Question about Artificers, Gnome Artificers and Engineering

[Peacock King]

Hey all! Haven't posted in ages but had a question seeing as how my last character recently met his untimely demise I've moved on to greater pastures...

I've recently become fascinated by the role technology plays in the D&D universe by way of Artificers, Alchemists and the like. But I had a question concerning the presence of "open ended concepts". Let me explain...

The Artificer core class from Ebberon is masterfully put together with tons of options for feats and range but yet everything you make falls into that same "mundane item imbued with magic properties" category...like a flaming sword or jump boots and all that. The Gnome Artificer prestige class from Faerun has so much more of that open ended design in regards to what types of devices you can built yet the class as a whole is severely lacking. I've looked through the other options like Maester, Effigy Master, even the Pathfinder "Alchemist" core class but none have what I'm looking for, rules for creating truly original devices and constructs from scratch.

In the end i know it comes down to aesthetics...you could easily use the stats from one established item or device and just assume it looks like something else but I dunno...it lacks a certain bit of "pzazz" in my opinion. Like could one build a steam driven wheeled vehicle? What about a giant clockwork spider? And what of magic fueled firearms?

I had this idea for a combination melee/ranged weapon that resembles a long barreled rifle with a bayonet that can be used like a spear to stab or slash, inspired by the character "Andrew" from Samurai Showdown 6: http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters3/andrew-a.html

Within the barrel you could install a pre-loaded wand with charges of something like Scorching Ray or Magic Missile...run an enemy through and then remove him from your muzzle with the pull of a trigger.

Okay yeah I'm rambling now; for that I apologize LOL. As I said before I'm still relatively new to all this so any complicated terminology might be a bit hard to follow for me. Thanks in advance for any help you can give!

[unseenmage]

I'm unsure what exactly you're asking. Are you saying that you want more item creation options than the Custom Magic Item guidelines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)? More than the Combining Magic Item rules from the Item Compendium?
If those aren't enough you could look into the Wondrous Architecture rules from the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, the Feats in Items sidebar in the Arms and Equipment Guide, and/or the idea that Constructs count as magic items and can be customized as such.

Or are you saying you want more application of physics to the D&D-verse via magic through some form of arcane engineering of sorts? If this is the case there's probably some third party book out there that deals more with the nuts and bolts application of magic to engineering. Though I'm afraid I'm not versed enough to know which book that might be.



For me personally, the idea of setting up spells to interact with each other like mystic gears and cogs is fascinating. Especially when combined with the above Wondrous Architecture, Feats in Items, Custom Constructs, Custom Magic Items, etc etc.

The concept of interweaving spells that cast spells, spells that store spells, spells that create, spells that craft, spells that animate, grant sentience, grant life, grant undeath, etc into some great awesome mega arcana machine is just cool. I've just never been able to wrap my head completely around it. :smallfrown:

[Darkhope]

Check out Iron Kingdoms CS for their item creation rules. Probably exactly what your looking for. You could sell it to your DM in a standard D&D setting or Faerun setting by saying your family invented the magi-tech recently and your the child prodigy trying to perfect it. I built an Iron Man suit one time using these rules. It was very, very, cool :). It would actually be way easier and far more powerful in a standard setting. Iron Kingdoms had a rule similar to Mystra's Ban that no exp could be expended in excess of a certain amount to prevent powerful magical enchantments. So they started creating multiple components of small enchantments to make items.

[Urpriest]

I recommend this homebrew thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291019). Basically, what you want is an open-ended system that makes technology feel like technology. You're not going to get it with first-party D&D aside from a few weird corner cases like Psionic Tattoos, but this guy pulls it off admirably.

[SowZ]

You can apply metamagic to a wand by expending extra charges. Get a quicken spell of (insert evocation spell here) in a wand chamber on your spear and you can stab and shoot in the same round. Easy peasy.

[Peacock King]

Alright what I'm trying to get at is, any time you want to build something as an artificer or just someone with a lot of craft feats, you always have to restrict your options to conventional norms within the system. Every construct is based off of either a Shield Guardian or Iron Golem, every weapon has to be based on something mundane like a sword or spear, etc. There's no rule set to really break down the process step by step to create more original concepts.

