Will Nale return? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

BlackDragonKing

2013-08-21, 02:58 AM

I kinda feel like that undercuts the whole point of Nale finally getting himself killed when he's too far over his head. Let's face it, the guy was going to die sooner or later anyway. If it wasn't Tarquin in the desert with the knife, Nale's end would have been an Implosion or a Meteor Swarm or some karmic self-inflicted demise against the Order at the next gate.

Nale can't live through the comic. He's too stubborn to quit and too stupid to win, but he'll bedevil the order forever over his petty grudge if he's in the world of the living; his interest to the IFCC was his propensity for causing destructive, unnecessary conflict.

Honestly, I'd see the IFCC cutting its losses with the Linear guild and forcing Sabine to develop from a satellite character to Nale and either become their bona-fide minion or strike out on her own. The Fiends want Xykon to fail, Tarquin is trying to get involved with ensuring Xykon fails but conflicting with the forces of Good because of how he goes about it, so it's all good from a cosmic perspective.

And again, just killing and reviving a major villain is kinda cheap, don't you think?

ti'esar

2013-08-21, 03:04 AM

I'm not prepared to rule out seeing him in the afterlife in some fashion, but Nale is staying dead.

Weiser_Cain

2013-08-21, 03:05 AM

And again, just killing and reviving a major villain is kinda cheap, don't you think?

Yes, though this is DnD, cheapness abounds.

KingFlameHawk

2013-08-21, 03:06 AM

Yes and No. I can't see him coming back to life, but don't forget that this is a DnD comic and dead is not necessarily the end for a character. I'm not entirely sure how it would work in this universe but since Sabine works under Director Lee and it is likely Nale will go to the lawful evil afterlife it is possible Sabine or Lee will bring him back into the fold as a direct servant of the IFCC as a ghost or something (my knowledge of 3.5 monsters is limited so does anyone know what Nale would be classified if he did that?).

Alan_Pehnereas

2013-08-21, 03:09 AM

Yes, though this is DnD, cheapness abounds.

True, but hasn't The Giant said elsewhere that he doesn't like the whole cheapness of death in D&D?

Weiser_Cain

2013-08-21, 03:16 AM

True, but hasn't The Giant said elsewhere that he doesn't like the whole cheapness of death in D&D?

All I'm saying is brace yourselves.

Copperdragon

2013-08-21, 03:26 AM

Hopefully, Nale is going to stay dead as a doornail.

Baron Pineapple

2013-08-21, 03:47 AM

I doubt we'll see a live and hale Nale (see what I did there?)...

But while I agree that bringing him is cheap, there are FAR WORSE fates that can befall a soul like Nale's that has been brought to the attention of infernal powers.

Foremost is the fact that powers such as the IFCC tend to 'reward' evil souls who have demonstrated potential for evil with 'promotion' to an infernal form, starting with lemures and dretches for the lowest servants, and fast-tracking particularly promising ones to forms such as vrocks and yes... even succubi.

I can't say that I wouldn't laugh if Nale happened to be rewarded in such a way, and I'd probably find it even more amusing if Sabine happens to gain a new sister in the process.

The other thing that can happen is his level of rage and hate can be so powerful, that Nale might be able to cross over and become some form of intelligent undead, such as a revenant, ghost, arcane horror, death knight, vampire, et al.

I'd find it particularly ironic if he became a free-willed vampire and we get to see that whatever Malack did to inspire such vindictive hate when Nale was nine years old happened to deal with vampirism.

Anyhow, I doubt such things are planned by the Giant for the future, but they are and can be viably canon and reasonable ways for Nale to continue to plague the Order.

Geordnet

2013-08-21, 04:36 AM

Synesthesy

2013-08-21, 04:50 AM

I think that Durkula will resurrect him, becouse Elan ask him to do it. Because he's the Good twin, not the neutral one.

If Durkula wants to do it :D he is the evil one :D

Sunken Valley

2013-08-21, 04:53 AM

why he wanted to kill Malack so bad for so long as well. .

That's more the ground for a linear guild prequel. I know it would be weird to do a prequel when the cast is dead in the real comic but they are the only group (as The Giant ruled out Scribble) that matters enough.

Tobz

2013-08-21, 04:57 AM

There is nothing keeping the Giant from reserving Malack's backstory for upcoming books to be published. I definitely don't see Nale coming back simply for that purpose.

I actually hope we'll get a parallel of Start of Darkness for Tarquin's story (which would include the Nale&Malack history), because he's a villain on par of Xykon and his evil party's endeavours and the interactions between its various members would definitely be interesting.

The split loyalty of Sabine doesn't need Nale alive either to be iterated on. Putting the succubus into revenge mode, disobeying direct IFF orders, might actually even be what constitutes as the next step in that arch anyway.

The Pilgrim

2013-08-21, 05:10 AM

Maybe it's time for him to get an upgrade before we see him again. A fiendish upgrade.

Chantelune

2013-08-21, 05:16 AM

Maybe it's time for him to get an upgrade before we see him again. A fiendish upgrade.

Well, depending on were he'll end up, he might as a supplicant. Like "upgrading" to a lemure. :smallbiggrin:

Henry the 57th

2013-08-21, 05:20 AM

Not necessarily. We already know from V's soul splice that it's possible for dead evil souls to retain their knowledge, skills, and memory in the afterlife. With Sabine working directly for the IFCC, and Nale being a pawn of theirs, it's perfectly possible that they might intercede to snatch up his soul even if that is what naturally happens to it.

Nohar

2013-08-21, 05:22 AM

Death is cheap in the D&D universe. But we are not exactly in the D&D universe. We are in the Giant's universe. And the Giant made perfectly clear that he doesn't like when death is cheap.

Also, who would ressurect Nale?

Elan "might" want to do that at first, but even he may realize that it would not be a good idea, and frankly no one in the Order will want to raise him.
Tarquin may have wanted to help his son, but said son made perfectly clear that he didn't want anything from him. So, he won't raise him.
Sabine may want to raise him, depending on the possibilities she will or won't have to see him in the afterlife. However, she is under the IFCC's rule, and the IFCC has other goals for her. She won't have the luxury to raise Nale.

Chantelune

2013-08-21, 05:58 AM

Sabine may want to raise him, depending on the possibilities she will or won't have to see him in the afterlife. However, she is under the IFCC's rule, and the IFCC has other goals for her. She won't have the luxury to raise Nale.

We might find out where exactly Sabine's loyalty truly lies, depending of the IFCC's next move regarding Nale's demise. If they decided that the LG is not worth getting back, will she agree and forget about Nale, or rebel and try anyway ?

SavageWombat

2013-08-21, 09:36 AM

I'm pretty sure we'll know next strip - because if Tarquin doesn't want Nale coming back, he'll dispose of the body tout suite.

This is such an obvious move for someone of Tarquin's nature that, if he doesn't, it probably means he doesn't want Nale to stay dead. Other possibility - someone stops him from destroying the body.

So, if Nale's corpse survives #914, assume someone's bringing him back. At least for the time being.

Mordokai

2013-08-21, 09:39 AM

Hopefully, Nale is going to stay dead as a doornail.

You mean, dead as a doorNALE?

Ba-dum-tsh! (http://instantrimshot.com/)

Valanarch

2013-08-21, 10:05 AM

I believe that the next strip will feature Nale in Hell with V and Sabine. Other than that though, I don't think that we'll see him again.

littlebum2002

2013-08-21, 10:07 AM

Considering that Rich is responsible for all plot developments in this strip, and considering that he has stated numerous times how much spells like Resurrection hurt the story, I seriously doubt it.

with an e

2013-08-21, 10:11 AM

Hopefully not, but even if Nale does not return to life, we are not spared from the tedium of further appearance by the Linear Guild, because I assume Nale freeing Amun Zora and Sabine declaring her allegiance to Nale over the IFCC would have consequences down the line--and probably soon, seeing we have not ended the arc with Tarquin.

David Argall

2013-08-21, 03:38 PM

Anteros

2013-08-21, 04:16 PM

Considering that Rich is responsible for all plot developments in this strip, and considering that he has stated numerous times how much spells like Resurrection hurt the story, I seriously doubt it.

He has stated that...but on the other hand, how many characters in OOTs have come back from the dead in some form at some point to effect the plot?

Off the top of my head...Roy, Eugene, Durkon, Xykon, Soon, the entire Sapphire Guard, and probably others. However the Giant may feel about returning from the dead "cheapening" the story, it's still an integral part of his setting, and he's shown himself more than willing to use it.

Diadem

2013-08-21, 04:28 PM

He has stated that...but on the other hand, how many characters in OOTs have come back from the dead in some form at some point to effect the plot?

Off the top of my head...Roy, Eugene, Durkon, Xykon, Soon, the entire Sapphire Guard, and probably others. However the Giant may feel about returning from the dead "cheapening" the story, it's still an integral part of his setting, and he's shown himself more than willing to use it.
Actually Durkon, Xykon, Soon and the Sapphire guard don't count. Being undead is not really coming back from the dead, it's just continuing your life in a different way. And Soon and the Sapphire Guard were one-time energy spirits, which is also entirely different from coming back from the dead.

On the other hand we have jirix, almost the entire Greysky thieves guild, the wizard who teleported the OOTS to clifport, jirix again, and probably a few others I forgot.

But I think Rich's opposition is mainly to True Resurrection. Raise Dead and Resurrection just make it harder to make dead stick, but not impossible. Destroy the body and you're done. Narratively this is no different from Vampires or Zombies, who also require special techniques to make sure they are truly dead. True Resurrection however basically means that dead can always be reversed. That's a whole other ballpark.

In a world with resurrection, characters can return sometimes, but it takes only 1 disintegrate to permanently get rid of a character. In a world with true resurrection, you can never permanently get rid of a character. The possibility of the character coming back will always keep hanging over the story.

BlackDragonKing

2013-08-21, 04:29 PM

We have the death of Z, the presumed death of Thog, and now the death of Nale. That sounds a lot like a full wiping the LG put of the story.
Still, there are possibilities. Sabine might try to revive Nale. And there is the matter of our three fiends. They are shown as needing tools like Nale to act in the mortal world. On the given facts, they should be horrified at Nale's death and desperate to have him back. However it may be time to write them out of the story too. And the writer might stick with them saying "exactly according to plan" despite there being no visible plan.

I don't think the IFCC's done, but I do think they're done with the Linear Guild. Remember, it wasn't any particular quality of Nale's that made him at all valuable to them; they just needed some moron Sabine could point at the gates to stir up a lot of unnecessary conflict. Hell, letting Nale die to have the Order trying to stop Tarquin AND Xykon while Tarquin and the order both oppose Xykon might be exactly what the IFCC were hoping for; now an empire's bending its resources towards the IFCC's hope that Xykon doesn't succeed, and a bigger conflict will come of that than anything Nale could whip up on his own.

He has stated that...but on the other hand, how many characters in OOTs have come back from the dead in some form at some point to effect the plot?

Off the top of my head...Roy, Eugene, Durkon, Xykon, Soon, the entire Sapphire Guard, and probably others. However the Giant may feel about returning from the dead "cheapening" the story, it's still an integral part of his setting, and he's shown himself more than willing to use it.

Of those, only one was a true revival; Roy came back, and that was a fairly epic quest in and of itself involving everyone else getting a lot done. Eugene appears but has very little influence beyond annoying the crap out of Roy while Roy tries to wrangle useful info from him, and Soon and the Sapphire Guard were just ghosts that could occupy one chamber while Soon's Gate stood, a way to show how Soon aimed to defend his gate rather than any kind of revival that influenced the plot all that much. As for Xykon, he's a lich to both give him phenomenal powers beyond what an elderly but epic human sorcerer's got and to make him a threat that is both very challenging for a fighter's skill set and impossible to wait out. Other than Roy, the only person who's double-X'd and come back as themselves is the Oracle. Coming back from the dead might be common in other DnD campaigns, but this one makes a big deal out of every time a dead character comes back. Most of them just don't.

I suppose Nale's spirit might still commit some mischief, but I don't see much point to it, really. They've thinned the herd of bad guys as one gate remains standing down to the serious threats to the Order, I don't see any reason to undo that.

Anteros

2013-08-21, 04:40 PM

It doesn't matter if they were "revived" to meet a specific and strict definition that you want to use. The point is that at one point they were dead, and then they came back into the story. The method they used is entirely irrelevant.

We KNOW that Sabine and the IFCC are still active players in events. We saw them like 10 strips ago. They're hardly going to just ignore one of their most valuable pawns being removed from the board. Especially given how obsessed Sabine is with Nale. He may not get a resurrection, but he'll definitely be back in the comic in some form.

Also, if anyone really thinks Thog is dead, I have some beachfront property in a swamp I'd like to sell them.

nocker

2013-08-21, 04:54 PM

Nale's soul should be reforming as a Lemure in hell. As he didn't seem to be particularly devoted to any evil god, his soul is right now fair game for the other devils, which is never a good thing.

Now, among these devils is Director Lee. Depending on how important is the mission, Lee could as well summon Nale's Lemure to his presence and immediately shape him into some a advanced form of devil, and send him back to the Prime with Sabine.

But then again, the IFCC seems to prefer subtlety instead fiendish incursions, so it's more probable that they just dismiss Sabine and Qarr from the case (if not just from the case, from existence too) and try to get another way to interfere.

Finally, one of Nale's last acts was to destroy the high priest from a Lawful Evil deity, for reasons that did nothing to further lawful goals (if anything, the empires will be thrown into some chaos now). And he's still going to the Lawful Evil afterlife. Things will get interesting for him, there, for all the horrifying values of interesting.

SavageWombat

2013-08-21, 05:20 PM

nocker

2013-08-21, 05:25 PM

If souls became lemures in Hell (as D&D would indicate) we wouldn't have the souls shackled to V for the IFCC. So we don't really know what Rich intends for the evil afterlife.

I'm still hoping to see Belkar rampaging through Pandemonium in some bizarre subplot to help the group post-mortem.

Or, for the matter, the choir of pedophiles. Now that I remember these, it's clear that there's custom afterlife rules in this campaign.

NZNinja

2013-08-21, 05:32 PM

davidbofinger

2013-08-22, 06:30 AM

From a practical point of view Nale has a better chance of coming back than most victims. That's partly because Tarquin might have felt obliged to kill him - he admitted to killing a minister of the empire in front of thousands of witnesses so if Tarquin didn't kill Nale it would look like unreasonable nepotism to the empress. So it's possible Tarquin doesn't really want Nale permanently dead and at some stage could decide to resurrect him.

That said, Tarquin has no reason to resurrect Nale in the short term, and narratively it seems kind of pointless.

Baron Pineapple's suggestion of Nale as a succubus (actually, much more likely an incubus) is a fun idea. Maybe something like:

Tarquin and the Order of the Stick see no reason to raise Nale.
Sabine is desperate to have him back.
Sabine pitches the idea to the IFCC, who have the power/authority to do it. "He has the charisma for it even without the incubus bonus, he's already used substitution and his girlfriend is in the business. Where are you going to find a better candidate?"
The IFCC demand a price from Sabine in return. She hesitates but really has no choice.
Vaarsuvius' clock runs out (a lot can happen in 20 minutes) and Vaarsuvius is returned to the Order of the Stick.
Vaarsuvius persuades Durkula to raise Nale, because Vaarsuvius fears what the IFCC will do with Sabine's price. The IFCC don't recall Vaarsuvius (or not in time) perhaps because they are too distracted with contract negotiations, or because mere delay is pointless.
Nale and Sabine run off together to plot new villainies. "Thanks Elf, you're all right."

Faramir

2013-08-22, 07:02 AM

Personally I'm still 50/50 on whether

this was Tarquin's only way of protecting Nale from his allies and he intends to raise him later

Chantelune

2013-08-22, 07:36 AM

I see Nale getting resurrected, if only because saying no to Elan when he's begging for his brother's life would be worse than kicking a bucketful of puppies. The only person I could see doing it would be Tarquin.

Frankly, that would be stupid, even from Elan. And I consider Elan to be stupidity incarnate.

Even him should have grown enough as a character now, especially after the illusion trip, to realize than Nale being dead is for the best. If they bring him back, then what ? Put him in a cell ? It was proved insufficient every single time. Let him go ? He'll probably try to put back on some new LG and come back again.

The probability that he would be grateful enough to decide to stop being a villain, or at the very least stop bothering the Order, is too low. Sure, Sabine might bring him back, but she might as well not and between a maybe and a for sure in this situation, it's still better to take the chance that she won't.

Elan might feel sorry for his brother, I hope he'll realize that it's one less problem to worry over. If not... then he's even dumber than I think he is and that shouldn't be possible. :smallconfused:

dnzrx

2013-08-22, 07:42 AM

Storytelling-wise, I would say no.

Bringing someone (significant) back is just as serious, storytelling-wise, as killing them off in the first place. They are most effective when done sparingly. Use it too often and they both lose all meaning and weight.

Giant loathes to use the D&D resurrection spells for a reason, it is not good storytelling if used incorrectly, which, unfortunately, happens WAY too often and ruins stories based on D&D.

We all love the comic because of its rich story-telling. Lets us not ruin it by asking for a dead main character to be resurrected.

nmphuong91

2013-08-22, 08:08 AM

I don't think that Nale will be back as living human, because that would be pointless of this strip.

F.Harr

2013-08-22, 08:30 AM

Sabine visiting Nale in the afterlife might make for a really good story.

halfeye

2013-08-22, 08:36 AM

No.

Tarquin will hold an elaborate funeral with lots of pomp, marching etc., ending in a pyre.

Darkohaku

2013-08-22, 08:48 AM

I don't think that Nale will get resurrected, but I'm sure it's not the end of his story. Maybe we will get a flashback of Tarquin about Nale past, or the story of the Linear Guild in a new book. Or maybe Nale gets back in some form (ghost, demon, etc.)
But probably he will not resurrect.

shanytopper

2013-08-22, 08:50 AM

I'm actually pretty sure this was Nale's plan. To die. He probably has some sort of backup plan to get back to life. Maybe he gave a blood sample to some one before he entered the city or something, or maybe he has a deal with Sabine, or her bosses.

Not ruling him out. Not by a long shot.

A dumbass bastard is still a bastard, and his plans? They are complex

Ron Miel

2013-08-22, 09:24 AM

I'm pretty sure we'll know next strip - because if Tarquin doesn't want Nale coming back, he'll dispose of the body tout suite.

I predict that he will disintegrate the body. Thus convincing Laurin that he's dead beyond raising.

Then later he will secretly use the blood on the knife for a rez.

137beth

2013-08-22, 09:49 AM

I doubt it--he probably wouldn't be much use to the IFCC without the linear guild, so Sabine may not raise him. Other than that, everyone who liked him is either dead or is the one who killed him.

Coat

2013-08-22, 10:38 AM

I've argued before that the thing that makes Nale dangerous is that he doesn't really have any self-imposed limitations on what he'll do.

Most of the evil characters in the comic do: Xykon's evil is significantly limited by his low boredom threshold, Thog is too stupid to do much harm - even Tarquin likes a bit of structure around him and is loyal to his friends. There are some lines he won't cross - at least not easily. And like Nale says - he's protecting his rut. He's not focused on the Big Game.

Nale on the other hand... his love for overcomplicating things has brought many of his plans down, but when an opportunity presents itself, he takes it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html). Compare Tarquin's murder of Nale with Nale's attempt to murder Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html).

Sabine has mentioned that her masters see serious potential in Nale. In my opinion, the only thing holding him back from being a genuine serious threat is a lack of real power.

So yeah, I think Nale's coming back. I think the IFCC is going to make him an offer, and I think he's arrogant and ruthless enough to take it, regardless of the cost which could well be Sabine

I think we're going to see him again, and when we do, he won't be funny.

Quorothorn

2013-08-22, 12:21 PM

On the other hand we have jirix, almost the entire Greysky thieves guild, the wizard who teleported the OOTS to clifport, jirix again, and probably a few others I forgot.

It seemed implied to me that the dead thieves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html) and the teleporting wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html) may not have actually ended up getting raised. Which would lower the characters we know for sure got a Raise Dead or Resurrection to something like: Eugene, Roy, Jirix, the Oracle, that one revolving door guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html)...

Anyway, Nale may have a role left to play in this story aside from the events he's already set in motion, but I realllly doubt he's getting Raised, and frankly, I'd be annoyed if he did.

David Argall

2013-08-22, 12:37 PM

I don't think the IFCC's done, but I do think they're done with the Linear Guild.
But how are they to get back in the plot? While they surely have a lot of agents we do not see, they are out of sight doing other things. They have to be invented from scratch. Sabine and the imp are both instigators, not able to do much of the field work. Unless they are lying to us [an obvious possibility] V can only do nothing for them. So how are they to actually start meddling again?

Remember, it wasn't any particular quality of Nale's that made him at all valuable to them; they just needed some moron Sabine could point at the gates to stir up a lot of unnecessary conflict.

Read the "unnecessary conflict" comment a little closer. The fiends are only interested in unnecessary conflict for tactical reasons. No doubt they like the general idea for its evil potential, but they condemn the unnecessary conflict of the Blood War because it is distracting evil. In the case of V, it would stir things up when they threatened to stagnate and never reach their goals. They wanted the lich to get out of the city and after the prize. Conflict was just a way to achieve that.
The fiends have made a big investment here, and need the prospect of a major payout. Control of a gate might do, as would several other things, but making a bunch of mortals run in circles, while amusing, is not going to pay for the time and effort involved.

thefullnelson

2013-08-22, 01:34 PM

137beth

2013-08-22, 01:49 PM

I asked this question elsewhere, but if it was answered I didn't see it (sorry if I missed it).

What happens if Sabine planeshifts to the plane that Nale's soul goes to, then the next day, grabs him and planeshifts back to the material plane? Would Nale be left behind? Would he be a ghost in the "real" world? Would it function as a munchkin's way to make the planeshift spell double as a resurrection spell?

I've never had a character reach high enough level for it to matter (and I play in circles with a high emphasis on ROLE playing, as opposed to ROLL playing, so it has never occured to me before).

It's a "DM's discretion" sort of thing. It is highly dependant on the cosmology and the nature of the afterlife in that particular, game, which is very world-specific.
Plane shift is a lower level than resurrection. However, the idea of adventuring to the underworld to bring someone back is fairly cool. In my games, you can use plane shift to bring someone back, but you have to do more than just cast a spell twice. It also might be harder to convince a spirit to return if you visit them in person than if you use a resurrection spell...

Sabine doesn't necessarily need to, though. If she wanted to bring Nale back, she could find a scroll of resurrection and a cleric with a wisdom of 17.

Weiser_Cain

2013-08-22, 06:44 PM

It seemed implied to me that the dead thieves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html) and the teleporting wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html) may not have actually ended up getting raised. Which would lower the characters we know for sure got a Raise Dead or Resurrection to something like: Eugene, Roy, Jirix, the Oracle, that one revolving door guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html)...

Anyway, Nale may have a role left to play in this story aside from the events he's already set in motion, but I realllly doubt he's getting Raised, and frankly, I'd be annoyed if he did.

Eugene? Roy's dad?

Ron Miel

2013-08-22, 07:35 PM

Yeah, it's reported in one of the prequels that he died and was raised several times before his final death of old age.

137beth

2013-08-22, 08:03 PM

It was in On the Origin's of the PCs.

CletusMusashi

2013-08-22, 08:24 PM

We've seen a lot of scenes making it clear that Sabine is an important side-villain, not just the girlfiend of one. We've also seen a lot of scenes making it clear that she really honestly does love Nale. We're certainly going to see him again, although whether it's his Roy-style quest through the afterlife, or him haunting Elan, or him taking over Mr. Scruffy's body and telling Belkar to set really complicated fires... Nale is still in the game.
Thog isn't gone either. There's been onscreen talk of not finding the body. You don't have to be a bard to know what that means. Too bad Nale was stabbed rather than decapitated. Sewing his head on next to Thog's would have been fun.
And speaking of... if Nale is dead as doornail, does that mean that since Nale nailed and doornail Nale not "Nale" Nale... that Thog can have puppy now?
Nale wasting his dead-time haunting the Order while Thog goes rampaging around on a giant Cerberus... could be fun.

Infinite

2013-08-22, 08:24 PM

Here's a crazy theory: Sabine gets part of Nales corpse and reunites with Leeky Windstaff. He casts Reincarnate on Nale, and Nale comes back... as a kobold.

And Belkar ends up killing him.

CletusMusashi

2013-08-22, 08:48 PM

I love it!
Or he goes to the afterlife, as suggested, but there's a typo, so he ends up becoming.. a lemur.
Pretty sure that whatever he becomes will still have the goatee though.

Quorothorn

2013-08-22, 08:58 PM

Eugene? Roy's dad?

Yeah, his tombstone in On the Origin of PCs actually has multiple date ranges. :smallbiggrin:
1102-1124, 1124-1143, 1144-1149, 1149-1158, 1158-1159, 1159-1168, 1168-1180
So, he was Raised six times.

(Actually, the same graveyard has a Leeron the Unlucky, who was born in 1014 and died in 1141...four times. So add another to that list, I guess.)

Knight.Anon

2013-08-22, 09:02 PM

OotS hasn't had a major villain killed and returned yet. I don't know if that makes it more or less likely for Nale to return. If the Psion doesn't capture it, Nales soul is hell-bound.

There is no way that Nale didn't sell his soul to his girlfriend. So a new Nale is inevitable. Paint him red and stick some horns on him and he's good to go.

It will be fun to see what happens, assuming that anything happens.

Knight.Anon

2013-08-22, 09:05 PM

Here's a crazy theory: Sabine gets part of Nales corpse and reunites with Leeky Windstaff. He casts Reincarnate on Nale, and Nale comes back... as a kobold.

And Belkar ends up killing him.

I think being a Kobold is what Belkar's karma train is chugging into. If Nale became a Kobold Belkar would turn him into a jacket and a side-dish.

Ron Miel

2013-08-22, 09:24 PM

OotS hasn't had a major villain killed and returned yet.

Except Xykon.

AstralFire

2013-08-22, 10:13 PM

Decent chance he'll continue to stay involved in the story from the afterlife.

I hope, however, that he remains dead. Good bloody riddance. I think the last few pages of this arc are the only times I've ever felt a plot was more interesting for his inclusion.

Knight.Anon

2013-08-22, 11:37 PM

Except Xykon.

Xykon's been dead and loving it for the entire strip. There was a prequel book that gave the origin of team evil though. The Oracle was killed and came back, but he's more annoying than anything else. Although he used his knowledge to cripple Belkar - I don't think he likes Belkar.

Ron Miel

2013-08-23, 08:50 AM

Xykon was destroyed in book 1. He got better.

Toper

2013-08-23, 09:58 AM

No way Nale is out of the picture yet. There are two many loose ends to take care of in his arc. Most notably, Sabine's split loyalties between him and the IFCC, and possibly why he wanted to kill Malack so bad for so long as well. We'll at the very least see him in the Fires Below, giving Sabine a chance to continue her own arch.

That's the bare minimum for a cohesive story at this point, but I personally think Nale's in this comic for the long haul. He may or may not be permanently dead, but I doubt he's gone for good.
I agree with this, and I hope we're right. I really like Sabine and Nale's relationship, and I think it's important to one of the comic's main themes, the different varieties of evil and of evil characters.

But it's certainly possible that this will continue with Sabine alone. Nale... could be about as developed as he'll get, as a character. He hasn't generally shown much inclination to learn, grow, or change (though his plan to kill Malack was a bit of new facet). The Giant might just not need him onscreen anymore.

ThesaurusRex757

2013-08-23, 10:34 AM

I can't help but feel like Roy's comment in #911 about "one drop of blood" to bring V back might come into play. Tarquin obviously cares for his sons a great deal, and I can see him bringing Nale back, perhaps after dramatically cleaning the dagger off in the next comic?

David Argall

2013-08-23, 12:51 PM

Here's a crazy theory: ...
For a crazy theory, try ...
The fiends freak out about losing their tool, and turn to V, offering her a deal if he works to raise Nale. [V can't do this all herself, but he should be able to arrange it.] However, he adds the detail that Sabine become CG and serve as Nale's conscience, mostly because she thinks this will stop them begging him. She is shocked when they accept. [Switching sides like this should be no problem. The fiends/angels are disgusted by the "perverted" behavior of the opposite alignment and routinely would rather literally die rather than change. If they were candidates for change, they would not be fiends [or angels] in the first place. Sabine, however, has the good emotion of wanting to save her lover, and thus can make the switch. A lesser motive is that the task is very difficult, and will likely be quite emotionally painful for the good Sabine, which amuses the evil Sabine.
So with Elan and V's backing, Nale [& Sabine] join the party. Chaos ensues.
I don't consider this likely. Our writer has shown reluctance to deal with romantic themes, and this would be a difficult one. But it keeps Nale in play.

BlackDragonKing

2013-08-23, 01:16 PM

But how are they to get back in the plot? While they surely have a lot of agents we do not see, they are out of sight doing other things. They have to be invented from scratch. Sabine and the imp are both instigators, not able to do much of the field work. Unless they are lying to us [an obvious possibility] V can only do nothing for them. So how are they to actually start meddling again?

Well, Sabine and Quarr aren't out of the action, for one thing, and for another...Sabine commented that the IFCC has people on EVERY side in this conflict, V being their hook in the Order...but this might mean someone we know in Team Evil is a tool the IFCC means to make use of, and that someone in Tarquin's increasingly involved team is ALSO a tool they can use.

The IFCC are playing EVERYONE, it's just the side they had complete control over instead of some hooks has fizzled. I can't say this has likely thrown the IFCC that much; if they were able to predict with such accuracy that they could get V to attack Xykon and get Xykon moving just by offering a deal, they had to have known Nale and Tarquin well enough to see where this had a good probability of going. Nale dying exactly like that was probably not their precise intent, but I wouldn't rule out that the linear guild was an "acceptable loss" for the IFCC to get something new moving.

Read the "unnecessary conflict" comment a little closer. The fiends are only interested in unnecessary conflict for tactical reasons. No doubt they like the general idea for its evil potential, but they condemn the unnecessary conflict of the Blood War because it is distracting evil. In the case of V, it would stir things up when they threatened to stagnate and never reach their goals. They wanted the lich to get out of the city and after the prize. Conflict was just a way to achieve that.
The fiends have made a big investment here, and need the prospect of a major payout. Control of a gate might do, as would several other things, but making a bunch of mortals run in circles, while amusing, is not going to pay for the time and effort involved.

I meant the unnecessary conflict thing in that the IFCC wanted Nale to stir things up for them; I believe it's on record that they have a vested interest in Xykon LOSING, and I don't know that the gates are the goal at all; only the chosen of the Dark One can control them as things currently stand, after all, and the IFCC has precisely zero investment in the mortal world in their aim to end the blood war and unite against Good. I'm starting to wonder if the IFCC wants every side to fail, and the world to be unmade...

M.A.D

2013-08-23, 01:36 PM

most likely know, but their are three possibly reasons for why Nale might come back.

1) We don't know what Malack did to him when he was 9, their is still a story to be told with Nale

2) Sabrine is still alive and actually loves Nale.

3) Nale just proved to everybody that he is far more complex and intelligence than anybody gave him credit for. Their is potential for him to grow and become more interesting. That being said maybe this is as much as you can do with a character like this

My bet is no, but I have been wrong before.

1) Prequel material. Could be because Malack ate the last cookie or something.

2) So is Tarquin, at least for the alive part. And he knows as well as anyone how Resurrection spells work. If he destroys the body then Sabine has to try to get her hands on a True Ressurection spell, which the Giant had expressly said that it's simply not available anywhere.

3) On the contrary, Nale has just proven himself to be the most reckless, vain, and intelligently-redundant character I have ever seen. If he believes that his father is allowing him to get killed by an undead lizard, he should never have gloated about killing that very same lizard in front of his father, for apparently no strategical advantage than simply to spite him. He literally couldn't shut his mouth to save his own life.

I can't say that I wouldn't laugh if Nale happened to be rewarded in such a way, and I'd probably find it even more amusing if Sabine happens to gain a new sister in the process.

A word you should consider is "incubus", the male counter part of succubus.

For a crazy theory, try ...
The fiends freak out about losing their tool, and turn to V, offering her a deal if he works to raise Nale. [V can't do this all herself, but he should be able to arrange it.] However, he adds the detail that Sabine become CG and serve as Nale's conscience, mostly because she thinks this will stop them begging him. She is shocked when they accept. [Switching sides like this should be no problem. The fiends/angels are disgusted by the "perverted" behavior of the opposite alignment and routinely would rather literally die rather than change. If they were candidates for change, they would not be fiends [or angels] in the first place. Sabine, however, has the good emotion of wanting to save her lover, and thus can make the switch. A lesser motive is that the task is very difficult, and will likely be quite emotionally painful for the good Sabine, which amuses the evil Sabine.
So with Elan and V's backing, Nale [& Sabine] join the party. Chaos ensues.
I don't consider this likely. Our writer has shown reluctance to deal with romantic themes, and this would be a difficult one. But it keeps Nale in play.

Haley and Elan counts as romantic theme though, and I think he dealt with them pretty well.

On the other hand, I agree that your theory is unlikely. Mechanics-wise, V can't cast Resurrection spells because they're Cleric spells.

Storywise, making a deal with the IFCC to allow them to put two more of their pawns into her very own team isn't something V is prone to do, for whatever price, especially when she had just been tricked by the first deal and doesn't care about anything happening to her own soul, since it would only serve as redemption for her massacre. Also, while Nale might only be a ghost at this point, Sabine can still sex him up in the Afterlife plane for Lawful Evil in her spare times, so it's still good for their relationship.

Ring_of_Gyges

2013-08-23, 02:03 PM

I'd be surprised.

There aren't too many high level clerics already in the story who would want to. Durkon might, but I can't imagine Nale accepting his brother's charity, I suspect he'd rather stay dead. Redcloak doesn't have any reason to, and that's about it on the high level cleric front.

Anyone high level could plausibly go hire a high level cleric, but we don't know how common they are. The time and trouble it took to raise Roy makes me think they aren't super common.

Would Sabine want to raise Nale? I like my loved ones alive because it means I get to spend time with them. Depending on what the afterlife is like, Nale's new digs in hell aren't necessarily a reason he can't spend time with Sabine. She might just see it as her long distance boyfriend moving into her town...

Jasdoif

2013-08-23, 02:09 PM

If Nale does get raised, his death will be worth as much as the sacrifice it took to undo it. It'll only be cheap if it comes easily.

There'd be a lot of dramatic potential in seeing how much Sabine is willing to sacrifice to get Nale brought back to life...and even more in seeing how far she actually goes in the attempt.

thefullnelson

2013-08-23, 02:17 PM

It's a "DM's discretion" sort of thing. It is highly dependant on the cosmology and the nature of the afterlife in that particular, game, which is very world-specific.
Plane shift is a lower level than resurrection. However, the idea of adventuring to the underworld to bring someone back is fairly cool. In my games, you can use plane shift to bring someone back, but you have to do more than just cast a spell twice. It also might be harder to convince a spirit to return if you visit them in person than if you use a resurrection spell...

Sabine doesn't necessarily need to, though. If she wanted to bring Nale back, she could find a scroll of resurrection and a cleric with a wisdom of 17.

Cool, thanks. I don't really expect this to happen in the story... I guess I just feel that there are more satisfying directions the story could take, but that's just IMO.

Fenyang

2013-08-23, 02:27 PM

Although there are those with interest in Nale coming back to life, Tarquin is not that stupid. He will take precautions that no resurrect is made. I would not be surprised with a disintegration at next update.

Remember, by refusing his help and alliance, Nale became a threat to Tarquin.

Baron Pineapple

2013-08-23, 08:19 PM

1)
A word you should consider is "incubus", the male counter part of succubus.

While I know very well what it mean when others have brought this up, I am not entirely ignorant of the paradigm of which I speak. In 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Edition D&D there are no incubi as a separate demon-type.

While our classical RL myths have differentiated the succubi into male and female personalities, in D&D the succubi are the strata of demonkind that occupy the niche of temptation and deceit through desire and lust. They take the form of whatever race, gender, and species they find most useful. A succubi might operate as a male for an extended period of time and even be referred to by sages as an 'incubus', but when all is said and done it's still a succubus. Refer to the MM1 stat block or even the old 1st Ed entries.

4th Ed seems to run off the reservation with making succubi into devils and incubi a mutated form of succubi created by Grazzt.

But since OotS is set primarily in the paradigm of 3/3.5 Edition D&D, from a RAW as written and canon lore POV, the term incubus is a misnomer or IC-ly mistaken appellation given to a succubus that has assumed a male seeming. From a practical point of view however, given that shapechanging and magical disguise are pretty much at-will abilities for a succubus, if a succubus-Nale wanted to look male, it totally could. But the default appearance, for example through a True Seeing or Take the True Form spell, would be as written in the Monster Manual:

This creature is stunning, statuesque, and extraordinarily beautiful, with flawless skin and raven hair. Her form, so tempting, also has an otherworldly side. Large bat wings unfurl from her back, and her eyes glow with sinister desire.

Sorry for seeming so nit-picky about this, but it irks me when the wrong terminology is encouraged.

SavageWombat

2013-08-23, 08:22 PM

I never liked it when people tried to make the incubus a different class of demon either. Surely an incubus should be a slick lounge-lizard in a silk shirt picking up lonely women at nightclubs.

dps

2013-08-23, 08:41 PM

ChaosArchon

2013-08-24, 02:55 AM

I can't say that I wouldn't laugh if Nale happened to be rewarded in such a way, and I'd probably find it even more amusing if Sabine happens to gain a new sister in the process.

Just a little nit-pick but male souls become incubui, not sucubui. So Nale would still be a guy, just a guy who is the personification of illicit sex.

EDIT: ninja'd

signalman

2013-08-24, 03:10 AM

All I can say is - I did not see Nales murder coming!

hamishspence

2013-08-24, 06:08 AM

While I know very well what it mean when others have brought this up, I am not entirely ignorant of the paradigm of which I speak. In 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Edition D&D there are no incubi as a separate demon-type.

Dragon Magazine (Demonomicon- Malcanthet) had them as a separate type of demon- only CR 3, and with no wings.

Kish

2013-08-24, 07:19 AM

Will Nale retun? Uh, how about no?

Illsbane

2013-08-24, 07:33 AM

I agree with this, and I hope we're right. I really like Sabine and Nale's relationship, and I think it's important to one of the comic's main themes, the different varieties of evil and of evil characters.

But it's certainly possible that this will continue with Sabine alone. Nale... could be about as developed as he'll get, as a character. He hasn't generally shown much inclination to learn, grow, or change (though his plan to kill Malack was a bit of new facet). The Giant might just not need him onscreen anymore.

Yeah, I have to agree with you guys.

I think it most likely that the great puppetmasters (IFCC) have plans that will bring (some version of) Nale back.
That, or they needed something to have Sabine unleash a level of evil savagery even she had been repressing so far, like the death of her lover at a time when she was unable to help him.

Hmm. Will the first thing Sabine does upon returning to the prime material plane be to attack Tarquin and his allies? I wonder...

Kish

2013-08-24, 07:34 AM

She may well act against them; I don't think she's stupid enough to charge in like a raging berserker.

Illsbane

2013-08-24, 11:02 AM

By the time she's done with them, they may wish she had...

Baron Pineapple

2013-08-24, 12:19 PM

Dragon Magazine (Demonomicon- Malcanthet) had them as a separate type of demon- only CR 3, and with no wings.

Dragon magazine is not considered a canon source for official material. All articles within were solicited as optional and non-core. The same is true for Dungeon magazine. Sorry, but I stand by my statement about succubi being a demonic tier type (Remember Type I, II, and so forth?), and incubi being a misnomer for succubi that happen to take male form.

hamishspence

2013-08-24, 12:35 PM

Dragon magazine is not considered a canon source for official material. All articles within were solicited as optional and non-core. The same is true for Dungeon magazine. Sorry, but I stand by my statement about succubi being a demonic tier type (Remember Type I, II, and so forth?), and incubi being a misnomer for succubi that happen to take male form.

There was a "100% official content" label on Dragon for a long period in 3.5.

And the writer of the Demonomicon articles also wrote Fiendish Codex 1, one of the 3.5 WoTC D&D splatbooks.

The point I'm trying to make is - 4e wasn't the first D&D source to portray Incubi and Succubi as different types of fiend- though it was the first ever source to portray Succubi as devils instead of demons.

In any case, Incubi don't appear in any of the 4e core books- only in one of the splatbooks- called Demonomicon, in fact.

Hague

2013-08-24, 12:36 PM

Kish

2013-08-24, 12:39 PM

You know... if Durkon DOES attempt to revive Nale, that would put to rest the new Durkon's alignment. Nale would know the person reviving him is Lawful Evil and might not go to spite what he presumes is his father.
You know, I'm starting to wish Haley had spent entirely-superfluous words spelling out exactly what the Draketooth learned before refusing resurrection.

Nale would learn that the person reviving him is Lawful Evil and named Durkon Thundershield. Whether he would come back for Zz'dtri's murderer is an open question, but he wouldn't refuse on the assumption that his father had multiclassed to cleric and gained 13 levels suddenly.

Sky_Schemer

2013-08-24, 12:40 PM

I, too, would be surprised if Nale returned. Mostly, it's because I feel that the story has simply outgrown the Linear Guild and it was time for them to go. Their original shtick was evil opposites, and Nale's irrational hatred of his brother for reasons that never really came out. Back in the first book, it was a good joke, but the story is now a story rather than a loose connection of gags and isolated adventures. The Linear Guild no longer fits in this narrative, and neither does Nale.

Sabine does present a complication, but her story is merging with that of the IFCC. And as others have pointed out, we may still see Nale in the afterlife. Nale's story has really turned into the story of Elan and his dad, and frankly that one is 10 times more interesting than what came before it.

Scurvy Cur

2013-08-24, 12:45 PM

A lot of the succubus/incubus differentiation depends entirely on the DM's interpretation of the cosmology, and how they want to sort out a thematic gender dependence for a fiend whose core temptation mechanic relies on shapeshifting and subterfuge.

The cleanest explanation I've heard from a DM on the matter is that succubi themselves are genderless, or at least not bound to any gender. At this point, what point is there for a differentiation between succubi and incubi? To paraphrase Sabine: your classical gender conventions are meaningless to a shapeshifter.

hamishspence

2013-08-24, 12:47 PM

Just a little nit-pick but male souls become incubui, not sucubui.

It's entirely possible that in 3.0 some succubi have "male" as their natural form rather than female, and are commonly called incubi. Savage Species's entry for them as a Monster Class labelled it Incubus/Succubus, and depicted one, in its demonic form, as a male:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ss_gallery/49130.jpg

Hague

2013-08-24, 12:55 PM

Hah, yeah, it does give the name too, doesn't it? Hrm...

Shining Wrath

2013-08-24, 01:04 PM

I vote for seeing Nale in the afterlife, but he will not trouble the Order in the flesh again - or at least, not soon.

V, Sabine, the IFCC, and Qarr (presumably) just watched Nale die. Possibly Z as well. I think we need to see how that plays out. I'm guessing the IFCC is not happy at all with watching Nale go loose cannon and then get die a fool's death.

EDIT:

Point of order: in a world with gods and an afterlife, Nale is still alive ... he just doesn't have a body. You ARE a soul; you HAVE a body for a portion of eternity. Sabine may be satisfied with doing the nasty with Nale's soul - in point of fact, the level drain thing may go away and it'll be better.

Illsbane

2013-08-24, 03:04 PM

Incidentally, wasn't it sad to see how shocked Elan was by Nale's death?

Despite everything that happened, some part of him must have still been holding out hope for both his brother's and his father's redemption...

That should be over now, though.

Weiser_Cain

2013-08-24, 06:07 PM

Well he is Chaotic Good IIRC.

The Oni

2013-08-25, 10:09 AM

Baron Pineapple

2013-08-25, 02:39 PM

It's also been implied (by an awkward conversation with Nale) that Sabine can shapeshift into dudes, too, and it certainly looked like that's what she was doing while impersonating that guard...but at any rate, Nale's not likely to show up as a succubus, male or female variant, 'cos if I remember correctly demons and devils alike are typically formed based on their greatest sins as mortals. Nale's would probably not be Lust (not that he wouldn't qualify, but I think his other sins and hubrises would outstrip it by far).

I don't think it's changed since the days of 1st and 2nd Ed, but the different demonic tiers have nothing to do with your sins in mortal life, you simply get 'promoted' whenever someone higher up decides to put you through the process. There was a ritual of sorts if I recall correctly, that I read back in the days of the old 'binders' monstrous compendiums.