6/Abjurant Champion 3

effective wizard level = 16

5 wizard + 8 JPM + 3 Abj Ch = 16

[Roguenewb]

effective wizard level = 16

5 wizard + 8 JPM + 3 Abj Ch = 16

Does legacy champion count as the actual 6th level of JPM? Hmm. Well, with the spare level of IL, you can just trade crusader for wizard, but then you're back to not having a refresh mechanic.

[Xhosant]

So did we just lose the technology?

[relytdan]

this little line in the legacy champion - If you had more than one class before becoming a legacy champion, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining class abilities.

so if we choose wizard for the LC- while yes it advances the wizards "existing class features" in this case adding 4 levels of wizard and +2 IL + the 2.5 IL of the LC itself - still runs short of the IL 17

wizard 5= 2.5 (4.5) IL, crusader 1= 1 IL, AC 4= 2 IL, LC 5= 2.5 IL JPM 5= 5 IL
unless I am missing something this is 15 IL, and CL 17...

[dysprosium]

Unless my maths is off, I think I got it!

Build stub Wizard 8/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 5/Legacy Champion 6

but it is the order that is important:
{table=head]Level|Class|IL|CL
1|Wizard 1|0.5|Wiz 1
2|Wizard 2|1.0|Wiz 2
3|Wizard 3|1.5|Wiz 3
4|Wizard 4|2.0|Wiz 4
5|Wizard 5|2.5|Wiz 5
6|Wizard 6|3.0|Wiz 6
7|Wizard 7|3.5|Wiz 7
8|Wizard 8|4.0|Wiz 8
9|Crusader 1|5.0|Wiz 8
10|JPM 1|6.0|Wiz 8
11|JPM 2|7.0|Wiz 9
12|JPM 3|8.0|Wiz 10
13|LC 1|8.5|Wiz 10
14|LC 2|10.0|Wiz 11
15|LC 3|11.5|Wiz 12
16|LC 4|13.0|Wiz 13
17|LC 5|14.5|Wiz 14
18|LC 6|16.0|Wiz 15
19|JPM 4|17.0|Wiz 16
20|JPM 5|18.0|Wiz 17[/table]

Jade Phoenix Mage 1 does not advance casting
Jade Phoenix Mage 6 does not advance casting (so it is out)
Legacy Champion 1 does not advance existing class features (but still counts as a non initiator level so +0.5 IL)
Legacy Champion 7 does not advance existing class features (so it is out)

We use the Legacy Champion to advance Jade Phoenix Mage's level 3 class features.
We also use the reading that initiator level is a class feature so 1.5 IL per Legacy Champion level that advances class features.

So for Level 20 we have an IL of 18 and a CL of 17

[strider24seven]

Level draining mandatory racial HD doesn't work, you have to regain those racial HD before you're eligible to gain any class levels.
#Citation Needed
Level Loss only indicates that you lose a level, not that you have to regain whatever levels that you had before.

[Chronos]

We use the Legacy Champion to advance Jade Phoenix Mage's level 3 class features.
Advancing the level 3 class features means that you get the level 4 class features, then the level 5 class features, and so on. You can't pick the same level repeatedly.

[mattie_p]

Advancing the level 3 class features means that you get the level 4 class features, then the level 5 class features, and so on. You can't pick the same level repeatedly.

Correct.

Maybe some alternative spell source/southern magician/divine magician shenanigans combined with RKV? away from books, so not sure how that would work or if it would.

[dysprosium]

I guess it was too good to be true. :smallfrown:

Sorry about that.

Carry on gentlemen.

[Roguenewb]

I guess it was too good to be true. :smallfrown:

Sorry about that.

Carry on gentlemen.

It's the same mistake I made. Legacy Champion really has *two* caster loses. First when it starts, and then when it advances to a dead level of JPM.

[Xhosant]

On the downside, compilations i found on wizard-only feats, wizard bloodlines, or substitutions came off null.

On the upside, PMd sinfire, so we may get this dealt with.

Can anyone think of why the lactose-free version is wizard-only? What do they have to offer over the sorcerer, for example?

[Chronos]

Wizard over sorcerer is easy: Wizards get their nines at 17, while sorcerers get them at 18, so you save one level that way. You could probably still use wu jen, but then, wu jen are mostly just a wizard variant.

I think it's possible that the "And the other, well, it's a wizard" might have been the build with no Crusader at all, and the "well, it's a wizard" might have been the start of an acknowledgement that it didn't belong in a crusader guide.

[Roguenewb]

I think it's possible that the "And the other, well, it's a wizard" might have been the build with no Crusader at all, and the "well, it's a wizard" might have been the start of an acknowledgement that it didn't belong in a crusader guide.

Valid, valid point.

[strider24seven]

Wizard>Sorcerer unless Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobolds or Phaerimm are allowed, because of earlier spell access.

