Has Sabine lost her anchor to the real world?

[Bolt-on-headlamps]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I was wondering - is Nale the only reason that Sabine can manifest herself in prime material? Kind of like when Roy's sword was shattered, Eugene couldn't appear anymore. Any thoughts?

[KillianHawkeye]

No, Sabine is a demon who can travel the planes more or less however she wants. She is not some kind of ephemeral spirit.

[Sylian]

That's quite possible, though Qaar seemed to be able to move between the planes freely, though perhaps he only could because he was Z's familiar.

[Sylian]

No, Sabine is a demon who can travel the planes more or less however she wants. She is not some kind of ephemeral spirit.In fiction, don't cultists often try to summon demons? Perhaps it's different in D&D 3.5 or in this comic, I'm not sure, but this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0362.html) comic seems to imply that it is, indeed, possible to summon demons. Or at least that the CPPD believes that it's possible.

[luc258]

I used to think that in D&D demons have to be summoned to be unleashed on the normal world?

[KillianHawkeye]

In fiction, don't cultists often try to summon demons? Perhaps it's different in D&D 3.5 or in this comic, I'm not sure, but this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0362.html) comic seems to imply that it is, indeed, possible to summon demons. Or at least that the CPPD believes that it's possible.

Yes, you can summon fiends. We have actually seen quite a bit of that, between Redcloak's devils and two fiends the LG had in recent strips.

But that is completely different from Sabine. She is on the Material Plane for the long term, because she chooses to be. She is shown to be capable of coming and going from this plane whenever she wants.


I used to think that in D&D demons have to be summoned to be unleashed on the normal world?

Maybe in older editions. I'm not sure. But any recent versions of D&D have Outsiders who are just as capable of planar travel as mortals are. Some of them can even do so as a natural ability.

You are maybe thinking of how demons and devils can summon others of their kind for aid?

[Vinyadan]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I was wondering - is Nale the only reason that Sabine can manifest herself in prime material? Kind of like when Roy's sword was shattered, Eugene couldn't appear anymore. Any thoughts?

We know that Tarquin has had personal knowledge of her most useful skillset (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html), so there's still that.

[luc258]

You are maybe thinking of how demons and devils can summon others of their kind for aid?
I was thinking of the Drizzt books where Errtu needed to be summoned to come to the world and find crenshinibon.
Maybe it was just older editions, the story is quite old.

[Xelbiuj]

Once summoned she can come and go, if she is killed, she'll go back to the lower planes and need to be re-summoned. I think.

[KillianHawkeye]

Once summoned she can come and go, if she is killed, she'll go back to the lower planes and need to be re-summoned. I think.

Sabine has demonstrated the ability to plane shift. She does NOT need to be summoned at all. Period.

[Gift Jeraff]

Qarr was fine when Kubota died.

[KillianHawkeye]

Qarr was fine when Kubota died.

Good point. So was Z's daemon (although he decided to leave once he saw his boss was dead).

There is basically no merit to the idea, in the comic or in D&D, that a summoned creature is dependent on their summoner to create a link between them and the material plane. There is also no evidence to support the idea that Sabine was ever summoned by Nale (or anyone at all). I really have no idea where the OP even came up with this theory, since demons and ghosts operate according to different rules and pretty much have nothing at all in common.

[Diadem]

If demons can come and go at their leasure though, that does raise the question as to why the chaotic evil demons of the lower realms (of which there presumably are many) don't use this more often.

Ie: Why is the world not filled with rampaging demons slaughtering peasants?

[Psyren]

Unless I'm mistaken, their whole reason for sending her up there was to get Nale under their thumb, so it's anyone's guess what her orders will be now. Also, if Nale ends up down there with her, she may not want to leave.


If demons can come and go at their leasure though, that does raise the question as to why the chaotic evil demons of the lower realms (of which there presumably are many) don't use this more often.

Ie: Why is the world not filled with rampaging demons slaughtering peasants?

Celestial Infernal Bureaucracy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CelestialBureaucracy) is the most likely explanation; the IFCC are limited in the ways they can interfere, and some of those prohibitions likely apply to their peons.

