TWF/Unarmed/Natural Attacks? ~mind boggled~

[SirAxealot]

Can someone explain how all three interact with each other slowly and in small words? I've been trying to figure out various facets of the rules in preparation for an Unarmed Swordsage and it's making my head hurt.

[Greenish]

TWF and Natural Attacks don't really interact at all. TWF lets you pull of your normal attacks, Natural Attacks are used as secondaries (assuming you aren't using the relevant limb to hold weapons).

Whether Unarmed Strike is a natural attack, and how exactly it interacts with TWF, are some of the great unsolved mysteries of our era. The theories are as many as the theorists.

[SirAxealot]

Whether Unarmed Strike is a natural attack, and how exactly it interacts with TWF, are some of the great unsolved mysteries of our era. The theories are as many as the theorists.

Well at least I'm not alone!

[Urpriest]

Here are the basic, no-controversy statements:

There are two types of attacks, iterative and non-iterative.

Iterative attacks come from your Base Attack Bonus. They go from highest to lowest, that is, they iterate. You get one, plus another for every five more points of BAB, so at BAB +6 you get an additional iterative attack at +1, then at +11 you get one at +6 and one at +1, and etc.

Two-Weapon Fighting interacts with iteratives. When choosing to use two-weapon fighting, you modify your iteratives by adding an additional attack with another weapon at your highest attack bonus, and penalizing all your attacks by a certain amount depending on whether or not you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. Further feats like Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting add additional attacks, while Multiweapon Fighting works the same way but for more than two arms. Note that while the difference between Two and Multi-weapon Fighting depends on your number of arms, in either case the weapons involved don't have to be wielded in your arms, they can be things like armor spikes or unarmed strikes for example.

Unarmed Strikes are a particular kind of iterative attack that every creature has access to. Normally they only deal nonlethal damage and provoke attacks of opportunity, but Improved Unarmed Strike fixes both of these issues. You can make this attack with any part of your body. Unarmed Strikes are also natural weapons, though they don't obey the other rules for natural weapons that I am about to mention since they are iterative attacks. Unarmed Strikes can be one of the two-weapons use for Two-Weapon Fighting, whether they can be both is contentious and depends on whether you count Unarmed Strike as one weapon or as more than one.

Other natural attacks are non-iterative. Rather than getting more as your BAB improves, you get one of each natural attack you possess per round no matter how high your BAB. When you full attack with natural attacks, one attack is primary. The others are secondary, taking a -5 to hit which can be mitigated by the Multiattack feat and only adding 1/2 Str to damage. Which attack is primary will be clear from reading the full attack entry of the relevant monster, one of the attacks will clearly not have a -5 (or -2 with Multiattack) penalty.

If you are using both iterative and non-iterative attacks, your iterative attacks are primary, while all non-iterative natural attacks become secondary, regardless of whether they would usually be primary.

[SirAxealot]

"...in either case the weapons involved don't have to be wielded in your arms, they can be things like armor spikes or unarmed strikes for example."

So an attack line with ITWF for a BAB 15 Unarmed Swordsage would look like this:

"Main hand" - 11/6/1
"Off hand" - 11/6

And the same swordsage without using TWF would be going for a 15/10/5 line?



Unarmed Strikes can be one of the two-weapons use for Two-Weapon Fighting, whether they can be both is contentious and depends on whether you count Unarmed Strike as one weapon or as more than one.


This sort of relates to the above and below questions.


If you are using both iterative and non-iterative attacks, your iterative attacks are primary, while all non-iterative natural attacks become secondary, regardless of whether they would usually be primary.

The question here then is can I, for example, make an Unarmed Swordsage, get proficiencies back somehow, and then use a greatsword or whatever to hack and slash while using elbows and kicks as my natural, non-iterative attacks? How many would I get, etc.

The problem with either of these, of course, are the ToB strikes that only let you make one attack, which sort of make THF more attractive.

