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View Full Version : Canonicity vs. Fun: What am I doing wrong?!



Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-19, 06:26 PM
As of late I've been finding myself becoming frustrated in keeping up with the metaplot of the Golarion setting.

I just feel flustered when the books I buy, or people on the boards, reference something that I'm unfamiliar with. Like the Hao Jin Tapestry in the Pathfinder Society Primer, which I assume was the prize in the Ruby Phoenix Tournament module as said tournament is mentioned in the Primer, or learning that Krune was killed by Pathfinders in Organized play secondhand.

I feel like events like that MATTER to the metaplot, and if I were to introduce some great sweeping event that changes things (for instance, I've been trying to run a Council of Thieves game for over a year now, and even though we've never gotten to the end, almost all the players have stated their intention to take the fight right to House Thrune. What if later something comes down the line that I want to run that requires an intact Cheliax? And how do I run such a civil war, given House Thrune was able to curb-stomp an army of copper dragons that attacked it with the intention of taking them down (see Dragons Revisited)? It would seem if the PCs tried to fight House Thrune, the rebellion would be put down in a matter of days.). Or what's been hinted at on the boards, that upcoming Organized Play events will deal with the stagnation that's been Taldor's schtick from the beginning. What if I set events in Taldor without knowing what's going on there?

Prince of Wolves possible spoilers (the novel's been out for a while, but I don't know how many people have read it, I certainly haven't):
According to what little information I've gleaned, it's revealed that Radovan, Count Jeggare's tiefling bodyguard is actually a Virholt, making him a possible claimant for the throne of Ustalav. I now feel like the possibility of someone wanting to play a scion of the Virholt line, like hinted at in Rule of Fear, is impossible because of what's been revealed. How can there be two "last scions" of the family line? And to those who say, "It's your setting, Radovan doesn't have to exist in it," I understand your argument, but please understand where I'm coming from. I have a thing about canon. I don't like to contradict it. So if canon says one thing and the player says another, the canon is what wins, if I am GM. It's better writing than any of the crap I could produce, that's why I use Adventure Paths in the first place.

I try to run my stuff as close to canon as possible, but I find myself frustrated by the fact that my knowledge is, quite simply, limited. I don't have all the books, I don't have that kind of disposable income, and more stuff keeps coming out so I feel like I'll never be fully caught up. I've never read any of the novels, and I get confused when they get referenced in threads. And I don't have the money or the means to attend PaizoCon or GenCon and learn any of these alleged "Secrets of Golarion" that are being talked about that supposedly involved non-disclosure agreements and talk about the truth behind Aroden's death being revealed. All of this feels so bewildering as I try to establish what I as a GM can and cannot do to avoid violating potential canon, and where to set boundaries for my players. I want to know where the boundaries are, so I can continue to enjoy the wonderful writing and stuff that Pathfinder keeps producing, but I feel like the minute I go off-script or improv something, a book will come out later that totally contradicts what I had happen, and thus will render that content unusable in my game.

JusticeZero
2013-08-19, 07:09 PM
Well, that is why I use my own settings. How much of an issue is it really if you are out of date with your campaign?

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-19, 07:22 PM
Players couldn't care less. Me? It keeps me awake at night. I'm trying to make sure my own PCs match the canon perfectly so they fit in the canon and I don't get anxiety for it. I'm incredibly self-conscious about my creative writing skills, and I feel if I go "off-script," meaning I deviate from the stuff in the books too much, the character becomes tacky or Mary Sue like. And because it'd be spam to post a new thread every time I have a question about fitting character backgrounds into the setting.

JusticeZero
2013-08-19, 07:31 PM
Well, how about you pin things to a less current point in the time line instead of trying to keep cutting edge?

warty goblin
2013-08-19, 07:37 PM
When worrying about canon in pretty much any situation I have one very simple rule: don't. No good ever comes of it.

Threadnaught
2013-08-19, 07:41 PM
Players couldn't care less.


Me? It keeps me awake at night. I'm trying to make sure my own PCs match the canon perfectly so they fit in the canon

Maybe you should stop caring so much. If everyone's having fun, but you, then you're the problem. Chat with your players and let them help you sort it.

If it's such a big deal that you can't let this go and they're not all that interested in following someone else's story, y'know because they want to make their own. Then stop the campaign and start a new one.


When worrying about canon in pretty much any situation I have one very simple rule: don't. No good ever comes of it.

I'm worrying whether my players are playing in canon with my homebrewed setting. I have a time paradox contingency.

nedz
2013-08-19, 07:57 PM
I run my own settings too; but if I were to use another setting then I would reinterpret/rewrite/lampshade/lampoon (as appropriate) any and all canon.

