How could Durkula use resurrection?

[Reddish Mage]

Its a moot point considering V's body is "shielded from all harm." But on Roy's assumption V was dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html) is there anyway for Durkon to convince a reluctant dead person to accept a raise from a lawful evil cleric? Are there alternative methods for Durkon to raise an unwilling person?

[Chantelune]

Not that I know of, beside going to whatever afterlife V went, find her, then explain the situation to her. ^^;

Even speak with dead does not allow to really speak with the soul, only to the corpse which uses the knowledge of the soul it hosted before dying.

Or maybe hoping that V would be scrying as Roy did with his father and understand the situation by herself.

[Shale]

V would be told the name as well as the alignment of the cleric. I'm sure "Durkon, Lawful Evil, worshiper of the Negative Energy Plane" would throw the elf for a loop, but enough to refuse revival?

[Porthos]

Its a moot point considering V's body is "shielded from all harm." But on Roy's assumption V was dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html) is there anyway for Durkon to convince a reluctant dead person to accept a raise from a lawful evil cleric?

'Durkon on line one' probably covers it. :smallwink:


Are there alternative methods for Durkon to raise an unwilling person?

Durkon? If he somehow got a couple of more levels (which is going to be difficult with that level adjustment he just got) and got access to Miracle (or, again, somehow, got access to a scroll of it) then a VERY carefully worded Miracle might do it (I say carefully worded to get around the rule that says people don't have to be brought back to life if they don't like the person trying to bring them back).

However, stepping outside the guaranteed to work guidelines of Miracle/Wish is asking for trouble. Nothing makes a DM (or storyteller in this case) smile more than someone using Miracle/Wish for things that aren't on the auto-approved list. :smalltongue:

NOTE:::: And in this specific case, the forces that embody the Negative Energy Plane might simply shrug their shoulders and say "Sorry, bub. We have a 'No headhunting' understanding with the Elven gods. We don't feel like pissing them off today.

[Chantelune]

I thought the people being raised only knew the alignement of the spellcaster, not the name. :smallconfused:

[Vedhin]

Given that V is Neutral, why would the alignment be that big of a deal?

[Chantelune]

She might think that this is Malack trying to raise her (if she doesn't get the name, just the alignement). Or Redcloack for that matter.

As of right now, V doesn't know that Durkon is a vampire (though she might have seen it since she got held, but if she were dead, unless she were scrying down there, she wouldn't know). So she would expect to be raised by a lawful good cleric, not a lawful evil one.

[Porthos]

I thought the people being raised only knew the alignement of the spellcaster, not the name. :smallconfused:

Name, alignment, and diety (if any). :smallsmile:



Revivification against One’s Will (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#bringingBacktheDead)

A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis.

NOTE: Before 3e, this wasn't the case. You couldn't refuse a Raise Dead/Resurrection/Reincarnation.

Which lead to.... interesting situations in some of the games I played. :smallannoyed:

[Chantelune]

Ah, my bad, then.

Still, even with the name, the sudden change in alignement and deity might gives pause to V. She might conclude something along those line and refuse to be on the safe side. Or at least try to scry down there to assess the situation before accepting.

So, "Durkon on line one" would be no problem, but "Evil Durkon on line one" might be another matter. ^^;

[Synesthesy]

But.... If V was dead, his/her soul would be in the fiend's hands. I don't know if Durkula (or anyone) can just resurrect him/her.

However, everything should be better, even being resurrected by an evil Durkon (s)he doesn't know why is evil.

[Porthos]

Ah, my bad, then.

Still, even with the name, the sudden change in alignement and deity might gives pause to V. She might conclude something along those line and refuse to be on the safe side. Or at least try to scry down there to assess the situation before accepting.

So, "Durkon on line one" would be no problem, but "Evil Durkon on line one" might be another matter. ^^;

Except V's been viewing everything that's been happening on the HD-TV, so he knows that Durkon, while evil is still a good enough porthole in a storm.

[Chantelune]

Except V's been viewing everything that's been happening on the HD-TV, so he knows that Durkon, while evil is still a good enough porthole in a storm.

Yeah, but we're talking under the assumption that V died, so i doubt the fiends would just let her watch if that was the case. Especially if there's a chance the Durkula try to raise her.

