Best Vampires?

[Milo v3]

In regards to actual playability, which vampire rules are the best for playing:
Standard Core Vampires, Monster class from Libris Mortis, the Vampire rules from the Complete Guide to Vampires, or one of the variant vampire templates?

To be clear, when I say best I don't mean most powerful. Instead I more mean most playable, because the LA of a standard vampire seems way too high to be reasonably playable.

[Erik Vale]

Vampire + Vampire lord, the abilities are huge and sunlight doesn't affect you, with no additional LA raise.
Beyond that I've got nothing to offer, but if your willing to allow homebrew [guesses are no based on the question], Giantitp has a lot to offer in that department for vampire fixes.

[Milo v3]

Vampire + Vampire lord, the abilities are huge and sunlight doesn't affect you, with no additional LA raise.
Beyond that I've got nothing to offer, but if your willing to allow homebrew [guesses are no based on the question], Giantitp has a lot to offer in that department for vampire fixes.

What book's Vampire Lord in?

And sadly, Homebrew isn't allowed for this. Otherwise I'd just use the Vampire Template I put on these forums :smalltongue:

[Karnith]

What book's Vampire Lord in?
It's not in a book, actually; it's from an old article on the mothership (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a). Also, it's 3.0 material, so it lacks a level adjustment entry entirely. RAW this means it doesn't change the base creature's LA (effectively making it a LA +0 template), but your DM may have something to say about that.

[Yogibear41]

other than half-vampire what other variant vampire templates are you talking about?


Also is complete guide to vampires a 3rd party book? I am unfamiliar with it.

Homebrew is more or less 3rd party if you think about it.

[Milo v3]

It's not in a book, actually; it's from an old article on the mothership (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a).
... My laptop possesses blocks so I can't see WotC. :smallannoyed:
I'll have to look at it on my phone then. :smallsigh:


other than half-vampire what other variant vampire templates are you talking about?
Of the top of my head there's Corpse Vampire or Fleshblood Vampire. They're in a book which revolves around templates. Forget which one.


Also is complete guide to vampires a 3rd party book? I am unfamiliar with it.

Homebrew is more or less 3rd party if you think about it.
It's 3rd party, part of a collection of books called "The Complete Guide to ...". Generally its vampires, liches, werewolves, but some are unexpected like Treants and Velociraptors.

And while 3rd party is effectively homebrew, the GM decided that 3rd party stuff is "probably" allowed but homebrew isn't.

[Karnith]

other than half-vampire what other variant vampire templates are you talking about?
I'm not the OP (obviously), but Libris Mortis has the moonbane, persuasive, psychic, savage, and swarmform vampire variants, and Dragon 348 has the savage (distinct from the LM savage vampire, even though they share a name), shadow, and terror vampire variants.

All of them are basically unplayable, though, since the lowest LA among them is the shadow vampire's LA +6. All of the LM variants keep the LA +8 of a normal vampire, and the Dragon savage and terror vampire templates are LA +10.

[ArcturusV]

And OA has something like the Pangollin vampire.. which has even more LA, but at least is interesting enough in that you're not stuck with a lot of crippling Vampire Weaknesses. So possibly worth thinking about.

But as far as playability? I can't think of one that really is. The Vampire Weaknesses are horrible and incredibly crippling in ways that most players don't think about until they're forced to deal with it.

DM: "There's a stream between you and the goblin camp."

Human: "I hop over the stream."

Vampire: "I do so too."

DM: "You can't. It's water, you can't cross it unless in a ship or in your coffin."

Vampire: ".... goddammit."

Long as situations like that exist, I wouldn't suggest playing vampires to my players. But out of all of them, I'd probably go with 1 level in the Vampire Spawn Monster Class, then ditch out of it. Least for playability.

[Yogibear41]

I really do hate the concept of LA at times, turning yourself into a vampire, lich, or werewolf should never be anything but a boon (except for the obvious disadvantages of being one of the above, such as sunlight to a vampire)


One of my DMs let a character use a wish spell to remove his LA once, but thats not something readily available to your average low/mid level character.

[Raven777]

The Pathfinder Vampire (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/vampire.html#_vampire) has roughly the same abilities as the 3.5 one, but since PF suggests using CR for LA, it is only LA +2, much more manageable. Pathfinder also has the Protective Penumbra (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/protectivePenumbra.html#_protective-penumbra) spell from the Invocation school, which Vampires can use to endure sunlight for 10 min/level and can be taken as is or emulated with Shadow Evocation if spell slots are tight. For best results, craft it into a constant effect ring or amulet for... napkin math... 9000gp.

[Milo v3]

I really do hate the concept of LA at times, turning yourself into a vampire, lich, or werewolf should never be anything but a boon (except for the obvious disadvantages of being one of the above, such as sunlight to a vampire)


One of my DMs let a character use a wish spell to remove his LA once, but thats not something readily available to your average low/mid level character.