If you try to stick to someone else's canon then you are either going to 'get it wrong' or get spoilered — at least as far as any of your players who might care are concerned.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-19, 08:05 PM
Well, how about you pin things to a less current point in the time line instead of trying to keep cutting edge?

Because cutting edge is when the Adventure Paths are set.

Gnorman
2013-08-19, 08:17 PM
Sounds like the issue's in your own head. If your players don't care, and Paizo doesn't care (extremely likely), what's the problem if you get a few dates/characters wrong?

Worst case scenario, you can always retcon it if someone makes a stink, which seems unlikely in the first place.

It's supposed to be a fun game, not an exercise in academic rigor. Remember: we're always our own worst critics. I doubt your players will judge you harshly (or at all) for deviating from the source material. If you're unsure of your own writing, it's understandable to want to use something that's already been written out for you - but you don't need to follow the setting canon like scripture. No one's going to punish you for it.

Felhammer
2013-08-19, 08:27 PM
Stop keeping up with the Paizos.

I mean honestly, set an arbitrary date for your campaign to begin and say "from this date onwards, anything new must be analyzed before being accepted into my version of Golarion."

You aren't having fun, so you need to change (because Paizo certainly isn't going to).

JoshuaZ
2013-08-19, 08:29 PM
This is part of why I run my own settings. But even if one isn't going to do so, it really shouldn't matter. Almost every (every?) game I've played with a pre-existing setting the DM has monkeyed with stuff from canon, removing things they don't like, or adding in cities in geographically logical locations or much larger changes. Moreover, messing with canon actually has a helpful aspect in helping prevent players from metagaming as much and helps keep a more fair balance between players who know the setting well and those who don't.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-19, 08:43 PM
Stop keeping up with the Paizos.

I mean honestly, set an arbitrary date for your campaign to begin and say "from this date onwards, anything new must be analyzed before being accepted into my version of Golarion."

You aren't having fun, so you need to change (because Paizo certainly isn't going to).
I've had the same problem with other campaign settings, especially Forgotten Realms and Midnight.

But when I try to write my own campaign setting, it's cliched and full of plot holes with a horribly geographically inaccurate map and names that are blatantly stolen from Arthurian literature.

Big Fau
2013-08-19, 08:50 PM
And this is the reason I stay away from Forgotten Realms...

To be honest, it really doesn't matter what is or isn't officially canon in your game. You decide the canon, even if you are using official material. If you want Krune to still be alive in your campaign it's entirely within your authority to do so. Unless you are a player, in which case it's up to whoever is running the game.

Personally, if I paid attention to the official novels and such my campaigns would be a hell of a lot weirder than they already are.

Like there being an entire army of weresharks, and a hybrid werewolf/wereshark priest of the Silver Flame trying his damndest to spread the faith under the sea (and/or purge the wereshark population if needed). Or a major city having been overrun by said weresharks.

Grinner
2013-08-19, 08:54 PM
I've had the same problem with other campaign settings, especially Forgotten Realms and Midnight.

But when I try to write my own campaign setting, it's cliched and full of plot holes with a horribly geographically inaccurate map and names that are blatantly stolen from Arthurian literature.

A) Stop banking on Arthurian romance and Tolkien's writings. D&D doesn't even do either very well.

B) When in doubt, give the players something to kill.

C) Read this (alexschroeder.ch/wiki/Microlite_Campaign).

Winds
2013-08-19, 08:57 PM
As I understand it, each setting has a book dedicated to explaining that setting. Forgotten Realms Setting and Monsters of Faerun are all you would ever need to make use of the FR setting-and those can slide, if necessary. That's as an example.

For your particular issue, I would recommend the wikia page for Golarion. You get the basics about the pantheon, any oddities in the magic system, and a lowdown on the major civilizations. Nothing else needed. If your players enjoy it with or without the advancing lore, good.

Speaking personally, that's what turned me off of FR-too many epic or quasi-epic NPCs to work around. As a DM I had to fiat them away from a player who knew the setting better than me, and as a player it got old knowing that my team would pretty much always going to be among the smallest fish in the pond. I don't know Golarion well enough to know if it has those issues exactly, however.


That aside, even just focus on your homebrew setting. No extra resources needed, and if the inconsistencies bother you, then I know you'll fix them-thereby improving your worldbuilding skills and world. (Don't worry about cliches and Authorian themes too much. There is nothing new under the sun, and both the cliche styles ans Authorian themes stuck around for a reason. Use them if you think they fit.)