[Greenish]

So an attack line with ITWF for a BAB 15 Unarmed Swordsage would look like this:

"Main hand" - 11/6/1
"Off hand" - 11/6

And the same swordsage without using TWF would be going for a 15/10/5 line?Yes, assuming you used didn't use a light weapon in your offhand.


The question here then is can I, for example, make an Unarmed Swordsage, get proficiencies back somehow, and then use a greatsword or whatever to hack and slash while using elbows and kicks as my natural, non-iterative attacks? How many would I get, etc.Unarmed Swordsage doesn't lose weapon proficiencies, and you can't use unarmed strikes as non-iterative attacks (but you could use TWF or Snap Kick).


The problem with either of these, of course, are the ToB strikes that only let you make one attack, which sort of make THF more attractive.Yes, though there are strikes that work with TWF, strikes that don't care about weapon damage, and many boosts work better for multiple attacks (such as from TWF).

Also, Snap Kick.

[Keld Denar]

UrPriest has it correct. Wise is he, and much respect you must give.

As for your question, you MAY actually TWF with a Greatsword and your UAS. UAS' are weird in that they don't require a hand to use. Anyone, not just a monk, can attack unarmed with any part of their body.

Unfortunately, you'd be TWFing at that point. UASs ALWAYS follow the rules for iterative weapons, even if they are technically classified as natural. As an iterative weapon, it can't be a secondary natural attack. Thus, if you stab with your sword and kick with your foot in the same round, you'll probably be TWFing, and you'll take the penalties laid out therein. If you had a bite attack, however, you could slash with your sword AND bite with your...bite, and that would be all kosher and stuff.

Weird rules are weird.

EDIT: As Greenish mentioned....Snap Kick.

Oh, and also Snap Kick.

EDIT EDIT:

A miniguide for you. I co-authored it. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0)

[Fax Celestis]

Here are the basic, no-controversy statements:

There are two types of attacks, iterative and non-iterative.

Iterative attacks come from your Base Attack Bonus. They go from highest to lowest, that is, they iterate. You get one, plus another for every five more points of BAB, so at BAB +6 you get an additional iterative attack at +1, then at +11 you get one at +6 and one at +1, and etc.

Two-Weapon Fighting interacts with iteratives. When choosing to use two-weapon fighting, you modify your iteratives by adding an additional attack with another weapon at your highest attack bonus, and penalizing all your attacks by a certain amount depending on whether or not you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. Further feats like Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting add additional attacks, while Multiweapon Fighting works the same way but for more than two arms. Note that while the difference between Two and Multi-weapon Fighting depends on your number of arms, in either case the weapons involved don't have to be wielded in your arms, they can be things like armor spikes or unarmed strikes for example.

Unarmed Strikes are a particular kind of iterative attack that every creature has access to. Normally they only deal nonlethal damage and provoke attacks of opportunity, but Improved Unarmed Strike fixes both of these issues. You can make this attack with any part of your body. Unarmed Strikes are also natural weapons, though they don't obey the other rules for natural weapons that I am about to mention since they are iterative attacks. Unarmed Strikes can be one of the two-weapons use for Two-Weapon Fighting, whether they can be both is contentious and depends on whether you count Unarmed Strike as one weapon or as more than one.

Other natural attacks are non-iterative. Rather than getting more as your BAB improves, you get one of each natural attack you possess per round no matter how high your BAB. When you full attack with natural attacks, one attack is primary. The others are secondary, taking a -5 to hit which can be mitigated by the Multiattack feat and only adding 1/2 Str to damage. Which attack is primary will be clear from reading the full attack entry of the relevant monster, one of the attacks will clearly not have a -5 (or -2 with Multiattack) penalty.

If you are using both iterative and non-iterative attacks, your iterative attacks are primary, while all non-iterative natural attacks become secondary, regardless of whether they would usually be primary.

Urpriest, have I ever told you that I love you? In a strictly platonic, bro-ish sort of way. Otherwise my wife might object. Also I don't go for bald dudes.

[SirAxealot]

Yes, assuming you used didn't use a light weapon in your offhand.

