Practiced Spell caster and Wild Mage

[Yogibear41]

Does taking practiced spell caster with levels of wild mage basically get rid of the negative to this class, and more or less just give you +1d6 caster level on any given spell?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This was addressed in the official FAQ, but here's a TL;DR:
You can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order. Wild Magic is an entire effect, so the -3 and +1d6 have to be applied at the same time. Practiced Spellcaster can be applied either before or after Wild Magic, but not in the middle of it.

Full FAQ response (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a):

How does Practiced Spellcaster interact with the wild
magic class feature of the wild mage (from CAr)?
The –3 penalty and +1d6 bonus to the wild mage’s caster
level are applied as a single step in the process of determining
the wild mage’s caster level. Since Practiced Spellcaster’s
bonus is always applied when it is most beneficial to the
character (see previous answer), a wild mage with Practiced
Spellcaster would typically apply the wild magic class feature
first (subtracting 3 and adding 1d6 to her caster level) and then
add the Practiced Spellcaster benefit, up to a maximum value
equal to her character level.
For example, if a 5th-level wizard/4th-level wild mage with
Practiced Spellcaster rolled a 1 on the 1d6 bonus to her caster
level, her caster level for that spell would be 9th (base 9th, –3
from wild magic penalty, +1 from wild magic bonus, +4 from
Practiced Spellcaster up to a maximum equal to her character
level). If she rolled a 6, her caster level would be 12th (base
9th, –3 from wild magic penalty, +6 from wild magic bonus;
the Practiced Spellcaster bonus would not apply since it would
increase her caster level above her character level).
On the other hand, imagine a wild mage whose caster level
(before applying the effects of the wild magic class feature) is
less than her character level, such as a wild mage with levels of
rogue or other non-spellcasting class. She might well choose to
apply the Practiced Spellcaster bonus first, before applying the
wild magic modifiers. A rogue 4/wizard 5/wild mage 4 would
have a base caster level of 9th before any other modifiers are
applied. Adding Practiced Spellcaster’s bonus would increase
this to 13th, at which point the penalty and bonus from wild
magic would be applied. The Sage recommends that players
averse to frequently recalculating caster level avoid playing a
character with this combination, as it is likely to cause
headaches.

[Yogibear41]

Interesting, thanks

[Rubik]

Except the FAQ ignores RAW. The -3 is present all the time, which can be negated by Practiced Manifester. The +1d6 happens when casting, meaning it's added on top of the already present -3 (which, again, is negated by Practiced Manifester).

It works the way you surmised, according to the rules.

[Beleron]

Well, now I have a good reason not to play rogue 4/wizard 5/wild mage 4...

[Spuddles]

AFAIK, there's no RAW on the order in which bonuses are applied. The commonly held belief that you apply bonuses in the most beneficial order is from a non-RAW source: the FAQ. If the FAQ is a good enough source for rules, then for the sake of consistency, you should probably not just pick your favorite rules for powergaming. That's just munchkinry.

[Segev]

AFAIK, there's no RAW on the order in which bonuses are applied. The commonly held belief that you apply bonuses in the most beneficial order is from a non-RAW source: the FAQ. If the FAQ is a good enough source for rules, then for the sake of consistency, you should probably not just pick your favorite rules for powergaming. That's just munchkinry.

By the same token, however, if there are no RAW on the order of application, then one need not rely on the FAQ to provide a specific order. One needs to determine for oneself (or ask one's DM) how to apply them.

In this case, there's no unclarity, unless you're going to claim that Arcanist's Gloves are useless to people who have Practiced Spellcaster and are actually using it.

i.e., Practiced Spellcaster raises your CL by 4 to a maximum of your HD. Wild Mage reduces you by 3 CL. Practiced Spellcaster thus raises you back up to your HD as your CL. Wild Mage then also adds 1d6 to your CL when you cast a spell. This is added to your fixed CL.

By the same token, a Wizard 4/Fighter 4 with Arcanist's Gloves and Practiced Spellcaster would have a CL of 9.

[Spuddles]

I'm just pointing out that there is no RAW answer to this (rules compendium not withstanding), and that any appeal to "RAW" is actually an appeal to a non-RAW authority- the FAQ. So it's either play by the FAQ or realize that it's grey territory, admit you're using houserules, and dont pretend your conclusions have any special authorty beyond your game.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Except the FAQ ignores RAW. The -3 is present all the time, which can be negated by Practiced Manifester. The +1d6 happens when casting, meaning it's added on top of the already present -3 (which, again, is negated by Practiced Manifester).

It works the way you surmised, according to the rules.

Citation needed. The only RAW I see is that Wild Magic is a single effect which grants both a -3 caster level all the time, and a +1d6 caster level when casting. Furthermore:

"She reduces her caster level by 3 for all spells she casts from now on. However, every time she casts a spell, her use of wild magic adds 1d6 to her adjusted caster level."

You get a -3 caster level, which is your adjusted caster level for purposes of the above RAW. The +1d6 is added to that adjusted caster level, before any other effects (i.e. Practiced Spellcaster) can be shoved in between.