Like we all know a Shield Guardian costs 5,000 GP to construct and takes a Craft DC16 check and all that but how does that break down? What goes into raw materials as opposed to magical components? How much does it cost to make a functional arm as opposed to the locomotive force to give it movement? If they had established rules to break it down a bit further and showed how much each aspect cost individually in both GP and EXP you could easily come up with completely original ideas...like a Shield Guardian with extra arms or shaped like a dragon with a breath weapon, etc.

I guess my main point is I'd like it if they made it so you could construct more complex things rather than falling into all the same "templates" they make available to you.

[unseenmage]

Alright what I'm trying to get at is, any time you want to build something as an artificer or just someone with a lot of craft feats, you always have to restrict your options to conventional norms within the system. Every construct is based off of either a Shield Guardian or Iron Golem, every weapon has to be based on something mundane like a sword or spear, etc. There's no rule set to really break down the process step by step to create more original concepts.

Like we all know a Shield Guardian costs 5,000 GP to construct and takes a Craft DC16 check and all that but how does that break down? What goes into raw materials as opposed to magical components? How much does it cost to make a functional arm as opposed to the locomotive force to give it movement? If they had established rules to break it down a bit further and showed how much each aspect cost individually in both GP and EXP you could easily come up with completely original ideas...like a Shield Guardian with extra arms or shaped like a dragon with a breath weapon, etc.

I guess my main point is I'd like it if they made it so you could construct more complex things rather than falling into all the same "templates" they make available to you.

Well, you can do those things, it just takes some player and DM communication, understanding of the system(s) that are already available, and some creativity.
Like all RPGing there's only so much any given system is capable of without some houseruling and homebrewing.

Darkhope had a good suggestion with the Iron Kingdoms. Their system is much more about the bits and pieces than the overarching templates.

When I ran my Artificer I worked with my DM to create custom Constructs and Items all over the place. And yeah, there was some small amount of staleness that I tried to avoid, but that's how I stumbled upon Custom Magic Constructs and applying the Animate Objects spell and the Minor Servitor spell to Alchemical items like Shapesand or magically created substances like Quintessence.

With Custom Spells and Custom Magic Items as core options it tends to be relatively easy to create (in conjunction with your DM, of course) whatever crunchier aspects of the game you'd like.

Invent fractional items that must be combined with other fractional items to create a whole Item or Construct. Each costs it's fraction of the total cost in xp/gp/materials.
Want it more crunchy? Make it so each has to be combined with a larger whole so you can't just make a given item from eighteen 1/18th fractional items but you have to have a 1/2 item combined with a 1/4 item etc etc.

The sky's the limit for customization and additional rules. You just gotta be willing to either a) do the research or b) create what feels more satifactory to you playstyle/expectations.

I hope the above does not offend. That is not it's purpose. There's just a lot one can accomplish with the system as is, and after including third party sources in there there's even more.

[SowZ]

Alright what I'm trying to get at is, any time you want to build something as an artificer or just someone with a lot of craft feats, you always have to restrict your options to conventional norms within the system. Every construct is based off of either a Shield Guardian or Iron Golem, every weapon has to be based on something mundane like a sword or spear, etc. There's no rule set to really break down the process step by step to create more original concepts.

Like we all know a Shield Guardian costs 5,000 GP to construct and takes a Craft DC16 check and all that but how does that break down? What goes into raw materials as opposed to magical components? How much does it cost to make a functional arm as opposed to the locomotive force to give it movement? If they had established rules to break it down a bit further and showed how much each aspect cost individually in both GP and EXP you could easily come up with completely original ideas...like a Shield Guardian with extra arms or shaped like a dragon with a breath weapon, etc.

I guess my main point is I'd like it if they made it so you could construct more complex things rather than falling into all the same "templates" they make available to you.

Refluff, man. Make something with the stats of a shield golem but call it something totally different. Make a spear with a wand slot holding a wand of quickened magic missiles but call it a Gunblade.