Unarmed Swordsage doesn't lose weapon proficiencies, and you can't use unarmed strikes as non-iterative attacks (but you could use TWF or Snap Kick).

Yes, though there are strikes that work with TWF, strikes that don't care about weapon damage, and many boosts work better for multiple attacks (such as from TWF).

Also, Snap Kick.

Why does the light weapon make a difference? I've never played a character that used light weapons.

Correct bout the proficiencies, my mistake.

UrPriest has it correct. Wise is he, and much respect you must give.

A miniguide for you. I co-authored it. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0)

I respect all three of you. And I used both your Natural Weapons miniguide and Urpriest's monster guide when making a druid a while ago.

So yeah, thanks to you three for the help. Weird rules are, as you say, weird.

Why so much love for Snap Kick? Beyond the obvious extra attack for minor penalty. Does it let you make an attack on top of a strike or something?

Oh, and while I've got the Trio of Illustrious Interpreters here, how do things like spiked gauntlets or spiked armor interact with all this? I ask because of this:
"This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."

Presumably spiked greaves or whatever work in a similar way. Would this replace the monk UAS damage or what? It says unarmed attack rather than unarmed strike, but given the noted weirdness, I might as well ask

[Greenish]

Why does the light weapon make a difference? I've never played a character that used light weapons.Because TWF penalties (with the feat) are only -2 if you use a light weapon in off-hand.


Why so much love for Snap Kick? Beyond the obvious extra attack for minor penalty. Does it let you make an attack on top of a strike or something?Yes. Also AoO. Also Charge.


Oh, and while I've got the Trio of Illustrious Interpreters here, how do things like spiked gauntlets or spiked armor interact with all this? I ask because of this:
"This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."

Presumably spiked greaves or whatever work in a similar way. Would this replace the monk UAS damage or what? It says unarmed attack rather than unarmed strike, but given the noted weirdness, I might as well askSpiked armour is just a light weapon, ditto spiked gauntlet. Normal gauntlet is weird.

[Urpriest]

Why does the light weapon make a difference? I've never played a character that used light weapons.

Really? You've never played a character that use a dagger, or a shortsword, or...well ok then.

Anyway, TWF penalties are lower if your off-hand weapon is light.



Why so much love for Snap Kick? Beyond the obvious extra attack for minor penalty. Does it let you make an attack on top of a strike or something?

In a word, yes. It lets you make an extra attack whenever you attack, which includes strikes and even opportunity attacks.



Oh, and while I've got the Trio of Illustrious Interpreters here, how do things like spiked gauntlets or spiked armor interact with all this? I ask because of this:
"This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."

Presumably spiked greaves or whatever work in a similar way. Would this replace the monk UAS damage or what? It says unarmed attack rather than unarmed strike, but given the noted weirdness, I might as well ask

A normal gauntlet just lets you deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes, but you still deal your normal unarmed strike damage. Spiked Gauntlets instead are their own weapon, as are Armor Spikes, so they don't interact with unarmed strikes at all. They're just weapons you don't need free hands to wield.

[SirAxealot]

Really? You've never played a character that use a dagger, or a shortsword, or...well ok then.


Wildshaping druid, barbarian/warblade, cleric with mace and shield, lockdown crusader with guisarme. None of them had light weapons for anything other than backup.

Also, with TWF, does both weapons being light weapons reduce the mods further? I believe unarmed strikes count as being light weapons.

To go back to the hypothetical swordsage: shouldn't his offhand line be higher then, like this? This is what consulting the SRD leads me to believe

BAB 15 Unarmed Swordsage with ITWF

"Main hand" - 13/8/3
"Off hand" - 13/8

[Greenish]

Also, with TWF, does both weapons being light weapons reduce the mods further? I believe unarmed strikes count as being light weapons.No. Yes.


To go back to the hypothetical swordsage: shouldn't his offhand line be higher then, like this? This is what consulting the SRD leads me to believe

BAB 15 Unarmed Swordsage with ITWF

"Main hand" - 13/8/3
"Off hand" - 13/8That's right.