JoshuaZ
2013-08-19, 09:14 PM
But when I try to write my own campaign setting, it's cliched and full of plot holes with a horribly geographically inaccurate map and names that are blatantly stolen from Arthurian literature.

One thing I've found that helped (disclaimer: I've only DMed once) is to talk to players about what they are interested in backstory wise, and then use things they want to do to help decide what to do and the like.

For example, one of my players wanted to be a witch, so I looked a bit into that and made a set of seven witch-goddesses. That player then suggested that I name the goddesses after the Pleiades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiades) which then gave me a host of additional mythological inspiration to draw from.

Another player wrote a very long, extremely detailed backstory. Most people play characters who are loners, but this one is playing an elf who is about 300 years old and already has a family. Parts of their backstory involved some small kingdoms to the north of the main empire in the setting, and that helped me flush that out a lot also.

Now, this doesn't work with all players. One player I have is playing the strong, stoic warrior (Well, was. The character died last session.) And so I didn't really get much from them. But pretty much everyone else was really helpful.

So, when world building, it helps to have broad ideas, specific aspects you want, and then have the players help fill out other aspects.

tasw
2013-08-19, 09:44 PM
I try to run my stuff as close to canon as possible,

Lose this idea entirely. Your problem is solved. Paizo isnt gonna kick your door in and beat you up if you dont stick to canon. And unless you have very unusual players most of them wont have any idea what canon is beyond the very core Paizo books, and some of your players wont even know or care about that.

Just like with the forgotten realms the cannon is a starting point for a new campaign. Not something you need to constantly keep up with mid game.

Whenever you start a new campaign catch up on the newer canon and decide what to keep and what to ditch. Then your new campaign lives on its own merits.

Felhammer
2013-08-19, 10:15 PM
I've had the same problem with other campaign settings, especially Forgotten Realms and Midnight.

But when I try to write my own campaign setting, it's cliched and full of plot holes with a horribly geographically inaccurate map and names that are blatantly stolen from Arthurian literature.

To be honest, the Forgotten Realms are terribly inaccurate geographically speaking. Its geography (especially the Mountain Chains) are completely arbitrarily, with little baring on factual geography.

To be honest, very few players really care about geography that much. They just want to dive into a world and be apart of a story. The fact that the the Wolfspear Mountains were created when two proto-continents collided a billion years ago really has no bearing on a campaign.

Yes you should keep things vaguely realistic but don't sweat the details that much.

If borrowing from Arthurian legend bugs you, then stay the heck away from it. Go to Google Translate and pick a language none of your players would know (like say Lao or Georgian) and use that as the base for your language. Then come up with a theme for your world (like post-Zombie Apocalypse, or the war between Order and Chaos, or Sword and Sorcery). From there you can either start at the Macro-stage or the Micro-stage. Often it is easier for newbie world creators to start on the small side. So put a dot on a piece of paper. Name it. Describe how/why it was built, who rules it, what kind of people live there. Then draw a few more dots and do the same for them. Eventually you will have enough information so that you will have something on the order of a County completely described. Just start there. Have the PCs be locals. Then slowly detail out the world in concentric circles as your PCs go exploring.

Joe the Rat
2013-08-19, 10:22 PM
Seriously, Fudge the Canon. It's Your Table, Your World. This ain't Star Wars. :smallbiggrin:

Look at it this way: If you strictly follow the Paizo Plotline, your players will in effect have ZERO influence on the world. Their story is not written in anywhere. The events of the module will be assumed or ignored on future storylines. There is no branching plot for you.

Mistakes happen. You get something wrong on information, then either 1) What you said is now the newreality, or 2) Their sources were mistaken. Information isn't perfect in our high-bandwidth wired society. A Medieval-Renaissance fantasy setting is bound to have errors... Or deliberate mysteries?

It's not worth the worry.

Gnorman
2013-08-19, 10:29 PM
The wonderful part about D&D is that you always have a perfect explanation for any logical inconsistencies. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt)

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-19, 10:41 PM
As I understand it, each setting has a book dedicated to explaining that setting. Forgotten Realms Setting and Monsters of Faerun are all you would ever need to make use of the FR setting-and those can slide, if necessary. That's as an example.

For your particular issue, I would recommend the wikia page for Golarion. You get the basics about the pantheon, any oddities in the magic system, and a lowdown on the major civilizations. Nothing else needed. If your players enjoy it with or without the advancing lore, good.
You misunderstand. I do HAVE the Inner Sea World Guide. But that stuff's vague, so I turn to the supplemental books that are released for greater detail. For instance, say I want to play a certain clan from Sarkoris. The book Lost Kingdoms has a list of every Sarkorian clan at the time of its destruction, and by cross-referencing that list with information elsewhere in the book, as well as other books like The Worldwound, I can find which specific clans have no information about them, and thus are best to steal for use with my own characters.

