[PF]I think Alchemist have bed concept. isn't it?

[isildur]

I don't think alchemist is most powerfull class in the game, but it is extremly good at particular job.

For example, an 20 level half orc alchemist can deal (16d6+23)*8, average 632 damage.

Or he can cast 8 stinking cloud, which DC is 33.

Wizard can cast only 2(or 3, if you count contingency) spells, but high level alchemist can cast 5+ bombs.

Though, because of restricted resource and low diversity alchemist is not so powerfull. but it is bad design.

[Keneth]

Are we assuming an alchemist has an Int score of 46? Or where exactly does that +18 to damage and DC come from? :smallconfused:

Also, all those bombs have to hit to deal full damage. Not hard, obviously, but not trivial either. Not to mention you have to figure in energy resistance unless you're using force bombs.

And while we're at it, stinking cloud is a poison effect, which makes the majority of CR 20+ stuff immune to it to begin with. And those that aren't generally have Fortitude saves of about +25, so even if you manage to pump your DC that high, it's not a sure thing.

Mad bombers do have a lot of damage potential, but there are a hundred ways to make it hard for them. The design is just fine.

[Aemoh87]

I think it is better to look at classes for their progression. At 20th level everything is a wash usually.

[Gorfnod]

While we're at it, why not look at rogues. Those guys are the worst. They can sneak attack for 10d6 on EVERY HIT. You think bombs are bad, what about a rogue using the totally OP two weapon fighting. I mean really. SIX ATTACKS in one round, that is just way too many. To top it off, they can do this ALL DAY!! No limit. "Hey Mr. Wizard, whats that? You are out of spells? SNEAK ATTACK!! Muahahahhaha!!" If the wizard is Tier 1 then the rogue must be Tier 0.

[Psyren]

Alchemists are T3. Working as intended.

[isildur]

They can sneak attack for 10d6 on EVERY HIT.

They need flanking, flat foot or invisibility. alchemists need nothing.

and alchmist bombs are touch attack. rouge? well...

[isildur]

Are we assuming an alchemist has an Int score of 46? Or where exactly does that +18 to damage and DC come from? :smallconfused:.

aaah..... my mistake. it's +13 actually.

[Keneth]

They need flanking, flat foot or invisibility. alchemists need nothing.

and alchmist bombs are touch attack. rouge? well...

He was being sarcastic, as the issue you're presenting is not an issue at all. A fully optimized barbarian will easily match that kind of damage at level 20. Sorcerers come pretty damn close as well.

Comparing damage at lvl20 is not a measurement of the quality of class design.

[Gorfnod]

He was being sarcastic, as the issue you're presenting is not an issue at all.


Alas my sarcasm has failed to come through, I really need to work on that. But on a more serious note I have played two alchemists, one along the lines of the OP and one a more Mr. Hyde build using Vivisectionist/Feral Mutagen and I can assure you that neither one of them came anywhere close to being broken.

[Saidoro]

For example, an 20 level half orc alchemist can deal (16d6+23)*8, average 632 damage.

Or he can cast 8 stinking cloud, which DC is 33.

Wizard can cast only 2(or 3, if you count contingency) spells, but high level alchemist can cast 5+ bombs.

Though, because of restricted resource and low diversity alchemist is not so powerfull. but it is bad design.
Where are you getting that they can huck 8 or even 5 bombs a round? Throwing a bomb is a standard action.

[Psyren]

Where are you getting that they can huck 8 or even 5 bombs a round? Throwing a bomb is a standard action.

Fast Bombs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/fast-bombs)

But using it will burn through your allotment pretty... well, fast.

[Kudaku]

And with an intelligence modifier of +12 (34 int) he'll be able to throw 8 bombs for FOUR rounds before he's out for the day! FOUR ROUNDS! That's possibly an entire encounter!

[Keneth]

Fast Bombs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/fast-bombs)

Well, Fast Bombs (3) + Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (3) + Rapid Shot (1) + Haste (1) to be exact.

[Psyren]

Well, Fast Bombs (3) + Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (3) + Rapid Shot (1) + Haste (1) to be exact.