AFAIK, there's no RAW on the order in which bonuses are applied. The commonly held belief that you apply bonuses in the most beneficial order is from a non-RAW source: the FAQ. If the FAQ is a good enough source for rules, then for the sake of consistency, you should probably not just pick your favorite rules for powergaming. That's just munchkinry.

You get to apply effects in the most beneficial order, not bonuses. The FAQ says nothing about arranging bonuses, only effects. Wild Magic is a single effect, so the individual bonuses it grants cannot be separated or applied at different times.

[Rubik]

Citation needed. The only RAW I see is that Wild Magic is a single effect which grants both a -3 caster level all the time, and a +1d6 caster level when casting. Furthermore:

"She reduces her caster level by 3 for all spells she casts from now on. However, every time she casts a spell, her use of wild magic adds 1d6 to her adjusted caster level."

You get a -3 caster level, which is your adjusted caster level for purposes of the above RAW. The +1d6 is added to that adjusted caster level, before any other effects (i.e. Practiced Spellcaster) can be shoved in between.The text of the wild mage's Wild Magic ability is as follows:


Wild Magic: A wild mage casts spells differently from any other arcane spellcaster. She reduces her caster level by 3 for all spells she casts from now on. However, every time she casts a spell, her use of wild magic adds 1d6 to her adjusted caster level. For example, an 8th-level sorcerer/1st-level wild mage has a base caster level of 6th, not 9th, but her actual caster level varies from 7th to 12th for every spell she casts. Caster level affects all level-based variables of a spell, including spell penetration checks.The class ability reduces your caster level by 3, which Practiced Spellcaster pulls back up to 0, as per Practiced Spellcaster, which explicitly increases your CL until it reaches your HD (or by 4, whichever comes first). The CL bonus doesn't kick in until you cast a spell, whereupon you receive the requisite +1d6 bonus.

It's all there in the text. I'm honestly not sure how else you could read it.

[georgie_leech]

The class ability reduces your caster level by 3, which Practiced Spellcaster pulls back up to 0, as per Practiced Spellcaster, which explicitly increases your CL until it reaches your HD (or by 4, whichever comes first). The CL bonus doesn't kick in until you cast a spell, whereupon you receive the requisite +1d6 bonus.

It's all there in the text. I'm honestly not sure how else you could read it.

No, it only reduces it for spells she casts.


Wild Magic: A wild mage casts spells differently from any other arcane spellcaster. She reduces her caster level by 3 for all spells she casts from now on.

Wild magic is a single effect that changes the caster level by (-3)+(1d6) for every spell, not your overall CL. Either it all applies, or none of it does. You can't break up the bonus/penalty like that.

[Psyren]

The FAQ is as close as we're going to get to an authoritative answer on this, and the answer is perfectly reasonable so I see no reason not to go with it.

[Pickford]

AFAIK, there's no RAW on the order in which bonuses are applied. The commonly held belief that you apply bonuses in the most beneficial order is from a non-RAW source: the FAQ. If the FAQ is a good enough source for rules, then for the sake of consistency, you should probably not just pick your favorite rules for powergaming. That's just munchkinry.

The FAQ is by definition RAW. Unless you are using RAW to mean Rules As Whims.

edit:

"Official D&D Game Rule FAQ" - published by WoTC, an official game product.

RAW: Rules as written in the D&D game refers to the rules that WoTC publishes. In a wider sense it means the rules of the game being played. Rules as written is used to distinguish these from both house rules and what may have been intended that the rules were to be, such as a reference in a blurb to an ability that the class in question does not actually get or that is being used incorrectly. It is important to note that often the rules as written are open to interpretation as there may be multiple viewpoints on what the RAW is.

[georgie_leech]

The FAQ is by definition RAW. Unless you are using RAW to mean Rules As Whims.

I don't think you've ever convinced anyone of that position, and I doubt this is the place to hash it out again. Most people here disagree with FAQ being RAW as it tends to be inconsistent and doesn't always follow actual RAW. If you really want to debate that, start another thread before this one gets derailed.

I believe it is correct in this circumstance, but that doesn't make it RAW any more than the posts in this thread are.

[Segev]

From a game balance standpoint, I actually have little problem with the interpretation that Practiced Spellcaster makes Wild Mage effectively just give +1d6 CL. I wouldn't allow it in every game, but whether I allowed it or not would largely depend on the rest of the party, their savvy, and how the party was balanced. i.e. if the game was turning out "low-op," I would suggest alternatives to any player who wanted to try it. If it was more energetically optimized by the party, though, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

It's only a moderate level of optimization, honestly. Nothing overwhelming.

[Spuddles]

From a game balance standpoint, I actually have little problem with the interpretation that Practiced Spellcaster makes Wild Mage effectively just give +1d6 CL. I wouldn't allow it in every game, but whether I allowed it or not would largely depend on the rest of the party, their savvy, and how the party was balanced. i.e. if the game was turning out "low-op," I would suggest alternatives to any player who wanted to try it. If it was more energetically optimized by the party, though, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

It's only a moderate level of optimization, honestly. Nothing overwhelming.

It's not that terrible, given that it takes what, two or three feats and a level to get? The biggest benefits from increased CL are usually blasting and buffing, which I find are usually pretty party friendly.