What do you mean? A 9th level vampire should have a wizard in their party who can cast Wish. Which just shows you how ridiculous the LA of Vampires is. :smalltongue:

EDIT:

The Pathfinder Vampire (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/vampire.html#_vampire) has roughly the same abilities as the 3.5 one, but since PF suggests using CR for LA, it is only LA +2, much more manageable. Pathfinder also has the Protective Penumbra (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/protectivePenumbra.html#_protective-penumbra) spell from the Invocation school, which Vampires can use to endure sunlight for 10 min/level and can be taken as is or emulated with Shadow Evocation if spell slots are tight. For best results, craft it into a constant effect ring or amulet for... napkin math... 9000gp.
That's actually a pretty good idea. That could be useful

[Yogibear41]

Yeah lol but when our DM let him wish his LA away he was still level one(had a +5 la I believe lol) but he had the experience of around a level 4 or 5 character so he was close to actually getting his first level, but the DM said well okay but the rules say you cap your XP at 1 away from gaining a 2nd level if you haven't already gained the first so he did get rid of his LA, but he also lost alot of experience points in the process lol.


Also he sold his soul to get a wish spell(never a good idea lol) sure his alignment is LG lol.

[Raven777]

But as far as playability? I can't think of one that really is. The Vampire Weaknesses are horrible and incredibly crippling in ways that most players don't think about until they're forced to deal with it.

DM: "There's a stream between you and the goblin camp."

Human: "I hop over the stream."

Vampire: "I do so too."

DM: "You can't. It's water, you can't cross it unless in a ship or in your coffin."

Vampire: ".... goddammit."

Long as situations like that exist, I wouldn't suggest playing vampires to my players. But out of all of them, I'd probably go with 1 level in the Vampire Spawn Monster Class, then ditch out of it. Least for playability.

Dimension Door has called. It would like a word with you. It also brought its friends Overland Flight and Alter Self. :smalltongue:

"Speed: Same as the base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire is not unduly harmed by running water."

The Pathfinder Vampire is harmed by running water. Nothing says he cannot cross it.

The real problem (which I had to unlive through recently) is getting into people's houses / dungeon. "Sorry, you can't enter the BBEG's fortress without invitation" was kind of a show stopper. But you know what I found out? If you liberally apply alchemist fire to someone's estate and they call for help when the place gets ablaze, it counts as an invitation! :smallbiggrin:

[Cerlis]

I really do hate the concept of LA at times, turning yourself into a vampire, lich, or werewolf should never be anything but a boon (except for the obvious disadvantages of being one of the above, such as sunlight to a vampire)


One of my DMs let a character use a wish spell to remove his LA once, but thats not something readily available to your average low/mid level character.

It IS only a boon. be in a lvl 10 party and then get a vampire to turn you. bamf, most powerful person in the group.

the thing is the level in power. Hey you could play a lvl one game where you are a lvl 1 whatever that is also a vampire. You'd just be extremely powerful and overshadow the players. So most people play fair and use the LA. But there is nothing stopping you or anyone from having the same amount of character levels as everyone else and just being the most powerful person in the group.

-----------
Bastards and bloodlines is a 3.0 book, it has a half vampire with a +4 LA only. you get alot of the sheer stats and other special abilities, and you PICK a weakness (hint. Dont pick sunlight). That basically means either you have to watch out for garlic and mirrors, or get blood...er...donations...every now and then.

--------------------------

PS. Indeed Raven. The best part about being a vampire is cleverly overcoming your weaknesses.

P.S. Also getting your nemisis' Stupid little sister to say "Why dont you come in here and say that!" also counts as an invitation.:smallcool:

[ArcturusV]

If I remember, a Vampire can't even cross if flying and/or Mist. But that might also be me remembering older versions that didn't get updated to 3.5 exactly. Dimension Door and Teleport, sure though.

But yeah. There's just a lot of weaknesses and most players don't want to bother with it. You can't really do wilderness campaigns because of the Sunlight Issue. And if you're high enough level to afford enough Alchemy/magic to adventure all through the sunlight, you're usually high level enough to just teleport to wherever you have to go and skip the wilderness. Having anyone able to keep your character at bay with a single standard action is kinda... eh. Usual undead weaknesses like being vulnerable to turning/controlling and what not. The Mist/Coffin thing is an albatross around your neck that is written as if it's a benefit. So I usually don't recommend it, and suggest someone use a Wight or Ghoul instead (Same undead flavor, still can build a thrall horde if that's your schtick, and able to adventure a bit easier).

But never Mummies. Ever seen what happens when someone finally remembers "Oh, I have a fear aura"? :smallsigh:

[Yogibear41]

It IS only a boon. be in a lvl 10 party and then get a vampire to turn you. bamf, most powerful person in the group.

:


Well yeah, but compare a 10th level vampire wizard, or a 10th level vampire fighter to an 18th level normal wizard is more along the lines of what I meant, at the same ECL.

I'm just saying something like a lich who is suppose to be the very embodiment of magical prowess should not have his next 4 levels of wizard delayed simply because he became a lich it just doesn't make that much sense to me.

I know the whole concept of LA was designed for "game balance" but the game really isn't balanced that much anyway to begin with.

