Barbarian vs. Wizard: Settling a Gentleman's Argument [Pathfinder] [Archive]

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-21, 11:51 AM

So a friend of mine that I made over the course of recruiting for a game I'm currently running doesn't really see eye to eye on me when it comes to the gap in utility, power and all around versatile competence of spell using classes compared to mundane classes. I've been "raised" on the discussions of this subforum in particular since I first joined the Playground, while he considers anyone saying there's a disparity between casters and non-casters is making a large overstatement of fact and is mistaken at looking at the relationship between the two. He even goes on to claim that any Barbarian he could build would be a nightmare and a potential wrecker of an equal level Wizard 9 times out of 10.

Instead of continuing our arguing between one another or showing each other all the threads we have that prove out stand point correct, we decided to do a friendly duel between a Barbarian built by himself against any Wizard I could build. Now, I'm in no way slow of mind, but I've been out of practice on optimization concerning Tier 1s for quite some time now and never really looked into it for Pathfinder. As such, I'd hate for my own rustiness to misrepresent the stand point I'm trying to get across (I was planning some things like binding powerful devils, sneaking them in with invisibility and having them gang up on his Barbarian while I Overland Flight above his head and telekinesis tripping him regularly before busting out 9th level scrolls and such) and would beseech the more well-practiced/well informed individuals of this subforum to try and help me in my attempt.

The parameters of the duel are as such:

The duel takes place in an open air arena that is 500 feet by 500 feet with no particular features beyond that.
The combatants are made aware that they're going into this one week in advance and have that week to prepare. They have only general knowledge about their opponent.
The combatants begin 60 feet apart from one another.
The combatants have normal wealth by level and a 25 point buy.
All official Paizo material is usable here. No Third party material or grand fathered material.
The universe is assumed to work under strict RAW.
The combatants are 15th level

I would prefer not to have to dig into really broken cheese if necessary, but shutting him down hard may just drive home that there is a gap.

Thank you in advance for any help and advice.

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-21, 12:03 PM

I would suggest flight of the overland variety and a heavy dispel barrage to start off. First lead with greater invisibility and move out of his range of see invisible, possibly though hopping away with greater teleport.

Now start messing with him. Summons to wear him out, followed by negative levels to weaken him. Don't kill him, just turn him into a mewing kitten.

Once he is crippled, hurt, exhausted, and near zero HP, hit him with magic missile until he dies.

Good ideas

- Wall of Lava - full round action to get through, minimum.
- Reverse gravity - kill his flight with a dispel, then hold him up in the air at your mercy.
- Simulcrum - Make 20 or so copies of him for him to fight. It also gets you access to his build information. The spell lasts until killed, so you can also make some dragons or other powerful creatures to hold him off. Store them in a bag of holding. In fact, make a few of yourself to act as backup spellcasters.
- Blood money - You pay for those simulcrum somehow right?

Namfuak

2013-08-21, 12:10 PM

I think an important question to ask is how much of each side's build can actually be set up to counter the other. Knowing about your opponent a week in advance is great, but how much (he especially) can do with that knowledge is greatly dependent on whether the character existed before that week or if both sides pop into existence at the beginning of the week with no gear, levels, or feats and chooses how to allocate all those things over the week. If I were specifically building against the wizard, I'd probably pick up a lot of scrolls and UMD ranks, but it isn't realistic to think a normal barbarian would do that.

Norin

2013-08-21, 12:10 PM

If he wins initiative, he could be a painful experience. Start with celerity if you do not have a boosted initiative already.

Then take away most of his edge. Deny him charging, calm his emotions, deny him jumping, lock him down, etc. Then debuff him and humiliate him.

Would be fun to dominate him too and have him do something silly while you laugh and point.

Urpriest

2013-08-21, 12:16 PM

If he wins initiative, he could be a painful experience. Start with celerity if you do not have a boosted initiative already.

Celerity isn't available, since this is PF.

Since he starts within 60 feet and is 15th level, he can charge you if he wins initiative. Don't let him win initiative. Get a Compsognathus familiar, spend a trait to get +2 Initiative, and in general get every boost you can.

Since you get prep time, you can indeed bind things. You're already high enough level to use planar binding for free wishes, so you could have +5 Inherent to every stat for instance. Ask what happens if you bind yourself some allies: do they appear in the arena as well? Where do they start out?

Studoku

2013-08-21, 12:19 PM

Interesting. Completely pointless of course- D&D is not a PVP game and treating it as such proves nothing about class balance. I doubt you'd be able to convince the barbarian to make a character for a reasonable test though.

What are the rules on pre-buffing/summoning? I'm interpreting that you can go into this with whatever you like but you might want to get this clarified.

