Getting One Wish(the spell) early

[Yogibear41]

What is the easiest and fastest(lowest ECL) way to get access to a wish spell(9th level version) even if only once, at a very early level?

Bonus points if it doesn't involve something suicidal like selling your soul to a devil. (seen it happen) 3 times actually lol


EDIT: lets say you want to be good aligned do it and stay good aligned afterwards.

[MilesTiden]

... Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu? Or would that qualify as 'selling your soul to a devil demon'? There's probably some way to get a Wish out of the sacrifice rules, IIRC.

[AuraTwilight]

The easiest way is to be a Paladin and say Pazuzu's name 3 times. For Paladins, they get a bonus wish that doesn't impact their alignment.

[Saintheart]

(1) Buy a scroll of Summon Monster VII and Forcecage at level one.
(2) Cast the Summon Monster VII spell from the scroll or have someone cast it for you.
(3) Summon a djinn.
(4) Ask it if it's a noble djinn. If it isn't, return to step 1.
(5) If it is, cast Forcecage on it from the scroll.
(6) You have now captured a noble djinn and can demand three wishes from it.

[Yogibear41]

Not really that familiar with him, but google tells me bad things from a quick search so that seems like a bad idea.

[Psyren]

The easiest way is to be a Paladin and say Pazuzu's name 3 times. For Paladins, they get a bonus wish that doesn't impact their alignment.

Actually, it does impact their alignment. "He takes pains to ensure no evil comes of his assistance" - however, the shift to chaotic happens first, so a paladin who calls upon his aid will become NG and immediately fall by RAW.


(1) Buy a scroll of Summon Monster VII and Forcecage at level one.
(2) Cast the Summon Monster VII spell from the scroll or have someone cast it for you.
(3) Summon a djinn.
(4) Ask it if it's a noble djinn. If it isn't, return to step 1.
(5) If it is, cast Forcecage on it from the scroll.
(6) You have now captured a noble djinn and can demand three wishes from it.

This won't work; summoned creatures cannot use any SLA that would cost them XP if they were spells. You have to call (bind or gate) a noble djinn, not summon it.

Forcecage wouldn't trap it anyway (they can plane shift at will) and you would burn through a lot of SMVII scrolls besides.

[AmberVael]

Even if the Summon Monster thing would work, it's terrible inefficient- 2,000 gold per scroll, and Noble Genies are only 1% of the population. You're going to be spending a lot of money.


Alternately, you could spend 8,400 on a candle of invocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation) for a one use gate. Pick up a lawful evil one, summon an Efreeti (who always have wish), and have it use its three wishes for you (which won't take long or significant resources, so it gets no compensation).

It's worth noting that this has no impact or alignment requirement, really- only the other aspects of the Candle of Invocation require you to match alignments with the candle. The Gate part only needs the summoned creature to be aligned with the candle. And while Efreeti are evil, they aren't [Evil], so it doesn't affect the alignment of the Gate spell.


In short, Candle of Invocation shouldn't have that gate function.

[Slipperychicken]

I've seen a build for a level 4 character to use the Sacrifice rules from BoVD to gain a wish. It's an evil act, but I don't think it will necessarily shift your alignment.

[Yogibear41]

I've seen a build for a level 4 character to can use the Sacrifice rules from BoVD to gain a wish. It's an evil act, but I don't think it will necessarily shift your alignment.

You Know maybe if the forces of good had a good alternative to this, people wouldn't have to worry about people doing these types of things for power.

[Slipperychicken]

You Know maybe if the forces of good had a good alternative to this, people wouldn't have to worry about people doing these types of things for power.

The whole point is that people do Evil because it's tempting and offers better worldly rewards than goodness does. Otherwise, there's no real conflict or sacrifice in choosing between virtue and expedience.


Goodness is rewarding because you get into a better afterlife and have a clear conscience. The path of goodness is supposed to be hard and full of trials.

[Saintheart]

This won't work; summoned creatures cannot use any SLA that would cost them XP if they were spells. You have to call (bind or gate) a noble djinn, not summon it.

Forcecage wouldn't trap it anyway (they can plane shift at will) and you would burn through a lot of SMVII scrolls besides.

Creatures you summon can't use teleportation or plane shifting abilities. And there's nothing in the rules that says you have to keep the djinn captured while the wishes are granted, only that the servitude ends when the wishes are done. You could just capture the djinn, compel it to promise you three wishes, and then release it. It then returns to its home plane at the end of the summoning spell, where it then grants your three wishes.