[Sir_Leorik]

NOTE: Before 3e, this wasn't the case. You couldn't refuse a Raise Dead/Resurrection/Reincarnation.

Which lead to.... interesting situations in some of the games I played. :smallannoyed:

I'm assuming you're talking about the Reincarnation spell? :smallmad: Yeah, I really hate that spell, regardless of edition. In 3.X it has the annoying trait of being much cheaper than the Raise Dead spell, so two of my Living Greyhawk characters were subject to it by the cheapskates I was playing with. :smallannoyed: My Elf Rogue was reincarnated as a Gnome; on the plus side she gained a bonus to AC and Attack rolls to compensate for a lower Dexterity score, but it was annoying. My Druid was reincarnated as a Goblin, and booted from the campaign (two months before LG ended for good, ironically enough). It really didn't help that my Druid only died because the slack jawed yokels at the table did not do anything of substance for the first two rounds of combat! My Druid was targeted by the enemy, since I'd played previous modules in the series; that didn't excuse the wide-eyed stares of the other players as they discussed what was happening. :smallfurious:

Oh and Porthos, you left out the two best parts of getting brought back from the dead in AD&D: Resurrection Survival rolls and the permanent loss of a point of Constitution each time. :smallyuk:

[Dalek Kommander]

Yeah, but we're talking under the assumption that V died, so i doubt the fiends would just let her watch if that was the case. Especially if there's a chance the Durkula try to raise her.

Most importantly, the Fiends didn't reserve the right to yank V's soul out of his body THREE times if they weren't intending to invoke the privilege more than once.

[SinsI]

Its a moot point considering V's body is "shielded from all harm." But on Roy's assumption V was dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html) is there anyway for Durkon to convince a reluctant dead person to accept a raise from a lawful evil cleric? Are there alternative methods for Durkon to raise an unwilling person?

Why would V be against being wrestled from the horrors of Abyss? It's goodies that are having too much fun to care about this side of the world, the evils will welcome any chance to escape their eternal torment.

[MtlGuy]

Its a moot point considering V's body is "shielded from all harm." But on Roy's assumption V was dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html) is there anyway for Durkon to convince a reluctant dead person to accept a raise from a lawful evil cleric? Are there alternative methods for Durkon to raise an unwilling person?

He could cast "Speak with Dead" first and explain the situation to V's spirit.

[Anatares]

Here's another factor to consider: V might reject the ressurection outright because s/he wouldn't want to be used by the IFCC another couple times. Their plans for V revolve around V being in the middle of the action. But if V decides to stay dead instead, everyone else compensates around not having him/her in the equation. They find a new wizard to add to the party - Maybe Zz'dtri. Then again, maybe not :P

[Bulldog Psion]

Depending on V's situation after death, there exists a chance that he or she would accept a resurrection from anyone rather than remain dead. :smalleek:

[Synesthesy]

He could cast "Speak with Dead" first and explain the situation to V's spirit.

Nope. He can't. That spell doesn't work that way

[Chantelune]

Depending on V's situation after death, there exists a chance that he or she would accept a resurrection from anyone rather than remain dead. :smalleek:

Or she might decide that she deserves whatever she get and refuse to go back to the living so she won't cause any more misery. Given her state of mind a few hours before the snatching, sounds possible to me.

[Bulldog Psion]

Or she might decide that she deserves whatever she get and refuse to go back to the living so she won't cause any more misery. Given her state of mind a few hours before the snatching, sounds possible to me.

Sounds plausible in theory, but I don't know how long that would last.

[veti]

Nope. He can't. That spell doesn't work that way

Actually, it might (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html).

Against the idea: that's a very, very early reference and probably something the Giant would have no reservation about ignoring/contradicting later, if it suited him.

For it: the SwD spell, as statted, is clearly intended to be used by adventurers for adventuring purposes. The idea that it might be useful for roleplaying frankly never seems to have crossed anyone's mind. A DM who wants to encourage actual roleplaying has every reason to apply a lot of latitude there.

[Porthos]

I'm assuming you're talking about the Reincarnation spell? :smallmad:

Reincarnation was bad enough (used to make a joke that our characters wandered around with a card that had Reincarnation Y/N with a checkmark next to the relevant box :smalltongue:).

