Most poorly priced magic items.

[Invader]

There are quite a few very mispriced magic items and I was trying to find the worst. Off the top of my head theres: A +5 weapon and Dust of sneezing and choking


Any other really bad offenders?

[Segev]

The Psicrown of the Astral Legion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psicrowns.htm#astralLegion) doesn't seem to follow the rules for an item of it's ML.

I also think the Rod of Lordly Might is way too expensive for what it does, despite it following the rules. It's a cool item, but by the time it's reasonable to have, it's underwhelming.

[Shining Wrath]

Bag of Tricks is overpriced at 10 GP.
Bead of Force is under priced at 3000 GP since it can be used to effectively shut down many creatures for 10 minutes. Fail a DC 16 Reflex save and you get to come out facing an enemy with every imaginable buff applied surrounding you.

[strider24seven]

Eggshell Grenade, Dust
From Oriental Adventures. Mundane, no save blind on a creature for 10gp.

[Alabenson]

I'm surprised that Candle of Invocation hasn't been brought up yet, considering that its generally considered one of the most broken items in the game due to how underpriced it is.

[Douglas]

Ring of Regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#regeneration). 90,000 gp for... approximately Cure Moderate Wounds 1/hour, if you're level 20?

[faircoin]

Enchanted shurikens. Summon an elder elemental 1/day for 2000gp! Buy more to get more summons per day!

[Greenish]

It is not the most egregious example, but Rod of Ropes is just a tad too pricy to find it's way on my character sheets. If it were more expensive, I could just shrug it off as another cool item made useless by the price, and if it were cheaper, I'd be able to make some room for it in my budget, but as it is, I'll just agonize over it for a while before giving it a pass.


Alas, I'm a skinflint, and others surely pick one up whenever there's a chance.

[Karoht]

In this context I will take poorly priced to mean inconsistant. Take the following comparison.
Gloves of the Master Strategist VS Gloves of Storing.
GoMS = 3K
Does everything the Gloves of Storing does. And includes True Strike 1/Day. I don't recall if that True Strike activation is a Swift or Standard action, but there it is. Pretty sure it's a Standard. Stil, pretty awesomely priced for 3K.
Gloves of Storing = 10K
Allows you to store 1 item, retrievable as either a move or a swift action, I forget which.

Yeah.

[Beleron]

The comparative prices of wands and scrolls make no sense.

[RustyArmor]

I always felt the infinite food/water items were way to cheap. I know some (if not most) ignore food/water stuff, but I always try to put and importance on it as part of trying to survive the world.

[demigodus]

Enchanted shurikens. Summon an elder elemental 1/day for 2000gp! Buy more to get more summons per day!

Could you explain this one? I'm not familiar with this trick. Sounds hilarious.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Could you explain this one? I'm not familiar with this trick. Sounds hilarious.

Shuriken are enchanted using the rules for ammunition so they cost 1/50 of the usual price of a magic weapon. That makes them an ideal and cheap platform for weapon enhancements if you don't intend to use the weapon to hit anything (Warning, Defending, Spellstriking, etc.). Elemental Summoning enhancements are in DMG 2 iirc.

[Darrin]

In this context I will take poorly priced to mean inconsistant. Take the following comparison.
Gloves of the Master Strategist VS Gloves of Storing.
GoMS = 3K
Does everything the Gloves of Storing does. And includes True Strike 1/Day. I don't recall if that True Strike activation is a Swift or Standard action, but there it is. Pretty sure it's a Standard. Stil, pretty awesomely priced for 3K.
Gloves of Storing = 10K


It should be noted that the Glove of the Master Strategist comes from a 3.0 book, and is based on the 3.0 price for a Glove of Storing (2200 GP). When the 3.5 DMG came out, someone thought certain magic item were underpriced, and the price shot up to 10k, which is now somewhat widely regarded as horribly overpriced.

When the 3.5 update for Ghostwalk was released, it's probably likely that the editors/designers forgot about the change in prices. But I really do prefer the 3600 GP price, as it corrects the idiocy of jacking up the price to 10k. The true strike effect shouldn't have much of an effect on cost: a 1st level spell as a command word 1/day should only cost 360 GP.

[nolongerchaos]

The Healing Belt from MIC is priced at 750gp and essentially functions as a potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (without the hp bonus from CL) 3/day, which is quite a steal considering 3 potions of Cure Mod cost 150 more gp, and are each only usable once...

[Vedhin]

Blindhelm from the MiC. Just look at the item immediately above, the Blindfold of True Darkness. The helm gives you blindsense 5ft and a save bonus vs gaze attacks. The blindfold gives you blindsight 30ft and immunity to gaze attacks, with the drwaback of negating your normal vision. The Blindhelm is significantly more expensive, despite being almost completely worse.

Also, the Sudden Stunning weapon ability from the DMGII. +2,000gp for a Cha bonus times per day, 1d4+1 rounds duration stun, with a scaling Reflex save based on your HD and Charisma bonus. Way underpriced.

[Karoht]

The Healing Belt from MIC is priced at 750gp and essentially functions as a potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (without the hp bonus from CL) 3/day, which is quite a steal considering 3 potions of Cure Mod cost 150 more gp, and are each only usable once...Comparing a single use item to a multi use item is a bit of an odd comparison, but this is definitely one of those cases where I completely agree.
Then again, I'm pretty sure that WotC made potion pricing in such a way as to make healing potions a bit of a trap. Waste an action, heals poorly, costs too much. Just my opinion mind you.



Blindhelm from the MiC. Just look at the item immediately above, the Blindfold of True Darkness. The helm gives you blindsense 5ft and a save bonus vs gaze attacks. The blindfold gives you blindsight 30ft and immunity to gaze attacks, with the drawaback of negating your normal vision. The Blindhelm is significantly more expensive, despite being almost completely worse.Yeup, that one made no sense to me either.


Also, the Sudden Stunning weapon ability from the DMGII. +2,000gp for a Cha bonus times per day, 1d4+1 rounds duration stun, with a scaling Reflex save based on your HD and Charisma bonus. Way underpriced....
Must...
Not...
Convince... DM... to... let... my... Ninja/Bard... ...HAVE!!!

Honestly, that could be x10 the price, and it would still be a bargain.

[Rubik]

I always felt the infinite food/water items were way to cheap. I know some (if not most) ignore food/water stuff, but I always try to put and importance on it as part of trying to survive the world.Really? Food costs, at most, a couple of silver pieces per day, a mediocre Survival check, or a low level spell. Spending more than a handful of gold on infinite food is a waste unless you're trapped somewhere without food for more than a few days (and don't have magic of any kind available).

[Segev]

I'm pretty sure that WotC made potion pricing in such a way as to make healing potions a bit of a trap. Waste an action, heals poorly, costs too much.

I've always thought potions should, at least, take only a move-action to quaff.

[Firechanter]

Hank's Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a), of course.

Here we have a bow that is roughly equivalent to a +2 Force Longbow, plus the auto-adjusting "Mighty" and the unique "Power Shot" Ability. Also, the Force arrows do more damage than usual (2d6 instead of 1d8), _and_ to top it off you don't even need any ammo at all (which means you can never run out).

Cost given, 22,600GP.

Since Force is a +2 property, the bow should at the very least cost as much as a +4 weapon -- 32.000GP. And that's not even counting the extra properties and boons. 35.000GP would be a very fair price.

[JaronK]

Could you explain this one? I'm not familiar with this trick. Sounds hilarious.

Specifically, see here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11763.0

Enchanted Shurikens can make absolutely insane weapons. My favorite involves Morphing Shurikens... turn them into Kukris and go to town!

JaronK

[Onigato]

I always felt the Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 was ridiculously overpriced.

[eggynack]

The Healing Belt from MIC is priced at 750gp and essentially functions as a potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (without the hp bonus from CL) 3/day, which is quite a steal considering 3 potions of Cure Mod cost 150 more gp, and are each only usable once...
A wand of cure light wounds is a better comparison for healing purposes. That's 275 HP for 750 GP. A healing belt heals 27 HP a day, so that's about ten days until you hit the healing of the wand. However, the wand can be used as many or as few times as you want in a day. An even better healing item is a wand of lesser vigor. That one heals 550 GP, so it takes 20.37 days for the belt to match the healing of the wand. The belt is more effective in combat, but the belt is once again limited to a specific amount of healing, which is problematic. Ultimately, the belt isn't necessarily the best healing item for its price, so I wouldn't necessarily call it underpriced. I'd probably get a wand of lesser vigor, and back it up with a healing belt to fill in the gaps.

[Greenish]

I always felt the Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 was ridiculously overpriced.WotC's naming logic being what it is, Amulet of Mighty Fists is good for creatures that have several natural attacks (it's three times the price of similarly enchanted weapon), while Necklace of Natural Weapons is better for actually hitting people with your fists.

Of course, AoMF is the one that's in the core, because monk is such a strong class (no dead levels!!!!!!).

[aleucard]

Shuriken are enchanted using the rules for ammunition so they cost 1/50 of the usual price of a magic weapon. That makes them an ideal and cheap platform for weapon enhancements if you don't intend to use the weapon to hit anything (Warning, Defending, Spellstriking, etc.). Elemental Summoning enhancements are in DMG 2 iirc.