[pendell]

We know there are rules for how fiends can interact with the world. For instance, the IFC cannot enter the world and directly interact with things there Unless they are negotiating a contract (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html). *Imps* can run errands for them on the material plane. They can't.

It's part of the delicate web of agreements -- along with the non-compete clause with the evil gods -- that keeps the prime material plane from being destroyed by extraplanar war.

I don't know whether Sabine is governed by the same laws as the IFCC, or if, like the imps, she is free to wander the world on her own. My intuition, though, says that she has to be assigned and can't simply wander freely. My guess is that at some point in the past Nale negotiated a deal with the unholy powers and part of that negotiation was the assignment of Sabine.

Further details, of course, will be specific to Rich Burlew's world and must be confirmed by Rich himself. I don't think 3.5 mandates this approach, but some sort of common sense limitation exists in all D&D worlds, if the DM has thought about it at all, to prevent the Prime from becoming just another front of the Blood War or the wars between Heaven and Hell.


My *guess*, based on SOD, is that the demons are limited the same way the gods are -- they cannot intervene directly but only through their chosen emissaries. In the case of the gods, it is clerics. In the case of the demons and devils, it is imps and those mortals with whom they have pacted.

ETA: The more I think about it, the more I think succubi are bound as part of a contract and are not able to simply travel as they will. Reason: Why would anyone bother with imps if more powerful beings are available to do the same chores?

That doesn't mean Sabine *can't* travel at will using planar travel. But "can" and "will" are two separate things. She can do so , but she can't do it without breaking the laws and agreements which the extraplanar powers have that keep the world from destruction. There may be consequences to that decision which she would rather not accept. Just as Miko had the power to kill Lord Shojo, but didn't have the power not to Fall as a consequence.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[littlebum2002]

If demons can come and go at their leasure though, that does raise the question as to why the chaotic evil demons of the lower realms (of which there presumably are many) don't use this more often.

Ie: Why is the world not filled with rampaging demons slaughtering peasants?

I would guess that, if that happened, all the creatures from the GOOD planes would do the same thing, and start an all-out war. What would be the point? Better to be evil in more subtler ways

[Chronos]

In the standard D&D rules, no fiend has any inherent ability that would allow for interplanar travel: No Plane Shift, no Gate, no inherent spellcasting ability. The only way they can travel the planes is by either taking class levels in a spellcasting class, or by acquiring appropriate items (just like humans). Most do neither. This probably includes Zz'dtri's daemon: He was able to leave because that's one effect of calling spells, that the called creature is able to leave when the service is completed.

Sabine, however, is an exception to this rule. For whatever reason, Rich decided that he wanted her to be able to use Plane Shift 1/day, and so she can.

[hamishspence]

Sabine's ability to use Plane Shift might be a function of her role as an agent of the IFCC.

EDIT: Same might apply to Qaar as a free-roaming tempter:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html

[Roland Itiative]

Without going into rules discussion, the way Sabine talks when she's banished (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html) seems to imply she's the only one responsible for her own movement between planes. It's not "just summon me again in X hours", it's "don't worry, I'll be back soon". So she either has personal means of planar travel, or the IFCC provides that to her.

Now, if it's the latter, they might decide to temporarily revoke that since there isn't much point for Sabine to go to the material plane without a Linear Guild to manipulate (that is, until they find another shmuck to use in their schemes, at which point Sabine will be asked to seduce them instead of bothering with the dead Nale), and this might start some tension between her and her bosses (which was foreshadowed by her interactions with Quarr, where she put Nale above the IFCC in her list of priorities). Only time till tell.

[Kish]

I was thinking of the Drizzt books where Errtu needed to be summoned to come to the world and find crenshinibon.
Maybe it was just older editions, the story is quite old.
You didn't go back far enough.