[vasharanpaladin]

Wildshaping druid, barbarian/warblade, cleric with mace and shield, lockdown crusader with guisarme. None of them had light weapons for anything other than backup.


Natural weapons are light weapons. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFinesse)

[SirAxealot]

Natural weapons are light weapons. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFinesse)

Yes, but they don't function as light weapons for calculating iteratives. Nor was I using TWF with them.

EDIT: Forgot to log off my bro's account, whoops >_>

[Pickford]

TWF and Natural Attacks don't really interact at all. TWF lets you pull of your normal attacks, Natural Attacks are used as secondaries (assuming you aren't using the relevant limb to hold weapons).

Whether Unarmed Strike is a natural attack, and how exactly it interacts with TWF, are some of the great unsolved mysteries of our era. The theories are as many as the theorists.

There's 0 mystery, you can't have an off-hand unarmed strike unless you are wielding another weapon mh.

edit: And unarmed strikes are NOT natural weapons. Monk unarmed strikes are 'treated' as natural weapons for purposes of spells/buffs/etc...

[Gwendol]

There's 0 mystery, you can't have an off-hand unarmed strike unless you are wielding another weapon mh.

edit: And unarmed strikes are NOT natural weapons. Monk unarmed strikes are 'treated' as natural weapons for purposes of spells/buffs/etc...

Pickford is correct. An unarmed strike is always an iterative attack, and attacking multiple times in a round (and not using iterative attacks) with an unarmed strike (no matter which part of the body is being used) requires flurry of blows.

Consequently, as noted above, unarmed strikes are not natural weapons. Only monk unarmed strikes are treated as both manufactured and natural weapons for the purpose of spell and effects relating to those.

[Krazzman]

Ok let's assume a BaB 15 Character with Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Multiattack as well as some sort of Unarmed Strike. Str 10 and NO weaponfinesse (just to use easier to understand numbers).

For easyness let's assume 2 Wingbuffet and a Tailslap as Natural attacks.

Normal Iterative Stuff:
+13/+8/+3 (-2 for TWFing)
TWF:
+13/+8 (-2 for TWFing)
Natural Attacks:
+11/+11/+11 (-2 for TWFing, -2 for Multiattack [without feat would be -5])

OR with Snap kick:
+11/+6/+1 (-2 TWFing, -2 Snapkick)
+11/+11/+6 (-2 TWFing, -2 Snapkick)
+9/+9/+9 (-2 TWFing, -2 Snapkick, -2 Multiattack)

Hope this helps.

[cerin616]

So why can't unarmed strike be an offhand weapon? and why doesnt it count as a light weapon in the offhand for TWF?

That is very confusing. I never saw any rule saying i can only have 1 unarmed strike wielded at a time.

[Chronos]

Unarmed Strike is considered a single weapon that consists of your entire body. You only have one body, so you only have one unarmed strike. The upside of this is if you get it enhanced somehow (Greater Magic Weapon, or Greater Magic Fang if you're a monk), then the enhancement applies to kicks, punches, head-butts, pelvic thrusts, etc. all equally. The downside is that you can't dual-wield unarmed strike and unarmed strike, since you only have one of them. But you can dual-wield a manufactured weapon and an unarmed strike, with whichever one you prefer (probably the one with more damage) being counted as your primary.

[cerin616]

Unarmed Strike is considered a single weapon that consists of your entire body. You only have one body, so you only have one unarmed strike. The upside of this is if you get it enhanced somehow (Greater Magic Weapon, or Greater Magic Fang if you're a monk), then the enhancement applies to kicks, punches, head-butts, pelvic thrusts, etc. all equally. The downside is that you can't dual-wield unarmed strike and unarmed strike, since you only have one of them. But you can dual-wield a manufactured weapon and an unarmed strike, with whichever one you prefer (probably the one with more damage) being counted as your primary.