[Keneth]

If I remember, a Vampire can't even cross if flying and/or Mist.

Running water is not actually a physical barrier, but more like a mental one. A vampire simply cannot physically cross running water of its own free will, and when forcefully pushed underwater, they basically self-destruct. So yeah, this basically includes flying over it. But the question still remains: How far up must you fly to cross the stream without actually crossing the stream? What if you fly into space? :smallbiggrin:

I think D&D vampires were mostly based on Stoker's Dracula, but in all honesty, I don't know why they included running water as one of the weaknesses. I'd understand if they couldn't enter sacred ground, but running water is just such an obscure apotropaic that it stands out like a sore thumb whenever I look at it. Same with stuff like mirrors, which are pretty irrelevant in most of old world vampire folklore.

Also, Pathfinder's mythic vampire. It's what's for dinner. Because screw LA and weaknesses. :smallbiggrin:

[Hytheter]

The vampire template has a lot of issues, but I think it could be really fun... with an all-vampire party. That way the weaknesses and limitations of the vampire become party challenges instead of irritating obstacles for one player, and the LA gets balanced by default; if everyone has level adjustment, no-one does.

Of course, stronger monsters will be necessary, but that's easy enough for a DM to do.

[Pilo]

Kingdom of Kalamar Settings have a playable template in Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene book.

And they are called Sharjani.

[Alleran]

I'll make a note that if the +8 LA from the regular vampire template is too bothersome, then if you can get yourself the Dragon type, you can use the Draconic Vampire template from Draconomicon instead. It's only LA +5 (giving you most of the same benefits and some better ones), and the Vampire Lord template doesn't cost any LA at all when you add it on.

[Garagos]

I run a campaign where three of the characters are vampires. We decided to go with a +5 LA instead of +8. Still hefty, but much more reasonable I think, and its been working out fairly well so far. Just be careful not to let them abuse Dominate Person to solve every roleplaying situation. Being a vampire often raises its own unique RP situations that we've had a lot of fun with.

[The Viscount]

As for the sunlight problem, a Portable Shade from Sandstorm might help things. It requires some DM ruling.

[Nettlekid]

Something I don't think anyone's mentioned yet (apologies if it has) is the Vampire Template Class found here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). It basically splits up those 8 levels of LA into discrete chunks that have different abilities, so you can take as many of those as you want, deciding when the best cutoff point is. That's pretty useful in and of itself, but I think it's best combined with Legacy Champion from Weapons of Legacy, that PrC that offers 8 out of 10 levels of progression of previous classes? Basically, what you end up doing is taking Base Class 9/Vampire Template Class 1/Legacy Champion 10 (or 9 and other class 1). This ends up giving you ten solid class levels with class features (Legacy Champion's class features are nothing to write home about), all those lovely Vampire abilities you wanted, but instead of just missing out on 8 levels from that LA, you miss out on only one level and get Hit Dice, BAB, and Save Progression out of Legacy Champion. Which makes a big difference compared to just +8 LA.

[Tanuki Tales]

If we're talking Pathfinder, I personally like the Jiang-Shi (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire-jiang-shi). Some less glaring weaknesses and not the same bevvy of benefits, but I find it more playable personally.

[The Viscount]

Something I don't think anyone's mentioned yet (apologies if it has) is the Vampire Template Class found here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). It basically splits up those 8 levels of LA into discrete chunks that have different abilities, so you can take as many of those as you want, deciding when the best cutoff point is. That's pretty useful in and of itself, but I think it's best combined with Legacy Champion from Weapons of Legacy, that PrC that offers 8 out of 10 levels of progression of previous classes? Basically, what you end up doing is taking Base Class 9/Vampire Template Class 1/Legacy Champion 10 (or 9 and other class 1). This ends up giving you ten solid class levels with class features (Legacy Champion's class features are nothing to write home about), all those lovely Vampire abilities you wanted, but instead of just missing out on 8 levels from that LA, you miss out on only one level and get Hit Dice, BAB, and Save Progression out of Legacy Champion. Which makes a big difference compared to just +8 LA.

Are you sure we can do that? If so, that's extremely clever.

[Hytheter]

Wow, I'm sure there's some rules issue someone will find with it, but until then I'm gonna say the Vampire+Legacy Champion thing is really cool.

In fact, the Legacy champion seems pretty cool, though I'll have to investigate its own class features before I judge it...
edit: oh it seems to use a subsystem I'm not familiar with, hmmm...

[strider24seven]

Most playable? Wizard with a Persistent Kiss of the Vampire.
Also happens to be the most powerful.

[Fax Celestis]

Wow, I'm sure there's some rules issue someone will find with it, but until then I'm gonna say the Vampire+Legacy Champion thing is really cool.

In fact, the Legacy champion seems pretty cool, though I'll have to investigate its own class features before I judge it...
edit: oh it seems to use a subsystem I'm not familiar with, hmmm...

The Uncanny Trickster from Complete Scoundrel is a shorter version of the same: it has 2/3rds +1 Existing Class Features (it's only three levels long).