Errtu materialized on the Prime Material Plane of his own will in the very first Drizzt book published*. Drizzt killed his mortal vessel, banishing him from the plane for a hundred years. He had to manipulate Drizzt--and not just anyone, specifically the person who had banished him--into inviting him back so as to be able to manifest before the time of his exile was up. If he had simply waited a hundred years (read: If Salvatore had not wanted to reuse an early villain, or if Salvatore had been willing to have a hundred-year time-skip in Drizzt's storyline), he would have become able to move freely between the planes again, just like Sabine can.

*Not the first book chronologically, because Salvatore then wrote prequels to it.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Per the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html) where Durkon cast Holy Word, Sabine is banished. Meaning that for 24 hours she can't return from hell. Qarr was not under the effects of this spell, as he and Malack were behind the trapped door.

[Reddish Mage]

Per the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html) where Durkon cast Holy Word, Sabine is banished. Meaning that for 24 hours she can't return from hell. Qarr was not under the effects of this spell, as he and Malack were behind the trapped door.

That's not the barrier we are discussing. Not every demon can freely roam the material planes or the material plane would be inundated. Even if Sabine can planeshift or hop a ride she may be prohibited. But that's not a function of the Core books as far as I know. What source would we had for limitations on fiendish planeshifting?

[hamishspence]

You didn't go back far enough.

Errtu materialized on the Prime Material Plane of his own will in the very first Drizzt book published*.

His appearance in The Crystal Shard, was after he'd been summoned by an apprentice who'd got his name, and the summoner had messed up:

p98-100

Errtu, a major demon of catastrophic proportions, faintly heard its nane being uttered on the faraway plane. Normally, the great beast would have ignored such a weak call; certainly the summoner hadn't demonstrated any ability of sufficient strength to compel the demon to comply.

Yet Errtu was glad of the fateful call. A few years before, the demon had felt a surge of power on the material plane that it believed would culminate a quest it had undertaken a millennium ago. The demon had suffered through the last few years impatiently, eager for a wizard to open a path for it so that it could come to the material plane to investigate.
...
(demon is summoned by apprentice- and ignores any instructions)
...
The apprentice grew angry. "You will obey me!" he screamed. "I brought you here, and I hold the key to your torment! You shall obey my command, and then I shall release you, mercifully, back to your own filthy world! Now, stand before me!"

The apprentice was defiant. The apprentice was proud.

But Errtu had found an error in the tracing of a rune, a fatal imperfection in a magic circle that could not afford to be almost perfect.

The apprentice was dead.

[Kish]

Ah, my mistake. Been a long time since I read it.

[Red.Tide]

When I read the title of this thread, I could only think of the following quote:

"Why would I save a world I no longer have any stake in? When you left me, I left Earth." - Dr. Manhattan

But on topic, I would be surprised if Sabine were no longer able to plane shift back. Although I am looking forward to seeing both her reaction, and the IFC fiends' reaction to her reaction (they're the villains that we understand the least at this point, IMO).

[TheWombatOfDoom]

That's not the barrier we are discussing. Not every demon can freely roam the material planes or the material plane would be inundated. Even if Sabine can planeshift or hop a ride she may be prohibited. But that's not a function of the Core books as far as I know. What source would we had for limitations on fiendish planeshifting?

Ah!

Hrmm....Hold just a second...

Alright, so my Slayer's Guide to Demons (if you believe such a book is within cannon) says a demon with the level of expertise needed to cast Gate is either on the verge of becoming an arch demon or has already gained that position. Since I assume Sabine to be neither, I have to assume that it's either the IFCC's doing, like Qarr, or perhaps something else we don't yet know about/Rich not caring about D & D rules, which he has said he does, and I don't blame him. Either way, I assume she can return to the abyss on her own, but perhaps the IFCC sends her back?

[Kish]

says a demon with the level of expertise needed to cast Gate
Hold it right there.

She travels between the planes with Plane Shift, not Gate.

[hamishspence]

Given Qaar's surprise at being offered an office by the IFCC, after he plane-shifts down, it's possible that he's had that ability for longer, but they've only just hired him.

He also summons various monsters to harass the Azure City fleet- not something a normal imp can do.

I could see him as being a sorcerer.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Hold it right there.

She travels between the planes with Plane Shift, not Gate.