What frustrates me is that it feels like there's some areas that still are too vague that are explained in books I can't access due to a lack of funds or time to read them. It feels like I can't keep up with the setting and thus if I do something, it'll turn out to be proven wrong, and I always view Paizo's writing as superior to mine.

Speaking personally, that's what turned me off of FR-too many epic or quasi-epic NPCs to work around. As a DM I had to fiat them away from a player who knew the setting better than me, and as a player it got old knowing that my team would pretty much always going to be among the smallest fish in the pond. I don't know Golarion well enough to know if it has those issues exactly, however.
Speaking from personal experience, I can tell you that there ARE epic and quasi-epic NPCs in the game, but most of the time they're relatively out of the way so PCs can do their thing. Most are antagonists for the PCs to beat the crap out of anyway.

That aside, even just focus on your homebrew setting. No extra resources needed, and if the inconsistencies bother you, then I know you'll fix them-thereby improving your worldbuilding skills and world. (Don't worry about cliches and Authorian themes too much. There is nothing new under the sun, and both the cliche styles ans Authorian themes stuck around for a reason. Use them if you think they fit.)
I've tried world-building before, even read The Giant's articles back to back. But it just seems so hard. I wouldn't even GM if I could get away with it, but unfortunately if that happens then I don't play at all. The last time I world-built was a cooperative venture with another person, and while I thought it was cool at the time it eventually started to bother me. So...the thorns cover everything except the clearings where the cities are? How do the cities have enough food to support themselves? There's a massive underground city? Then how to the surfacers mine for ore to make tools and weapons? Shopping in the main city is handled by paying people to scavenge, steal and barter for what you want and then give the item to you? How is that regulated? How are prices set? What started out as a fun attempt at building something that would make Neil Gaiman proud quickly turned into a logistical nightmare.

Another detailed world I set up was a pocket dimension where inscrutable beings brought adventurers and forced them to play games, fight battles and solve puzzles in some sort of grand competition. I had detailed personalities for each being, what their domains were like and the kinds of challenges they preferred to give. When I tried to run my players through it, all I could come up with were a few stupid riddles I got off the internet and they couldn't figure out without me providing a lot of hints.

tasw
2013-08-19, 11:49 PM
You cant be "wrong" when your writing your campaign world. Even if its a published setting. its still your world.

If you think Paizo's writing is always superior.... read more. They're writing is often sketchy and sometimes just downright trite and amateurish.

But if you must go with their precedent, they contradict themselves all the time. So why the heck shouldnt you?

If your really worried about world building being believable then do what warhammer did (not 40k) take a map of the real world (Europe basically in that case) and stick fantasy nations in it.

I did it with Greece once. It was the height of Spartan power, Orcs roamed the Ural mountains, darkest Afrika was home to wild gnolls, Egypt was the eternal theocracy of a powerful lich, Elves got Britain (of course), dwarves got the Andes mountains, and wild human barbarian tribes roamed the german wilds and everything east of the "civilized" lands of Greece.

You dont even have to write a map. Just find a map of the time period you want to emulate and shade in who rules what and put a little thought into the interactions.

Totally Guy
2013-08-20, 03:16 AM
Can you link us to the set of books you're talking about?

Yora
2013-08-20, 03:43 AM
One thing I've found that helped (disclaimer: I've only DMed once) is to talk to players about what they are interested in backstory wise, and then use things they want to do to help decide what to do and the like.
No, it doesn't! Player's have no preferences or wishes whatsoever at all! "We play anything you come up with" is the only reply you'll ever get. :smallamused:

Lorsa
2013-08-20, 05:07 AM
I don't care a single bit about canon in any game setting. I take what I like and don't care about the rest. Setting material is supposed to be a help, not a constraint. So screw the canon whenever it suits you and go with whatever will be fun for your group. That's my advice anyway.

Winds
2013-08-20, 08:18 AM
I've tried world-building before, even read The Giant's articles back to back. But it just seems so hard. I wouldn't even GM if I could get away with it, but unfortunately if that happens then I don't play at all. The last time I world-built was a cooperative venture with another person, and while I thought it was cool at the time it eventually started to bother me. So...the thorns cover everything except the clearings where the cities are? How do the cities have enough food to support themselves? There's a massive underground city? Then how to the surfacers mine for ore to make tools and weapons? Shopping in the main city is handled by paying people to scavenge, steal and barter for what you want and then give the item to you? How is that regulated? How are prices set? What started out as a fun attempt at building something that would make Neil Gaiman proud quickly turned into a logistical nightmare.

