Ruby Knight Vindicator question...

[zephyrskye]

I've been searching for this for a while and can't seem to find anyone with the same question as I do about it.

The ruby knight vindicator has maneuvers from the shadow hand stuff right, but it says you must meet the prereqs of getting any maneuvers or stances. One of the prereqs of getting shadow hand stuff is having initiator levels in swordsage.
So if you are a crusader/cleric, is it impossible to get the shadow hand stuff or does it treat it as a class school for the Crusader as well now?

I mean the book says at the beginning of the chapter, "You might be able to pick new maneuvers from only a handful of disciplines." (pg 96, under Advancing Martial Progression/Martial Adepts/Maneuvers Known) So I assumed not, but my friend (the one playing it) assumed that it just gave it as a class school because it's the vindicator's class school. But if it is given to you, since it is a school of the RKV and not the Crusader, do the initiator levels stack or not?

[HunterOfJello]

I've been searching for this for a while and can't seem to find anyone with the same question as I do about it.

The ruby knight vindicator has maneuvers from the shadow hand stuff right, but it says you must meet the prereqs of getting any maneuvers or stances. One of the prereqs of getting shadow hand stuff is having initiator levels in swordsage.
So if you are a crusader/cleric, is it impossible to get the shadow hand stuff or does it treat it as a class school for the Crusader as well now?

I mean the book says at the beginning of the chapter, "You might be able to pick new maneuvers from only a handful of disciplines." (pg 96, under Advancing Martial Progression/Martial Adepts/Maneuvers Known) So I assumed not, but my friend (the one playing it) assumed that it just gave it as a class school because it's the vindicator's class school. But if it is given to you, since it is a school of the RKV and not the Crusader, do the initiator levels stack or not?

Tome of Battle prestige classes don't continue base classes progressions or maneuvers in the way that normal 3.5 PrCs continue a spellcaster's abilities.

RKV can learn Shadow Hand stances and maneuvers as long as they meet the prerequisites for those maneuvers. Being a Swordsage is not a prerequisite for learning Shadow Hand stances. You may want to reread the entire Blade Magic chapter because most people don't read that Tome of Battle section several times all the way through and then end up getting strange ideas about the entire book.

The prestige classes in Tome of Battle are usually very direct in their descriptions for learning new maneuvers.


Maneuvers: At each even-numbered level, you gain one
new maneuver known from the Devoted Spirit, Shadow
Hand, Stone Dragon, or White Raven disciplines. You must
meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it. You add your
full Ruby Knight vindicator levels to your initiator level to
determine your total initiator level and your highest-level
maneuvers known.

The RKV follows those instructions exactly. Your RKV level is added to your initiator level and you still have to meet the requirements for each maneuver that you learn.

As long as the character knows enough Shadow Hand maneuvers and has a high enough initiator level, then they can learn a Shadow Hand maneuver when they gain a level in RKV that allows them to do so. Swordsages have nothing to do with any of it.

[zephyrskye]

Just to clarify then, the crusader and the rkv il's stack even for shadow hand techniques yeah?

[Fax Celestis]

IOne of the prereqs of getting shadow hand stuff is having initiator levels in swordsage.

...no, it isn't. Go look at Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervating Strike and read the prerequisite line. It says "Five Shadow Hand maneuvers".

Now go look at Cloak of Deception. Note how the prerequisite line is absent. That is because there is no prerequisite for the maneuver. The only thing you need to take this maneuver is to either (1) take a level in a class that has Shadow Hand on its discipline access list (like, say, Ruby Knight Vindicator); or (2) take Martial Study.

[zephyrskye]

Thank you hunterofjello. I reread it and it makes more sense. There was just a block there for a second in my head that made it hard for me to understand it.

[Firechanter]

Good thing you got it now, still I feel the urge to add my two cents: :)

Consider those lines like "Swordsage 1" analog to spells on a spell list. For example, "Knock: Sor/Wiz 2". You don't have to be a Sor/Wiz, you just need to be a class that gets access to the Sor/Wiz spell list.

--

That said, when you take RKV be sure to sit down with your DM and figure out a fix for Divine Impetus. As written, it is useless, because as a (Su) ability without special mention of what action it costs, it defaults to Standard. Trading a Standard Action for a Swift is not a good thing.
Rather, ask to be allowed to use Divine Impetus as Free Action once per turn. That's pretty good. ;)

I'm also pretty sure that this way the way the ability was intended to function. The designers probably just forgot the "once per turn as a free action" bit.

[Curmudgeon]

That said, when you take RKV be sure to sit down with your DM and figure out a fix for Divine Impetus. As written, it is useless, because as a (Su) ability without special mention of what action it costs, it defaults to Standard. Trading a Standard Action for a Swift is not a good thing.
For every other class in the game there's a hard limit of 1 swift action per turn, and nobody can convert a standard action to a swift action. You think having the option to use a second swift action, even if it costs a standard action to do so, isn't a good thing?

[Firechanter]

Sure, it may be situationally useful, but it's not something I'd take 7 levels in a PrC for and lose several Caster Levels in the process.
The examples given in the description talk about initiating Boosts after having spent a Swift Action otherwise. Boosts affect Standard or Full-Round Actions. It would be pointless to initiate a Boost when you have nothing left to boost this round.

[strider24seven]

Sure, it may be situationally useful, but it's not something I'd take 7 levels in a PrC for and lose several Caster Levels in the process.
The examples given in the description talk about initiating Boosts after having spent a Swift Action otherwise. Boosts affect Standard or Full-Round Actions. It would be pointless to initiate a Boost when you have nothing left to boost this round.

Unless of course, you are playing the psionic action manipulation game. Which, to be fair, would be unusual for a RKV.

I have seen a gestalt Ardent//Crusader/UrPriest/RKV use Divine Impetus to great effect. Although we were playing with Divine Impetus as a free action. But dear Vecna... the actions...so many actions....

[Greenish]

Sure, it may be situationally useful, but it's not something I'd take 7 levels in a PrC for and lose several Caster Levels in the process.It's not the only thing RKV offers, though. Even sans Divine Impetus, having spellcasting and maneuver progressions makes for a fairly powerful character.