Ah! Well, it says nothing about Planeshift, though I assume if Sabine had caster levels high enough, she'd be capable of casting them.

[SowZ]

Good point. So was Z's daemon (although he decided to leave once he saw his boss was dead).

There is basically no merit to the idea, in the comic or in D&D, that a summoned creature is dependent on their summoner to create a link between them and the material plane. There is also no evidence to support the idea that Sabine was ever summoned by Nale (or anyone at all). I really have no idea where the OP even came up with this theory, since demons and ghosts operate according to different rules and pretty much have nothing at all in common.

I can see where someone would link the two. In most religions and cultures, the two were usually seen as either the same or coming from the same place.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Given Qaar's surprise at being offered an office by the IFCC, after he plane-shifts down, it's possible that he's had that ability for longer, but they've only just hired him.

He also summons various monsters to harass the Azure City fleet- not something a normal imp can do.

I could see him as being a sorcerer.

The Geekery Thread puts him as a mid-level Sorcerer, in order to cast Charm Monster and getting enough Rays out of Scorching Ray.

[MtlGuy]

If demons can come and go at their leasure though, that does raise the question as to why the chaotic evil demons of the lower realms (of which there presumably are many) don't use this more often.

Ie: Why is the world not filled with rampaging demons slaughtering peasants?

Short answer is "Balance of Power."

Hordes of evil extra-planar creatures invading the world would likely provoke a response from outsiders from good aligned planes of existence.

Just spitballing here. I would guess Sabine is an exception because she is/was Nale's guardian 'devil/demon' in the same way Qarr was Z's familiar. That is they got an invitation of sorts.

I imagine that Sabine will at the very least have a few choice words for Qarr, seeing as how he abandoned Nale when Durkon regained his freewill and executed Z.

[konradknox]

That's quite possible, though Qaar seemed to be able to move between the planes freely, though perhaps he only could because he was Z's familiar.

Originally he was Kubota's familiar. I don't think he was actually anyone's familiar at all. He pretends to be though.

[Kish]

Originally he was Kubota's familiar.
Aristocrats don't have familiars. He was Kubota's servant.

[hamishspence]

I haven't seen anything that suggests Kubota was a spellcaster- Qaar worked with Kubota, but as far as I can tell that's all.

EDIT: swordsaged.

[Bolt-on-headlamps]

Thanks for the replies. I apologize if I used a bad example, so let me clarify: Sabine, in comic #62 says, "Of course! The archfiends sent me to be Nale's concubine and advisor." So, with Nale dead, there is no reason for the archfiends to give Sabine access to the material plane, unless it's for a new assignment.

[SowZ]

Thanks for the replies. I apologize if I used a bad example, so let me clarify: Sabine, in comic #62 says, "Of course! The archfiends sent me to be Nale's concubine and advisor." So, with Nale dead, there is no reason for the archfiends to give Sabine access to the material plane, unless it's for a new assignment.

She can access the material plane of her own power. It is, however, a reasonable speculation that the archfiends, (or IFCC as the case may be,) may now give her an assignment that is not on the material plane. Sabine could still plane shift if she wanted, but she would have no reason to.

[pendell]

Thinking about this ...

remember at the end of book 3, the LG was described as the "pawns" of the IFCC?

Putting that together with their calling in of Vaarsuvius' debt when they did, I think the LG were pawns for one purpose: To force the order to destroy the gate.

Remember Roy's Original plan (lhttp://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html) was to secure the gate, then summon astral devas to guard it.

The LG's intervention prevented that outcome, and forced Roy to destroy the gate. When Vaarsuvius was just about to stop that outcome, The IFCC was sufficiently concerned to call in one of their three markers, sealing the outcome they were hoping for all along.

So Team Linear Guild were pawns of the IFCC -- and like pawns in chess, they were offered up as part of Gate's Gambit. The pawns were sacrificed in pursuit of a larger goal -- the destruction of Girard's gate.

The end was accomplished, at the cost of some pawns. A sad thing, of course, but not one worth getting bent out of shape over or one worth putting forth any effort to bring back the pawns removed from the board. After all, evil has many, many, many pawns to work with.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[KillianHawkeye]

Thinking about this ...

remember at the end of book 3, the LG was described as the "pawns" of the IFCC?