[Yogibear41]

The whole point is that people do Evil because it's tempting and offers better worldly rewards than goodness does. Otherwise, there's no real conflict or sacrifice in choosing between virtue and expedience.


Goodness is rewarding because you get into a better afterlife and have a clear conscience. The path of goodness is supposed to be hard and full of trials.


I remember reading somewhere that in DND hell can actually be a pretty nice place assuming you did a good job of spreading the badness while you were alive and your masters are pleased.

[Sith_Happens]

I remember reading somewhere that in DND hell can actually be a pretty nice place assuming you did a good job of spreading the badness while you were alive and your masters are pleased.

Pretty much no matter what, your soul is going to be horribly tortured, put through a strainer, and turned into a devil. If you have an understanding with someone of sufficient influence then you might get to be something besides a Lemure, though, and you just might get to keep your memories of your mortal life.

[Psyren]

Creatures you summon can't use teleportation or plane shifting abilities.

Citation for this? I see where summoned creatures can't summon others, but nothing that stops them from teleporting or plane shifting.



And there's nothing in the rules that says you have to keep the djinn captured while the wishes are granted, only that the servitude ends when the wishes are done.

Again, he can't grant wishes that way. Wish costs XP. You have to bind a djinn/efreet to use its wishes, not summon it. The "trapping" part is actually irrelevant in that scenario.

[Karnith]

Citation for this? I see where summoned creatures can't summon others, but nothing that stops them from teleporting or plane shifting.
Summon Monster spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm) (and Summon Nature's Ally spells, and most Summoning subschool spells, for that matter) contain the following line:

A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.

[Saintheart]

Citation for this? I see where summoned creatures can't summon others, but nothing that stops them from teleporting or plane shifting.

Sure. Out of the SRD on SM I: A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.


Again, he can't grant wishes that way. Wish costs XP. You have to bind a djinn/efreet to use its wishes, not summon it. The "trapping" part is actually irrelevant in that scenario.

Per the SRD again from the monster's entry:

Some djinn (1% of the total population) are noble. A noble djinni can grant three wishes to any being (nongenies only) who captures it. Noble djinn perform no other services and, upon granting the third wish, are free of their servitude.

The relevant SRD entry on summoning is:

A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

So yes, I grant you that while summoned, the creature refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP. But the noble djinn is only a summoned creature so long as the spell lasts. Its servitude to a master who captures it does not end with the spell's duration; only the grant of the third wish does that. Therefore: once the summoning ends, the noble djinni returns to its home plane. It is not a summoned creature any longer, but so long as you've subjected it to capture at some point, the compulsion to grant you three wishes remains, and does not end until it's given you the third wish from its home plane. The monster entry does not by RAW require that the noble djinn is still a prisoner when it grants the three spells.

(In one of the Sinbad movies (Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger, or maybe The Golden Voyage of Sinbad) Sinbad did exactly this: released the genie, but it still came back when he told it to grant his wishes. :D )

You can tell the noble djinn while it's a prisoner: "I will release you, on condition that when you return to your home plane, you grant me wishes X, Y, Z." The djinn must obey until the third wish is granted, and it has no choice but to do so when it returns: per summoning, it must refuse any request to cast Wish while it's the subject of a summoning spell.

EDIT: In addition -- who says that to "grant" wishes means the genie casts the Wish? It could just mean you suddenly get three wishes of yourself. Gods can "grant" spells, but it's the caster who uses them, for example.

[Morgarion]

A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.

According to the D20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm), it's part of Summon Monster spells.

And at the risk of getting off topic, I think Yogibear made a really good point earlier about how good should provide alternatives to evil. Maybe it's a little heavy for D&D, but in my mind, it raises some interesting and necessary questions. And maybe it will prove relevant to D&D. Rant averted.

[Psyren]

According to the D20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm), it's part of Summon Monster spells.

Ah, I was looking at the Summoning subschool, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning) which mentions the inability to summon but doesn't mention the planar travel or porting bits. Learn something new every day.

But my other point still stands, you have to call a djinn for it to grant wishes.



And at the risk of getting off topic, I think Yogibear made a really good point earlier about how good should provide alternatives to evil.

No, it shouldn't. The reward for good should be the satisfaction of doing good itself; making such overt power a consequence of do-gooding would only attract the neutral and mercenary who don't care about goodness in a moral sense.

