A New Circle of Eight

[Roguenewb]

So, as some of you may know, early in the life of the Grayhawk setting, the Circle of Eight became prominent to the meta-plot and setting. These were eight powerful wizards based off people that Gary Gygax had played with while developing Dungeons and Dragons.

I'm developing a new setting for an upcoming campaign, and I decided that I want one nation to demonstrate the classic fantasy trope of "giving all the power to the best people isn't the best idea". In order to do this, I plan on creating a new Circle of Eight, and placing them in charge. My idea was this: What if I populated the Circle with 8 classic, high powered builds from Char-Op land. Nothing Pun-Pun-esque, because then they literally become plot points, but characters powerful enough to intimidate almost any player and stand as exemplars of obtainable power.

Instead othe 8 wizards from the original, I thought I'd try to diversify it up and make it 3 arcane casters, 3 divine casters, and 2 martial/less-full-castery.

Here's what I've got so far:
Arcane:
1.) Classic Batman/God Wizard. Focused Conjurer 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 (maybe IotSV 5?) An absolute classic of the genres, both Char-Op and high fantasy. Highly prepared, almost impossible to out-fox/destroy.
2.) Killer Gnome. Illusionist 3/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcrafter 8/Shadowcraft Mage 5. Most of the tricks, lobbing shadow miracles all over the place.
3.) Mailmain. Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 10/Arcane Devotee 2/Marshal/Spellsword1. Metamagic powered mega-direct damage dealer.

Divine:
1.) Herald of Dreams (my name). Druid 10/Planar Shepherd (Dal Quor) 10. Deliciously simple, powerful thing.
2.) Twice Betrayer of Shar. Cleric 3/Human Paragon 3/Shadow Adept 1/Ruathar 3/Contemplative 6/Divine Disciple 4. Mega persistomancer.
3.) ????

Other:
1.)Ubercharger. Barbarian 4/Fighter 2/Frenzied Berserker 10/XXXX 4. It slices it dices, it minces the foe. Hard.
2.) ???? Some sort of mega tripper? A powerful psionic or binder build?

So, as you can guess, my players will likely try to kill these people at some point, since they are players. As a result I'm definitely going for huge power while still, in theory at least, having counters exist and being mortal.

Anybody have any corrections/thoughts/suggestions?

Thanks Playground

[Psyren]

I'm honestly not sure what good an Ubercharger or any other pure martial build will do in that kind of company. Either the players stop them from doing their thing and they become totally useless, or they get to do their thing and the PCs are one-shot. There isn't really any middle ground there for an interesting battle.

Suggestions for your third divine guy (too lazy to do actual breakpoints for most of these):

1) Apostolate: Cloistered Cleric/Binder/Anima Priest/Tenebrous Apostate
2) Ur-Lock: Binder/Warlock/Ur-Priest/Eldritch Disciple/Hellfire Warlock
3) Blade of Heaven: Favored Soul/Dragonslayer/Sacred Exorcist/Prestige Paladin/Fist of Raziel
4) Cosmic Mind: Ardent 10 (DI, MS)/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8

[mabriss lethe]

For your martial characters maybe a Jade Phoenix Mage and a Ruby Knight Vindicator. As for your 3rd Divine caster, what about just a straight 20 levels of archivist?

[XmonkTad]

If we're talking about the ultra high op builds becoming the new 8, I agree that martial classes should be out. I mean, the ubercharger gets foiled by a bag of marbles. The batman wizard is only foiled by pun-pun, the omnisifyer, or the save-game trick.

Where is the Incarnum love? The chaingun porcupine can do damage like an ubercharger, at range, and with a standard action. What about an artificer/truenamer that rebuilds shattered skull talismans?

I think the idea is neat, but what kind of play will it see? No player really wants to be on the recipient end of a batman wizard. OTOH, can't the wizard solve 99% of the pcs problems within 3 seconds?

[Roguenewb]

If we're talking about the ultra high op builds becoming the new 8, I agree that martial classes should be out. I mean, the ubercharger gets foiled by a bag of marbles. The batman wizard is only foiled by pun-pun, the omnisifyer, or the save-game trick.

Where is the Incarnum love? The chaingun porcupine can do damage like an ubercharger, at range, and with a standard action. What about an artificer/truenamer that rebuilds shattered skull talismans?

I think the idea is neat, but what kind of play will it see? No player really wants to be on the recipient end of a batman wizard. OTOH, can't the wizard solve 99% of the pcs problems within 3 seconds?