No, I was referring to a plot-element in one of the games I was in where the one of the main baddies was a highly evil group who made it their goal to drag off the bodies of people they killed and.... bring them back with a different point of view, shall we say.

That is Raise them and then Mindwarp them into being eeeeeevil.

It was their way of recruiting. :smalltongue:

Nowadays though when Racilorth The Unhinged, Chaotic Evil follower of <YOU REALLY DON'T WANT TO KNOW> tries to bring you back, you can just hang up the phone and go back to sipping Mai Tais on the beach somewhere.

Back then? Not so much. :smalltongue:

ETA:::

Besides the admittedly slightly unique situation in that game, there's the more standard "Baddie captures your teammate before you get the chance to bring them back and is pumping them for information/holding them hostage/taken them somewhere where" take.

Not being able to say "No" to being brought back could lead to all sorts of 'interesting' complications at the game table besides the initial one I laid out.

It swung both ways, of course. But I for one was VERY glad the refusal of the call came into play.

If only so I could hang up the phone with a vengance when I got the call from Elissa Treewalker TN worshiper of the Outlands. :smalltongue:

[asphias]

why would V decide not to answer the call of resurrection?

you're dead, and someone is willing to bring you back to life. whats the worst they can do? kill you again? and it might well be the only chance to get back to life, who knows how long it takes before anyone else tries a resurrection on you?

i wouldn't mind a raise, even if it from an evil guy.

[snikrept]

OMG. Durkon can now resurrect Girard and/or his followers. I can't believe I just got that.

[Shale]

Why in Thor's name would they want to come back for a Lawful Evil cleric?

[EnragedFilia]

Hold on, I just thought of something... if Haley cast Resurrection from a scroll (which she may or may not capable of, depending on her UMD modifier), would the recipient be informed of her name/alignment/lack of deity or that of whoever produced the scroll?

[Porthos]

Hold on, I just thought of something... if Haley cast Resurrection from a scroll (which she may or may not capable of, depending on her UMD modifier), would the recipient be informed of her name/alignment/lack of deity or that of whoever produced the scroll?

Her name. Her alignment (unless she UMDed it - see below).

Diety? That's a little on the tricky side. That I'm unsure of. Maybe Thor since she 'converted'? Maybe nothing? Maybe the god of the person who wrote the scroll? I admit "Haley Starshine CG follower of.... Vecna?" would be kinda hillarious. :smalltongue:

I did mention UMD. One of the things UMD can do is fool an item into thinking you're the appropriate alignment for the purproses of using it. I don't think it's that off to suggest that one could make that check (DC 30, for those curious) while casting Raise Dead/Resurrection/True Resurrection from a scroll to 'fool' the recipient into thinking you're a different alignment than you really are.

[DaggerPen]

Her name. Her alignment (unless she UMDed it - see below).

Diety? That's a little on the tricky side. That I'm unsure of. Maybe Thor since she 'converted'? Maybe nothing? Maybe the god of the person who wrote the scroll? I admit "Haley Starshine CG follower of.... Vecna?" would be kinda hillarious. :smalltongue:

I did mention UMD. One of the things UMD can do is fool an item into thinking you're the appropriate alignment for the purproses of using it. I don't think it's that off to suggest that one could make that check (DC 30, for those curious) while casting Raise Dead/Resurrection/True Resurrection from a scroll to 'fool' the recipient into thinking you're a different alignment than you really are.

... come to think of it, if they'd thought of that, Durkon could have scribed a Resurrect scroll and let Haley try to rez a Draketooth. They might be more willing to come back for a chaotic good "cleric," even if they don't recognize the name, perhaps having assumed that they were dragged to some random chaotic good cleric to rez them since none of the family were clerics.

[sr123]

why would V decide not to answer the call of resurrection? you're dead, and someone is willing to bring you back to life. whats the worst they can do?

410 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html): "... in the Chaotic Good afterlife, sipping single-malt scotch.... Why the hell would he want to come back, knowing you'll throw him in prison?"

- You'd be taken away from paradise (and by many interpretations, Evil afterlife is paradise for Evil people) to deal with real life in all its suckiness.

844 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html): "... paranoid fool who will suffer just to spite someone."

- From the same strip, the Draketooths wouldn't want to be raised by LG or any strange folk because they have valuable information on the gate's location and defenses, which may jeopardize the gate/world/existence.

(By the way, what is the explanation of the "buttcheeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html)" riddle in 845?)

[DaggerPen]

(By the way, what is the explanation of the "buttcheeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html)" riddle in 845?)

Girard's rift = Girard's buttcrack, not the rift in reality that Girard took it upon himself to guard.

[Reddish Mage]

Why would V be against being wrestled from the horrors of Abyss? It's goodies that are having too much fun to care about this side of the world, the evils will welcome any chance to escape their eternal torment.

This assumes V would be in the Abyss, aside from the bargain to spend all of the better part of an hour with the fiends being fulfilled why would V be in CE territory by the time A raise spell was cast?



He could cast "Speak with Dead" first and explain the situation to V's spirit.

Despite the comic here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) the spell description has you speaking with the body not the departed soul.

[SinsI]

This assumes V would be in the Abyss, aside from the bargain to spend all of the better part of an hour with the fiends being fulfilled why would V be in CE territory by the time A raise spell was cast?

Tartarus, Hades or Gehenna are not much better for a mass murderer...

[EnragedFilia]

Remember that the rest of the team doesn't know anything about V's dealings with beings from planes in the ventral position, so under that sort of convoluted triple-subjunctive scenario we're constructing (and according to Roy's understanding of the mechanics involved) V should still be in the middle of the alignment interview with whatever sort of outsider is the caseworker for true neutral petitioners.

[re_e]

Her name. Her alignment (unless she UMDed it - see below).

Diety? That's a little on the tricky side. That I'm unsure of. Maybe Thor since she 'converted'? Maybe nothing? Maybe the god of the person who wrote the scroll? I admit "Haley Starshine CG follower of.... Vecna?" would be kinda hillarious. :smalltongue:

I did mention UMD. One of the things UMD can do is fool an item into thinking you're the appropriate alignment for the purproses of using it. I don't think it's that off to suggest that one could make that check (DC 30, for those curious) while casting Raise Dead/Resurrection/True Resurrection from a scroll to 'fool' the recipient into thinking you're a different alignment than you really are.

No. Haley Starshine, Chaotic Good, Reformed Banjoist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html) :smallbiggrin:

[rodneyAnonymous]

(By the way, what is the explanation of the "buttcheeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html)" riddle in 845?)


Girard's rift = Girard's buttcrack, not the rift in reality that Girard took it upon himself to guard.

It is not a riddle. It is just some ass comedy. "Where is Girard's buttcrack?" "Between his buttcheeks."

[137beth]

He could cast "Speak with Dead" first and explain the situation to V's spirit.

He doesn't even need to: V's been watching the whole thing from the IFCC's HD blood-plasma TV.

[Ramza00]

Wouldn't sending allow communication with the dead?

[Chantelune]

Wouldn't sending allow communication with the dead?

I doubt sending has interplanar range.

[EnragedFilia]

I doubt sending has interplanar range.

It mostly does:


If the creature in question is not on the same plane of existence as you are, there is a 5% chance that the sending does not arrive. (Local conditions on other planes may worsen this chance considerably.)

Of course, it's a different question whether a petitioner counts as the same creature as it was while it was alive for the purposes of "with which you are familiar". I'm guessing that's the sort of issue that doesn't really come up much in a normal campaign.

[With a box]

An Epic/Crazy way to resurrect someone.
require :
1. Find where to soul gone
2. make a gate to here and in front of target's soul(in afterlife)
3. Go back to prime material and close the gate.
4. Appease deity

I think there is a way to put soul in someone's body.

obviously oots can't do such thing, but is it tactically possible?

[AgentofOdd]

It'll be overkill if you're trying to bring back someone who wants to come back, but if you want to resurrect a person who doesn't wish to be bought back to life? I'd say it could work. You'll probably have a hard time justifying such an act to a good deity if you take one of their followers though.