That sounds like the kind of broken that spawned the term munchkin in the first place. That is IMPRESSIVELY short-sighted for the devs; all that would've had to be done is make certain relevant adjustments have normal cost at least on thrown weapons and be impossible to apply to ammo (arrows, bolts, etc.). Granted, it's not the worst offender I've heard of, but ****ing Hell.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That sounds like the kind of broken that spawned the term munchkin in the first place. That is IMPRESSIVELY short-sighted for the devs; all that would've had to be done is make certain relevant adjustments have normal cost at least on thrown weapons and be impossible to apply to ammo (arrows, bolts, etc.). Granted, it's not the worst offender I've heard of, but ****ing Hell.

That's what you have a DM for. No reasonable DM is going to let you get a bunch of super-cheap shuriken of awesome in a normal game, no matter how often you tell him it's RAW.

[kkplx]

The comparative prices of wands and scrolls make no sense.

Why would you say that? You get a 60% discount if you cast spells from a Wand instead of a Scroll, but you have to buy 50 charges upfront - if your GM doesn't let you cherrypick or craft less than 50 charge wands, that's a fair tradeoff.

[demigodus]

Shuriken are enchanted using the rules for ammunition so they cost 1/50 of the usual price of a magic weapon. That makes them an ideal and cheap platform for weapon enhancements if you don't intend to use the weapon to hit anything (Warning, Defending, Spellstriking, etc.). Elemental Summoning enhancements are in DMG 2 iirc.

Thank you. I knew about the reduced cost, but not about the elemental summoning enhancements

This sounds ridiculously hilarious.

[Segev]

"Manifester" is a ludicrously powerful tag to put on ammo, if you abuse that particular rule.

Personally, the only version of the typical abuses I tend to argue for keeping is spell-storing; the others don't treat them like weapons, anymore, but like permanent magic items of some sort that are not USED as weapons. Spell-storing is made greatly efficient by applying it to ammo, but it IS expended.

[Slipperychicken]

Really? Food costs, at most, a couple of silver pieces per day, a mediocre Survival check, or a low level spell. Spending more than a handful of gold on infinite food is a waste unless you're trapped somewhere without food for more than a few days (and don't have magic of any kind available).

Most dnd games either ignore food price and weight entirely, or simply don't take place on the kind of timescale for such items to really pay off. They would be tremendously useful for an organization like an army, which intends to operate in perpetuity and wants to cut down its supply-lines' costs and vulnerability as much as possible.


Everlasting Rations would pay itself off cost-wise after roughly 9 and a half years in less than two years, and means you don't have to carry all that food with you or worry about spoilage. So it would be great for something like a planar expedition, feeding sailors, or a situation where you simply don't have storage space for all the food you need.

Field Provisions Box (2000gp, MiC, feeds 15 men per day), is far more efficient than the Everlasting Rations, and pays itself off in roughly 36 years less than a year, but that's much less if you include the costs to move all that food to a campaigning force, protect the supply line, lose some to corruption, and so on. Also weighs only one pound, convenient compared to the weight of several days' rations.

Math
Cost of rations: 5 silver per day, every day. I'll call that 0.5 gold. It takes 7.5 gold to feed 15 people each day.

Everlasting Rations. 1 person, 350gp. So 350 gold/0.5 = 700 days. Pays off in less than two years.

Field Provisions Box. 15 men for 2,000gp. For this, 2,000/7.5 = 266.67 days. So it's even more efficient.

[nolongerchaos]

A wand of cure light wounds is a better comparison for healing purposes. That's 275 HP for 750 GP. A healing belt heals 27 HP a day, so that's about ten days until you hit the healing of the wand. However, the wand can be used as many or as few times as you want in a day. An even better healing item is a wand of lesser vigor. That one heals 550 GP, so it takes 20.37 days for the belt to match the healing of the wand. The belt is more effective in combat, but the belt is once again limited to a specific amount of healing, which is problematic. Ultimately, the belt isn't necessarily the best healing item for its price, so I wouldn't necessarily call it underpriced. I'd probably get a wand of lesser vigor, and back it up with a healing belt to fill in the gaps.

A fair point, but I'm looking at the Belt from the eyes of someone who would actually resort to poitions, i.e. low level arcane casters or fighters, whereas the wands have a better gold to healing ratio, but are more selective as to who can actually use them, whereas potions and the belt don't require specific spell lists or UMD.

[eggynack]

A fair point, but I'm looking at the Belt from the eyes of someone who would actually resort to poitions, i.e. low level arcane casters or fighters, whereas the wands have a better gold to healing ratio, but are more selective as to who can actually use them, whereas potions and the belt don't require specific spell lists or UMD.
Well, if you're claiming that potions of cure moderate wounds are underpowered, that's a logical claim to make. However, if you're arguing that healing belts are overpowered, you need to compare it to high tier healing items rather than potions. Belts certainly have advantages over wands, but it's nowhere near a strict upgrade.

[Firechanter]

Most dnd games either ignore food price and weight entirely

Yeah. D&D just isn't made for that kind of smalltime accounting. There are players who enjoy keeping track of every slice of bread, but to those, I recommend different systems. Just like you don't need to lug around a bundle of torches, because a perpetual Light item costs 20GP.


Everlasting Rations would pay itself off cost-wise after roughly 9 and a half years, [...]
Field Provisions Box (2000gp, MiC, feeds 15 men per day) pays itself off in roughly 36 years,


Wait, those numbers must be off somewhere.
Everlasting Rations cost 350GP, right?
If we compare that to (certainly overpriced) trail rations, that would pay off after two years.
Supplying the equivalent of 15 persons, the box costs only some 135GP per person, so it would pay off after less than a year. (A party of 4 with no mounts obviously doesn't need it.)
Adjust these write-offs for the factor that trail rations (5sp/day) are overpriced.

BTW, for highlevel characters, I'd recommend a custom magic item that can produce a Heroes' Feast 1/day. Should cost around 24.000GP, but you can split the cost between the party, and ~6000GP per person doesn't sound too shabby for all its effects.

[tyckspoon]

BTW, for highlevel characters, I'd recommend a custom magic item that can produce a Heroes' Feast 1/day. Should cost around 24.000GP, but you can split the cost between the party, and ~6000GP per person doesn't sound too shabby for all its effects.

Magic Item Compendium, Horn of Plenty, 12k. :smalltongue:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Bag of Tricks is overpriced at 10 GP.


Gray is actually a good deal as a source of trap springers. Ten uses a week is better than two uses a day and the 10 minute duration and it being usable without spellcasting ability or UMD.


Enchanted shurikens. Summon an elder elemental 1/day for 2000gp! Buy more to get more summons per day!

Could you explain this one? I'm not familiar with this trick. Sounds hilarious.

I'm guessing using ammunition pricing that's normally mediocre-lame.

[Trinoya]

Lyre of building is one of the most absurd items in standard 3.5/pathfinder. It costs virtually nothing for the effects it is capable of doing, it is very easy to use, it stacks well with one of my favorite classes (lyrist), and it is written in a very generalized tone that basically allows for all sorts of shenanigans.

I always buy one. Most DMs hate it when I say, "screw this nation, I'ma build my own! :smallmad:"

And then I do.... :smallcool:

[aleucard]

That's what you have a DM for. No reasonable DM is going to let you get a bunch of super-cheap shuriken of awesome in a normal game, no matter how often you tell him it's RAW.

Biggest problem in relying on that is that not every dm will catch this **** every time it comes up, and it's irritating on several levels to redo an encounter at best once the problems become evident, or possibly even more if it starts slow. I'm the kind of person that wants EVERY option to be useful for someone, and things like this make that one option too much larger than anything comparable (any feat a caster with crafting ability would take in this case). Even if no munchkins are involved, this crap can happen by pure accident, albeit most often with inexperienced or inattentive players. That is unacceptable.

[Karoht]

That's what you have a DM for. No reasonable DM is going to let you get a bunch of super-cheap shuriken of awesome in a normal game, no matter how often you tell him it's RAW.
That's like saying that there's a ref to call out when people try and cheat in sports.
Then there's the old motto, "If you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin"
Some people greatly enjoy trying to sneak stuff like this past their DM. Then saying "surprise, your world is wrecked now!"
(obvious exaggeration is obvious)

But hey, that shouldn't ruin everyone's fun. I'm sure there is a non-game breaking usage for shurikens which summon (elder?) fire elementals on someone's face. I'm just hard pressed to figure out what that use might be.

[Firechanter]

Magic Item Compendium, Horn of Plenty, 12k. :smalltongue:

Cool, so that's another entry for this list, as it costs only half of what it should cost per creation guidelines. xD

[SowZ]

Most dnd games either ignore food price and weight entirely, or simply don't take place on the kind of timescale for such items to really pay off. They would be tremendously useful for an organization like an army, which intends to operate in perpetuity and wants to cut down its supply-lines' costs and vulnerability as much as possible.


Everlasting Rations would pay itself off cost-wise after roughly 9 and a half years, and means you don't have to carry all that food with you or worry about spoilage. So it would be great for something like a planar expedition, feeding sailors, or a situation where you simply don't have storage space for all the food you need.

Field Provisions Box (2000gp, MiC, feeds 15 men per day) pays itself off in roughly 36 years, but that's much less if you include the costs to move all that food to a campaigning force, protect the supply line, lose some to corruption, and so on. Also weighs only one pound, convenient compared to the weight of several days' rations.