Another detailed world I set up was a pocket dimension where inscrutable beings brought adventurers and forced them to play games, fight battles and solve puzzles in some sort of grand competition. I had detailed personalities for each being, what their domains were like and the kinds of challenges they preferred to give. When I tried to run my players through it, all I could come up with were a few stupid riddles I got off the internet and they couldn't figure out without me providing a lot of hints.


Both of those sound like a lot of fun. Even if you haven't quite hammered everything out, I'd enjoy playing in those worlds-realistic or not.

erikun
2013-08-20, 10:34 AM
From what I've seen, most people who run a campaign in an established canon just use the canon up to that point, and diverge as needed. Events happening in foreign areas still happen according to canon - to give a sense of background events still taking place in the world - but local events only happen according to what's going on in the campaign.

I mean, what would happen if the PCs left town to go kill some orcs in the morning, and came back in the evening to find it overrun by an army and occupied for months by hostile forces? Such results would be silly, but would easily happen if you stuck to canon changes in the campaign in between settings. Isn't the Pathfinder timeline tied to real time in a one year-one year ratio anyways, even though your campaign might only progress hours or days for each weekly session? There seems to be a time discrepancy there anyways.

Kish
2013-08-20, 10:49 AM
Question: What am I doing wrong?!
Answer: I try to run my stuff as close to canon as possible.

Let it go or learn to enjoy being constantly stressed.

jindra34
2013-08-20, 11:01 AM
Question: What am I doing wrong?!
Answer: I try to run my stuff as close to canon as possible.

Let it go or learn to enjoy being constantly stressed.

I think its not trying to run things as close to cannon as possible. Its trying to run things so that they won't conflict with things that might come in as canon. Running the game with everything that has happened in universe, at the time of starting (both in character and out) shouldn't be too much of an issue. Forgetting to remember that PCs can and will influence events and trying to hold to canonicity past that point? That way leads to insanity and RAILROADing, lots of both.

Morty
2013-08-20, 11:09 AM
Another thing you might try is to stick to the basic canon. Use what's written in the setting book or whatever it is that Golarion has, and ignore the later supplements and additions. This way you have the canon setting without trying to keep up with an ever-changing metaplot.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-20, 11:32 AM
Can you link us to the set of books you're talking about?

You mean the ones I referenced in earlier posts? Sure.

Prince of Wolves (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8g3n?Pathfinder-Tales-Prince-of-Wolves)
The Inner Sea World Guide (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8ief?Pathfinder-Campaign-Setting-The-Inner-Sea-World-Guide)
Lost Kingdoms (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8sa5?Pathfinder-Campaign-Setting-Lost-Kingdoms)
The Worldwound (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8yvk?Pathfinder-Campaign-Setting-The-Worldwound)

Black Jester
2013-08-20, 01:52 PM
It is quite possible that you are putting a lot more thought and effort in considering the metaplot of the setting and the more mysterious background events than the authors do. My experiences with the metaplot of any ongoing setting have shown that the creators really don't put too much effort in it and then join the dots or fill out the blanks as they go and come up with any solution that seems convenient (the result is very typical for man metaplot results, namely to have a lot of build-up for very little payoff). Aaand, not to forget: Te metaplot is a mean to an end, namely to sell books, similar to a serialized novel, with the little specialty to keep information obscure and distributed over as many publications as possible to keep the the readers interested in buyin more diverse books.

The important thing to internalize is: None of the metaplot creators are part of your group. None of them personally knows you, or any of your fellow players, right?
So, basically, these are strangers. Why should their input matter to your game where you put a lot of effort and commitment to make it meanwhile to you and your friends? If they join your group, their opinion matters until then, it shouldn't matter as much as the idea of any of your players, especially yourself as a GM.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of an ongoing metaplot and the way it creates a setting that is not static but constantly developing. However, I have never seen this grand idea implemented that well, for various reasons.
I also fully understand (and somewhat share) the idea to stay true to a given canon of ideas to give the game some aura of authenticity and gravitas. It is not like these are inane concepts, but I think it is important to emancipate a bit from the general metaplot and the setting and use it as an outline for your own, personal one. After all, the importance is not what the metaplot or the setting could mean in general, the important thing is what it does mean to you.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-20, 01:55 PM
Well...I AM a frequent poster in the Ask James Jacobs Anything thread over on the Paizo forums... :smallredface:

PersonMan
2013-08-20, 01:58 PM
This may be me just being ignorant, but...what's keeping you from just going back in time a bit?