I appreciate that full martial characters are useless at this OP level. I guess I just like symmetry. My players have strong understanding of OP, but rarely use it all (the perfect scenario if you ask me :smallsmile: ). Theoretically they should never fight or more than barely interact with the Circle, but the players will be aware of them, and it should add some versimillitude to the setting, Tippy-verse style

[Xervous]

Question, why stay with the number 8? It doesn't show much practicality in terms of decision making given that it is even.

[SciChronic]

You should add a psion into the circle. Also some kind of paragon of the cloak and dagger (factotum maybe?) who is an unlisted 9th member of the circle, and leads a network of spies and informants. though the last bit isnt necessary.

[Roguenewb]

Question, why stay with the number 8? It doesn't show much practicality in terms of decision making given that it is even.

Because Gary Gygax used it in the early greyhawk, and my players know this.

I think Ur-Lock is going to be my last divine caster, and that the divine blade might be my warrior, and the last, maybe some sort of skill-based build. I'm trying to find a really nasty skill thing, it'll probably have a bunch of casting.

[Silva Stormrage]

I vote for an Erudite Thrallherd as a psionic build. Incredibly powerful and pretty flavorful too if you build it right.

[Virdish]

If your set on doing a marshal character why not the 1d2 Crusader?

[mregecko]

Third divine slot as the Rainbow Warsnake?

Warmage 1 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Incantatrix 3 / War Weaver 5 / Archmage 1

Requires some early entry shenanigans, but nothing too crazy.

You could also get rid of Incantatrix and extend War Weaver with Legacy Champion, to weave higher level spells.

-- Mr

[Rebel7284]

There is always bard-sublime chord as an interesting caster. :)

Also, telflamar shadowlord can do melee quite well. I like doing Ardent 8/Swordsage 1/Telflamar Shadowlord 4/Ardent 2 for twinned repeating full attacks. :)

Add power link shards to taste.

[Maginomicon]

I vote for an Erudite Thrallherd as a psionic build. Incredibly powerful and pretty flavorful too if you build it right.

A Spell-to-Power Erudite would be fitting, but you'd have to house-rule the unwritten limiter for what counts as a "unique power". I have such a house rule in my games (if you're interested) that covers it very succinctly.

Really, you should also include meldshapers.

[Silva Stormrage]

A Spell-to-Power Erudite would be fitting, but you'd have to house-rule the unwritten limiter for what counts as a "unique power". I have such a house rule in my games (if you're interested) that covers it very succinctly.

Really, you should also include meldshapers.

Wait why would you need to house rule the unique power limiter :smallconfused:. You mean to avoid mental pinnacle abuse and things like that?

[Maginomicon]

Wait why would you need to house rule the unique power limiter :smallconfused:. You mean to avoid mental pinnacle abuse and things like that?

The text for erudite isn't clear on what it means by "unique". For example, if you're a multiclass erudite/wilder and you have an erudite power as a wilder as well, and you manifest it, do you have to specify that it's being manifested as a wilder in order for it to not count against your "unique powers per day limit"? It's ambiguous. I have a house rule that clarifies exactly what "unique" means in that context.

(Let's try to stay on-topic)

[Roguenewb]

There are some really great suggestions in this thread. Now I have to come up with characterizations and logical backstories for these dudes.

[Eurus]

Rainbow Warsnake is a great idea for the third caster, but Ur-Lock is also pretty great. Hmm. Sure you don't just wanna do four divine and four arcane?

[Roguenewb]

Rainbow Warsnake is a great idea for the third caster, but Ur-Lock is also pretty great. Hmm. Sure you don't just wanna do four divine and four arcane?

Not gonna lie, very tempting.

[Than]

Multi-class Erudite has it's own power limiter. If you take as many levels in a psionic class that isn't Erudite you lose the ability add powers to your list from another mind or power stone. You still get the 2 automatic at level up. Complete Psionic 154.

So Erudite 3 / Wilder 3 can't get more powers. My DMs have always treated PrCs that progress Erudite manifesting as exempt from that rule.

For your undecided non-arcane/divine may I suggest Erudite 6/Mindbender 1/Subverted Psion 13? Requires non-good alignment and the use of Taint rules found in Heroes of Horror.

As a final note I'll add my bit on Unique Powers per Day. The text states you have X number of unique power of each level per day according to class level. The table defines X.