Also, no stopping over in towns to buy food, no wondering if your troops can do a forced march for that long because they can't carry enough rations, etc.

[SowZ]

Vorpal. Any Spell Resistance armor enhancement.

[Slipperychicken]

Wait, those numbers must be off somewhere.

You're right. I assumed rations costed one silver a day, when they're really five. I'll edit that post.


Let's re-do the math:

Cost of rations: 5 silver per day, every day. I'll call that 0.5 gold. It takes 7.5 gold to feed 15 people each day.

Everlasting Rations. 1 person, 350gp. So 350 gold/0.5 = 700 days. Pays off in less than two years.

Field Provisions Box. 15 men for 2,000gp. For this, 2,000/7.5 = 266.67 days.

[JaronK]

Everlasting Rations. 1 person, 350gp. So 350 gold/0.5 = 700 days. Pays off in less than two years.

Field Provisions Box. 15 men for 2,000gp. For this, 2,000/7.5 = 266.67 days.

Note there's also the Everful Larder from Stronghold Builder's Guide, which provides an endless supply of food for any number of people (so long as you can distribute all of it). It's more costly than either of those options.

JaronK

[Slipperychicken]

Note there's also the Everful Larder from Stronghold Builder's Guide, which provides an endless supply of food for any number of people (so long as you can distribute all of it). It's more costly than either of those options.

JaronK

Wow. An infinite food shenanigan which doesn't require DM-approval of custom traps. That's pretty sweet. Just position it so the food falls out onto a conveyor belt as soon as you open it, and find a way to open/close it really fast.

Now all you need to do is find a way to make that mobile, like putting it on wheels or something, then you can pretty much feed an army with it.

[watchwood]

Ring of Regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#regeneration). 90,000 gp for... approximately Cure Moderate Wounds 1/hour, if you're level 20?

The reason the ring is so expensive is because it duplicates the limb regenerating effects of the Regenerate spell, which is a 7th level spell.

[SowZ]

The reason the ring is so expensive is because it duplicates the limb regenerating effects of the Regenerate spell, which is a 7th level spell.

Except almost all limb loss is a house ruling in D&D, anyway, since the only way it is going to happen is through DM fiat or if you are helpless/unconscious and someone intentionally lops it off.

[Slipperychicken]

Except almost all limb loss is a house ruling in D&D, anyway, since the only way it is going to happen is through DM fiat or if you are helpless/unconscious and someone intentionally lops it off.

Don't Aboleths have an ability which makes your limbs horrible and useless?

Vorpal chops your head off.

[SowZ]

Don't Aboleths have an ability which makes your limbs horrible and useless?

Vorpal chops your head off.

Which Regeneration cannot heal. Only Remove Disease, Heal, or Mass Heal will fix the Aboleth attack.

Regeneration doesn't help your head being lopped off.

[Segev]

Sharpness, Vorpal's little brother, will take off limbs.

[Sith_Happens]

Cool, so that's another entry for this list, as it costs only half of what it should cost per creation guidelines. xD

Except it's in the book with a quarter-page sidebar basically saying that the DMG pricing guidelines are bad and the people who wrote them should feel bad.

[erikun]

I like the idea behind the Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bowlofCommandingWaterElementals) (and (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#brazierofCommandingFireElemental s) related (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#censerofControllingAirElementals ) items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#stoneofControllingEarthElemental s)) but the price is pretty expensive.

[Bickerstaff]

Except almost all limb loss is a house ruling in D&D, anyway, since the only way it is going to happen is through DM fiat or if you are helpless/unconscious and someone intentionally lops it off.

I'm running a Kingmaker (PF adventure path) currently, and one of the level 2 players was feeling cocky while walking through a forest filled with bear traps. They had been walking through this forest and kept finding these traps (Perception DC was really low. Like 12 or something), and so they decided to put the person with the highest Perception in front so they could see them all coming.

And then he said "I intentionally fail my Perception check".

Now, I should mention that the class was full of casters (a Telepath Psion, a Cloistered Cleric, and a Sorcerer). All level 2. They thought it wouldn't hurt not to have some muscle at low levels. And these bear traps were written with a +10 bonus to hit (no Ref save) and 2d6 damage.

So, the Cleric steps on the trap, I roll the attack (was like a 14, but these casters had no armor anyway), and then roll damage. A 12, dang (I'm not out for blood, but I let the dice fall how they will). The Cleric (with like 9 health) collapses with a bear trap on his leg.

What ensues is the party frantically making Heal checks to stop the bleeding, and trying to figure out how to pry off the trap (that required a Str check none of them could make, or a Disable Device check none of them had trained), and trying to figure out how to heal the Cleric with no Cleric.

Eventually they decided that they would lop off the leg and call it a day.

The Cleric's player was not amused.

[watchwood]

Except almost all limb loss is a house ruling in D&D, anyway, since the only way it is going to happen is through DM fiat or if you are helpless/unconscious and someone intentionally lops it off.

Doesn't change the fact that it can happen, or that there are very few ways in which to fix it.

[Syncrogti]

Then again, I'm pretty sure that WotC made potion pricing in such a way as to make healing potions a bit of a trap. Waste an action, heals poorly, costs too much.

Would you say this is offset by the fact that anyone can use it, not just someone with UMD or a caster?

[Coidzor]

I'm running a Kingmaker (PF adventure path) currently, and one of the level 2 players was feeling cocky while walking through a forest filled with bear traps. They had been walking through this forest and kept finding these traps (Perception DC was really low. Like 12 or something), and so they decided to put the person with the highest Perception in front so they could see them all coming.

And then he said "I intentionally fail my Perception check".

Now, I should mention that the class was full of casters (a Telepath Psion, a Cloistered Cleric, and a Sorcerer). All level 2. They thought it wouldn't hurt not to have some muscle at low levels. And these bear traps were written with a +10 bonus to hit (no Ref save) and 2d6 damage.

So, the Cleric steps on the trap, I roll the attack (was like a 14, but these casters had no armor anyway), and then roll damage. A 12, dang (I'm not out for blood, but I let the dice fall how they will). The Cleric (with like 9 health) collapses with a bear trap on his leg.

What ensues is the party frantically making Heal checks to stop the bleeding, and trying to figure out how to pry off the trap (that required a Str check none of them could make, or a Disable Device check none of them had trained), and trying to figure out how to heal the Cleric with no Cleric.

Eventually they decided that they would lop off the leg and call it a day.

The Cleric's player was not amused.

Did he ever explain whatever possessed him to do that? Or them all to manage to fail their own perception checks? :smallconfused:

[Invader]

I'm running a Kingmaker (PF adventure path) currently, and one of the level 2 players was feeling cocky while walking through a forest filled with bear traps. They had been walking through this forest and kept finding these traps (Perception DC was really low. Like 12 or something), and so they decided to put the person with the highest Perception in front so they could see them all coming.

And then he said "I intentionally fail my Perception check".

Now, I should mention that the class was full of casters (a Telepath Psion, a Cloistered Cleric, and a Sorcerer). All level 2. They thought it wouldn't hurt not to have some muscle at low levels. And these bear traps were written with a +10 bonus to hit (no Ref save) and 2d6 damage.

So, the Cleric steps on the trap, I roll the attack (was like a 14, but these casters had no armor anyway), and then roll damage. A 12, dang (I'm not out for blood, but I let the dice fall how they will). The Cleric (with like 9 health) collapses with a bear trap on his leg.

What ensues is the party frantically making Heal checks to stop the bleeding, and trying to figure out how to pry off the trap (that required a Str check none of them could make, or a Disable Device check none of them had trained), and trying to figure out how to heal the Cleric with no Cleric.

Eventually they decided that they would lop off the leg and call it a day.

The Cleric's player was not amused.

Please try to stick to topic of the thread :smallwink:

[Bickerstaff]

Did he ever explain whatever possessed him to do that? Or them all to manage to fail their own perception checks? :smallconfused:

Like I said, he was feeling confident. He said he just wanted to see what they did.

Also, on-topic: most items created with the custom magic item rules are sorely underpriced. An example that comes immediately to mind is an item of continuous Wraithstrike.

[SowZ]

Sharpness, Vorpal's little brother, will take off limbs.

Isn't that AD&D? Also, I would prefer Sharpness to Vorpal assume they were priced the same. A 15% chance against medium creatures, (or 10% chance for large+ creatures,) to remove a limb or a 5% chance to insta-kill? I'll take limb removal.

[Captnq]

Enchanted shurikens. Summon an elder elemental 1/day for 2000gp! Buy more to get more summons per day!

Except that any WSA that uses charges cannot be used in ammunition.

Or if you have a DM that is crazy enough to allow it, when you use up the 1/day, you use up the 1/day for every unit of ammunition. Which means if you hand out the 50 arrows to your friends, the first one to use it in a 24 hour period gets the elder elemental. So if you only bought one shuriken, that means that there is only a 2% chance each day that you're the guy who gets to use it first.

[SowZ]

Except that any WSA that uses charges cannot be used in ammunition.

Or if you have a DM that is crazy enough to allow it, when you use up the 1/day, you use up the 1/day for every unit of ammunition. Which means if you hand out the 50 arrows to your friends, the first one to use it in a 24 hour period gets the elder elemental. So if you only bought one shuriken, that means that there is only a 2% chance each day that you're the guy who gets to use it first.