[relytdan]

well this might work ...
class IL CL
Wizard 1 0.5 Wiz 1
Wizard 2 1.0 Wiz 2
Wizard 3 1.5 Wiz 3
Wizard 4 2.0 Wiz 4

mage of the Arcane Order 1 2.5 wiz 5
MotAO 2 3 wiz 6
MotAO 3 3.5 wiz 7
MotAO 4 4 wiz 8

9th lvl Practiced Spellcaster feat, caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4

Swordsage 1 5 Wiz 8(12)
Crusader 1 6 Wiz 8(12)
Warblade 1 7 Wiz 8(12)

LC 1 7.5 Wiz 8(12)
LC 2 9 Wiz 8(12)
LC 3 10.5 Wiz 8(12)
LC 4 12 Wiz 8(12)

JPM 1 13 Wiz 9(13)
JPM 2 14 Wiz 10(14)
JPM 3 15 Wiz 11(15)
JPM 4 16 Wiz 12(16)
JPM 5 17 Wiz 13(17)

[dysprosium]

Except that's not how Practiced Spellcaster works:

This feat does not affect your spells per day or spells known. It increases your caster level only, which would help you penetrate spell resistance and increase the duration and other effects of your spells.

So using that feat to get to CL 17 does not mean we get 9th level spells.

[relytdan]

ug yup correct.. back to drawing board

[PaintByBlood]

Possibly worth noting, though, that that trick could be used on a Psion to manifest powers that are considered the equivalent of 9th level spells in some numeric respects. You still wouldn't get more powers known, more power points, or actual powers above 7th level, but you could still throw down 17d6+17 damage Energy Missiles.
Hardly the same as 9th level spell or power access, of course.

[relytdan]

minor rework and this looks like a winner
Class IL CL
Wizard 1 .5 1
Wizard 2 1 2
Wizard 3 1.5 3
Wizard 4 2 4
Wizard 5 2.5 5

Incantatrix 1 3 6 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
Incantatrix 2 3.5 7 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
Incantatrix 3 4 8 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
Incantatrix 4 4.5 9 +1 level arcane spellcasting class

Crusader 1 5.5 9

JPM 1 6.5 10 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
JPM 2 7.5 11 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
JPM 3 8.5 12 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
JPM 4 9.5 13 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
JPM 5 10.5 14 +1 level arcane spellcasting class

Leg Champ 1 11 14 -
Leg Champ 2 12.5 14 -advance JPM
Leg Champ 3 14 15 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
Leg Champ 4 15.5 16 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
Leg Champ 5 17 17 +1 level arcane spellcasting class

[Xhosant]

By the way, I (think i) got confirmation that LC is used, so that's something.

Also, I personally value JPM 10 builds highly for all the incidental awesome stuff, so the higher the levels there the better in my book.

[A_S]

This guy can use Versatile Spellcaster to burn 8th level Sublime Chord spell slots to fuel Beguiler 9th's. Gets 1 9th level maneuver, plus a Fighter bonus feat that can be spent on Martial Study for a second one. Doesn't rely on Legacy Champion cheese, though some may consider this use of Versatile Spellcaster just as cheesy.

1 - Beguiler 1 - Versatile Spellcaster, Able Learner
2 - Bard 1
3 - Crusader 1
4 - Crusader 2
5 - Crusader 3
6 - Crusader 4
7 - JPM 1
8 - JPM 2
9 - JPM 3
10 - JPM 4
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - JPM 5
13 - JPM 6
14 - JPM 7
15 - JPM 8
16 - JPM 9
17 - JPM 10
18 - Beguiler 2
19 - Crusader 5
20 - Fighter 1
If JPM just got a friggin' maneuver known at 10th level, this would be a LOT easier.
Or, if you prefer DCFS cheese, you can go:

1 - Beguiler 1 - Versatile Spellcaster, Able Learner
2 - Bard 1
3 - Crusader 1
4 - Crusader 2
5 - Crusader 3
6 - Crusader 4
7 - JPM 1
8 - JPM 2
9 - JPM 3
10 - JPM 4
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - JPM 5 - Combat Casting
13 - Abjurant Champion 1
14 - Abjurant Champion 2
15 - Abjurant Champino 3
16 - JPM 6
17 - JPM 7
18 - JPM 8
19 - JPM 9
20 - JPM 10
...which gets you IL 17 and non-cheesy 9th level spells at level 20. JPM doesn't learn a maneuver at that level, but you can DCFS up to three of your feats into Martial Study, which can be used to learn level 9 maneuvers.

This whole thing seems to be an exercise in "which cheese would you like to use?"

[Larkas]

minor rework and this looks like a winner
Class IL CL
Wizard 1 .5 1
Wizard 2 1 2
Wizard 3 1.5 3
Wizard 4 2 4
Wizard 5 2.5 5

Incantatrix 1 3 6 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
Incantatrix 2 3.5 7 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
Incantatrix 3 4 8 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
Incantatrix 4 4.5 9 +1 level arcane spellcasting class

Crusader 1 5.5 9

JPM 1 6.5 10 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
JPM 2 7.5 11 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
JPM 3 8.5 12 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
JPM 4 9.5 13 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
JPM 5 10.5 14 +1 level arcane spellcasting class

Leg Champ 1 11 14 -
Leg Champ 2 12.5 14 -advance JPM
Leg Champ 3 14 15 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
Leg Champ 4 15.5 16 +1 level arcane spellcasting class
Leg Champ 5 17 17 +1 level arcane spellcasting class

Doesn't work. You forgot that JPM loses a caster level at 1st (and 6th) level.


This whole thing seems to be an exercise in "which cheese would you like to use?"

Pretty much, it seems. :smallfrown:

[Chronos]

Yeah, it really says something when the least cheesy option is to use another prestige class to advance Sublime Chord.