The biggest issue you have is that he's trying to engineer the one situation where a barbarian can win this- within charge range with you on the ground and ideally unbuffed. His plan is win initiative, charge and either drop you in one round or grapple you.

Scrying is another thing you should sort out. Does that one week to prepare let you scry on your opponent and find out what immunities he's got covered? You can't afford to do something that won't work on him and let him melee you.

There are a few ways to deal with this. The first is to ensure you win initiative and drop him in one round. Disabling him with a single spell is trivial for a 15th level Wizard- you have 8th level spells. Just make sure he's not immune to it. If you can't scry, assume he has access to true seeing, freedom of movement, flight, protection from evil and anything else obvious.

The second is to be immune to his attacks. Use flight, invisibility and any buff spells so he can't hurt you. Kill him with anything you like.

Finally, you could buff your melee with everything you can think of, polymorph into something scary, summon a couple of buddies and melee him to death. This option is my favourite because you get to be better than him at his own role.

That's my two cents anyway. If you want specific build advice, I'm sure I've been ninjaed by most of giantitp by now.

Eldan

2013-08-21, 12:24 PM

Well, you have a week. Is there a Pathfinder equivalent to Planar binding? Because if yes, you can just cast that half a dozen times each day for a week and bind a good forty outsiders for that combat.

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-21, 12:25 PM

Asrrin

2013-08-21, 12:47 PM

Another option for winning initiative is

Contingency, set to go off at the start of combat. It lasts days per level, and works up to 5th level spells at CL15. At CL18 you can do 6th level spells. I suggest a teleport effect of some kind to go off if he gets within 30 or so feet of you, but I am sure that you can come up with 30 or 40 other contingencies to happen. Cast them before the combat day, and laugh as he sets off your defenses.

Yup. If you don't have Celerity, Contingency works just as well. Even if you lose initiative he will never get close enough to you to do any harm.

I would also remember to have a tinfoil hat ready in case he tries to Anti-magic you. Shrink a cone on your head, lose LoE when it is suppressed inside the AMF, and teleport away.

Urpriest

2013-08-21, 12:54 PM

Contingency is definitely important.

I have just realized that while the combatants are supposed to start 60 feet apart, they don't need to start on the ground. It's going to be pretty easy for a 15th level barbarian to get flight, but he's less likely to be able to burrow. I'd make sure to start underground, using one of the various available means at your level to do so.

Norin

2013-08-21, 12:58 PM

Oops, sorry. I should probably refrain from commenting in pf threads.

tyckspoon

2013-08-21, 01:28 PM

Important but not yet defined parameter: Is pre-buffing allowed? If so, what kind? Will there be a defined buffing round in the combat itself, or does it have to be effects you could reasonably have cast beforehand and carried over into the fight? What duration effect counts toward this?

..not that it matters *too* much, because the only buff you really need is a good Contingency. That'll win you as many rounds as you want to set up for however you decide you want to put the Barbarian down (for high level fights, I like Maze followed by throwing a Prismatic Wall/Wall of Fire/Black Tentacles/any other damaging persistent effects you can find on top of the spot your victim was standing on. Mind, the Prismatic might hedge out all the other ones on that particular spot.. but it's the favored one anyway, because it has a duration longer than the Maze so you don't have to try and predict when the target will come back.)

Karoht

2013-08-21, 01:49 PM

Walk in with Greater Invisibility up.
Cast Project Image.
Cast Meld with Stone (the floor, if possible), transfer your consciousness to the Image. Cast Mirror Image on the Image (you can totally do that, says so in Project Image).

Dance around with the Project Image. Try and stab the Barbarian with a rusty dagger, just because. Then start firing spells. Try to burn all your level 1 spells first, then your 2nd and so forth (but save at least one Mirror Image). Bonus points if you burn most of them on Summon Monster spells, but squeeze some magic missiles in there for kicks.

When he can't locate you, never mind harm you, you can just keep using the image to keep spewing spells at him at whatever pace you chose.

Make sure to tell him that he can concede at any time he likes. Maybe even be a bit of a braggart, and say that if he can hit you, once, you'll concede.
He'll smash your Mirror Images on your Image for a while. Eventually he'll hit the Image and... nothing. He might figure out that it's an illusion, he might even realize that he's been fighting an illusion the entire time. He'll have no means of detecting you, he can't even get rid of the illusion without a Dispel Magic. In the event he has True Seeing somehow, the Image isn't affected, it doesn't see through solid stone to find you, and you can just Dispel away the True Seeing or the item that confers it to him.

Now, Project Image lasts for 1 round/level, you have 15 rounds before you have to cast another Project Image. Save a Stinking Cloud or Solid Fog for that time, cast the cloud/fog a round or two before the Project Image ends.