You mean you wouldn't let me put lucky on my arrows?

[Averis Vol]

I've always thought potions should, at least, take only a move-action to quaff.

If you must use potions, the Masterwork Potion Vest from players guide to faerun costs 65ish gold and lets you drink one potion a round as a free action. It holds 10 potions or 3 if you get the non MW version.

[Slipperychicken]

If you must use potions, the Masterwork Potion Vest from players guide to faerun costs 65ish gold and lets you drink one potion a round as a free action. It holds 10 potions or 3 if you get the non MW version.

Isn't there a beer hat in Dragon Magazine which does something similar? Just enchant that thing with whatever magic you want and enjoy your free-action potions on the side.



Also, on-topic: most items created with the custom magic item rules are sorely underpriced. An example that comes immediately to mind is an item of continuous Wraithstrike.

Thankfully, those rules do have a saving grace.


Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

[SowZ]

Isn't there a beer hat in Dragon Magazine which does something similar? Just enchant that thing with whatever magic you want and enjoy your free-action potions on the side.



Thankfully, those rules do have a saving grace.

Yeah, an item of continuous true strike should be priced as an item that gives a +20 attack bonus, not as one that casts a level one spell.

[Silva Stormrage]

I think Shadow Cloak (Drow of the Underdark I believe) which gives +1 deflection bonus and 3/day immediate action teleport for 5.5k is ludicrously cheap.

Same with Belt of Battle for 12k. +2 Init and getting a standard action as a swift is amazing for that price.

[Devronq]

Could you explain this one? I'm not familiar with this trick. Sounds hilarious.

I would just like to add that Ive heard people mention that their technically isn't a rule stating your allowed to make less than 50 of them at a time so its a little bit what your DM allows

[Slipperychicken]

I would just like to add that Ive heard people mention that their technically isn't a rule stating your allowed to make less than 50 of them at a time so its a little bit what your DM allows

I also think it's a logical interpretation that you can buy less than 50 at a time. I mean, why couldn't you? It would be like going to a merchant and being told you can only buy arrows in units of 20 because that's what the rulebook has a price for.

[Devronq]

I also think it's a logical interpretation that you can buy less than 50 at a time. I mean, why couldn't you? It would be like going to a merchant and being told you can only buy arrows in units of 20 because that's what the rulebook has a price for.

Ya but whats the chances of the black smith having such a specific shruken you want in stock? He probably doesn't and even he could make it for you Im sure he'd insist on you buying the whole group of 50 that he now has to make for you.

[Morphie]

If you must use potions, the Masterwork Potion Vest from players guide to faerun costs 65ish gold and lets you drink one potion a round as a free action. It holds 10 potions or 3 if you get the non MW version.

I'm sorry for quoting, but I've looked for that item on the book you mentioned and I couldn't find it. Aren't you probably confusing that item with the MW version of the potion belt in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book? That one specifies that you can retrieve a potion as a free action, but not drink it as such, having to spend an action as usual.

[Slipperychicken]

Ya but whats the chances of the black smith having such a specific shruken you want in stock? He probably doesn't and even he could make it for you Im sure he'd insist on you buying the whole group of 50 that he now has to make for you.

That makes sense, if it's a highly specialized shuriken and he can only craft batches of 50 at a time.

[Pickford]

The comparative prices of wands and scrolls make no sense.

Wands can't be higher than 3rd level spells and have 50 charges, scrolls can be any level and have 1 charge. That's why.

[Slipperychicken]

Wands can't be higher than 3rd level spells and have 50 charges, scrolls can be any level and have 1 charge. That's why.

Wands are also easier to use. Any spellcaster who has the spell on his list (even if he can't cast it normally) can activate it without fail, and the UMD DC is lower.

Scrolls, on the other hand, require a caster level check if you aren't a high enough level to cast it. They also have a higher UMD DC, and might mishap on you if you fail.

[Ravens_cry]

Dust of sneezing and choking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChokinghttp://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking). Yes, it is a cursed item, but its curse is more awesome (as a weapon) than the 'normal' counterpart is. Sure, they are likely to pass the saves, but a minimum of five rounds of stun is nothing to sneeze at. Amd guess what, it's an area effect!
All for the low, low price of 2,499 GP, plus 1gp shipping and handling.
Order Now!

[kkplx]

Wands can't be higher than 3rd level spells and have 50 charges, scrolls can be any level and have 1 charge. That's why.

Wands go up to level 4. And can theoretically be bought AND made with less than full charges.

[Raendyn]

Yeah, an item of continuous true strike should be priced as an item that gives a +20 attack bonus, not as one that casts a level one spell.

You missed the 2nd part of the spell that it says it ends when you attack....

Continuous or not..

[Mnemnosyne]

I also think it's a logical interpretation that you can buy less than 50 at a time. I mean, why couldn't you? It would be like going to a merchant and being told you can only buy arrows in units of 20 because that's what the rulebook has a price for.
As soon as you start using logic like this, go ahead and chuck out the pricing, too. Because the correct price becomes 'whatever the market will bear' because that is the logical interpretation. And just because you used a trick to make 50x of a tremendously useful weapon for the same price as making one, you're not going to sell it at 1/50th the cost, because people will still pay far more, because they are useful enough.

[Telok]

It is also possible to rule that magical ammunition is still ammunition and keeps all the ammo breakage rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#ammunition) no matter it's current shape or enchantment.

[TuggyNE]

It is also possible to rule that magical ammunition is still ammunition and keeps all the ammo breakage rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#ammunition) no matter it's current shape or enchantment.

Undeniably it does; the trick works despite taking that fully into account. After all, shuriken you never throw can never break, right?

[nedz]

Sharpness, Vorpal's little brother, will take off limbs.
Do you have a 3.5 Source for this ?
I know it was an item in AD&D.



Yeah, an item of continuous true strike should be priced as an item that gives a +20 attack bonus, not as one that casts a level one spell.You missed the 2nd part of the spell that it says it ends when you attack....

Continuous or not..

Which is why you make it Use activated rather than continuous.

[Greenish]

Also, on-topic: most items created with the custom magic item rules are sorely underpriced. An example that comes immediately to mind is an item of continuous Wraithstrike.Well, they aren't custom magic item rules, they're guidelines for making custom items.

Like other WotC houserule suggestions (like arcane swordsage or "druids should totally get a domain, too") they should be taken with enough grains of salt to preserve a whale shark.

I'm sorry for quoting, but I've looked for that item on the book you mentioned and I couldn't find it. Aren't you probably confusing that item with the MW version of the potion belt in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book? That one specifies that you can retrieve a potion as a free action, but not drink it as such, having to spend an action as usual.There's also Potion Bladder from Drow of the Underdark, which allows you to drink a potion without using digging it out or provoking AoO. Still a standard action, though.


I think Shadow Cloak (Drow of the Underdark I believe) which gives +1 deflection bonus and 3/day immediate action teleport for 5.5k is ludicrously cheap.DotU is a post-MIC book, and it shows. There's quite a few good, affordable items, and a few that might be underpriced. Ring of Anticipation, for example, is pretty awesome for 6k.

[Segev]

Regarding Sharpness: You may be right; I may be recalling AD&D.

[Andvare]

A couple from Pathfinder.

The Shift Runner's Shirt. Gives you an extra move action 1/day for a mere 1000gp. Chest slot item IIRC.

Then there is the Ring of Continuation, which originally let you cast a 24h Time Stop, which at 56000 was a bargain.

More somewhat underpriced items from Pathfinder here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pz2e?Magical-items-on-a-budget#1).

[kkplx]

Basically anything that makes it into these lists:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11066.0

[Pickford]

Wands go up to level 4. And can theoretically be bought AND made with less than full charges.

My bad, I was looking at Eternal Wands in the MiC when I wrote that.

Where does the partial charging material come from?

DMG says always fully on page 287:


Wands are always fully charges (50 charges) when created.

[kkplx]

My bad, I was looking at Eternal Wands in the MiC when I wrote that.

Where does the partial charging material come from?

DMG says always fully on page 287:

Probably me being wrong =) Still lets you buy them with lower charges though.

[Tvtyrant]

Wow. An infinite food shenanigan which doesn't require DM-approval of custom traps. That's pretty sweet. Just position it so the food falls out onto a conveyor belt as soon as you open it, and find a way to open/close it really fast.

Now all you need to do is find a way to make that mobile, like putting it on wheels or something, then you can pretty much feed an army with it.

Just use the commoner cannon rules to feed everyone in a line instantaneously. Everyone has a spot in the line they get to at lunch time and the are immediately fed.

I think the Ring of Shooting Stars is extremely over priced and improbably in the number and kinds of spells it needs. Why would anyone with 9th level spells make one? (it requires meteor swarm..)

[Averis Vol]

I'm sorry for quoting, but I've looked for that item on the book you mentioned and I couldn't find it. Aren't you probably confusing that item with the MW version of the potion belt in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book? That one specifies that you can retrieve a potion as a free action, but not drink it as such, having to spend an action as usual.

you are correct. I found this when I first started DnD and must have misread it. It is a much less attractive item now.