Putting that together with their calling in of Vaarsuvius' debt when they did, I think the LG were pawns for one purpose: To force the order to destroy the gate.

Remember Roy's Original plan (lhttp://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html) was to secure the gate, then summon astral devas to guard it.

The LG's intervention prevented that outcome, and forced Roy to destroy the gate. When Vaarsuvius was just about to stop that outcome, The IFCC was sufficiently concerned to call in one of their three markers, sealing the outcome they were hoping for all along.

So Team Linear Guild were pawns of the IFCC -- and like pawns in chess, they were offered up as part of Gate's Gambit. The pawns were sacrificed in pursuit of a larger goal -- the destruction of Girard's gate.

The end was accomplished, at the cost of some pawns. A sad thing, of course, but not one worth getting bent out of shape over or one worth putting forth any effort to bring back the pawns removed from the board. After all, evil has many, many, many pawns to work with.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Interesting.

We know that the IFCC's stated goal with regards to the material plane is to maintain the conflict between Xykon and the OOTS with neither side being victorious. It is entirely in keeping with that goal to prevent things from ending here at Girard's gate when there is still one more gate for them to fight over. Thus, Girard's gate needed to be destroyed.

We still don't know the full extent of the IFCC's plans for the gates. It seems likely that they want to unleash the Snarl to destroy the Good gods (or possibly ALL the gods), but we don't know how they're intending on doing it. Maybe they want all of the gates destroyed, or maybe they're planning on swooping in and taking control of the last gate. Maybe they think they can hijack Redcloak's ritual.

[137beth]

Ah!

Hrmm....Hold just a second...

Alright, so my Slayer's Guide to Demons (if you believe such a book is within cannon) says a demon with the level of expertise needed to cast Gate is either on the verge of becoming an arch demon or has already gained that position. Since I assume Sabine to be neither, I have to assume that it's either the IFCC's doing, like Qarr, or perhaps something else we don't yet know about/Rich not caring about D & D rules, which he has said he does, and I don't blame him. Either way, I assume she can return to the abyss on her own, but perhaps the IFCC sends her back?
Sabine has Plane Shift, not Gate. A common trend for outsiders is to give "special" outsiders one or two extra spell-like abilities that their species wouldn't normally have. That may be what happened to Sabine.

Given Qaar's surprise at being offered an office by the IFCC, after he plane-shifts down, it's possible that he's had that ability for longer, but they've only just hired him.

He also summons various monsters to harass the Azure City fleet- not something a normal imp can do.

I could see him as being a sorcerer.
Qarr tells Varsuvius that he is a sorcerer. Unfortunately, he probably isn't a high enough level to cast Plane Shift. He might also just be an advanced imp with an extra SLA who also happens to be a sorcerer.


But that's not a function of the Core books as far as I know.
I don't know why you seem to have an obsession with core, considering we've seen lots of non-core 3.5 sources used in-comic so far, and it's using 3.0 epic rules, and we've seen Pathfinder Daemons (rather than yugoloths), and Laurin just used a 2e psionic power...

[Reddish Mage]

I don't know why you seem to have an obsession with core, considering we've seen lots of non-core 3.5 sources used in-comic so far, and it's using 3.0 epic rules, and we've seen Pathfinder Daemons (rather than yugoloths), and Laurin just used a 2e psionic power...

I ask immediately after for what other sources we might have for a limitation of fiendish activity on the material plane. I don't know what you think I was implying.

There is an interesting distinction to make between what appears in Core and what doesn't, especially where there is an explicit difference in treatment (such as alignment tendency of creatures in Eberron, or the Ravenloft treatment of vampires). I am not implying there is an explicit difference here, but it would be interesting if there was mention of a non-intervention pact somewhere in a Core source.

[2.5 cats]

Apologies for being somewhat off topic, but my guess is that Sabine lost interest in Nale the moment he died. While alive he was a powerful, evil person on the rise. Dead he's just another damned soul.