[Roguenewb]

New list:

Arcane:
Batman
Killer Gnome
The Mailman

Divine:
The Twice Betrayer
Planar Shepherd of Dreams
Ur-Lock

Wierd:
Rainbow Warsnake
Cloistered Cleric/Binder/Anima Priest/Tenebrous Apostate


And they have a new secret enemy:
Stp-Erudite 5/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge7/Subverted Psion 6 with maximum depravity and corruption giving a huge number of PP per day.

I suspect these characters will be largely immune to player intervention, but now, my DM senses are tingling, and I suuuuuper hope I get to fight my players with them =)

Now, how to convince my players they can take the New Circle on!

[SciChronic]

that's just kind of asking for a TPK, which you shouldn't want as a DM. I still support having some non-caster classes in the mix.

[Roguenewb]

that's just kind of asking for a TPK, which you shouldn't want as a DM. I still support having some non-caster classes in the mix.

Going up against Elminster is also a TPK. And I think they'd be trying as a midhigh OP party to kill one, in six-on-one combat.

[Beleron]

What's the general alignment for the group?

[Menzath]

I think an Incarnum class would be a neat mix in there. Maybe the skill or grapple Totemist, maybe the Crazy combat Incarnate.

Although I personally like the totemist chain gun, it is a bit gimmicky though.

Maybe a binder would fill the "skill" role in Other better, not sure. Both have neat things they can do, Incarnum seems to make up the combat gap easier though.

[Eurus]

I like it. The thing about skill-based or martial-based builds is that they'll just be obsoleted by the casters. The casters can do all of the skills and utility, and they can do as much melee as they feel like. For a nasty circle of 8, this seems like a good spread. Now you just need to give them personalities and character. :smallamused:

[Fouredged Sword]

I think a psion metamind abusing the hypercontiousness power that extends all duration for one round for a PP cost, and the metamind ability to gain unlimited PP for a duration. Mix the two and you have literally unlimited PP for as long as you spend swift actions.

The abuse hustle and synchronicity for unlimited actions.

You get a psion who walks 1000 miles in one round not by going fast, but by bending time and space into a donut to get 100000 move actions during those 6 seconds.

[Menzath]

True casters do tend to make mundane obsolete, and to me the circle of eight(in any time/game/etc) the seats have always been filled by casters of some sort, and for story/RP makes casters seem even more epiks.

[Segev]

o/~ And I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more! o/~

[Fouredged Sword]

That, and once you set up the infinite duration effect, you can then pile on any spell or effect you wish and have it last forever. Want to have divine power? Buy a scroll and read it once. Your loop that sustains the infinite PP will keep it going forever as well.

[Roguenewb]

That, and once you set up the infinite duration effect, you can then pile on any spell or effect you wish and have it last forever. Want to have divine power? Buy a scroll and read it once. Your loop that sustains the infinite PP will keep it going forever as well.

If you can get 9th level powers known, while also grabbing the metamind capstone, you can do this is normal 3.5 D&D. Just use your standard action every turn to manifest a free timeless body, then shoot off quickened or schismed/fissioned actions to actually get something done.

The party's general alignment is somewhere on the Chaotic side of good, and the very idea of a Circle of Eight tends towards lawful, but the "let the campaign actually work" part of my DM brain hopes they never seek conflict.

[Fouredged Sword]

Not sure that works, but the trick does turn that into an all the time power, making you practically invulnerable.

[Roguenewb]

Which is a noble goal.

[Than]

And they have a new secret enemy:
Stp-Erudite 5/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge7/Subverted Psion 6 with maximum depravity and corruption giving a huge number of PP per day.


That sounds like it'd be fun to play if one could get the base fort save required for Ur-Priest that early. I'll definitely keep the build in mind if ever I need a super-caster NPC villain.

[Beleron]

The party's general alignment is somewhere on the Chaotic side of good, and the very idea of a Circle of Eight tends towards lawful, but the "let the campaign actually work" part of my DM brain hopes they never seek conflict.

Which would seem to make an ur-priest inappropriate, unless you allow them to be non-evil.

[Vaz]

Changeling Wu Jen 5/incantatrix 10/Recaster 2/Archmage 2

Get Revivify on your spell list as a Recaster, and Miracle via Arcane Disciple.

Cast Body Outside Body, use Miracle and Wish as the SLA's which can be used by clones, who then persist and extend the effects they generate (including Body Outside Body via Wish), including Transcend Mortality, which is then fixed by a Contingent Revivify.

Even spells normally not able to be persisted can be persisted that way without the whole
Ocular spell thing.