[JaronK]

I also think it's a logical interpretation that you can buy less than 50 at a time. I mean, why couldn't you? It would be like going to a merchant and being told you can only buy arrows in units of 20 because that's what the rulebook has a price for.

More to the point, every single magic ammunition item ever is listed with a price for 1, and creation costs for 1. So while you generally make a huge batch, you don't actually have to. You make 1.

You don't have to make 10 raptor arrows at once or something.

JaronK

[Nettlekid]

With regard to the cheap shuriken, I had an experience in a game I DMed where my party wanted to abuse the cheap cost with Spell Storing, and I was like "You want 50 extra spell slots a day, that's not going to happen," and I came up with what I think was a pretty good reason for it. When you actually make the shuriken itself, they're easier to make than a dagger, and they don't need to last as long, so costs like Masterworking are diminished for each shuriken because they don't need to hold their edge like the dagger. Similarly, when it comes to weapon special abilities, if you were to apply the magic to each shuriken as you would a dagger, it would be the same cost. Because each shuriken's enchantment costs 1/50 that of the dagger, the smith needs to cut corners. Knowing that the shuriken won't be used more than once, the magic used to give the special ability (Spell Storing, Elemental Summoning, etc) is only loosely bound and will disperse after a single use, in the same way that a Masterwork shuriken loses its edge after a single use.

As far as poorly priced magic items (I assume we're talking priced too low, right? Because there are TONS of magic items priced too high) I've always thought of Gloves of Object Reading as a huge bargain at 3000 gold. Since they're best used out of combat in some down time, they basically don't occupy the hands slot. And although they have a niche use, they can devastate certain plot points. If you have a mystery BBEG who dropped any item, you'll know the BBEG. It's great for identifying those innocuous trinkets of secret power, or the royal family's lost crests, or figuring out what happened to a destroyed village. Very handy, and for 3000 gold, it's hard to justify NOT buying a pair.

Also stuff like Shapesand, Chaos Flasks, and Nolzur's Marvelous Pigments. For 100 gold/jug, 50 gold/flask, and 4000 gold/pot respectively, you get basically any nonmagical item you can think of. Even putting aside the potential value of those items (for example those Chaos Flasks make great poisons, most of which are way more expensive than 50 gold) the sheer flexibility and versatility of those items is more than worth the cost on its own.

Quaal's Feather Token: Tree? I don't usually like single-use items, but there aren't many problems that can't be solved by making an enormous tree appear out of nowhere. For 400 gold, that's a steal.

I expect it's been mentioned already, but if you're LN, LE, or NE, Enveloping Pit is SO worth it. Way cheaper than a Portable Hole (which I would say is overpriced), and much bigger/more versatile than any Bag of Holding. Only 3600 gold. I say get two.

Although it's a bit more expensive than all those others, I still say that the Sacred Ofuda is way, way underpriced at 27000 gold (from Oriental Adventures). You go up to an undead creature, smack this on their head with a Touch attack that provokes an AoO, if you're damaged by the AoO then your Touch attack fails, but if you succeed, then the undead is frozen in place for as long as the tag is attached, if unattacked. This single item can completely neutralize the most fearsome Vampire or Lich. This is a game-ender. It's that broken, and for less than 30k.

[Pickford]

Just use the commoner cannon rules to feed everyone in a line instantaneously. Everyone has a spot in the line they get to at lunch time and the are immediately fed.

I think the Ring of Shooting Stars is extremely over priced and improbably in the number and kinds of spells it needs. Why would anyone with 9th level spells make one? (it requires meteor swarm..)

Wouldn't a trap be required to have an effect that negatively impacts whomsoever trips it? Otherwise it's not actually a trap, but a regular wondrous item.

[Greenish]

Wouldn't a trap be required to have an effect that negatively impacts whomsoever trips it? Otherwise it's not actually a trap, but a regular wondrous item.Well, nothing says so outright, and there is a category named Magic Device Traps:

These traps produce the effects of any spells included in their construction, as described in the appropriate entries. If the spell in a magic device trap allows a saving throw, its save DC is 10 + spell level × 1.5. Some spells make attack rolls instead.

This is purposefully distinct from Spell Traps:

Spell traps produce the spell’s effect. Like all spells, a spell trap that allows a saving throw has a save DC of 10 + spell level + caster’s relevant ability modifier.

Make of that what you wish.

[Tvtyrant]

Wouldn't a trap be required to have an effect that negatively impacts whomsoever trips it? Otherwise it's not actually a trap, but a regular wondrous item.

This has nothing to do with traps? It was the Everfull Larder which gives out an infinite amount of food but has a limited duration.

[Pickford]

Well, nothing says so outright, and there is a category named Magic Device Traps:


This is purposefully distinct from Spell Traps:


Make of that what you wish.

I make of it that the DC means a negative effect is a requirement. Also it requires DM approval, so unless you have a DM who uses an extremely...loose interpretation of the rules...

edit: Tvtyrant, sorry I misread as it being about a trap, still.

[tyckspoon]

I make of it that the DC means a negative effect is a requirement. Also it requires DM approval, so unless you have a DM who uses an extremely...loose interpretation of the rules...

edit: Tvtyrant, sorry I misread as it being about a trap, still.

So if you put a trap of Lightning Bolt in, say, a nest of Shambling Mounds what are strengthened by electricity.. it stops being a trap? Or maybe you want a trap of Cure X Wound somewhere to protect against undead incursions; that can't be a trap?

Nevermind that Dungeonscape includes rules for Boon Traps, which means there is a direct WotC blessing for positive effects to be in 'traps'.

[eggynack]

So if you put a trap of Lightning Bolt in, say, a nest of Shambling Mounds what are strengthened by electricity.. it stops being a trap? Or maybe you want a trap of Cure X Wound somewhere to protect against undead incursions; that can't be a trap?

Nevermind that Dungeonscape includes rules for Boon Traps, which means there is a direct WotC blessing for positive effects to be in 'traps'.
The trick is always acting like you're being harmed or inconvenienced by the traps. "Damn, that's way more free food than I wanted. Now I'm overburdened by deliciousness," or, "Crap, now I'm healed. I arbitrarily view low HP as a resource on par with HP itself." Acting like you're stumbling into the traps every time, even when you're activating it on purpose repeatedly, is a must.

[Slipperychicken]

The trick is always acting like you're being harmed or inconvenienced by the traps. "Damn, that's way more free food than I wanted. Now I'm overburdened by deliciousness," or, "Crap, now I'm healed. I arbitrarily view low HP as a resource on par with HP itself." Acting like you're stumbling into the traps every time, even when you're activating it on purpose repeatedly, is a must.

"Damn, all that food is going to bring ants into my nice clean castle!"

"Damn, all that food will attract giant rats, and I'll have to pay 1st level adventurers to clear them out of my basement!"

"With my wounds healed, the DM will throw tougher encounters at me!"

[Firechanter]

Similarly, when it comes to weapon special abilities, if you were to apply the magic to each shuriken as you would a dagger, it would be the same cost. Because each shuriken's enchantment costs 1/50 that of the dagger, the smith needs to cut corners. Knowing that the shuriken won't be used more than once, the magic used to give the special ability (Spell Storing, Elemental Summoning, etc) is only loosely bound and will disperse after a single use, in the same way that a Masterwork shuriken loses its edge after a single use.

Oh, I like that. I've never had to deal with this kind of cheese before, but if it should ever happen, I now know how to respond to it.

[Morphie]

But shurikens are reusable, so it's still exploitable. Not at our group though, if someone thought of that the collective response would just be: "No, don't be silly."

[Vedhin]

But shurikens are reusable, so it's still exploitable. Not at our group though, if someone thought of that the collective response would just be: "No, don't be silly."

I would say: "Sure thing. This'll make it a lot easier for me to equip all the mooks with useful items."

[Rubik]

I would say: "Sure thing. This'll make it a lot easier for me to equip all the mooks with useful items."That, and weapons are insanely expensive.

As in, "If you want to be a martial character without full spellcasting AND want to pay out the nose for weapons and armor AND still want to be leagues below the stronger tiers, you're insane."

At least it'll give the low tiers a boost, and it won't affect higher tiers that much, since most of them don't rely on weapons just to do their thing.

[Invader]

This whole thread has been completely derailed, please try to get it back on track. :smallfrown:

[eggynack]

I don't think anyone has mentioned the apparatus of the crab. 90,000 GP, and you get to be a terrible robot crab. It has the advantage of making you a robot crab, and that's cool, but it's just another thing in the game's trend of overpricing cool stuff. Also, if no one has mentioned vorpal, I'm mentioning vorpal. I don't know how it should have been priced, but it was priced too high.

[Rubik]

Brilliant energy weapons. Incredibly pricey, and it doesn't even do that much. You can ignore some armor bonuses and some shield bonuses, and you can't even use it on nonliving enemies.

This is especially bad when ghost touch turns your attacks into incorporeal touch attacks without all the negative baggage, and all for a +1 bonus.

Bleh.

[Yawgmoth]

Oh, I like that. I've never had to deal with this kind of cheese before, but if it should ever happen, I now know how to respond to it. Really? My response to cheesy crap is "no, that's cheesy and annoying and I don't want to deal with it."

[killem2]

Maybe it is just me but my Winged Mask for 13k, was a steal lol.