Is there any RAW that clarifies this either directly or vaguely?
I have read a few discussions on it since I asked, and it looks incredibly vague.

[Keld Denar]

edit: And unarmed strikes are NOT natural weapons. Monk unarmed strikes are 'treated' as natural weapons for purposes of spells/buffs/etc...
You have this backwards. UASs ARE natural weapons. They are affected by spells and many feats as if they are natural weapons. The only rules they break are that you make iterative attacks with them and that you are not normally armed with your UAS (unless you take the IUAS feat). Monks and only monks can be affected by spells that affect either natural our manufactured weapons. UASs are natural weapons that behave like manufactured weapons rather than manufactured weapons that function like natural weapons.


Ok let's assume a BaB 15 Character with Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Multiattack as well as some sort of Unarmed Strike. Str 10 and NO weaponfinesse (just to use easier to understand numbers).

For easyness let's assume 2 Wingbuffet and a Tailslap as Natural attacks.

Normal Iterative Stuff:
+13/+8/+3 (-2 for TWFing)
TWF:
+13/+8 (-2 for TWFing)
Natural Attacks:
+11/+11/+11 (-2 for TWFing, -2 for Multiattack [without feat would be -5])

OR with Snap kick:
+11/+6/+1 (-2 TWFing, -2 Snapkick)
+11/+11/+6 (-2 TWFing, -2 Snapkick)
+9/+9/+9 (-2 TWFing, -2 Snapkick, -2 Multiattack)

Hope this helps.

Your math is wrong. Natural weapons are not penalized for TWFing. TWFing penalties only apply to main hand and offhand attacks. Natural weapon attacks are neither. They would take penalties for Snap Kick because those apply to ALL attacks made in a round.

And whether or not you can TWF with just UASs is vague. There are rules that go both ways. I'm on my phone, but in sure you can google up half a dozen threads on this very forum. It does make sense that a person could TWF with their UAS and it it's not even a little bit over powered, so I've always ruled for it. As I said, though, it could go either way.

[cerin616]

You have this backwards. UASs ARE natural weapons. They are affected by spells and many feats as if they are natural weapons. The only rules they break are that you make iterative attacks with them and that you are not normally armed with your UAS (unless you take the IUAS feat). Monks and only monks can be affected by spells that affect either natural our manufactured weapons. UASs are natural weapons that behave like manufactured weapons rather than manufactured weapons that function like natural weapons.

UAS is not a natural weapon when considering requirements. (i cant get multiattack with UAS)
UAS is a natural requirement when applying enhancements and effects.

Its pretty strange.


Unarmed Strike is considered a single weapon that consists of your entire body. You only have one body, so you only have one unarmed strike. The upside of this is if you get it enhanced somehow (Greater Magic Weapon, or Greater Magic Fang if you're a monk), then the enhancement applies to kicks, punches, head-butts, pelvic thrusts, etc. all equally. The downside is that you can't dual-wield unarmed strike and unarmed strike, since you only have one of them. But you can dual-wield a manufactured weapon and an unarmed strike, with whichever one you prefer (probably the one with more damage) being counted as your primary.

and as per this, you could also interpret this as there is no official weapon, but that the weapon is whatever part of your body you are attacking with at the time, and so you have an infinite number of unarmed strike weapons that are all effected by the same spell, such as when you cast bless weapon on a double weapon both ends have the blessed property.

[Gwendol]

Regarding natural weapons:

Natural Weapons
Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

Regarding unarmed strikes:

Unarmed Attacks
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity
Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see "Armed" Unarmed Attacks, below).

"Armed" Unarmed Attacks
Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed.

Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)


Unarmed strikes are never natural weapons. Improved natural attack does not apply to unarmed strikes unless the character in question is a monk.

[Fax Celestis]

And whether or not you can TWF with just UASs is vague. There are rules that go both ways. I'm on my phone, but in sure you can google up half a dozen threads on this very forum. It does make sense that a person could TWF with their UAS and it it's not even a little bit over powered, so I've always ruled for it. As I said, though, it could go either way.