[Kish]

That...wow. You're betting on a remarkable level of "I'm not actually a character, just a kind of evil automaton" from a fairly major character.

[SowZ]

Yeah, I think Sabine has shown many times she sincerely cares for Nale. If she prefers him alive, (as he prefers being alive,) she is more likely to do everything she can to get him raised rather than drop him like a sack of bricks.

[KillianHawkeye]

it's using 3.0 epic rules

How are you sure it's the 3.0 epic and not the 3.5 version? :smallconfused:


we've seen Pathfinder Daemons (rather than yugoloths)

Just curious, but what is your evidence for this distinction? Yugoloths and daemons are the same thing in D&D.

[Roland Itiative]

How are you sure it's the 3.0 epic and not the 3.5 version? :smallconfused:
Do 3.5 Epic rules even exist? The Epic Level Handbook is 3.0, and I don't think they ever cared for creating an updated version. Which just means nothing changed, so the 3.0 version technically is the 3.5 version too, I guess.

And I don't think the idea of Sabine just forgetting Nale makes much sense. If her interest in him was so fleeting, she would have no reason to create tension in her job by discussing with Qarr over it.

[Snails]

Short answer is "Balance of Power."

Hordes of evil extra-planar creatures invading the world would likely provoke a response from outsiders from good aligned planes of existence.

The longer answer is Narrative Anthropomorphic Principle.

Stories worthy of being told can only exist where certain kinds of ambiguities and uncertainties exist. A grand epic tale of intrigue between treacherous devils that takes place entirely on the 6th level of Hell is a tough sell.

Settings that so happen to have Balance of Power offer many interesting ambiguities for an ambitious storyteller.

Sometimes people protest that Balance of Power seems "unlikely" given certain assumptions about the metaphysics of the multiverse. Well, it just does not matter if it is unlikely. Because, even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that the Giant so happened to agree that 99.99999999% of the multiverse lacked any semblance of Balance of Power, where exactly do you think the grand tales will be told? Somewhere in that 0.00000001% obviously. Does luck have anything to do with it?

So in the OotSverse, we have Balance of Power for a sufficient number of centuries that we have interesting histories, and uncertainty and doubt about the future. That is why the Snarl is actually interesting, because business as usual for the last eon may not predict the nature of the future.

[Knight.Anon]

I think once summoned fiends can come and go as they want, as long as those terms were left open in whatever agreement brought them topside.

If a fiend is killed on the Prime Material they are banished from the mortal realm for a period of time which can be decades to centuries. If they are killed on their home plane then its over for them.

I'm not sure if the pit fiend that V stoned is trapped immobile and unaware on the prime material or is practicing his card game back in the Abyss.

Of course rules are also made to be broken, but actions also have consequences. It balances out. Most fiends aren't willing to risk pissing off the other fiends, gods, mortals, and celestials. I'm sure a fiendish Nale wouldn't be bothered by that though.

[Bolt-on-headlamps]

She can access the material plane of her own power. It is, however, a reasonable speculation that the archfiends, (or IFCC as the case may be,) may now give her an assignment that is not on the material plane. Sabine could still plane shift if she wanted, but she would have no reason to.

In comic #380, she seems to have restrictions on her Plane Shift power, which leads me to believe it was granted by the IFCC/Archfiends, rather than inherent to her.

[David Argall]

Thinking about this ...

remember at the end of book 3, the LG was described as the "pawns" of the IFCC?

Putting that together with their calling in of Vaarsuvius' debt when they did, I think the LG were pawns for one purpose: To force the order to destroy the gate.

The trouble here is that they seem to be sacrificing their Queen, and getting a pawn or two for it, pawns that were likely to be captured anyway.
They are supposed to be getting something big. Something that makes killing hundreds of dragons a trivial task. Where is there any sign they are achieving such a goal?
We could consider capturing the last gate a way to justify such a cost, but how are they to manage that? Their chief agent was Nale, who is now dead. How do they manage it?

[thereaper]

Given that we have no idea what their goal actually is or just how many other pawns they have, we can't really say they've lost a queen. Nale may well be a pawn.