[TuggyNE]

This is especially bad when ghost touch turns your attacks into incorporeal touch attacks without all the negative baggage, and all for a +1 bonus.

Not to go off topic, but I find this interpretation dubious in the extreme, and I don't believe it's commonly accepted, even for TO/cheese/wacky RAW brokenness.

[Rubik]

Not to go off topic, but I find this interpretation dubious in the extreme, and I don't believe it's commonly accepted, even for TO/cheese/wacky RAW brokenness.Your weapon is treated as though it's corporeal or incorporeal whenever it's beneficial to be one or the other. Incorporeal things make incorporeal touch attacks, according to the description. Seems simple enough.

[eggynack]

Your weapon is treated as though it's corporeal or incorporeal whenever it's beneficial to be one or the other. Incorporeal things make incorporeal touch attacks, according to the description. Seems simple enough.
You argue this all the time, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone agree with you, including myself. The only section of the enhancement that would lend credence to your claims is prefaced by the word, "essentially," which means that we can "essentially" disregard it. It seems like a bit of a lost cause.

[Deophaun]

This is especially bad when ghost touch turns your attacks into incorporeal touch attacks without all the negative baggage, and all for a +1 bonus.
Yeah, no. It just lets your weapon not have to deal with the 50% miss chance to attack incorporeal creatures (or allows incorporeal creatures to wield said weapon).

In terms of poorly priced, I'll throw in the memento magica. Pearls of power cost spell level ^2 * 1000. Memento magicas cost spell level ^2 * 1500. Why? Because #$^& you, sorcerer! That's why.


Your weapon is treated as though it's corporeal or incorporeal whenever it's beneficial to be one or the other. Incorporeal things creatures make incorporeal touch attacks, according to the description. Seems simple enough.
Fixed.

[Karoht]

I don't think anyone has mentioned the apparatus of the crab. 90,000 GP, and you get to be a terrible robot crab. It has the advantage of making you a robot crab, and that's cool, but it's just another thing in the game's trend of overpricing cool stuff. Also, if no one has mentioned vorpal, I'm mentioning vorpal. I don't know how it should have been priced, but it was priced too high.I feel that item is perfectly priced.
You're mostly paying for bling-factor.
And the ability to walk around yelling "CRAB BATTLE!"

[eggynack]

I feel that item is perfectly priced.
You're mostly paying for bling-factor.
And the ability to walk around yelling "CRAB BATTLE!"
That's the whole point though. You should be able to get ridiculous novelty items without crippling your character to do so. I'm not even sure that item is ever good, at any price. You put two guys in there, and you get two mediocre pincer attacks. It's certainly kinda resilient, but that's just not enough. This stuff is all kinda obvious, so I don't see why they couldn't low ball the price on ridiculous robot crab fighting action. They overprice these utterly pointless items, which forces you to get various generic abilities. It's not a universal thing, but it's still a thing.

[Karoht]

That's the whole point though. You should be able to get ridiculous novelty items without crippling your character to do so. I'm not even sure that item is ever good, at any price. You put two guys in there, and you get two mediocre pincer attacks. It's certainly kinda resilient, but that's just not enough. This stuff is all kinda obvious, so I don't see why they couldn't low ball the price on ridiculous robot crab fighting action. They overprice these utterly pointless items, which forces you to get various generic abilities. It's not a universal thing, but it's still a thing.
It's amazing at low levels though. Just not the levels one can afford it.

The blue text was sarcasm, so to be completely clear, I do agree it is overpriced. Half the price would be awesome.

[Segev]

That's the problem with a lot of the really cool items. They would be awesome at too low a level, but even when they'd merely be cool-and-useful, they're about half again as many levels of wealth as they should be. The Rod of Lordly Might is one I love to hand out to 5-10th level parties. Yes, the +4 axe form is "more wealth" than it should be by itself, but it's just not that powerful in a mild-op game. And in a high-op game, they'll have better stuff long before they would have the item.

[eggynack]

It's amazing at low levels though. Just not the levels one can afford it.

The blue text was sarcasm, so to be completely clear, I do agree it is overpriced. Half the price would be awesome.
I got the sarcasm aspect of it. It's just that the part about bling factor and yelling crab battle at people almost seems to reflect actual WotC reasoning for pricing, which is odd. I suppose that there's a theoretical price where going crab might be overpowered, but there's certainly a price that's significantly lower than the current on that isn't overpowered. I could definitely see 45 k, as you say, though it's still probably significantly underpowered at that point. It's just a general godawful trend of putting a premium on cool value, instead of just putting prices on cool items commensurate with their power level, and making cool options halfway viable.

[Pickford]

The trick is always acting like you're being harmed or inconvenienced by the traps. "Damn, that's way more free food than I wanted. Now I'm overburdened by deliciousness," or, "Crap, now I'm healed. I arbitrarily view low HP as a resource on par with HP itself." Acting like you're stumbling into the traps every time, even when you're activating it on purpose repeatedly, is a must.

Heh :)

I just meant, from a practical perspective, no DM (who isn't being deliberately silly) would do this, or approve it for a character. And as create food is not in and of itself dangerous, I can't see it even being construed as a trap. (Though a 'create water'/forcecage/pit trap would be potentially terrifying if you are afraid of drowning)

edit: Boon traps? (A pity I don't own Dungeonscape =\)

[Pickford]

Blindhelm from the MiC. Just look at the item immediately above, the Blindfold of True Darkness. The helm gives you blindsense 5ft and a save bonus vs gaze attacks. The blindfold gives you blindsight 30ft and immunity to gaze attacks, with the drwaback of negating your normal vision. The Blindhelm is significantly more expensive, despite being almost completely worse.

Also, the Sudden Stunning weapon ability from the DMGII. +2,000gp for a Cha bonus times per day, 1d4+1 rounds duration stun, with a scaling Reflex save based on your HD and Charisma bonus. Way underpriced.

Well, the blindfold actually prevents you from using vision in any way while it's on. The helm does not. So...no reading anything (scrolls for example).

The helm is, technically, more versatile in that it also is armor. edit: Doh, I totally meant to remove this! :smallredface:)

Oh, and I actually bothered to look up Blindsense vs Blindsight.

Here's the important bit:

Blindsense: The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blind-sense ability, provided it has line of effect to that creature.

Blindsight: The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability.

Blindsight gives the ability to see through concealment (usually) as well, but given that the blindfold item also prevents the use of sight (including your ability to see anything past 30 ft!) whereas the helm does not hinder regular sight at all...I'd say the helm is on balance better.

[Deophaun]

The helm is, technically, more versatile in that it also is armor.
Highly dubious.

[Draz74]

Also, the Sudden Stunning weapon ability from the DMGII. +2,000gp for a Cha bonus times per day, 1d4+1 rounds duration stun, with a scaling Reflex save based on your HD and Charisma bonus. Way underpriced.


...
Must...
Not...
Convince... DM... to... let... my... Ninja/Bard... ...HAVE!!!

Honestly, that could be x10 the price, and it would still be a bargain.
If you're struggling to resist this temptation, looking up the "fix" in MIC (unfortunately unofficial, since it has a slightly different name) may help. The Stunning Surge weapon enhancement has many of the same advantages, but a shorter duration and a +1-equivalent price.

Still a good bargain, but no longer ridiculously OP.


"Manifester" is a ludicrously powerful tag to put on ammo, if you abuse that particular rule.
And yet, it's kinda a nice fix for classes that normally have cripplingly low amounts of PP ... :smallwink: (E.g. PsiWars in high-op games.)


Personally, the only version of the typical abuses I tend to argue for keeping is spell-storing; the others don't treat them like weapons, anymore, but like permanent magic items of some sort that are not USED as weapons. Spell-storing is made greatly efficient by applying it to ammo, but it IS expended.
Of course, then there's the age-old debate about whether Spell Storing can even be applied to ranged weapons, based on its conspicuous absence from the Ranged Weapon random item table in the SRD.


Except almost all limb loss is a house ruling in D&D, anyway, since the only way it is going to happen is through DM fiat or if you are helpless/unconscious and someone intentionally lops it off.


Doesn't change the fact that it can happen, or that there are very few ways in which to fix it.
Well, the point is that unless you have access to Regeneration (Ring or Spell), anyway, then the DM probably will never let limb loss become an issue in your game in the first place. So this item is solving a problem that it also created, in effect.

Besides, even in a campaign with limb loss ... the item is still overpriced. Just not to the point of complete uselessness.


Would you say this is offset by the fact that anyone can use it, not just someone with UMD or a caster?
No.


I would just like to add that Ive heard people mention that their technically isn't a rule stating your allowed to make less than 50 of them at a time so its a little bit what your DM allows


I also think it's a logical interpretation that you can buy less than 50 at a time. I mean, why couldn't you? It would be like going to a merchant and being told you can only buy arrows in units of 20 because that's what the rulebook has a price for.


Ya but whats the chances of the black smith having such a specific shruken you want in stock? He probably doesn't and even he could make it for you Im sure he'd insist on you buying the whole group of 50 that he now has to make for you.


That makes sense, if it's a highly specialized shuriken and he can only craft batches of 50 at a time.
Depends what you mean by "highly specialized."