If you want to be really cheeky and skip the Project Image, get a scroll or two of Delay Poison and either Fogcutting Lenses or a Goz Mask (both will allow you to see through Fog, Smoke, and others). Cast a Stinking Cloud and stand in it if you have the Delay Poison up. Cast any fog cloud you want and stand in it. Well, hover, so that things like Tremorsense won't work. If he took Blindsense/Blindfighting he MIGHT be able to hit you. Be careful. Always have a Mirror Image active on yourself if possible.

The advice to Burrow is solid. Burrow/Earthglide is easily accomplished with things like Elemental Body. Heck, you probably want Elemental Body in the event he finds a way to get to you. Being crit immune is always nice, among other perks.

Have fun, take your time. Play and goof off a bit while you have the advantage, if the advantage is broken somehow, just shut him down. Be a gracious winner, offer him best out of 3 maybe?

Segev

2013-08-21, 01:49 PM

I will note that "When the duel begins" is a perfectly valid trigger for a Contingency, in case you feel the need to do something pre-emptive to give you time for your init to come around.

Given the week of prep, do you have access to the field? If so, take the burrow-related advice and create a hidden chamber underground and have your Contingency Teleport you there.

Mage's Magnificent Mansion can provide you a safe place to retreat to that he can't touch...provided you can get it cast and retreat into it. You need at least a standard and a move action to do so.

Check the planar binding spells to see if those forbid the Outsiders from using their own teleportation-type powers. That can solve your problem handily for making sure they're available. A simple Telepathic Bond with even one of them who passes word when they're needed would get them there.

As a particularly nasty strategy, provided you can be sure he won't be immune to magic: Have your Contingency be "just prior to incapacitation," and have it cast Magic Jar. This puts your soul into a gem (which you can have hidden nearby). He's likely killed you by now, but you're still active despite your corpse. Magic Jar isn't Mind-Affecting, but it is possession. Make sure he has no Protection from Evil (or the like) in place. Spend a Limited Wish to penalize the save against this particular spell.

Then possess him. While in his body, use a Wish to ressurect your own, if needs be. Then coup-de-grace him with his own physical stats. Or order your Planar Bound minions to do so while you let them. Hop back into your own body, safe and sound.

The key to this one is to have plenty of contingency plans; I believe PF Contingency is still limited to one active at a time, so you can't rely on possessing him to work.

Your familiar is a resource to rely on, here; you can have it hold touch spells for you. Make it hold one that will turn it into something that can cast spells (or stuff spells into it via Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability). The goal is to have it be an emergency body for you to possess if the Barbarian manages to one-shot you before your first action and you got Contingent Magic Jar'd.

Use your Familiar's body to do whatever you need to to get your planar minions in, and then start body hopping between them to use your own magics on the barbarian while the remaining ones do horrible nasty things in melee or through their own magical abilities.

At some point, Wish your body back to health, but you're honestly not concerned with its well-being.

...wait. Screw Contingency for the Magic Jar. Go ahead and use it to set up your preferred distance for battle so you have room to play "normally" at first.

Use Magic Jar before you ever go into the fight. Either use it on one of your bound planar minions or pay a fighter with tons of hp to be a hireling and loan you his body. Or, if you're willing to go evil, Dominate one. If you have some conscience, plan to Wish him alive again and pay him for his trouble if his body gets pasted. Keep your body (and at least one well-instructed planar minion) in a portable hole on your person.

As I said, fight normally here; contingency to teleport out of the way and "re-start" the fight on your terms, and work on getting your minions in, and do whatever else you need to. If you die in the minion's body, you've already got Magic Jar up and running. You'll just be back in it, and possess somebody else. If you think you've gotten him stripped of auto-defenses, try him. If not, that's what your familiar and the spare planar minion are for.

Don't be afraid to use Mage's Disjunction on him at least twice. You're not after the loot, here, and at 20th CL, you have a range of 75 ft. from which you can cast it to its center. As long as you place its center within 40 ft. of him, he's in it and all magic on him and all his magic items are hit. If he's in an AMF, that's his best bet, and in that case, he's already out any magic items and buffs.

In fact, if he's in an AMF, use Forcecage around him. It allows a Ref save in PF, so you might need to try a couple of times, but it will contain him. I do like the "tinfoil hat" idea somebody else suggested, just in case he comes at YOU with one. Regardless, once he's in a Forcecage (barred version, of course), just open a Gate to the paraelemental plane of magma over his head and pour it right in. (There are likely other ways to achieve similar effective non-magical highly-damaging stuff falling on him; be creative!)