[Segev]

Eh, no. "The reward of doing good should be warm fuzzies" is not really useful. Especially since, if that truly is the sole reward, then doing good is more akin to a drug than a constructive thing. Doing drugs makes you feel good inside, too, but is ultimately destructive to your life. Doing good, according to evil people, is destructive to your life because it weakens you and renders you vulnerable and squanders your potential. So if all the reward is wrapped up in feeling good and "getting into a good afterlife," it's actually unhealthy!

Fortunately, that is an erroneous way to look at it. The strength of good is similar to the strength of law: it enables you to work together with others to magnify your strengths and be greater than the sum of your parts. Good doesn't need to watch its back as much as does evil; the good do not betray each other for selfish reasons, and generally try to work out unselfish-cause problems without hurting fellow good-guys before they resort to violence. This results in being better able to allocate those resources that villains must use on such constant vigil and defense. Good gives of itself for "the greater good," and then turns around and helps out of charity; the good are rarely without support in their time of need, and don't even need to maintain a "tab" to measure whether they've given or taken more as long as they're honest and steadfast in their own charity when they can be.

Good and Law are more powerful in aggregate than are Chaos and Evil. Oddly, the raw power of individual entities in D&D that represent these alignments have the Good and Lawful exceed the power of the Chaotic and Evil that are "on the same tier." I've always felt this was backwards, since D&D tries to claim there's a balance of power across the planes: because Good and Lawful entities will work together to magnify their power, while Chaotic and Evil entities will work to cross-purposes and even tear each other down, it would stand to reason that individual Chaotic and Evil entities would need to be relatively stronger than their Lawful and Good counterparts. That's now how things are, though.


The allure of evil (and chaos) and its easy access to power is just a magnification of the allure of evil deeds in "real life" (or at least in mundane life): The quick path to wealth is to steal it or to take as much as you can get your hands on and not give of it to anybody without a quid pro quo that works out in your favor. (There's nothing wrong with the latter, mind, but a certain amount of charity goes a long way towards helping ease those times when you ARE in need.) The quick path to power involves taking it from others and crushing opposition by any means necessary.

Evil and Chaos are left-hand paths. They lead to instability and an inability to trust, for fear that others will act as you do, but they can get quick gains and, where evil and chaos prevail or where the good and lawful are blind, the most ruthless and cunning will generally, in fact, win. But they fail overall against the organization of Law and the cooperation of Good. Good is not necessarily stupid; it will fight evil and destroy it where it spurns or abuses mercy.

Good and Law are harder paths; no short cuts, no unearned rewards. But the rewards, once given, are more stable, and come with the implicit support of those who are of like mind, because they will not only not try to take it from you, but will help you defend it once you have it.


But that's why Evil and Chaos have "temptation" themes. They offer you quick, easy, or unearned power or wealth or reward, but they require you to immerse yourself in a culture that you cannot trust beyond the strength of your arm or your perceived benefit to your benefactor.

Good doesn't do this; Good and Law grant boons in accordance with need and with justice. And then they watch how you use those gifts; Law, in particular, usually only grants something with a specific use allowed, and woe betide those who abuse that power.

[Psyren]

Eh, no. "The reward of doing good should be warm fuzzies" is not really useful. Especially since, if that truly is the sole reward, then doing good is more akin to a drug than a constructive thing.

That's obviously not the only consequence, so this entire line of discussion is silly. If you save the peasant village and refuse compensation for instance, they money they would have scraped together to reward you can instead go into feeding and clothing their children, some of whom may become heroes themselves.

Rather, the idea is that you shouldn't care about the compensation when doing the right thing. You do it because it's the right thing to do. It's not about endorphins or feeling proud of yourself or any such nonsense.



Good doesn't need to watch its back as much as does evil; the good do not betray each other for selfish reasons, and generally try to work out unselfish-cause problems without hurting fellow good-guys before they resort to violence. This results in being better able to allocate those resources that villains must use on such constant vigil and defense.

The problem with this line of thought is that not being vigilant can be just as harmful as spending resources on constant vigilance. Evil can be insidious - envy, temptation, possession etc. - and not watching your back at the wrong moment can be disastrous.

In general, yes, good can benefit from force multipliers like cooperation and resource allocation/distribution more readily than evil can; but evil generally has the advantages of surprise and depravity on their side - striking first, and doing things the other side won't do like salting/scorching the earth.



Good and Law are more powerful in aggregate than are Chaos and Evil.

I'm not sure I'd agree with this in any D&D setting. Indeed, the whole premise behind the Blood War is that Chaotic Evil is so powerful that it takes all the Goods + LE to simply keep them from winning instantly.

[Segev]

Most of your reply I feel is a valid enough point of view to let stand and allow others to make their own minds up on; debating it would be too lengthy a derail, I think. However...

I'm not sure I'd agree with this in any D&D setting. Indeed, the whole premise behind the Blood War is that Chaotic Evil is so powerful that it takes all the Goods + LE to simply keep them from winning instantly.

I think you're factually wrong about canon, here: the blood war is between LE and CE; Good as a whole mostly just sits at the top of the Outer Planes and watches them warily, hoping the Evils keep themselves too occupied to cause bigger problems outside the Lower Planes. They aren't allied with LE against CE.

That said, the premise that CE wins through numbers is part of canon. I think it's silly, myself, since CE also would tear itself apart with numbers, but that's what canon says.

In practice, then, the balance that keeps L and C even is that LE is more powerful, individually, than CE. (The same is true, individually, of LG vs. CG, and of individual G in general vs. individual E in general.)

[Psyren]

I think you're factually wrong about canon, here: the blood war is between LE and CE; Good as a whole mostly just sits at the top of the Outer Planes and watches them warily, hoping the Evils keep themselves too occupied to cause bigger problems outside the Lower Planes. They aren't allied with LE against CE.

That said, the premise that CE wins through numbers is part of canon. I think it's silly, myself, since CE also would tear itself apart with numbers, but that's what canon says.

I didn't say they were allies. It's more of a subcontractor situation. But you caught the major part of my point, which was that good needs LE's help to keep CE in check. And while it's true that CE would tear itself apart, I think it's safe to say they'd save that until everything else was in ruin, making the point moot.

[Segev]

I didn't say they were allies. It's more of a subcontractor situation. But you caught the major part of my point, which was that good needs LE's help to keep CE in check. And while it's true that CE would tear itself apart, I think it's safe to say they'd save that until everything else was in ruin, making the point moot.

The bolded part, I don't actually agree with. At least, not any more than I would agree that Good needs CE's help to keep LE in check. My point is that Good either stays aloof, plays "police" in the middle planes, or plays both ends against the middle in the Blood War; they don't "more often" work with one side to control the other. LE doesn't play any better with CG than does LG with CE. And NG would generally prefer not to deal with any E at all, except to contain, convert, or destroy it.

[Rebel7284]

Cloistered Cleric 3/Shadowcraft Mage 3 with early entry tricks can do miracle manually assuming early entry. Not quite wish, but close.

1. Spell Focus Illusion
F. Magical Training
F. Heighten Spell
3. Divine Metamagic[Heighten Spell]
6. Arcane Disciple[Luck]
Dark Chaos shuffle two bonus feats from Cloistered Cleric into Earth Sense and Earth Spell.

Going for slightly less cheese, you can enter SCM on time and still get miracle by level 10.

[Segev]

I could have sworn Heighten was expressly excluded from being a valid target for DMM.

[Slipperychicken]

But that's why Evil and Chaos have "temptation" themes.

The reason Goodness doesn't is because, although you can tempt people do good things, that doesn't make them good people. Goodness won't get as many souls by offering worldly boons.


If you bribe or intimidate someone into murdering babies, then that person is giving in to his fears or greed to pursue wickedness. It works to turn people to Evil because it breaks down their moral integrity; ever more repulsive actions become acceptable in the pursuit of gain. Doing Evil things because they're expedient leads toward Evil. This makes temptation a strong tool for Evil; it draws mortals' souls toward them.

However, if someone saves an orphanage because he was paid, scared, or tricked into doing it, then that person isn't doing it out of the kindness of his heart. Then the person is most likely Neutral; He's doing it because it's practical, not because it's the right thing to do. To be Good, you need to do good deeds for the right reasons. Doing Good things because they're expedient does not lead you toward Goodness. This is why it is largely useless for the forces of Good to "tempt" mortals; it simply doesn't get them souls.

[Psyren]

The bolded part, I don't actually agree with. At least, not any more than I would agree that Good needs CE's help to keep LE in check.

Those are different scenarios. LE is contractually obligated to fight CE; being lawful, they have to comply, even if they did trick the good deities into letting them siphon off mortal souls and commit unspeakable tortures in furtherance of the war effort. So the situation of "Good needing CE's help to keep LE in check" was never a possibility to begin with - LE's own lawful nature is what keeps them largely in check. Reread the opening of Fiendish Codex 2 that discusses Asmodeus' origins.

And you're incorrect, Good does not "stay aloof." They lead raids/strikes on the Abyss all the time - Celestia moreso than the other two, but they all do it. Orcus not only has functionally infinite demons at his command, he also has hosts upon hosts of undead, being the most powerful necromancer in the multiverse.

[Rebel7284]

I could have sworn Heighten was expressly excluded from being a valid target for DMM.

http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-divine--56/divine-metamagic--660/

Says nothing special about heighten.

I like how magical training also makes it easy to qualify for Dweomerkeeper. Spontaneous Supernatural Miracle? :D

[forsaken1111]

You can tell the noble djinn while it's a prisoner: "I will release you, on condition that when you return to your home plane, you grant me wishes X, Y, Z." The djinn must obey until the third wish is granted, and it has no choice but to do so when it returns: per summoning, it must refuse any request to cast Wish while it's the subject of a summoning spell.

To be fair, I don't think putting a (temporary) summoned monster in a (temporary) force cage counts as capturing it. It knows full well that when the duration of the spell ends, it will be going back. You'd need to convince it that it is truly captured.

[Than]

After all these options what does it cost to just buy a scroll of wish?

I'm sure it's cheaper if the scroll doesn't allow any of the XP cost options.

[forsaken1111]

Isn't it like 20k or so to just hire a wizard to cast the spell?

[Segev]

After all these options what does it cost to just buy a scroll of wish?

I'm sure it's cheaper if the scroll doesn't allow any of the XP cost options.

1) A scroll of a 9th level spell will be difficult to activate if you can't already cast 9th level spells (and increasingly so the earlier you try).

2) Wish has no "no exp cost" options. You're thinking of Miracle.

[AmberVael]

After all these options what does it cost to just buy a scroll of wish?

I'm sure it's cheaper if the scroll doesn't allow any of the XP cost options.


Isn't it like 20k or so to just hire a wizard to cast the spell?

Neither of these options are cheaper or easier than the Candle of Invocation I previously mentioned. :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

Isn't it like 20k or so to just hire a wizard to cast the spell?

It's far from guaranteed that you can get one, though. It takes a lot of GM-cooperation.



In addition, not every town or village has a spellcaster of sufficient level to cast any spell. In general, you must travel to a small town (or larger settlement) to be reasonably assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level spells, a large town for 2nd-level spells, a small city for 3rd- or 4th-level spells, a large city for 5th- or 6th-level spells, and a metropolis for 7th- or 8th-level spells. Even a metropolis isn’t guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able to cast 9th-level spells.


See spell description for additional costs. If the additional costs put the spell’s total cost above 3,000 gp, that spell is not generally available.

[Yogibear41]

The chances of finding a high level wizard in the campaign I am in is very very low, convincing him that he actually needs your 20k gold to cast the spell in question, that an entirely different ball park all together.

[Segev]

The chances of finding a high level wizard in the campaign I am in is very very low, convincing him that he actually needs your 20k gold to cast the spell in question, that an entirely different ball park all together.

Oh, I don't know... provided that the DM didn't allow spellcasters to just walk down to the local city and unload all their spells for the listed service-costs in the PHB, I know that I, playing a wizard, would often be willing to cast a wish for somebody for something around 20,000 gp. Depending on what my needs actually were and how desperately they seemed to need it, I might negotiate up or even down. But converting exp to gp is not usually trivial. Done judiciously, this could greatly increase the effective wealth of a PC wizard at even 17th-20th level, and NPC wizards presumably are as starved for cash as PCs.

[Yogibear41]

Seeing as a wish can create a non-magical item worth up to 25,000 gp I doubt any wizard would ever willingly give up experience points to cast the wish just to short himself 5,000 gp.


On a side note this is a very 1st edition oriented game in many aspects, and just because a wizard can cast wish doesn't necessarily mean he knows how.

Not to mention it is slightly low magic. Its actually more akin to the magic is there but your going to actually have to look for it in the right places and not all these little spit towns that our characters for whatever reason happen to love staying around.

[Psyren]

Well if that's the case why are you trying to get a Wish so early then? It doesn't sound like something your DM would want you to be doing.

[Segev]

Well, technically, the exp cost would be 25000 gp in value, so that's what'd be added; not 20k. My mistake for not thinking the math through.

The "profit" over just casting Wish himself and Wishing for 25,000 gp would be the value for casting a 9th level spell-for-hire. So...yeah.