The idea behind this brand of cheese is that, if the magic ammunition is useful enough, it only takes one entrepreneurial item crafter to come up with the idea of making 50 of them, and then selling them one-by-one (or five-by-five or whatever) to adventurers. Which he'll have an easy time doing, if he has any marketing skills, because they'll be a huge boost to the adventurer's life expectancy for their cost. Now there's a market for these things; other item crafters will start getting requests for the same brand of shuriken, and they'll start crafting batches of 50 too. Pretty soon, the item will become liquid enough that the 50-creation limit will be completely meaningless.

Economics, yo.

... Which is also the answer to the question about how people justify buying partially-charged wands, btw. Many PCs will want to sell their almost-empty wands while they're in town, while they're buying new fully-charged wands. And it stands to reason that, if the PCs are doing that, someone else is doing it too ... and therefore, that there must be a market for partially charged wands, in which the PCs can be the buyers as well as the sellers.


Any Spell Resistance armor enhancement.
Oh my goodness, yes. Or any other Spell Resistance items. (Especially when you consider that, depending on party makeup, SR can have a bigger drawback than benefit!)

And while I'm on this train of thought, most items that grant Energy Resistance (fire/cold/acid/etc.) are way overpriced too.


Dust of sneezing and choking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChokinghttp://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking). Yes, it is a cursed item, but its curse is more awesome (as a weapon) than the 'normal' counterpart is. Sure, they are likely to pass the saves, but a minimum of five rounds of stun is nothing to sneeze at. Amd guess what, it's an area effect!
All for the low, low price of 2,499 GP, plus 1gp shipping and handling.
Order Now!
Gotta love repeats of items that were already discussed in the OP of the thread. :smalltongue:


I think the Ring of Shooting Stars is extremely over priced and improbably in the number and kinds of spells it needs. Why would anyone with 9th level spells make one? (it requires meteor swarm..)
Ugh, yes. Compare it with the much more modern-priced, practical Gloves of the Starry Sky (MIC).

But then again, it would be quicker to make a list of DMG items that aren't overpriced, rather than those that are. Helm of Underwater Action, anyone? Helm of Teleportation? Horn of Valhalla? Horn of Blasting? Bags of Holding? The classy Cloak of Arachnida?


Wouldn't a trap be required to have an effect that negatively impacts whomsoever trips it? Otherwise it's not actually a trap, but a regular wondrous item.
That's how I'd houserule it too, but the trap rules don't actually say any such thing. Besides, then you start getting into awkward worldbuilding questions about how the magic itself can tell what's "a negative impact" vs. a benefit.

Anyway, beneficial traps are pretty much just a theoretical exercise for anyone who isn't Tippy. Not worth getting upset about. And even then, they're basically just used as an excuse to treat the custom item guidelines as custom item rules in the specific case of big stationary "items" that are triggered by a creature's presence. I.e. if your DM allows you to utilize those infamous guidelines, you can pull off all the custom-trap shenanigans without having to worry about the definition of "trap" anyway.


I came up with what I think was a pretty good reason for it. When you actually make the shuriken itself, they're easier to make than a dagger, and they don't need to last as long, so costs like Masterworking are diminished for each shuriken because they don't need to hold their edge like the dagger. Similarly, when it comes to weapon special abilities, if you were to apply the magic to each shuriken as you would a dagger, it would be the same cost. Because each shuriken's enchantment costs 1/50 that of the dagger, the smith needs to cut corners. Knowing that the shuriken won't be used more than once, the magic used to give the special ability (Spell Storing, Elemental Summoning, etc) is only loosely bound and will disperse after a single use, in the same way that a Masterwork shuriken loses its edge after a single use.
Neat idea. Although it doesn't help with continuous ammunition abuses like a +1 Shuriken of Warning (initiative +5 for 160 gp!!!!).


I've always thought of Gloves of Object Reading as a huge bargain at 3000 gold. Since they're best used out of combat in some down time, they basically don't occupy the hands slot. And although they have a niche use, they can devastate certain plot points. If you have a mystery BBEG who dropped any item, you'll know the BBEG. It's great for identifying those innocuous trinkets of secret power, or the royal family's lost crests, or figuring out what happened to a destroyed village. Very handy, and for 3000 gold, it's hard to justify NOT buying a pair.
Ugh, this item would SO be on my insta-ban list as a DM. Not because it's really too powerful, more because I don't want to have to be ready to come up with a history for every coin the PCs can lay their hands on. :smallyuk:


Brilliant energy weapons. Incredibly pricey, and it doesn't even do that much. You can ignore some armor bonuses and some shield bonuses, and you can't even use it on nonliving enemies.
Yeah. On a related note, what would be a fair price for a weapon that always just lets you target touch AC with attacks? (Essentially duplicating the infamous continuous Wraithstrike effect.) I've kind of gone back and forth between +4 and +5.


You argue this all the time, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone agree with you, including myself. The only section of the enhancement that would lend credence to your claims is prefaced by the word, "essentially," which means that we can "essentially" disregard it. It seems like a bit of a lost cause.
Agreed. Plus, it seems a bit munchkin-y to argue that you can treat your weapon as incorporeal and corporeal at different stages of the same attack.


Well, the blindfold actually prevents you from using vision in any way while it's on. The helm does not. So...no reading anything (scrolls for example).
Hmmm, that's a reasonable interpretation, but arguable unless there's actually something in the Blindsight rules about not being able to read.


Blindsight gives the ability to see through concealment (usually) as well, but given that the blindfold item also prevents the use of sight (including your ability to see anything past 30 ft!) whereas the helm does not hinder regular sight at all...I'd say the helm is on balance better.

I agree that the drawbacks of the Blindfold are significant, and therefore that it's not strictly better than the Helm. But that doesn't change the fact that the Helm is ridiculously expensive for the benefits it gives you. :smallsigh:

[Pickford]

Draz, that's not about blindanything, it's from the description of the blindfold in the MiC, you can't use regular sight for anything. (which is inclusive of reading)

[Greenish]

I just meant, from a practical perspective, no DM (who isn't being deliberately silly) would do this, or approve it for a character.I've heard of serious campaigns taking place in Tippyverse.


edit: Boon traps? (A pity I don't own Dungeonscape =\)If you get the opportunity to pick it up, I recommend you do. It's pretty cool.

Boon traps are traps with beneficial spells, essentially. The use the designers seem to have imagined is to cast a buff or a heal on a monster in a dungeon every time it's triggered.

I'd say the helm is on balance better.Blindsense is pretty meh compared to Blindsight, and 5' is a tiny range. I could see the helm being about the same price as the blindfold, but being more expensive is just silly.

Even without comparing the two items, few characters would buy the helm.


[Edit]:
Hmmm, that's a reasonable interpretation, but arguable unless there's actually something in the Blindsight rules about not being able to read."Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight."

[Pickford]

I've heard of serious campaigns taking place in Tippyverse.

If you get the opportunity to pick it up, I recommend you do. It's pretty cool.

Boon traps are traps with beneficial spells, essentially. The use the designers seem to have imagined is to cast a buff or a heal on a monster in a dungeon every time it's triggered.
Blindsense is pretty meh compared to Blindsight, and 5' is a tiny range. I could see the helm being about the same price as the blindfold, but being more expensive is just silly.

Even without comparing the two items, few characters would buy the helm.

True, but noticing the presence within 30 feet is a DC 30 spot check, However pinpointing is a DC 50-60 spot check (!) and an opposed listen to move silently (at +20) check. Either way, that's a lot more skill points that you are obviating.

[Draz74]

Draz, that's not about blindanything, it's from the description of the blindfold in the MiC, you can't use regular sight for anything. (which is inclusive of reading)
I know you can't use regular sight for anything, but that wouldn't stop you from using scrolls if you could read with Blindsight.

But Greenish's quote has nicely convinced me that you were right, anyway.

[Rubik]

Yeah. On a related note, what would be a fair price for a weapon that always just lets you target touch AC with attacks? (Essentially duplicating the infamous continuous Wraithstrike effect.) I've kind of gone back and forth between +4 and +5.It doesn't ignore natural armor or Mage Armor or the Shield spell. Basically it does little to nothing against quite a few spellcasters and most non-humanoid monsters.

+3, perhaps.

[Draz74]

It doesn't ignore natural armor or Mage Armor or the Shield spell. Basically it does little to nothing against quite a few spellcasters and most non-humanoid monsters.

I know. That's why I'd like to houserule an improvement to it. :smalltongue:

I wasn't asking for what would be an appropriate price for Brilliant Energy. I was asking for an appropriate price for the full touch attack effect that Brilliant Energy should have been.

[Greenish]

True, but noticing the presence within 30 feet is a DC 30 spot check, However pinpointing is a DC 50-60 spot check (!) and an opposed listen to move silently (at +20) check. Either way, that's a lot more skill points that you are obviating.Blindsight allows you to "see" the enemy. You don't just pinpoint the square, you actually know what's in there and what it is doing.

Have you ever bought a Blindhelm for a character? Have you ever seen anyone to do it?

It's a pretty terrible defense against, say, invisibility, if for no other reason than it's range.

[Rubik]

I know. That's why I'd like to houserule an improvement to it. :smalltongue:

I wasn't asking for what would be an appropriate price for Brilliant Energy. I was asking for an appropriate price for the full touch attack effect that Brilliant Energy should have been.Does it still ignore nonliving creatures? If it's basically a use-activated Wraithstrike, it's still only borderline useful, since AC sucks as a defense anyway. Making it suck even worse is more insult added to injury, than anything.