I figured (or hoped) he could connect the dots once I provided the most important missing link :smallbiggrin: (i.e. how to make bombs not be a standard.)

[angry_bear]

Alas my sarcasm has failed to come through, I really need to work on that. But on a more serious note I have played two alchemists, one along the lines of the OP and one a more Mr. Hyde build using Vivisectionist/Feral Mutagen and I can assure you that neither one of them came anywhere close to being broken.

Doesn't seem like he's saying the class is broken though, just that they're pretty good at what they do...

Alchemist looks like it could be fun, but I don't think I'd want to play one long term. Short term campaign, or a one shot maybe.

[Keneth]

Alchemist bombs are kind of a special area, seeing as they're a ranged weapon, but you can dual-wield them so to speak. I felt that providing the whole equation would save him (or anyone else) some headscratching.

[Person_Man]

Alchemists are T3. Working as intended.

+1

The Alchemist is good at his job (throwing cool bombs), and has just enough spells and other abilities that he's not worthless in situations where throwing bombs isn't useful. As it should be.

[ryu]

Also where is the bed concept? I was expecting some kind eternal life sleeping potion made from quintessence or some such nonsense.

[Saidoro]

I figured (or hoped) he could connect the dots once I provided the most important missing link :smallbiggrin: (i.e. how to make bombs not be a standard.)
Yeah, I got it. Though I am curious what would lead the FAQ writer to assume that assembling an explosive compound is a one handed task. Either way, the bombs are going to be highly inaccurate even as touch attacks, and nothing that a properly metamagiced Battering blast can't compete with. And that can be done with your relatively plentiful 5th and 6th level spell slots rather than being usable 4 rounds per day. Hardly the only high power option Paizo has inadvertently published.

[lsfreak]

Also where is the bed concept?

I'd make a guess isildur is not a native English speaker; the "short e" sound and the "short a" sound are, acoustically, extremely close together and it's not uncommon for non-native speakers to have a lot of trouble telling the two apart. Similar in many ways to how Japanese/Koreans often have trouble with r/l, and may have trouble putting the right letter in the right word.
Assuming it's not just a mistype.
/takingthejokeseriously

EDIT: To add something on-topic, nova-bility is possibly poor design; look at how the paladin's Smite Evil in 3.X is often derided because it encourages you to save them for a boss fight and unleash them all at once. However, from what little I know of Pathfinder, alchemists fall closer to psions, in that they can build themselves to deliver massive amounts of damage in a short time, but they also have enough resources to be flexible in most situations and they don't really benefit hoarding the same way 3.X's paladin does.

[Ninja_Grand]

Well, on the other side of the copper the Alchemist can fight as well with mutagen. Build it right and you can kick a lota butt, and use you not-spells for out of combat.

T3. Same as rouge and such. How and what you do out of combat can change your tier.

[Person_Man]

T3. Same as rouge and such. How and what you do out of combat can change your tier.

Though I agree with your general point, and know that the PF Rogue is a dramatic improvement over the 3.5 Rogue, I would argue that the Pathfinder Rogue is still Tier 4.

Every round of almost every combat, the PF Rogue basically tries to trigger Sneak Attack and make a full attack action. Once selected, Rogue Talents can't be changed (unlike spells/powers/alchemy/etc), which limits their flexibility. And Rogue Talents in general can be boiled down to "stab harder" or "use a Skill slightly better" - and the most useful Talents tend to have very strict daily limits.

The Rogue is good for trap finding, scout, and party face options outside of combat are very handy. But due to changes in the Skill system (everyone has Perception, you don't need Trapfinding to notice magical traps, Invisibility grants a bonus to Stealth, it's much harder to use Diplomacy to make people Helpful, you can still get large Skill bonuses from various spells and magic items, etc) the Rogue is not dramatically better at those things then many other classes. Skills are just a lot more universal in Pathfinder then they were in 3.5, which means that they're not really that much of a niche for anyone.

So it's an improvement, especially if you jigger it a round with enough Archetypes (tier 4 and a half?) but I wouldn't say that the Pathfinder Rogue is on par with other Tier 3 Skill Monkeys, like the Psychic Rogue, Factotum, Beguiler, Wildshape Ranger, Bard, etc.