Phrenic ML and PrCs that add +1 ML/level

[Segev]

The Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) template makes any creature that has it psionic, and gives a bevy of psi-like abilities with ML equal to the creature's HD.

It thus definitely has a manifester level, and its HD - all of its HD - can be said to advance it.

Would Overchannel (which you qualify for as a psionic creature) be able to improve this ML?

If one were to make, say, a Phrenic Human Incarnate with Overchannel, one could qualify by level 6 for Anarchic Initiate. Anarchic Initiate gives, at each level, "+1 level of existing manifesting class." Phrenic makes its HD into ML-granting and psi-like ability granting levels.

Would this double the advancement rate? Would a Phrenic Human Incarnate 5/Anarchic Initiate 8 have an ML of 21 for its psi-like abilities? Would it be gaining its HD-based access to new psi-like abilities at double rate during its anarchic initiate levels, due to each one advancing both a real HD and an effective "level" in its manifesting "class?"

[sleepyphoenixx]

Phrenic is not a class, so i would say no.

[Segev]

Hm. So by your reading, it would have to be something like the Green Star Adept (but for psionics), where it explicitly raised ML but not "+1 class level?"

[sleepyphoenixx]

By RAW, yes. As a DM i probably wouldn't mind if you want it.
It's not like increasing Phrenic's ML benefits you all that much. Those powers are still psi-like abilities so you can't augment them, so the only thing you're increasing is the range of some powers.
Even if it would stack you wouldn't get your abilities any sooner since they are explictly derived from HD, not from ML.
In the same way Phrenic does nothing for Psicrystal Affinity since a psicrystals abilities are based on levels in psionic classes, not ML.

I can't really see what you're trying to accomplish here. You could qualify for a PrC that requires a ML but no powers of a specific level i guess. I just don't see what you would want a psionic PrC for if you have no powers to advance.

[Segev]

Actually...

The big thing is that yes, it does augment the powers. Under the rules for monsters with psi-like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/overview.htm#psiLikeAbilities), it says:
When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC. However, the creature does not actually spend power points for its psi-like abilities, even if it has a power point reserve due to racial abilities, class levels, or some other psionic ability.

So it can be quite powerful to be able to double up on it like that! (Moreover, Overchannel allowing it to stack just that much higher is interesting, since it auto-augments, as well.)

And this is mostly TO, though the Phrenic template is one of the most PC-friendly I've seen. (And, for me, any TO is of less interest if I can't find a practical way to use some part of it in a playable sort of way, because the point of TO, to me, is the same as what I understand the ludicrous things my old housemate watched on fashion runways: high concept that will break down into more practical things for production runs later on.)

[Snowbluff]

Phrenic is really strong. The SLAs are pretty good, and the template is a favorite with Magic in the Blood and Half Fey. Most casters aren't so luck to have that many spells.

While you can't level Phrenic with classes, other boosts should work.

[Fax Celestis]

You could also use it to qualify for psionic PrCs that don't advance manifesting, like War Mind, Psychic Fist, Sighted Seeker, or Pyrokineticist (without dipping into Hyperconscious or Untapped Potential).

[sleepyphoenixx]

So, there's tons of ways to increase CL. Are there any easy ML increases aside from Practiced Manifester (which obviously won't do anything for phrenic)?
Could you use the magic mantle to get CL increases to apply to ML?

[Segev]

So...

Overchannel, the Ioun Stone that gives +1 ML, and Wild Surge would all work.

You could, indeed, use it to get into PrCs that require 1 pp or being a manifester; oddly, you coudln't get into Psionic Fist, because it explicitly requires Wild Talent.


Edit: Using the Magic Mantle to add CL increases to it is also an interesting idea. I think the answer to whether that would work lies in whether or not the Magic Mantle would let you treat a PrC that gave +1 spellcaster level as giving +1 to a manifesting class. e.g., would it allow you to advance, say, Ardent or Psion with Mindbender? What about Wizard with Slayer?


If so... Practiced Manifester could be given a purpose if you picked up Wild Mage and were playing with the interpretation that the -3 CL can be offset by Practiced Spellcaster before the +1d6 is added back in.

[Fax Celestis]

oddly, you coudln't get into Psionic Fist, because it explicitly requires Wild Talent.

DSP fixed this in Psionics Unleashed (the PF adaptation).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Magic Mantle is pretty ambiguously worded. It's probably out unless you have a very lenient DM.