I know this has been asked before, and your reply because 'because the adventure paths are right now'. Why can't you use slightly older ones which are, let's say, one or two paths behind? Ones published in January of 2013 rather than July of 2013.

I don't have experience with adventure paths, though, so this might not be an option.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-20, 02:00 PM
Well, I was planning on following them in order starting from Rise of the Runelords, which sets the date, I believe in 4107 AR. And even if that's right or wrong, it still doesn't change the fact that I know nothing of the Pathfinder Society Organized Play's events, which has some very big stuff going on that I knew nothing about until someone offhandedly mentioned it on the Paizo forums.

JoshuaZ
2013-08-20, 04:03 PM
It may help if you ask yourself what you are trying to get out of gaming and what benefit you get from closely following the metaplot.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-20, 11:49 PM
Oh, that's easy. I want to create a good story. And I feel that when I'm forced to wing it or improvise, my own creative abilities fall flat, resulting in cliches and Mary Sue style characters that don't gel with the narrative themes and arcs of the settings.

Yora
2013-08-21, 07:01 AM
I'm currently reading The Kobold Guide to Worldbuilding (which is a bit pricy at $13, but really good), and one thing that comes up all the time is exactly the issue of fluff baggage that causes bloat and eventually makes a setting less and less suitable to actually play games in them.
I even put the best line of the whole book into my sig. :smallbiggrin:

Interestingly, half the writers of that book are also in the credits of the Golarion Inner Sea World Guide.

kamikasei
2013-08-21, 08:53 AM
I want to create a good story. And I feel that when I'm forced to wing it or improvise, my own creative abilities fall flat, resulting in cliches and Mary Sue style characters that don't gel with the narrative themes and arcs of the settings.
A GM has to be able to improvise or you'll end up paralyzed. You wouldn't be able to prepare in advance for everything your own players might do; no setting author is going to be able to prepare for you. Any published material you want to use is going to have gaps and hooks, not just out of necessity, but deliberately to give you room to adapt it for your own use.

It sounds like the core problem is simply that you're not confident in your own ability. If you want to improve, then building that confidence is the priority. This would probably be a lot easier if you were to switch to a setting that doesn't have new material continually coming out, which seems to only be exacerbating your anxiety by making it not just a question of "getting something wrong" but of closing off access to future material. Pick a setting which isn't being expanded any more, or simply draw a line at a certain point and determine for both yourself and your players that you're not going to be using any newly-released material in this campaign. Give yourself some room to breathe.

Yora
2013-08-21, 09:11 AM
A GM does not write a story, a GM sets up a situation to develop into a good story.
Which frankly, almost all published adventures get wrong.

It can be done, but that's seriously underusing the possibilities and potential of the medium. A story consists of the protagonists and the antagonists working against each other. When preparing an adventure, you only have to plan ahead what the villains are doing. What the PCs will be doing is left in the hands of the players. That's what RPGs are all about.
It is important that the PCs do have enough information to track down the villain, if they have no clue where he and his minions are, they can't take any moves against them.

The key is that less is often so much more. Don't prepare for the PCs how they will progress through the villains stronghold and at what points they will have to fight what monsters. Also don't set out in advance how precisely the PCs will foil the villains plan. If you just provide them with the information where the villain is currently hiding, they can take over from there on. Decide which entrance to use, at what time they try to get in, how they get around guards, and so on. What you need to prepare is what rooms there are and what creatures there are, and in what places the creatures are at what times. It's also useful to prepare what any of these creature would do if they spot an intruder or hear a fight nearby. With those things set, the ball is in the players court and they take over the show from there.
The players have to know they can make these choices, since they will likely assume that whatever happens next happens automatically. But this doesn't have to be anymore difficult than instead of saying "you see these things in this room and there are these creatures. They attack you." you say "you see these things in this room and there are these creatures. What do you want to do?".
And I think more often than not, the players won't be saying "We charge in and fight", but instead will ask what else there is in the room they could use to their advantage, or if would be possible to do certain things with the stuff that is at hand.

Morgarion
2013-08-21, 10:23 AM
Zousha,

Without knowing much more about you, you seem to me to possess some very admirable traits - attention to detail, commitment to quality. It sounds like you set high standards for yourself and that rather than failing, you aren't trying to begin with.