[pendell]

The trouble here is that they seem to be sacrificing their Queen, and getting a pawn or two for it, pawns that were likely to be captured anyway.
They are supposed to be getting something big. Something that makes killing hundreds of dragons a trivial task. Where is there any sign they are achieving such a goal?
We could consider capturing the last gate a way to justify such a cost, but how are they to manage that? Their chief agent was Nale, who is now dead. How do they manage it?

What thereaper said. Remember Sabine's comments on "pawns on every side." It may be Nale's importance is far less than we've been led to believe. Based on his power level and tactical judgement, I wouldn't rate him higher than about a knight. He's not a mook by any means, but he never was in the running with someone like Xykon or Tarquin or Redcloak.

At any rate -- who says the IFCC plans to *capture* the gates at all?

We know they don't intend to defend them. They just forced the destruction of Girard's gate.

Do they want to capture the last one? Or do they mean to destroy them *all*, and destroy this world entirely? Perhaps to repopulate it only with evil creatures?

Or is there some other use the last gate can be put to than the Dark One's ritual?

And is there something they know about the rift and the world in it that we don't know yet.

Insufficient data. What I do have enough data is: I think the IFCC are just as aware of the LG's weaknesses as we are, and I don't see any sadness among them that Nale's team was wiped out. I think the LG served it's purpose -- both the purpose of the IFCC and of the story. That purpose, again, was to force the destruction of Girard's gate.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[David Argall]

It may be ... than we've been led to believe.
At any rate -- who says ...?

Do they want to ... Or do they mean to ... Perhaps to...

Or is there some other ...

And is there something ... that we don't know yet.

Insufficient data. I think...
For any given set of non-finite facts, we can imagine a larger set of "facts" that completely change the meaning of those we know, including making them the exact opposite. So such baseless speculation has to be rejected or we simply can't reach even the most tentative conclusion.



the LG served it's purpose -- both the purpose of the IFCC and of the story. That purpose, again, was to force the destruction of Girard's gate.

But again, why would they go to such absurd lengths to achieve such a minor and easily achieved goal? [Roy wanted to destroy it. So did Tarquin {If we trust his word, not a safe thing}, and the results of previous struggles over gates have destroyed gates.] They are taking time and resources away from projects we know to be important to them. Why are they spending dollars when they are not even getting dimes?

[Tris]

But again, why would they go to such absurd lengths to achieve such a minor and easily achieved goal? [Roy wanted to destroy it. So did Tarquin {If we trust his word, not a safe thing}, and the results of previous struggles over gates have destroyed gates.] They are taking time and resources away from projects we know to be important to them. Why are they spending dollars when they are not even getting dimes?

Roy wasn't going to destroy it until the situation was looking bad.

[137beth]

Do 3.5 Epic rules even exist? The Epic Level Handbook is 3.0, and I don't think they ever cared for creating an updated version. Which just means nothing changed, so the 3.0 version technically is the 3.5 version too, I guess.

And I don't think the idea of Sabine just forgetting Nale makes much sense. If her interest in him was so fleeting, she would have no reason to create tension in her job by discussing with Qarr over it.

Yea, Epic Spellcasting was never updated to 3.5.

Anyways, as to the Argallese debate:
I highly doubt that Nale was their most important agent. Remember, they have pawns on every team (according to Sabine), and, interestingly enough the explicitly refer to Nale as a pawn. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)

[Kish]

And a pawn who is useful because he's a complete moron.

[pendell]

For any given set of non-finite facts, we can imagine a larger set of "facts" that completely change the meaning of those we know, including making them the exact opposite. So such baseless speculation has to be rejected or we simply can't reach even the most tentative conclusion.


Maybe so, but it's dangerous to assume too much beyond the clear and indisputable logical consequences of known facts. The further afield we speculate without concrete information, the more likely we are to diverge totally from reality, until we start asking each other absurd questions like "How many angels dance on the head of a pin?" It's something I see every day in my job debugging computer programs.