I look at it like this: a gauntlet is, according to the weapon table, an unarmed strike that converts to lethal damage.

If I were dual wielding gauntlets, there would be no argument. I could TWF, once with each gauntlet. But once the kid gloves come off and real pugilists start swinging, then apparently you can't TWF anymore? That's ridiculous.

[Person_Man]

I've been fiddling around with this simple house rule:

1) Anything that adds an attack simply adds an attack, without effecting your to hit roll.

2) Other then critical hits and a lance, you may not use damage multipliers (Leap Attack, Spirited Charge, Headlong Rush, Valorous enchantment, etc).

3) If you find some other way to create a mind boggling damage combo or if you really want to play a character with 20 attacks, you'd better be ready to fight enemies that are 20 times harder. The DM is the god of their world. Believe me when I tell you I can make monsters more painful then any cheesy build you can think of.

You'd be surprised at how much easier it makes the game for newer players.

[Feytalist]

Perhaps it would be better to let Unarmed Strike be in a category of its own? It has a unique property (you're not actually considered "armed" with it unless IUAS) and in some cases, it's treated as a wielded weapon, in some cases it's treated like a natural attack, and in some cases it's treated as both.

It's plenty weird. I guess it's possible that you could even use natural attacks and unarmed strike in conjunction. Slam or whatever as primary, and UAS as secondary (or vice versa). Of course, if you have multiple natural attacks, it's especially pointless since in that case you are only allowed to use one.

[Gwendol]

Actually, you can't dual wield gauntlets either. They are grouped with unarmed attacks. Spiked gauntlets however, appear to be kosher as they are listed as light weapons.

[Gwendol]

Perhaps it would be better to let Unarmed Strike be in a category of its own? It has a unique property (you're not actually considered "armed" with it unless IUAS) and in some cases, it's treated as a wielded weapon, in some cases it's treated like a natural attack, and in some cases it's treated as both.

It's plenty weird. I guess it's possible that you could even use natural attacks and unarmed strike in conjunction. Slam or whatever as primary, and UAS as secondary (or vice versa). Of course, if you have multiple natural attacks, it's especially pointless since in that case you are only allowed to use one.

You could, but it's not supported by the rules. Unarmed strikes are a category of its own according to the weapons table (listed under: "unarmed attacks"). You can't attack with an UAS as a secondary natural attack, ever IIRC.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually, you can't dual wield gauntlets either. They are grouped with unarmed attacks. Spiked gauntlets however, appear to be kosher as they are listed as light weapons.

If I put little spiky bits on my gloves, suddenly I can swing both fists? Does that not strike you as the Dumbest Thing Ever™?

[Gwendol]

If I put little spiky bits on my gloves, suddenly I can swing both fists? Does that not strike you as the Dumbest Thing Ever™?

Yes. I can't understand how the reasoning went, but there you have it. OTOH, the DM that bans the use of a two-fist combo based on the RAW is being a donkey.

[Feytalist]

You could, but it's not supported by the rules. Unarmed strikes are a category of its own according to the weapons table (listed under: "unarmed attacks"). You can't attack with an UAS as a secondary natural attack, ever IIRC.

I actually meant UAS as a secondary attack, not secondary natural attack.

So since it's possible for a creature to attack with a natural attack and a manufactured weapon in the same round, it should be possible for a creature to attack with a natural attack and a UAS in the same round.

[Gwendol]

Yes, of course.

[cerin616]

If I put little spiky bits on my gloves, suddenly I can swing both fists? Does that not strike you as the Dumbest Thing Ever™?

It strikes me as a gauntlet with a pointy thing on it.

[Fax Celestis]

It strikes me as a gauntlet with a pointy thing on it.

I made my Spot check to see what you did there.

[Chronos]

If you have some sort of natural weapon (say, a bite), you can certainly use both the bite and an unarmed strike in a full attack. However, you can't use two-weapon fighting with natural weapons, so you'd have to use the rules for combining iterative and natural weapons. This means that your unarmed strike must be the primary (and gets iteratives if your BAB qualifies for them), the bite is at a penalty of -5, and the unarmed strike has no penalty.

[Keld Denar]

I still don't completely see where people get the idea that you only have, or can only use one UAS. I've seen done places (such as the text of Magic Fang) which refers to it as singular, but collective nouns are often used with singular articles. A spell that modifies an attack means that it modifies one attack, not that there is only one attack to modify. If Steve casts Magic Fang on his fist, does that mean that when Bob cats Magic Fang, he can only cast it on Steve's fist? No. Then why couldn't Steve cast it on both of his fists?

An UAS is a weapon. Why can't you have multiple?

And Gwendol, you still have it backwards. A Fighter with IUAS can ONLY benefit from Magic Fang. A Monk can benefit from Magic Weapon or Magic Fang because it explicitly says it does. UASs are natural weapons, but a monk can treat his as manufactured for spells. Anyone can take Imp Natural Attack for their UAS because they are natural (except as noted about iteratives and counting as armed).

[Gwendol]

Please provide a quote or a side reference. Also, I'm not sure IUAS's do benefit from magic fang, since that attack is not listed under natural weapons. A monk strike is explicitly a valid target though.

[Keld Denar]

Magic Weapon
Transmutation
Level: Clr 1, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 1, War 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Weapon touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)

Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. (An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon’s +1 bonus on attack rolls.)

You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.

Now, where is a quote that says that an UAS it's a single entity and that a being only has one and thus can't use it for TWFing?

[Darrin]

Please provide a quote or a side reference. Also, I'm not sure IUAS's do benefit from magic fang, since that attack is not listed under natural weapons. A monk strike is explicitly a valid target though.

The spell description for magic weapon explicitly clarifies this in the PHB/SRD:

"You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang)."

The text for magic fang isn't quite as clear, since it uses "fist" to refer to an unarmed strike, even though fist is never really defined from a mechanical standpoint. There's also a reminder that using magic fang doesn't allow a non-improved unarmed strike to do lethal damage instead of subdual.

To confuse things further, there are at least two examples that treat "fists" as two different weapons: the Kensai (Complete Warrior) has to pay double to enchant each fist (even though, mechanics-wise, whether he uses his fists for unarmed strikes is meaningless), and... I think Necklace of Natural Attacks/Weapons (Savage Species) has something similar, but I'm looking at the text now and it doesn't mention counting two fists as separate weapons. So I'm a little fuzzy on the other example.

And on the gripping hand... The rules for unarmed strikes are jumbled, confusing, and spread all over the place, so many designers didn't understand how they worked. Thus you get rules text where they refer to slams as if they were unarmed strikes (Battlefist in ECS), secondary attacks as if they were offhand (Shifter claws) or I have no idea what they were thinking (Nezumi in OA, which gets a bite/claw that is both unarmed/natural and neither unarmed/natural at the same time). Kensai having to pay double to enchant both "fists" but then not using his fists at all for unarmed strikes... I'll have to check the 3.0 text, that could be another error cut&pasted from the 3.0 source, although even in 3.0 they should have known better than to assume unarmed = "fists".

[Gwendol]

Totally agree. You have to look up the description for magic weapon to see that unarmed strikes are valid targets for magic fang. There is no listing for unarmed strikes under natural attacks, and yet the practical difference between a slam and an unarmed strike eludes me. Consider a giant for example. He can slam with his arms and get two attacks at full BAB on a full attack, or make an unarmed strike at iterative BAB, provoke an AoO, and deal non-lethal damage. What is the difference here?

[Keld Denar]

Actually, to make matters even more confusing, he can actually do both. He can swing for his full iterative compliment of attacks using his UAS and then make 2 slams as secondary natural attacks.

It gets even scarier when you realize that a Marilith with IUAS and Greater Multiweapon Fighting can make 25 attacks in a round without breaking a sweat.

[Krazzman]

In Pathfinder SKR described and nerfed Unarmed strikes in the FAQ if I remember correctly.

The catch was that yes Unarmed Strikes are light "weapons" but not able to TWF with BUT! here comes the catch on the same time if you get Magic Fang then this counts only for one specific region of your body.

Can't find the Post atm. But maybe you can find it.

[Gwendol]

Actually, to make matters even more confusing, he can actually do both. He can swing for his full iterative compliment of attacks using his UAS and then make 2 slams as secondary natural attacks.

It gets even scarier when you realize that a Marilith with IUAS and Greater Multiweapon Fighting can make 25 attacks in a round without breaking a sweat.

I don't mind monsters getting a lot of attacks, but the inconsistencies of the rules. The giant uses exactly the same limb the same way, but in once case provokes AoO's, the other not. One deals (massive) non-lethal damage, the other lethal damage. As a slam can attack twice in a round at full attack bonus, while as UAS attack at iterative, but if he wants to use both arms needs to go through the whole TWF deal. For exactly the same attack. :smallannoyed:

[Pickford]

You have this backwards. UASs ARE natural weapons. They are affected by spells and many feats as if they are natural weapons. The only rules they break are that you make iterative attacks with them and that you are not normally armed with your UAS (unless you take the IUAS feat). Monks and only monks can be affected by spells that affect either natural our manufactured weapons. UASs are natural weapons that behave like manufactured weapons rather than manufactured weapons that function like natural weapons.

Actually, unarmed strikes aren't even weapons:


unarmed strike: a successful blow, typically dealing non-lethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons. A monk can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike, but others deal nonlethal damage.

also see unarmed attack:


unarmed attack: A melee attack made with no weapon in hand.

edit: Furthermore, Natural Weapons do NOT gain iteratives, they are separate things. Natural Weapons are defined in the MM:


Natural weapons are weapons that are physically part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach.
Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack--generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or armlike limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

It goes on, but I think you get the idea. Most PC races simply do not have a natural attack at all.

[ramrod]

I have just created an unarmed swordsage and I just got around the problem by getting my DM to allow flurry of blows as part of the package for unarmed swordsage, freeing up a feat slot.

It makes you more powerful, but it makes flavour sense. My DM basically sees unarmed swordsage as what a monk should be anyway, as do many players/dms

[Urpriest]

I have just created an unarmed swordsage and I just got around the problem by getting my DM to allow flurry of blows as part of the package for unarmed swordsage, freeing up a feat slot.

It makes you more powerful, but it makes flavour sense. My DM basically sees unarmed swordsage as what a monk should be anyway, as do many players/dms

How does that get around the problem, though? You'd still get more attacks if able to TWF.

[ramrod]

I may be wrong here, but flurry is essentially the unarmed equivalent of twf (although could be made with the same limb more than once) with the same/better modifiers after progression.

Twf does not stack with flurry correct? So how would twf be any better than flurry? (Other than many good feats combining well with twf feats)

[Greenish]

I may be wrong here, but flurry is essentially the unarmed equivalent of twf (although could be made with the same limb more than once) with the same/better modifiers after progression.

Twf does not stack with flurry correct? So how would twf be any better than flurry? (Other than many good feats combining well with twf feats)In PF, flurry may or may not be TWF, depending on who's babysitting SKR.

In 3.5, flurry has nothing to do with TWF (and by most interpretations, stacks with it, if you really want more attack penalties).

[Fax Celestis]

In 3.5, flurry has nothing to do with TWF (and by most interpretations, stacks with it, if you really want more attack penalties).

POWER ATTACK, TWF, SNAP KICK, FLURRY OF BLOWS, NO WEAPON FINESSE, DEX ONLY...final destination (www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-7gmds2njg‎).

[ramrod]

In PF, flurry may or may not be TWF, depending on who's babysitting SKR.

In 3.5, flurry has nothing to do with TWF (and by most interpretations, stacks with it, if you really want more attack penalties).

So no problem, my original post was fine then?