[Hawkeye]

Name, alignment, and diety (if any). :smallsmile

Probably not Atkins, some monsters said that can't be good in the long term. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html)

((sorry, couldn't resist :p))

[sr123]

It is not a riddle. It is just some ass comedy. "Where is Girard's buttcrack?" "Between his buttcheeks."

Well F me, I'd been on the edge of my seat for over 50 strips, waiting for some kind of clue or relief from such dramatic foreshadowing. Now you're telling me that it was all for just a one-strip throwaway joke?

GRAH! I RESCIND MY KICKSTARTER PLEDGE! (I can still do that, right?)

[Sir_Leorik]

Reincarnation was bad enough (used to make a joke that our characters wandered around with a card that had Reincarnation Y/N with a checkmark next to the relevant box :smalltongue:).

I guess that's something adventurers need to fill out instead of an organ donate card! :smallbiggrin: Notice to Druids: DNR: Do not Reincarnate! (Of course you might need an organ donate card in some campaigns, to opt out of being used for a Flesh Golem! :smalltongue:)


No, I was referring to a plot-element in one of the games I was in where the one of the main baddies was a highly evil group who made it their goal to drag off the bodies of people they killed and.... bring them back with a different point of view, shall we say.

That is Raise them and then Mindwarp them into being eeeeeevil.

It was their way of recruiting. :smalltongue:

Sounds like you guys were fighting Marvel Comics' The Hand. :smallamused: They killed, resurrected and brainwashed heroes like Elektra, Wolverine and Northstar, a few years ago. Northstar as an evil Ninja: able to run and fly faster than the speed of sound... while making no noise! :smallbiggrin:

[Reddish Mage]

Remember that the rest of the team doesn't know anything about V's dealings with beings from planes in the ventral position, so under that sort of convoluted triple-subjunctive scenario we're constructing (and according to Roy's understanding of the mechanics involved) V should still be in the middle of the alignment interview with whatever sort of outsider is the caseworker for true neutral petitioners.

Isn't the interview based examination process seems more of a Lawful thing?

[Porthos]

I guess that's something adventurers need to fill out instead of an organ donate card! :smallbiggrin: Notice to Druids: DNR: Do not Reincarnate!

Protip: Don't roll low on pre-3.5e Reincarnation tables. :smallmad:

Especially if you're in a group that can't do much of anything about the new badger that has just entered the world. :smallannoyed:

[Roland Itiative]

Even speak with dead does not allow to really speak with the soul, only to the corpse which uses the knowledge of the soul it hosted before dying.
That's the case in RAW, but not necessarily in the OotS universe. Zombies are also supposed to not have the original soul, and yet the ABD clearly had its soul when V zombified it. And doesn't Roy's mother say something about using this very spell to keep in contact?

[EnragedFilia]

Isn't the interview based examination process seems more of a Lawful thing?

It really does, now that you mention it. Perhaps true neutral followers of the Elven deities are instead subjected to a philosophical debate with fellow petitioners until a consensus emerges regarding the decedent's future disposition. I expect that Richard Dawkins would approve.

Of course, Roy and Durkon would have no way of knowing about such a thing, and in any event the important part is that a hypothetical dead V shouldn't have reached any variety of eternal reward just yet.

[alternaloser]

An Epic/Crazy way to resurrect someone.
require :
1. Find where to soul gone
2. make a gate to here and in front of target's soul(in afterlife)
3. Go back to prime material and close the gate.
4. Appease deity

I think there is a way to put soul in someone's body.

obviously oots can't do such thing, but is it tactically possible?

Interesting thought, but as written the Gate spell states:

"Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire"

[Knight.Anon]

You have to assume that V is watching the material plance on 4k HD Pay-Per-Skry right now. So Durkon's status wouldn't confuse her.

[137beth]

Interesting thought, but as written the Gate spell states:

"Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire"

Hence he included step 4: appease a [the correct] deity.
Which actually negates the need for the entire procedure, since step 4 alone should be enough.

[EnragedFilia]

Apparantly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm#planarCommitment), petitioners can't actually do that. Of course, the rules also say that not all dead mortals become petitioners, but it doesn't say much of anything about what happens to those that don't. At any rate, that does create at least a particular set of dead mortals who can't be brought back by interplanar transportation.