The single biggest error I make on a daily basis is prematurely favoring a hypothesis based on limited facts , and allowing it to become a prejudice, so that every new bit of evidence is unconsciously harmonized with my pet theory ... right up until the point on bashing my head through the monitor screaming "WHY DOESN'T THIS WORK?"

So if the facts support more than one possible conclusion, I will raise those possibilities and not dismiss them in the absence of concrete evidence that they are false.

The facts I presented bear more than one conclusion; we have insufficient evidence at this time to clearly know the IFCC's motivations and plans. Therefore I will raise objections to the idea that we do, because I don't want to prematurely leap to a wrong hypothesis which I can't be dissuaded from until the Giant once again surprises me.

We don't have information yet. So the correct answer is: Collect more data, in the form of additional strips.





But again, why would they go to such absurd lengths to achieve such a minor and easily achieved goal?


At the time the IFCC grabbed V, "destroying Girard's gate" was not an easily achieved goal. It was defended by the descendents of an epic level illusionist and his clan inside a fortress which they had built for generations for the express specific purpose of protecting that very gate. Girard's pyramids is one of the most heavily defended strongpoints in the entire OOTSworld.

I don't think they grabbed V with the specific idea "V will attempt to stop the destruction of the gate, and we will stop him at this precise time." Instead, they are following a general strategy which somehow involves the gates. To accomplish this goal, rather than bet on any one team, they are hedging their bets by putting as many actors as possible on ALL the teams.

Then, once they have those levers in position, they calmly and patiently wait until some set of events means their levers, normally useless, suddenly become decisive.

Qarr was one such lever on Team LG. Vaarsuvius was another.

Events in the pyramid moved very quickly. Xykon and Redcloak were coming. Team LG was on the way. Team Tarquin and his army were nearby also. There were four separate teams converging on the pyramid and only one of them was interested in destroying the gate.

The way I see it, IFCC did everything they could to ensure OOTS' success. Part of that was Qarr refusing to help Malack find his way through the maze. When OOTS had at last succeeded after so much difficulty, Team IFCC was so concerned about the outcome that they tipped their hand prematurely and called in one of their three Vaarsuvius markers to ensure the gates' destruction.

So it was NOT an easily achieved goal. The only thing that made it remotely easy was that Vaarsuvius inadvertently killed off all the defenders. Even then, OOTS was never more than a step or two ahead of the other teams. But OOTS succeeded in its goals -- and so did the IFC, thanks to a well-timed intervention. An intervention I suspect they had not predicted, but had simply been prepared for when the opportunity presents itself.

And for this, they got the destruction of one of the five cornerstones of reality which would NOT have happened if they hadn't made their well-timed investment. It's obvious THEY think it has paid off, even if tipping off Vaarsuvius means losing any possibility of any meaningful return from the other two markers.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Reddish Mage]

But again, why would they go to such absurd lengths to achieve such a minor and easily achieved goal? [Roy wanted to destroy it. So did Tarquin {If we trust his word, not a safe thing}, and the results of previous struggles over gates have destroyed gates.] They are taking time and resources away from projects we know to be important to them. Why are they spending dollars when they are not even getting dimes?




So it was NOT an easily achieved goal. The only thing that made it remotely easy was that Vaarsuvius inadvertently killed off all the defenders. Even then, OOTS was never more than a step or two ahead of the other teams. But OOTS succeeded in its goals -- and so did the IFC, thanks to a well-timed intervention. An intervention I suspect they had not predicted, but had simply been prepared for when the opportunity presents itself.

And for this, they got the destruction of one of the five cornerstones of reality which would NOT have happened if they hadn't made their well-timed investment. It's obvious THEY think it has paid off, even if tipping off Vaarsuvius means losing any possibility of any meaningful return from the other two markers.

Brian, I'm not sure what exactly you are thinking they lost by tipping off V (you mean the other gates?).

I'm not sure if anyone want to really be arguing that the IFCCs plans have already come to fruition. Whatever is going to happen, it will clearly deliver so much power to the IFCC or cause so much destruction that a massacre of good dragons x5 the size of the black ones that V killed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) will be trivial.