Maybe I'm wrong. I don't really know you. But regardless, you strike me as a smart guy and I think you're probably a fine DM and someday you'll make a kick ass homebrew campaign setting for your players. It's a stupid old cliche, and as much as we all wish it weren't true, you can't be great at everything right away.

Good luck. I hope I see you post something in the worldbuilding forum some day.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-21, 11:18 AM
A GM has to be able to improvise or you'll end up paralyzed. You wouldn't be able to prepare in advance for everything your own players might do; no setting author is going to be able to prepare for you. Any published material you want to use is going to have gaps and hooks, not just out of necessity, but deliberately to give you room to adapt it for your own use.

It sounds like the core problem is simply that you're not confident in your own ability. If you want to improve, then building that confidence is the priority. This would probably be a lot easier if you were to switch to a setting that doesn't have new material continually coming out, which seems to only be exacerbating your anxiety by making it not just a question of "getting something wrong" but of closing off access to future material. Pick a setting which isn't being expanded any more, or simply draw a line at a certain point and determine for both yourself and your players that you're not going to be using any newly-released material in this campaign. Give yourself some room to breathe.
You mean like Midnight?

kamikasei
2013-08-21, 11:34 AM
You mean like Midnight?
*googles Midnight*

Yeah, sure. I don't know anything about it or its merits, but the fact that there's no new material forthcoming for it at least frees you from the fear that you'll be unable to use something you'd have liked to.

The important thing isn't to use this or that setting, though. The important thing is to work on overcoming paralyzing anxiety that you're Doing It Wrong even while your players are enjoying themselves. What's the point of that?

Yes, I realize that you said earlier that you've tried running Midnight and had problems doing so. Thing is, you're never going to get a setting free from gaps you'll have to fill in. Filling in gaps is an essential part of running a game. You're going to have to get better at it - or, if your players are perfectly happy with how you're doing it now, learn to be more forgiving of your own work. Switching away from Paizo, or swearing off incorporating new material into your current campaign, is just a way to remove one big obvious source of anxiety you've already identified.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-21, 11:51 AM
I like how it's dark, but not hopelessly so like Warhammer 40K and its ilk. The players may not be able to drive the Shadow away, but they can sure give him Hell and keep him from ever achieving his goal. Plus the interbreeding's not humano-centric, which I find refreshing. Instead of half-elves, you have elflings (elf/halfling), and instead of half-orcs you have dworgs (orc/dwarf) as well as dwarrow (dwarf/gnome). I find it hard to sell my fellow players on, though, because it depends on PC vulnerability. The PCs can become heroes, but not without great struggle and personal risk, and many times, they're SUPPOSED to feel powerless against the enemy. And powerlessness is exactly what they hate feeling.

gdiddy
2013-09-01, 05:00 AM
When I see you, I see a person who is engaging in borderline obsessive behavior out your anxiety at internalized feelings of creative ineptitude.

Here is the most helpful two minutes to listen to when shaken in your creative confidence, courtesy National Public Radio:

On Creativity (vimeo.com/24715531)

Stick with it. If you had hammered out that world with your buddy over a couple months, maybe I'd have already given money to your kickstarter to get it published.

So, rock on and let yourself have fun. Put the effort in and keep making stuff, young Paladin. Don't obsess about faithfully retreading the works of another. You'll always only be a facsimile of a superior artist if you never learn how to fly on your own.

I promise your stuff will get better and you'll feel accomplished afterwards. But don't give up after World 1. If Tolkien and Martin had given up at World 1, we would have never had Middle Earth or Westeros. Those guys are respectively dead and old. Plenty of room for young artists who just stick with it.

Thrudd
2013-09-01, 06:38 AM
The only thing you're doing wrong is being too hard on yourself. I think everyone here agrees with that. There is no point in this whole gaming thing if you are stressing yourself out about it. Play with the books and the modules you have, and fill in the rest if it ever comes up. Yora has the best advice. Don't try to create a complete story. Just create the set-up. Understand the rules of the simulated fantasy world (to whatever level of detail you can manage without stressing), and let the players play in it. The less you try to control the players and the direction of the story, the less stress there will be.
You're the GM, whatever decision you make about what happens is correct. If you want to retcon your decisions later to fit with information you get from a new book, it's no big deal. It works just as well to ignore what the new book says in favor of your past decision. The players will be fine either way, so long as they are having fun.
I think feeling inadequate about improvising is something many GM's have experienced. I know I have. When the players want to keep going but I don't have anything else prepared yet, or they walk off the side of the last map I have, what do I do? I make some stuff up on the fly (I don't necessarily tell them I am doing so, but sometimes I have) and I feel like it is lacking in purpose, or detail, or is cheesy...but the players have always jumped in to the hilt, and usually love it and have tons of fun. I learned that often times my carefully crafted and meticulously detailed dungeon (or Star Wars space battle or well-planned kung fu action scene or whatever) was no more impactful or fun for them than the random improvised adventure I came up with on-the-spot. It isn't because I was so awesome at improvising (or my planned adventures were so bad and cheesy :smalltongue: ). It's because it's a game, and when you like what you're doing everyone knows it and fun will be the result.