There are all sorts of ways to hit touch ACs, including becoming invisible and the maneuvers in ToB. So, it probably wouldn't cost all that much.

[Draz74]

Does it still ignore nonliving creatures?
No.


If it's basically a use-activated Wraithstrike, it's still only borderline useful, since AC sucks as a defense anyway.
Interesting how, even though "AC doesn't matter" is a mantra of optimizers, they still tote how big an advantage it is when Orb spells target touch AC, or talk about Persisted Wraithstrike as an abusive gish strategy.

If nothing else, getting to bypass normal AC allows a lot more Power Attacking.


There are all sorts of ways to hit touch ACs, including becoming invisible and the maneuvers in ToB. So, it probably wouldn't cost all that much.

I think there's only one maneuver in ToB that does this, maybe two. Invisibility lets you target flat-footed AC, not touch AC. Emerald Razor can only be used once before refreshing, and it requires you to pass up a standard attack. Heartseeker Amulet only works on 3 attacks per day, and requires a swift action to activate each one. All in all, without Wraithstrike abuse, hitting touch AC is pretty limited.

So I think a weapon enhancement that does it continually would still be pretty valuable.

[Agincourt]

It doesn't ignore natural armor or Mage Armor or the Shield spell. Basically it does little to nothing against quite a few spellcasters and most non-humanoid monsters.

+3, perhaps.

I don't see why Brilliant Energy would ignore the Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm) or Mage Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageArmor.htm) spells. Both spells have text (worded differently) about protecting against incorporeal attacks, but Brilliant Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy) isn't defined as an incorporeal attack. Brilliant Energy lists what it bypasses and Shield and Mage Armor are not in any of those categories. "(Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.)"

Still overpriced though.

[eggynack]

Interesting how, even though "AC doesn't matter" is a mantra of optimizers, they still tote how big an advantage it is when Orb spells target touch AC, or talk about Persisted Wraithstrike as an abusive gish strategy.

If nothing else, getting to bypass normal AC allows a lot more Power Attacking.

I think you have it backwards. AC doesn't matter because orbs target touch AC. There's a massive amount of stuff that just bypasses most AC, and that stuff makes AC a rather weak defense. I do agree that a weapon that makes touch attacks would be quite powerful. However, in a theoretical PvP game, a weapon that makes touch attacks would be worse, because there are so many ways around AC, so optimal characters would ignore their AC in favor of a broader defense. Also, a good number of power attack builds use shock trooper, so touch attacks wouldn't necessarily be better for them. Also, also, orbs have the additional advantage of just going through everything. If they just went through AC, that would be one thing, but they also go through SR, and AMF's. That's most of the reason why it sees mailman based love.

[Brookshw]

I don't see why Brilliant Energy would ignore the Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm) or Mage Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageArmor.htm) spells. Both spells have text (worded differently) about protecting against incorporeal attacks, but Brilliant Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy) isn't defined as an incorporeal attack. Brilliant Energy lists what it bypasses and Shield and Mage Armor are not in any of those categories. "(Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.)"

Still overpriced though.

Brilliant Energy isn't defined as incorporeal. It's very poorly defined in fact (light?) . This question came up in my group a month back and after reviewing abjuration & force rules, the spells etc (looked mainly in core) we couldn't find any reason to think mage armor or shield would help against Brilliant Energy. If you found something somewhere that supports these are effective please let me know =D

[hamishspence]

Magic Item Compendium has the Rod of Force (p174) which generates various Force effects, including a "blade of force" that's used as a +1 brilliant energy longsword.

That's about the only occasion I've seen the two connected.

[nedz]

Brilliant Energy

A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition.

Strong transmutation; CL 16th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, gaseous form, continual flame; Price +4 bonus.


Mage Armor

An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a mage armor spell, providing a +4 armor bonus to AC.

Unlike mundane armor, mage armor entails no armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, or speed reduction. Since mage armor is made of force, incorporeal creatures can’t bypass it the way they do normal armor.


Shield

Shield creates an invisible, tower shield-sized mobile disk of force that hovers in front of you. It negates magic missile attacks directed at you. The disk also provides a +4 shield bonus to AC. This bonus applies against incorporeal touch attacks, since it is a force effect. The shield has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance. Unlike with a normal tower shield, you can’t use the shield spell for cover.

The RAW seems clear. The types of bonuses these spells provide (Armor and Shield) are bypassed by Brilliant Energy weapons.

[Pickford]

Blindsight allows you to "see" the enemy. You don't just pinpoint the square, you actually know what's in there and what it is doing.

Have you ever bought a Blindhelm for a character? Have you ever seen anyone to do it?

It's a pretty terrible defense against, say, invisibility, if for no other reason than it's range.

No...

Blindsight ignores the concealment of invisibility, darkness, etc...

That is not the same thing. It doesn't, for example, work on ethereal things. (Whereas it would appear Blindsense does)

[Invader]

I think you have it backwards. AC doesn't matter because orbs target touch AC. There's a massive amount of stuff that just bypasses most AC, and that stuff makes AC a rather weak defense. I do agree that a weapon that makes touch attacks would be quite powerful. However, in a theoretical PvP game, a weapon that makes touch attacks would be worse, because there are so many ways around AC, so optimal characters would ignore their AC in favor of a broader defense. Also, a good number of power attack builds use shock trooper, so touch attacks wouldn't necessarily be better for them. Also, also, orbs have the additional advantage of just going through everything. If they just went through AC, that would be one thing, but they also go through SR, and AMF's. That's most of the reason why it sees mailman based love.

Pretty much exactly this is why AC becomes irrelevant.

[Venger]

Maybe it is just me but my Winged Mask for 13k, was a steal lol.

Feathered wings for 10k? No, they don't go with my ensemble. Besides, how am I supposed to sleep?

probably one of the most ridiculous items is spellblade. 6k gets you immunity to any spell? sure, sign me up, suckers. even without the shuriken trick, it's trivial to become immune to all the dangerous spells in the game with this.

[Mnemnosyne]

[color="blue"]probably one of the most ridiculous items is spellblade. 6k gets you immunity to any spell? sure, sign me up, suckers. even without the shuriken trick, it's trivial to become immune to all the dangerous spells in the game with this.
Only single-target spells that target you, so they're worthless against a lot of decent stuff. Forcecage combos still work fine, you've got things like wings of flurry and maw of chaos that do massive damage and dazelock, and of course spellblades are powerless to protect against Mordenkainen's disjunction. They could, perhaps, use a small increase in price, but not so much that they become a major item, because as long as you don't allow shuriken shenanigans, even protecting only against all the versions of single-target dispel is going to cost a pretty sizable amount since you need multiples for it.

[TuggyNE]

No...

Blindsight ignores the concealment of invisibility, darkness, etc...

That is not the same thing. It doesn't, for example, work on ethereal things. (Whereas it would appear Blindsense does)

Ethereal creatures, being literally on another plane, are not discerned by blindsense.
The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature.

[Telok]

Undeniably it does; the trick works despite taking that fully into account. After all, shuriken you never throw can never break, right?

Sorry, I quoted the wrong bit. Try this.


Magic Ammunition and Breakage

When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, shuriken, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or otherwise is rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, bullet, or shuriken that hits is destroyed.

Even if it's morphed into a battleaxe a magic shuriken is still a magic shuriken.

[Mnemnosyne]

Sorry, I quoted the wrong bit. Try this.



Even if it's morphed into a battleaxe a magic shuriken is still a magic shuriken.
Which is irrelevant if you're using one of the many, many effects that do not require the weapon to hit anything to be useful. Warning, defending, eager, harmonizing, spellstrike, the aforementioned spellblade... Get a +10 equivalent shuriken with all those things (that you can fit on it), hold it in your offhand, never actually use it. It's never destroyed because it never either misses OR hits a target; it's just wielded, and provides a bunch of passive bonuses.

[Cirrylius]

That Shroud that disintegrates a single corpse. Somebody was WAAAAAY too literal with the magic item pricing guide that day.

[Eldariel]

"Manifester" is a ludicrously powerful tag to put on ammo, if you abuse that particular rule.

On the flipside it's ridiculously overpriced by default, so meh.

[Telok]

Which is irrelevant if you're using one of the many, many effects that do not require the weapon to hit anything to be useful. Warning, defending, eager, harmonizing, spellstrike, the aforementioned spellblade... Get a +10 equivalent shuriken with all those things (that you can fit on it), hold it in your offhand, never actually use it. It's never destroyed because it never either misses OR hits a target; it's just wielded, and provides a bunch of passive bonuses.

Well yeah, but I thinght that was just bloody stupid obvious. The bit I quoted was just the RAW way to stop people from buying a +5 morphing whatever sword for 1/50th the price, it disenchants on the first swing.

The whole thing with the ammo is obviously an abuse of the rules, nobody I know would actually play it that way.

[TuggyNE]

The whole thing with the ammo is obviously an abuse of the rules, nobody I know would actually play it that way.

Sure, but that's the abuse we're talking about as being poorly priced by RAW. Which it is; the fact that it's so blatant that hardly anyone would actually use it that way is merely an indicator of how bad the RAW is. :smallwink: