The Hurrah Nale is Dead Thread

[Zerter]

I know this comic is not about D&D to that level any more, but Nale represented something to me the way Miko represented something to The Giant. The annoying, bullying player at your table that has no clue what he is doing but is kept alive because the DM does not want to hurt his feelings by letting his character die. For years Nale has been running around, hurting people, not succeeding at anything, and yet he has been free, making out with a succubus and seemingly with a lot of resources as well. Finally he got what is coming to him, hopefully he won't reunite with his allies in the afterlife unless it is for them to hurt him somehow.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'll never understand this board's extreme hate for Nale, yet extreme love for his father who is a million times more obnoxious than him.

[Quartz]

His resurrection has been foreshadowed. Remember when they decided to not kill him because he'd just be resurrected?

Of course, he has just pissed off a god by killing one of his clerics, so he might be sent back as an undead.

[TheBST]

Somehow, I can't bring myself to cheer at a man murdering his child.


I'll never understand this board's extreme hate for Nale, yet extreme love for his father who is a million times more obnoxious than him.

Indeed. On the bright side, this might be the final straw for Elan./The Order

[Draconi Redfir]

His resurrection has been foreshadowed. Remember when they decided to not kill him because he'd just be resurrected?

Of course, he has just pissed off a god by killing one of his clerics, so he might be sent back as an undead.

I wonder if it's a coincidence that the giant released the Halio and Juelan PDF not too long ago...

[Wayson]

Nale's plans always had two things in common: they were hilariously overcomplicated and they always failed. He was often petty, frequently unprofessional, and always cowardly. Contrast with Tarquin, who is the epitome of the Lawful Evil villain. Suave, experienced, absolutely goal-focused, and willing to work with anyone necessary in order to accomplish his objectives.

If I have to choose between Nale and Tarquin for the villain, it's hands-down Tarquin. He's an infinitely more challenging opponent with a lot more complexity to him.

[BlackDragonKing]

Tarquin will get what's coming to him one day, likely at the hands of the right son for the job. Until then, though, I look forward to seeing how Tarquin and his party handle relative to the Order of the Stick.

But Nale, who has always been my least favorite character in the strip besides Miko, finally got what was coming to him today, and that, I think, is a fine thing indeed. :smallsmile:

Karma-riffic!

[ratfox]

Nale's plans always had two things in common: they were hilariously overcomplicated and they always failed. He was often petty, frequently unprofessional, and always cowardly. Contrast with Tarquin, who is the epitome of the Lawful Evil villain. Suave, experienced, absolutely goal-focused, and willing to work with anyone necessary in order to accomplish his objectives.


Agree. There are villains like Tarquin, that I love to hate. And then there are villains like Nale, which I just hate period. I don't know exactly why, though his self-importance probably accounts for a lot of it.

[Giggling Ghast]

I'll never understand this board's extreme hate for Nale, yet extreme love for his father who is a million times more obnoxious than him.

Well, he did murder dozens of innocent people for a petty revenge scheme.

[HandofShadows]

Nale was a self important, petty, sadistic, mass murdering, coward. That is why people didn't like him. Tarquin for all his evil does not kill for the enjoyment of killing, but as a means to an end. Despite being evil the difference is night and day. Like comparing a seriel killer (Nale) to Julius Ceaser (Tarquin).

[nephilia]

Did u just admit u killed Malack and u're so stupid to spit in the hand your father (who got nothing less than an army of dinosaurs all around u?) is giving to u to help u fix ur own mess?

I wish u really enjoyed ur new fashion piercing's holes belly-back... for the 2 seconds u were alive and wearing it :smallamused:

I'm totally up with the OP here. Nale was the pg that the DM doesn't want to kill to be kind with the player even if it's pushing it into harassment again and again... till the moment the DM say "now it's over" :smallamused:


PS : let's note that by killing his brother Tarquin just gave Elan the "I can't and yet I must" reason and character development for their climatic last fight :D

[Porthos]

Nale was a self important, petty, sadistic, mass murdering, coward. That is why people didn't like him. Tarquin for all his evil does not kill for the enjoyment of killing, but as a means to an end. Despite being evil the difference is night and day. Like comparing a seriel killer (Nale) to Julius Ceaser (Tarquin).

To be fair, Tarquin has his sadistic, petty side to him as well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: Though seeing that look on his face when the Empress ate him made it all worthwhile.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: My men had to get out to the mountains, recapture them, nail them into position, and then get the oil out there in time to light the rebellious little pricks on fire in unison.

Plus the (implied) rape, torture (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html) and the petty revenge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html). :smallwink:

Make no mistake, there is a monster lurking underneath the surface of Tarquin's face. He's just far better at masking it and directing it than Nale.

[Baron Pineapple]

To be fair, Tarquin has his sadistic, petty side to him as well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: Though seeing that look on his face when the Empress ate him made it all worthwhile.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: My men had to get out to the mountains, recapture them, nail them into position, and then get the oil out there in time to light the rebellious little pricks on fire in unison.

Plus the (implied) rape, torture (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html) and the petty revenge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html). :smallwink:

Make no mistake, there is a monster lurking underneath the surface of Tarquin's face. He's just far better at masking it and directing it than Nale.

When subjects rebel against you and plot insurrection, there is no soft touch. Only punitive measures and immediate demonstrations that you will not tolerate such rebellion will suffice if you wish to maintain your life and power. This is the price of power. If power means enough to you to take and hold, this is what you must be prepared to do. That does not make you sadistic or petty. It makes you a ruler.

[Lvl45DM!]

When subjects rebel against you and plot insurrection, there is no soft touch. Only punitive measures and immediate demonstrations that you will not tolerate such rebellion will suffice if you wish to maintain your life and power. This is the price of power. If power means enough to you to take and hold, this is what you must be prepared to do. That does not make you sadistic or petty. It makes you a ruler.

Enjoying it makes you sadistic and petty though.

[Chantelune]

Nale was kind of a child throwing a tantrum for any reason, reason why I didn't like him much. I'm glad he's dead if that means we won't have any more LG intermission.

What went throught my head when it happened was "finally !"

[Mordokai]

I'll never understand this board's extreme hate for Nale, yet extreme love for his father who is a million times more obnoxious than him.

Nononono! You got this all wrong. Sure, Tarquin is probably just as evil as Nale. Hell, probably a lot more so. Ok, surely a lot more so.

But obnoxious? Hell no. He's one loveable scamp. To use tvtropes, he's very Affably Evil.

I have no love lost for Tarquin. But I do find him killing Nale a sort of great enjoyment. Because if I don't really like Tarquin, I positively loathed(yay for past tense) Nale. Little weasel was incompetent, way over his head, wannabe major villain, who was a coward, a bully and a hypocrite. And while certain of those characteristics also apply to Tarquin, he just never rubbed me the wrong way as Nale. So, am I happy to see Nale dead? Hells yeah! Especially since he died such an ignoble death. Does that mean I am now suddenly Tarquin fanboy? No. I just adore him for putting Nale down. And I would adore anybody who'd done that.

[Szarrukin]

Julius Ceaser (Tarquin).
More like Stalin, in my opinion. Or Tiberius, if you prefer Roman emperors. Caesar was a dictator, right, but not a psycho.

As for Nale's death - yay! Swift and sure vengeace, that's what I like.

[magic9mushroom]

I'll never understand this board's extreme hate for Nale, yet extreme love for his father who is a million times more obnoxious than him.

Tarquin doesn't go out of his way to be cruel, he's merely ruthless. He's also competent enough to be admired, a worthy adversary.

Nale, by contrast, is irrational, petty, stupid, AND cruel. He's not the sort of person you love to hate, he's the sort of person you just want to be rid of, like a turd stuck to your shoe. He's a sadistic, prideful bully who doesn't even have the brains or brawn to justify that pride. Guess what sort of person 90% of geeks have seen the worst side of when they were growing up, and secretly or non-secretly wanted to stab to death?

[Porthos]

When subjects rebel against you and plot insurrection, there is no soft touch. Only punitive measures and immediate demonstrations that you will not tolerate such rebellion will suffice if you wish to maintain your life and power. This is the price of power. If power means enough to you to take and hold, this is what you must be prepared to do. That does not make you sadistic or petty. It makes you a ruler.
Pssst. They were escaping slaves, not rebels. :smallwink:

Well, they were 'rebellious' in as much as for some reason they didn't care for Tarquin's rule.

Can't imagine why.


Enjoying it makes you sadistic and petty though.

This too. :smallwink:

[Lord Vukodlak]

I wonder how long until Elan or his father works in a
"Dead as a door Nale" pun.

[Lord Raziere]

I actually liked Nale. he is honest. Its Tarquin I can't stand.

he is the evil that convinces you that he is necessary when he is not. he is the evil that makes you think he can be negotiated with and that its better to negotiate with him. he is the evil that tries to make you give in. to allow him to do evil. he is the evil that convinces you that he is "reasonable". He is the evil that exploits the greatest human strength and flaw- social influence. the charm is all a mask. all fake. all perfectly calculated to make you like him and to allow him to do whatever he wants to do and evade justice because of it.

and if there is one thing I cannot ever stand… it is masks. Nale I can respect. he was honest about what he wanted and gone forward to get it. Tarquin on the other hand is the most dangerous evil person in the world, the fact that he hides it so well just means that he should not be allowed to do anything no matter how "reasonable" it seems. play his game and you lose.

you heard him say it: he was trying to make Elan give in to his authority. and giving in to his authority is how he wins. he is exactly the reason why chaotic good needs to exist.

Nale is nothing compared to the hate I harbor for this mask-wearing puppet master of cold logic, determined to control everything he can. nothing at all.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I actually liked Nale. he is honest. Its Tarquin I can't stand.

he is the evil that convinces you that he is necessary when he is not. he is the evil that makes you think he can be negotiated with and that its better to negotiate with him. he is the evil that tries to make you give in. to allow him to do evil. he is the evil that convinces you that he is "reasonable". He is the evil that exploits the greatest human strength and flaw- social influence. the charm is all a mask. all fake. all perfectly calculated to make you like him and to allow him to do whatever he wants to do and evade justice because of it.

and if there is one thing I cannot ever stand… it is masks. Nale I can respect. he was honest about what he wanted and gone forward to get it. Tarquin on the other hand is the most dangerous evil person in the world, the fact that he hides it so well just means that he should not be allowed to do anything no matter how "reasonable" it seems. play his game and you lose.

you heard him say it: he was trying to make Elan give in to his authority. and giving in to his authority is how he wins. he is exactly the reason why chaotic good needs to exist.

Nale is nothing compared to the hate I harbor for this mask-wearing puppet master of cold logic, determined to control everything he can. nothing at all.

I completely agree with every point you made about Tarquin but I love him for the very same reasons you hate him.

[Synesthesy]

I don't think that Nale's story arc is over. I think that coldblood killing of a son can upset a little the other son, or something like that.

However, Tarquin is the biggest NPC ever.

[DiamondHooHaMan]

I actually liked Nale. he is honest. Its Tarquin I can't stand.

he is the evil that convinces you that he is necessary when he is not. he is the evil that makes you think he can be negotiated with and that its better to negotiate with him. he is the evil that tries to make you give in. to allow him to do evil. he is the evil that convinces you that he is "reasonable". He is the evil that exploits the greatest human strength and flaw- social influence. the charm is all a mask. all fake. all perfectly calculated to make you like him and to allow him to do whatever he wants to do and evade justice because of it.

and if there is one thing I cannot ever stand… it is masks. Nale I can respect. he was honest about what he wanted and gone forward to get it. Tarquin on the other hand is the most dangerous evil person in the world, the fact that he hides it so well just means that he should not be allowed to do anything no matter how "reasonable" it seems. play his game and you lose.

you heard him say it: he was trying to make Elan give in to his authority. and giving in to his authority is how he wins. he is exactly the reason why chaotic good needs to exist.

Nale is nothing compared to the hate I harbor for this mask-wearing puppet master of cold logic, determined to control everything he can. nothing at all.

That's it down to a T for me. he's that special kind of evil that thinks no amount of death or suffering matters as long as it benefits him. honestly i can see Nale being a better ruler, still really evil. but hell at least he understands the concept of "too far". yes the Celine Deon CD was a joke. but the point stands. we've seen Tarquin torture people into marrying him, and we've seen Nale turn down methods of torture to someone who means nothing to him.

Nale is a better person then Tarquin Q.E.D.

[Blue1005]

WOOOOOT WOOOOOT Nale is DEAD, I hope Tarquin has an even more painful and humiliating death.

[Morty]

Tarquin is a monster who deserves death a dozen times more than Nale did. It doesn't mean I can't be satisfied after he delivered Nale what he'd had coming for a long time. I would feel the same if it had been Xykon or Redcloak to kill him, both of whom are much worse than Tarquin. I will be cheering when Tarquin bites it - but for now, I can cheer that someone has finally decided to stop allowing Nale to continue breathing.

[Mike Havran]

The 'verse is a safer place.

[EnragedFilia]

Like the man said (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J6-3l3hCm0&t=2)

[Lord Vukodlak]

That's it down to a T for me. he's that special kind of evil that thinks no amount of death or suffering matters as long as it benefits him. honestly i can see Nale being a better ruler, still really evil. but hell at least he understands the concept of "too far". yes the Celine Deon CD was a joke. but the point stands. we've seen Tarquin torture people into marrying him, and we've seen Nale turn down methods of torture to someone who means nothing to him.

Nale is a better person then Tarquin Q.E.D. Nale orchestrated the massacre of 417 innocent people so on a map of pushpins they'd make arrows pointing to his hideout. He also started his whole vendetta to kill Elan because.

:nale: "I gave you a chance to join me but you'd rather stay with these fools? Well, I can't very well allow you to continue breathing after an insult like that now can I? Because no one denies me Elan. Not father not you no one."

Nale can only be considered a better person then his father because, Nale's ego and incompetence keeps him from being anything beyond a arch nemesis threat.

[Mauve Shirt]

Nale is one of the characters who has annoyed me for a long time, but I don't believe he deserved this.
It was inevitable though.

[skaddix]

Not how I thought he would go down but dang finally the Linear Guild is finished and we can cross another player off the board. Wonder how sabine will take this

[DiamondHooHaMan]

Nale orchestrated the massacre of 417 innocent people so on a map of pushpins they'd make arrows pointing to his hideout. He also started his whole vendetta to kill Elan because.

:nale: "I gave you a chance to join me but you'd rather stay with these fools? Well, I can't very well allow you to continue breathing after an insult like that now can I? Because no one denies me Elan. Not father not you no one."

Nale can only be considered a better person then his father because, Nale's ego and incompetence keeps him from being anything beyond a arch nemesis threat.

it's fascinating really. Nale kills people to make arrows on a map. Tarquin kills people to make the word ELAN on a hill. no matter what either of them think, they do think a like.

[Roland Itiative]

His resurrection has been foreshadowed. Remember when they decided to not kill him because he'd just be resurrected?
Back then he had many living allies. Now he just has one, and she happens to be banished for the time being, and works for guys who might not see fit to have him resurrected. I think there's a 50% chance of him coming back, at most.

[U2QueenBee]

I'll never understand this board's extreme hate for Nale, yet extreme love for his father who is a million times more obnoxious than him.

Honestly, I don't like either of them. They're villains...I don't think we're supposed to. I suppose the difference is that Tarquin comes off as significantly more clever and more powerful than Nale, so that you do feel a sense of something between awe and intimidation, I suppose, whereas Nale's brand of evil feels (perhaps wrongly) more like a mosquito biting you.

That said, I was more shocked than cheering at Nale's death, though I can't say I'm sad to see him gone.

[Goosefeather]

Just gutted, literally. But enough about Nale...


:smalltongue:

[Reathin]

Ahh, that was a satisfying moment. I've been waiting for someone to stab Nale for far, far too long. That he was crushed by an infinitely more efficient and entertaining villain (in my eyes at least) was icing on the delicious homicide cake. That it was from Nale RIDICULOUS stupidity in admiring, in front of two adventurers considerably stronger than him, that he butchered their friend while expecting to get away with it was another layer icing on said cake.

[rs2excelsior]

honestly i can see Nale being a better ruler, still really evil. but hell at least he understands the concept of "too far". yes the Celine Deon CD was a joke. but the point stands. we've seen Tarquin torture people into marrying him, and we've seen Nale turn down methods of torture to someone who means nothing to him.

Nale is a better person then Tarquin Q.E.D.

I don't think Nale is a better person than Tarquin. I don't think Tarquin is a better person than Nale. They're both evil. But the better ruler? Nale would have been deposed in a week, tops. While Tarquin's leadership skills could be debated, Nale has consistently and repeatedly proven his incompetence. With six people, Tarquin has conquered a third of the continent and kept three empires running. With six people, Nale can have the crap beaten out of him, even when he has an advantage in terms of surprise.

[Ben Kenobi]

Fantastic outcome. Nothing makes me happier than to see Nale killed.

[Vinsfeld]

I liked Nale. I didn't want him to go like this. He deserved a better death.

[nephilia]

Nale orchestrated the massacre of 417 innocent people so on a map of pushpins they'd make arrows pointing to his hideout. He also started his whole vendetta to kill Elan because.

Can someone point me out what strip is this? I totally can't remember :smalleek:

[rs2excelsior]

Can someone point me out what strip is this? I totally can't remember :smalleek:

It doesn't have the "417 murders," but the arrows are here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0347.html).

EDIT: Thog is arrested on charges of 417 counts of murder. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html)

[jonathan_sicari]

I was not surprised as I read the scene unfolding and I was really happy to see it. :)

[Psyren]

I'm glad Nale is down, but that doesn't make me like Tarquin any more.

So many people are forgetting that Nale was only the bastard he was because of growing up with that very same man. (Humanoid) children aren't born evil.

[Amarsir]

It doesn't help Nale's sympathy that he grossly outstayed his welcome.

One of my major pet peeves is when Good is made to look Stupid for the sake of story constraints. The classsic example of this from TV is a show where the hero is a famous badass / expert marksman who fires thousands of bullets but never hits anyone. (Because the network doesn't want that kind of show.). The A-Team was infamous for this, and more recently Burn Notice danced across that line a few times. (Although this final season is better.)

So with regard to OotS, Nale and Bozzok are in-my-face examples of this. The Linear Guild should have stayed resolved after Azure City, where the heroes decided they needed something "more reliable than death". Which of course it wasn't. And "reset the enemy because unnamed unseen offscreen enemies are assumed to be worse" is the worst possible resolution to Greysky. (The latter is more forgivable because it's shorter, because we can blame Celia and because Haley gave it her own twist.)

But Nale should have been out of the story a while ago. His continued presence made the Order's victories against him seem hollow, and since they're the protagonists and he's NOT the Big Bad, it ultimately turned into more of a story distraction than a component. Now that he's dead, its easier to respect his place in the story and at last I can like him better.

[Mike Havran]

So many people are forgetting that Nale was only the bastard he was because of growing up with that very same man. (Humanoid) children aren't born evil.
Nale bashed Elan to his soft undeveloped skull even before their parents split up.

[JSSheridan]

This is the shoo out the clowns moment for the comic.

Yeah, the LG was Evil, but they were a joke next to Tarquin and Xykon.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Back then he had many living allies. Now he just has one, and she happens to be banished for the time being, and works for guys who might not see fit to have him resurrected. I think there's a 50% chance of him coming back, at most.

Sabine is stil alive and out of the Linear Guild she has the most reasons to revive Nale and (through the IFC) she probably has the resourse to do it, also remember she said way back before that according to her "superiors" Nale had evil potential so it is possible for Nale to return ina fiendish form, possible, but unlikely.

[littlebum2002]

I agree. Nale was a second-rate villain. I've been waiting for this strip since he first appeared. (Of course, I lost my bet in the Demon Roach thread that it wouldn't happen, but that's a bet I don't mind losing).

Of course, he was purposely written as a second-rate villain, so that's no attack on Rich's story-writing abilities.

[Psyren]

Nale bashed Elan to his soft undeveloped skull even before their parents split up.

And do you recall what his mother did when she noticed that? She was parenting. Clearly a subject on which Tarquin has different ideas.

[goodyarn]

There have only been two times where I've been able to muster some sympathy for Nale. One of them was when he and Sabine talked out "Why Nale killing Haley without Sabine being present is a betrayal." And I saw how even psychopaths can be sweet together. Sick, yes. But still sweet. (Roy: You people are sick! Sabine: Ah, but our relationship is healthy.)

The other time was this strip, #913, where Nale died. In the end Nale wanted what every child wants -- for his parent to respect him as his own person, not an extension of the parent and forever doing as the parent bids. That is something Tarquin won't give to either of his sons, apparently.

[Forealms]

And do you recall what his mother did when she noticed that? She was parenting. Clearly a subject on which Tarquin has different ideas.

Yes, but the point was that, to some degree, Nale was violent and/or aggressive before there was a significant opportunity to influence him, with the implication that Elan was not.

Also, let's not pretend Nale is faultless. This is the first time we've seen Nale actually receive consequences that are proportional to the level of responsibility that he has had. Normally he undertakes grand schemes in which he plots the deaths of great numbers of people, then he gets beaten up, arrested, then thrown in a cell for a few days before escaping.

He's had the chance to change his ways. It was his choice not to change. He could have said nuts to his father after they separated and gone off to be a grumpy but nonviolent adventurer or something. Instead, he decided that what he wanted most was power, and that there was nothing he wouldn't do to gain power. He wanted to dominate others (and not the Sabine-way), and he let that goal drive his actions.

And now he's dead, because he fell short while failing to realize that he wasn't the best player in the room.

[Green Dragonfly]

Nale orchestrated the massacre of 417 innocent people so on a map of pushpins they'd make arrows pointing to his hideout. He also started his whole vendetta to kill Elan because.

:nale: "I gave you a chance to join me but you'd rather stay with these fools? Well, I can't very well allow you to continue breathing after an insult like that now can I? Because no one denies me Elan. Not father not you no one."

Nale can only be considered a better person then his father because, Nale's ego and incompetence keeps him from being anything beyond a arch nemesis threat.


it's fascinating really. Nale kills people to make arrows on a map. Tarquin kills people to make the word ELAN on a hill. no matter what either of them think, they do think a like.

Also, no one denies Tarquin, either. That's the actual reason he killed Nale after all. They really do think alike.

[Chantelune]

Sabine is stil alive and out of the Linear Guild she has the most reasons to revive Nale and (through the IFC) she probably has the resourse to do it, also remember she said way back before that according to her "superiors" Nale had evil potential so it is possible for Nale to return ina fiendish form, possible, but unlikely.

When was that ? Back in the first dungeon, if I'm not mistaken ?

Ever since, I think Nale proved that he might have potential, but that it was wasted on him thanks to his immaturity. Plus, the IFCC hinted that they were interested in Nale and his LG as troublemakers, pawns to stirr things up. Not decisive pieces in the game.

And now that we're reaching the last part of the game, I think the IFCC might decide that Nale and what remains of the LG (which is Sabine and, eventually, Thog) are not worth the trouble anymore.

Sabine might still want to raise nale, or make him some fiend, if her loyalty really is with Nale, but the IFCC helping or even being fine with it might be another matter.

Guess we'll see in the next few comics. Unless the Giant decide to let the matter unanswered, of course. :p

[Valanarch]

I've been waiting for this for a while now. I was getting sick of seeing my favorite Linear Guild members (Z, Thog, and Yokyok) get killed while Nale and Sabine escaped untouched. Elan should have just let Nale fall to his death back in 69 (Elan is fine with killing random goblins who work for Xykon who re in their way, why didn't he feel the same way about his long lost brother who worked for Xykon who nearly killed him?). And they should have just killed Nale in 399 and disintegrated his body (Did they really think that there are that many clerics who could cast true resurrection who would care about Nale?). All I have to say is that it was about time.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I've been waiting for this for a while now. I was getting sick of seeing my favorite Linear Guild members (Z, Thog, and Yokyok) get killed while Nale and Sabine escaped untouched. Elan should have just let Nale fall to his death back in 69 (Elan is fine with killing random goblins who work for Xykon who re in their way, why didn't he feel the same way about his long lost brother who worked for Xykon who nearly killed him?). And they should have just killed Nale in 399 and disintegrated his body (Did they really think that there are that many clerics who could cast true resurrection who would care about Nale?). All I have to say is that it was about time.

Resurrection is enough for disintegrate so long as you collect some dust. At one point I recall Roy arguing for keeping Nale in play because if they eliminated him permanently it just make room for a more dangerous recurring villain.

[Valanarch]

Resurrection is enough for disintegrate so long as you collect some dust. At one point I recall Roy arguing for keeping Nale in play because if they eliminated him permanently it just make room for a more dangerous recurring villain.

They are right next to an ocean, they could go and dump his ashes in the sea.

[Talya]

Disclaimer: The poster shall not be held responsible for productivity or time lost clicking on any links in this post. Click on such links at your own peril.

Tarquin is evil done right. Is Tarquin more evil than Nale? Absolutely. That's not the point. Nale was a whiny, disrespectful, spiteful, small-minded little jerk. Tarquin is evil in a classier, grand sense. Does Tarquin deserve his comeuppance? Well, yes, if you're in the "good must always triumph, evil must be vanquished" paladin mindset. Nothing wrong with that. I don't always subscribe to that line of thinking, but it's fine. But let's not pretend Nale is a better villain. Nale was pathetic. Tarquin is awesome in a genre-savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy) manner. I love how he's considering pretending this was all a Xanatos Gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) in #912.

[jidasfire]

I think what can best be said about this is that this was Nale's time to go. He has faced the Order time and again, and though he continues to come back with greater and greater resources at his back, he kept on failing. He was good for what he was, a second-tier villain who kept the Order on their toes and gave them someone they could, with respectable challenge, defeat, as opposed to Xykon and Redcloak, whom they cannot. And in the end, Elan was never going to kill Nale, so it only makes sense that if he had to go, Tarquin was going to be the one who did it.

I think it's also worth noting that this arc has been about the Order outgrowing the Linear Guild and perhaps even graduating to the big leagues. Up to now, there were a few members of the Order who had not beaten their evil opposites, most notably Roy, who never truly crossed swords with Thog in any serious capacity, and Vaarsuvius, who honestly would have lost to Zz'dtri if not for humor and luck. Elan and Haley had beaten Nale and Sabine in combat during the last encounter, Belkar always kills his kobolds, and Durkon used some real cleverness against Leeky (the Hilgya matter remains unresolved, but that was more about seeing who Durkon was anyway). But now, Roy has proven his brain is bigger than Thog's brawn, and V showed a genuine ability to adapt instead of hammering away with offensive magic against someone whose defenses were unassailable. Given that Rich cares more about character growth than power as a factor in victory, the Order have appropriately developed enough to be beyond Nale and his gangs. Hence, Nale, as head of the Linear Guild, had to go.

[This be Richard]

I didn't have strong feelings about Nale until he killed Malack. He was mildly annoying, but he didn't particularly bother me. But while I understand the decision to have him commit the act -- Nale had been a butt monkey for a while, and it re-established some of his credibility as a threat at no cost to the main story -- when Nale killed Malack, I dropped immediately from finding him a slight annoyance to outright hating him.

I was hoping that Tarquin would punish Nale in some way. This wasn't necessarily the way I'd have suggested, but it worked, sating my desire to see Nale face an actual punishment for his actions and further raising the esteem in which I hold his father.

[Mastikator]

This is the thing about evil villains, if you put them in a room to work out their problems they end up working out your problems. :smallbiggrin:

[Captain Morgan]

Disclaimer: The poster shall not be held responsible for productivity or time lost clicking on any links in this post. Click on such links at your own peril.

Tarquin is evil done right. Is Tarquin more evil than Nale? Absolutely. That's not the point. Nale was a whiny, disrespectful, spiteful, small-minded little jerk. Tarquin is evil in a classier, grand sense. Does Tarquin deserve his comeuppance? Well, yes, if you're in the "good must always triumph, evil must be vanquished" paladin mindset. Nothing wrong with that. I don't always subscribe to that line of thinking, but it's fine. But let's not pretend Nale is a better villain. Nale was pathetic. Tarquin is awesome in a genre-savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy) manner. I love how he's considering pretending this was all a Xanatos Gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) in #912.

This. Reading over this thread, I feel like people are getting bent out of shape over who was morally right or wrong here, when that was never the point. All the parties involved are evil. Tarquin is a more complex, competent, and entertaining form of evil, which is what matters from a story telling perspective. Nale being more or less Evil than Tarquin is irrelevant.

And what I like about Tarquin, and also the late twice over Malaack, was that they only resorted to violence for those they had affection for when they had exhausted every possible option. This doesn't apply to random subjects and prisoners and such, but the idea that these evil characters can have genuine respect for others makes them more interesting than most. It's stuff like this which leads to even non D&D players like myself to read this comic.

[Talya]

I didn't have strong feelings about Nale until he killed Malack. He was mildly annoying, but he didn't particularly bother me. But while I understand the decision to have him commit the act -- Nale had been a butt monkey for a while, and it re-established some of his credibility as a threat at no cost to the main story -- when Nale killed Malack, I dropped immediately from finding him a slight annoyance to outright hating him.

Huh. I actually found Nale's defeat of Malack (I was going to say murder, but you can't murder the undead, they're already dead) to raise him a peg or two in my estimation. It was well planned and well executed. (Huh. Executed. haha.) It was a clear display of competence, which is not something we've seen often from Nale.

[fwiffo]

In the end Nale wanted what every child wants -- for his parent to respect him as his own person, not an extension of the parent and forever doing as the parent bids. That is something Tarquin won't give to either of his sons, apparently.

Tarquin absolutely gave Nale something that he wanted. This was Nale's request - "I don't want your nepotism or your charity or your pity". That is what he got.

Does anyone doubt that Tarquin's statement of "Really, Nale, you would've been dead years ago if it weren't for my protection" is completely accurate take? If Tarquin is guilty of anything, it is of being an overprotective parent. If that is an evil trait, half of my family is evil.


Huh. I actually found Nale's defeat of Malack (I was going to say murder, but you can't murder the undead, they're already dead) to raise him a peg or two in my estimation. It was well planned and well executed. (Huh. Executed. haha.) It was a clear display of competence, which is not something we've seen often from Nale.

"Defeat" is too strong a word. Defeat implies a fight; and there was not one. It was an assassination, and the only reason it succeeded is because of protection that Tarquin gave to Nale in form of keeping Malack from killing him on sight.

[Edric O]

And so, Tarquin admits to having failed as a parent, and finally cleans up his mess. Good.

Next strip: Disintegration. Gust of Wind.

And now that the Linear Guild is finished for good, I wonder if this means Thog has also been dead since Roy dropped a ton of bricks on him. It would provide appropriate closure.

[Psyren]

Yes, but the point was that, to some degree, Nale was violent and/or aggressive before there was a significant opportunity to influence him, with the implication that Elan was not.

And? He was a baby. They don't have a concept of right and wrong yet, or of skull development for that matter.



Also, let's not pretend Nale is faultless.

I'm certainly not doing that, so I'll stop you right there.

It's possible to be glad that Nale is out of the picture, while simultaneously (a) feeling sad at the way in which he died, and (b) not viewing Tarquin a single iota more favorably for his part in it.



And now that the Linear Guild is finished for good, I wonder if this means Thog has also been dead since Roy dropped a ton of bricks on him. It would provide appropriate closure.

I was wondering the same thing.

[Captain Morgan]

Tarquin absolutely gave Nale something that he wanted. This was Nale's request - "I don't want your nepotism or your charity or your pity". That is what he got.

Does anyone doubt that Tarquin's statement of "Really, Nale, you would've been dead years ago if it weren't for my protection" is completely accurate take? If Tarquin is guilty of anything, it is of being an overprotective parent. If that is an evil trait, half of my family is evil.



"Defeat" is too strong a word. Defeat implies a fight; and there was not one. It was an assassination, and the only reason it succeeded is because of protection that Tarquin gave to Nale in form of keeping Malack from killing him on sight.

To add to this, he doesn't do anything to force his will upon Elan in any way. But he manipulate his own goals in such a way that they line up with Elan's. I mean, he isn't a bad parent because by getting Elan to do what Elan already does it fulfills his own end game, and it makes him a masterful villain.

[goodyarn]

Does anyone doubt that Tarquin's statement of "Really, Nale, you would've been dead years ago if it weren't for my protection" is completely accurate take?

Sure, because Tarquin chose to raise his son in a scheming, backstabbing hall of mirrors instead of...you know... a home. So, Nale's choices were either (a) become a mastermind like Tarquin and Malack, which he wasn't equipped to do (and most of us aren't), or (b) live on his father's nepotism all his life, or (c) rebel. Nale chose (c) for which I respect him heaps more than if he'd chosen (b).

Imagine poor, bumbling Elan had been raised in the same environment. Which path do you think he'd have gone down?

[AstralFire]

I'll never understand this board's extreme hate for Nale, yet extreme love for his father who is a million times more obnoxious than him.

Tarquin is extremely competent, has style, and is the sort of person who - if you were friends with him - you could actually like. He'll have respectful disagreements with you, make jokes, worry about your well-being. And as of now, we see that he still realistically makes mistakes. More to the point, he is specifically crafted TO be that kind of villain - the kind of villain who is totally likable, just to cause you extra cognitive dissonance when you realize how unrepentantly evil he is.

Nale is extremely incompetent, kept surviving for reasons that felt unnatural or forced, and no one can stand him for 10 minutes if you're not in a relationship with him. Given that the stick figure format doesn't really play up anyone's beauty that well, he's not going to win over anyone on "he's so romantic!" points.

[BlackDragonKing]

Imagine poor, bumbling Elan had been raised in the same environment. Which path do you think he'd have gone down?

I always saw Elan in that environment bumbling along thinking his pop was the good guy but having a fundamentally elanish personality until someone opened his eyes to the empire's true nature.

Plus, you know, that Elan, being the Mad Dictator's Handsome Son© would probably run off with the first hot good-aligned adventurer that came along. :smalltongue:

Nale would probably still be the same sullen, narrow-minded jerk even in a more stable environment.

[Majorman]

Seeing how I am the drunkard (see my signature) I'd drink for Nale's death. I did not dislike or hate him, I'm just happy that the loose ends are tying up. I was kind of expecting Nale's demise, seeing how badly hurt he was in the last few strips.

There's only one gate remainig and the comic nears its end (I think), so it's self-explanatory that the numerous subplots are finding their resolution. Either way, Nale was a goner, the only twist was thet Tarquin saved his CGson the trouble of killing his twin brother and experiencing a long "troubled" period thereafter.

[Forealms]

I'm certainly not doing that, so I'll stop you right there.

It's possible to be glad that Nale is out of the picture, while simultaneously (a) feeling sad at the way in which he died, and (b) not viewing Tarquin a single iota more favorably for his part in it.

You're right. I guess I wasn't really addressing your point, so much as arguing that the fault was at least as much due to Nale's choices as to Tarquin's method of raising him.

[ChaosArchon]

I'll never understand this board's extreme hate for Nale, yet extreme love for his father who is a million times more obnoxious than him.

It is simple: Nale acts like an impudent child who is a constant annoyance to both the Order and the viewer eventually gets annoyed at not only his rash behavior but how incompetent he is. His presence simply detracted from the main villians and heroes. Essentially he was a longer lived Kubuto.

Then theres Tarquin, who is intelligent, calm, meticulous, and is the epitome of a "cool" villian. Just like people liked Darth Vader despite Vader killing even his own troops because they failed him and how he tortured Leia, the audience still loved him. Why? Because, he is a paragon of absolute power, utterly awe inspiring power. Villians like this are what make the Dark Side look cool to the audience. Because they are not bumbling fools, but a legitimate counter to the hero, who can sometimes be so polarized that the audience cannot sympathize with. Of course the villian is polarized too but the hero is also the underdog and as much as people love to root for the underdog, we also love fantasizing about power and wealth.

Long story short: Nale was, is, and always will be... nada :P

[GloatingSwine]

I'll never understand this board's extreme hate for Nale, yet extreme love for his father who is a million times more obnoxious than him.

Tarquin has style, Nale doesn't.

[Roland Itiative]

Does anyone doubt that Tarquin's statement of "Really, Nale, you would've been dead years ago if it weren't for my protection" is completely accurate take? If Tarquin is guilty of anything, it is of being an overprotective parent. If that is an evil trait, half of my family is evil.

Does anyone on your family rule a ruthless, tyranical empire, and do things like killing a bunch of prisoners in a gruesome manner just to try to impress someone? If the answer is "yes", they are evil. If it's "no", comparing them to Tarquin is comparing apples and oranges. Apples and very, very rotten oranges.

[AstralFire]

fwiffo was referring to the trait's morality, not Tarquin's overall alignment.

[fwiffo]

fwiffo was referring to the trait's morality, not Tarquin's overall alignment.

Yeah, sorry, I should've been more clear. I think it is obvious in context that I was talking about their relationship. Would changing that sentence to "If Tarquin is guilty of anything when it comes to treating his son, it is of being an overprotective parent" make it clearer?

It is a natural parenting reaction to try to protect their kids from consequence of their actions for as long as possible, sometimes much too long. And it is natural too to think that they know better than kids do - because for a long time that is true. It is hard to watch your kid fail and get hurt by that failure and stand by and do nothing, even though you know it needs to be done because kid will learns from failure. Many parents can't do it.

Still, from parenting perspective, I'll take Tarquin over Eugene Greenhilt any day of the week, even if Eugene's parenting fails lead to Roy becoming competent adventurer, and Tarquin's parenting fails lead to Nale becoming unhinged psychopath.

[AstralFire]

I think you were perfectly clear. I think we're seeing a lot of people who are a bit tired of Tarquin, and have begun interpreting anything positive about his portrayal's depth as whitewashing the character of his sins. There's been a lot of strawmanning on that end.

[wolfdreams01]

I know this comic is not about D&D to that level any more, but Nale represented something to me the way Miko represented something to The Giant. The annoying, bullying player at your table that has no clue what he is doing but is kept alive because the DM does not want to hurt his feelings by letting his character die. For years Nale has been running around, hurting people, not succeeding at anything, and yet he has been free, making out with a succubus and seemingly with a lot of resources as well. Finally he got what is coming to him, hopefully he won't reunite with his allies in the afterlife unless it is for them to hurt him somehow.

I didn't like Nale because whenever the Linear Guild showed up, it was basically an annoying sidequest that would cause several hundred pages of distraction from the main story. Granted, some important internal stuff happened during this side-quests (Haley & Elan getting together, etc) but it always seemed incidental rather than causal.

Nale was basically the wacky bumbling villain whom you know is going to get foiled: it's just a matter of time. And it's a little annoying to read 200+ pages of comic when the outcome of the plot is already known. Xykon, Redcloak, and Tarquin are SERIOUS villains - they don't f--- around. When protagonists go up against them, the stakes are higher and you have no idea who'll win.

I like serious villains more than bumbling villains - especially when they're funnier. Nale just felt too much like slapstick.

[RedneckTex95]

I actually cheered when Nale got killed. He's the most annoying character to me. He never had a clue on what was goin' on. So thank you Tarquin!

[FlawedParadigm]

Welp, my sig finally came true and man does it feel good. I think it was pretty much inevitable from Tarquin's introduction; he's just as evil or moreso, but better at it in every possible way. Nale's narrative purpose expired. Luckily, unless Elan's idea of a happy ending is to die for Nale's sake, he's prophetically obligated to survive the next strip.

[killallgoblins]

A moment of silence for all the clowns crowing that Nale was now a great, competent villain for killing a better villain

RIP Nale. You died as you lived: whining and being useless

[FlawedParadigm]

Oh, and I suppose this also means not-Nale nailed Nale. Almost with a nail, at that.

[Giggling Ghast]

I will shed a small tear for Elan's mom, who will now never get back her lost nail (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html).

[SadisticFishing]

Nale has very little comedic value, nor is he impressive in any sort of bad ass way. Tarquin is hilarious, and extremely bad ass.

Nale has also been captured and beaten several times, making him feel a bit like a running, unfunny joke.

All in all, I'm very happy about this.

[Porthos]

I didn't like Nale because whenever the Linear Guild showed up, it was basically an annoying sidequest that would cause several hundred pages of distraction from the main story.

A bit of an exaggeration, no?


Granted, some important internal stuff happened during this side-quests (Haley & Elan getting together, etc) but it always seemed incidental rather than causal.

Not quite sure how to respond. Just what is a story but a telling of how you got there? As well as how it affected the characters along the way.

Or to put it another way the 'Haley & Elan getting together, etc' as you put it is as much the main story of The Order of the Stick as anything else is.

[Demolator]

And just as he was starting to show some competence, too... :smallfrown: Truly, this may be for the best. I suppose the LG has finally come to an end. Had they gone on longer, they probably would've begun to get quite boring (and it seems like some think that already). I guess Sabine will have to do purely the IFCC's bidding if she sticks around and doesn't rebel against them or something. Rest in peace, Linear Guild. Well actually they shouldn't, because they're terrible people and should probably get what they deserve (except for Zz'dtri).

[Mr. Pants]

Malack must be celebrating in his grave...

[Mike Havran]

Malack must be celebrating in his grave...
Or in Nergal's domain. Heck, if Nergal is Lawful Evil god, Nale may receive a warm welcome indeed.

[Hawkeye]

I wonder how long until Elan or his father works in a
"Dead as a door Nale" pun.

Oh ye gods that pun is so awful it's gone back around to be awesome. If it's ever used I can see Elan using it to strike a pivotal, game altering blow.

[AstralFire]

A bit of an exaggeration, no?



Not quite sure how to respond. Just what is a story but a telling of how you got there? As well as how it affected the characters along the way.

Or to put it another way the 'Haley & Elan getting together, etc' as you put it is as much the main story of The Order of the Stick as anything else is.

Yes, but sometimes one story feels like it's interfering with the telling of another story you like more. This has literally been the only Linear Guild segment I've enjoyed, and it's entirely due to Tarquin and Malack.

[e1_conquistador]

It's moving the plot forward, folks. We've had literally years of muddling about and sidequests with OOTS, and no real plot development. Well, here it is. All the plot you can handle, and then some! You can't handle the plot!1!

No, really, Nale was an idiot, and OOTS is moving on to the main events. They've really past the whole linear guild baloney, as should be evident by them being, you know, pretty much entirely eliminated.

[busterswd]

I'll never understand this board's extreme hate for Nale, yet extreme love for his father who is a million times more obnoxious than him.

Nale tends to be far pettier, so he comes off as more annoying. Other well hated antagonists suffered from the same flaw.

[WindStruck]

Huzzah!

Three cheers for the conquering general! Let us slay the fatted calf to celebrate his obnoxious son's demise!

[Warren Dew]

But Nale should have been out of the story a while ago. His continued presence made the Order's victories against him seem hollow, and since they're the protagonists and he's NOT the Big Bad, it ultimately turned into more of a story distraction than a component
I think that's why I'm so happy about it. The linear guild plots were always too silly to be very enjoyable to me.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Agree. There are villains like Tarquin, that I love to hate. And then there are villains like Nale, which I just hate period. I don't know exactly why, though his self-importance probably accounts for a lot of it.

X-Pac Heat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XPacHeat)


This is not a heel, a villain whom fans want to see punished; an X-Pac is someone fans don't want to see at all.

[ratfox]

X-Pac Heat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XPacHeat)

It think it is rather The Scrappy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheScrappy).

[Lord Raziere]

It think it is rather The Scrappy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheScrappy).

I think you have Nale confused with Thog there. Nale is nothing compared to the annoying stupidity that is Thog. or was Thog, good thing Thog is dead. hurray! no more Thog! an upside to Nale's death! we won't be seeing the orc ever again.

[Valanarch]

I think you have Nale confused with Thog there. Nale is nothing compared to the annoying stupidity that is Thog. or was Thog, good thing Thog is dead. hurray! no more Thog! an upside to Nale's death! we won't be seeing the orc ever again.

I actually liked Thog. He was one of the funniest characters in the whole comic. I hope that we see him again.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Thog was one of the best characters in the whole comic, and by FAR the most interesting member of the LG.

I hope he's not dead. Even if it's like one of my friends is predicting and he'll just randomly show up on a panel after its all over, because the story forgot about him.

[Angel Bob]

Rest in peace, Linear Guild. Well actually they shouldn't, because they're terrible people and should probably get what they deserve (except for Zz'dtri).

No, Zz'dtri should be damned just as badly as Nale. The drow took pleasure in killing Malack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html), attempting to painfully torture and kill Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html) twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html)*, attempting to murder his own ally (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), and petrifying Celia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html) and Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html) (which, in the D&D cosmos, is even worse than killing, because the effect bars a soul from entering its afterlife). Z is a straight-up sociopathic murderer, and he shouldn't be acquitted of his crimes just because he doesn't gloat about them like Nale.

*Keep in mind that he thought it was the Demiplane of Extremely Painful Torture (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0803.html).

[FlawedParadigm]

Thog was one of the best characters in the whole comic, and by FAR the most interesting member of the LG.

I hope he's not dead. Even if it's like one of my friends is predicting and he'll just randomly show up on a panel after its all over, because the story forgot about him.

Thog was an "interesting member of the LG" - at least in my mind - chiefly because he could exist outside the LG as a better character. Consider, if nothing else and reduced to bare necessity, if the Order ever needed to rely on Thog to do something, he's like a more-easily-controlled Belkar. He is as good or better than Roy in a straight-up fight, and not as clever as Belkar (there's an odd phrase to type) in ways that make him very difficult to control. He is - as I read him, and I may be entirely wrong - evil by circumstance. He is evil because the people that accepted and tolerated him were evil. Contrast his time with Elan where he wasn't cruel or vicious or otherwise evil because the person influencing him at the time wasn't evil. Compare with MitD, if you will.

[BlackDragonKing]

Thog was an "interesting member of the LG" - at least in my mind - chiefly because he could exist outside the LG as a better character. Consider, if nothing else and reduced to bare necessity, if the Order ever needed to rely on Thog to do something, he's like a more-easily-controlled Belkar. He is as good or better than Roy in a straight-up fight, and not as clever as Belkar (there's an odd phrase to type) in ways that make him very difficult to control. He is - as I read him, and I may be entirely wrong - evil by circumstance. He is evil because the people that accepted and tolerated him were evil. Contrast his time with Elan where he wasn't cruel or vicious or otherwise evil because the person influencing him at the time wasn't evil. Compare with MitD, if you will.

That said, I think the giant has gone on record saying he thinks of Thog as having the IQ of a child, but the kind of child who pulls the wings off of flies; he, perhaps more than any other villain in the comic, demonstrates that even Evil has friends, but despite being a follower by nature, Thog is inclined towards violence and has been shown to have a rather mean sense of humor underneath the dim-witted affability that keeps him from being as bad as the others.

[Coopenhagen21]

Tarquin has "big fight" bad guy feel to him. I've been far more interested in his impending clash with the Order than ever have with Nale, because Nale never really evolved. He was always shortsighted and let his ego get in the way of decisions that could have made his plans successful. Even Sabine has evolved more than Nale (her connection to the IFCC).

I felt Nale was never going to change, never going to learn. Should he have done so, I would not be as happy with his demise. BUT, I feel like this is what his character was meant to be: A recurring villain that never changed his habits despite multiple losses that increased in magnitude until finally, the ultimate loss: His life. I will feel very cheated if he manages to weasel out of this one.