Threadnaught
2013-09-01, 07:35 AM
When nearly every response can be broken down to "stop worrying about canonicity and just have fun." You should probably try to stop worrying about whether your storyline is canon so much and just enjoy the story that your group (including you) tells.

jedipotter
2013-09-01, 10:38 AM
As of late I've been finding myself becoming frustrated in keeping up with the metaplot of the Golarion setting.

Easy advice: just roll with it.

If they change something that does not matter at all in your game, like the ruler of a country a hundred miles away, then just change it. It does not matter much.

If they change something that matters, chnage it with a twist. Say they kill of the wizard Zork on the 15th, and your group was going to meet him on the 16th as part of your plot. The group shows up...and finds Zork alive and well. Oh, wait what happened? Zork had a clone, a twin brother, a sister with an illusion spell, the wizard 'faked' his death so on. So when the group walks into Zork's tower and a player says ''hey he was killed in the offical whatever'', Zork can just look at him and say ''the reports of my death were greatly exzagerated''.

The meat plot is always 'static'. On 9-1-13 you'd find out that on Pathfinder day 15 the white dam broke at 11 am. And you will note that event is ''frozen in time''. What happened at 12 or 1 pm? Well, guess what happened...anything you want. You want the dam fixed...oh like Gorn the gnome had the spell 'repair dam'. You want the dam destroied...oh the dragon Kon came by....

EvilJames
2013-09-01, 11:44 AM
It's all pretty much been said. But i have one more thing to add. Who cares if your names are all blatently stolen from some other source? This gaming not actual writing you aren't publishing your game, (and if you did then you can just change the names before they go to print) In fact, steal more ideas from other sources. One of my biggest campaigns had it's basic plot ripped wholesale from a Fiest novel. Absolutely no one noticed absolutely no one cared.

If you absolutely insist on canonicity and you absolutely should not. Just remember this, if you use a named group that doesn't have much description and then later on they get more accurately described and that description doesn't mach what you had them do. Just say it was a splinter group or a rogue faction of them.
If there was something was added that the players would have noticed that you didn't tell them about because it was only just recently written into the world, tell them they did see or that they do remember seeing it even if you never mentioned it before. All that matters is they know it's there now (that is assuming that knowing affects the story at all otherwise don't mention it at all)

Basically you are having the same problem my wife is having. She got a hold of an old 2nd ed campaign setting Red Steel and really likes the look of it and wants to run it. I already have a character concept for this game and would love for her to run it, but she's terrified that if she messes up some aspect of the world that the players will think less of her.
Both you and my wife are forgetting that the campaign world is just supposed to be the foundation you build your ideas on. Not a straight jacket to hinder your story.
The bottom line is as long as your players are having fun you can do no wrong when it comes to canon.

Rosstin
2013-09-01, 12:09 PM
Zousha: You're stressing out too much. As many have said, ditch the idea of canon. Start adding in your own stuff. If something doesn't make sense, just think of a reason it does. Your players are making the world with you. Their goal isn't to poke a million holes in your world.

Just relax and try to have more fun with it. Rely on your players a bit more.

One good trick I like to use in a new campaign setting is to put the player characters in complete and total ignorance. They start without any foreknowledge of previous events, either through amnesia, being newly created, or the like. Start them in a location that is similarly isolated from the outside world. You can start planning and building elements of that outside worlds between sessions and in reaction to the player characters.

I did this once with a world set underground. The PCs were all raised from the dead by a cleric in a very tiny underground town (with only about 10 people populating it.) The people had raised them to save them from an external threat to the town, a group of skeleton-using constructs which were blocking off the town. The players had no past memories, and nothing was known of the outside world. As the campaign progressed, I was able to add details and locations slowly, and the player characters were free to build their characters futures and also retroactively their past deeds and lives.

You should take a look at some more recent versions of DMGs. Wizards of the Coast specifically tells DMs: when you take a campaign setting and put your players in it, it becomes YOUR world. All of the published material is to be taken with a grain of salt, and adapted how you, the DM, the God of your world, see fit.