But yeah. Between a prepared Magic Jar with plenty of spare bodies to borrow, a Contingency to teleport you to a safe spot as soon as the fight starts, a tinfoil hat to protect against anti-magic tricks, Mage's Magnificent Mansion to provide you a 100% safe place to which to retreat while you let minions handle him (if needs be), and Mage's Disjunction to screw over any magical preparation HE has set up...

You should be pretty solid. His options are relatively limited, but don't assume he won't try weird things that Barbarians usually can't do. He will likely be heavily reliant on external aid and magic items to counter things. He will definitely have every magical protection he can think of, from Protection Against [Alignment] to Death Ward to (possibly) Mind Blank items.

Make sure you have Arcane Sight up; that should help you ID what you need to tear down on him. Don't rely on illusions; he almost certainly has True Seeing. On the other hand, if you Disjoin his buffs, you could start pulling them out at your leisure. If he lacks True Seeing, do not underestimate the value of the humble Mirror Image!

But yeah. I think you've got this. He gave you a week to prepare.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-21, 01:57 PM

But yeah. I think you've got this. He gave you a week to prepare.

I'll get answers as soon as I can to some of the questions here, but I just want to mention that I'm the one who picked all the parameters and let him choose what level we were at.

He picked 15 "for giggles" and seemingly for my benefit.

Segev

2013-08-21, 02:02 PM

I somehow missed you were level 15. That does limit the Gate and Wish options I mentioned; sorry about that.

I assure you, lowering the level is NEVER to the benefit of the wizard in a fight between a wizard and a martial class.

But! 8th level spells still gives you tons of room for shenanigans with Magic Jar, Planar Binding, Contingency, Teleport, Maze (I always forget about Maze, but it's going to force him to drop out of Rage to even attempt to escape it)...

I'd say "good luck," but honestly, unless you overlook some brilliant trick he comes up with, you won't need it.

Thrice Dead Cat

2013-08-21, 02:17 PM

This is tangental, but have you considered running a same game test where the wizard and barbarian must each trudge through a dungeon to some predefined goal?

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-21, 02:28 PM

This is tangental, but have you considered running a same game test where the wizard and barbarian must each trudge through a dungeon to some predefined goal?

See, the thing is, he admits that magic grants them (in his own words): "tons of multi-faceted usability and versatility". But he denies that there is a disparity between casters and non-casters.

So the Wizard trudging through a dungeon better would prove nothing.

Eldan

2013-08-21, 02:32 PM

So, wait. "Yes, they are more versatile and useful, but there is no disparity?"

How does he define disparity, then?

Arc_knight25

2013-08-21, 02:33 PM

For one of your days prepare a bunch of Explosive Runes. Bring the stackful of paper to the arena and let them fly. If he reads one Boom. Just because you can.

If you can swing it get him fatigued or Exausted. Say goodbye to charges.

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-21, 02:36 PM

Or summon a creature that can read, like an imp, hand it the book and have it fly over to him and read the first page.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-21, 02:46 PM

So, wait. "Yes, they are more versatile and useful, but there is no disparity?"

How does he define disparity, then?

He defines it the normal way. He just doesn't believe that a disparity exists in the first place.

I think I simply disagree caster point, because I have seen a lot of mundane pathfinder builds that are pretty crazy. I've seen an undying rage monster, a ranger with two or three levels in alchemist became insanely powerful, a samurai drop 600 damage in one attack, and a butterfly sting rogue consistently roll 3-4 crits each attack. I'm not saying that a fighter is automatically equal to a wizard (it's more like a 10:1 ratio), but I think that given a chance most classes can be optimized in such a way that they consistently blow mages out of the water. Take a barbarian for example: their spell sunder/spell breaker build can drop some serious punishment on any casters and with the proper inclusion of rage cycling he is really bad news.

And that's why.

Segev

2013-08-21, 02:49 PM

You can likely afford a Mirror of Mental Prowess. An alternative to a contingent teleport would be a contingent Telekinesis, used on you. What you do is set up your Mirror to scry on the very spot you're going to be standing when the fight starts, portal open. The Contingent TK then Bull Rushes you into it. Set it up so that it either is there for him to charge through (in which case you want all your planar buddies standing there with Readied actions to attack him as soon as he comes through), or tilted to the side so he can't actually make a charge. Then redirect its scrying sensor to someplace else and follow other tactical advice already given.

You can also use the Mirror as your way-in for the planars.

This is a very expensive option, though, so study the item closely. ...and now that I've typed all this, I'm not even sure if it was ported into PF.

Studoku

2013-08-21, 03:11 PM

For one of your days prepare a bunch of Explosive Runes. Bring the stackful of paper to the arena and let them fly. If he reads one Boom. Just because you can.
Barbarian. Illiteracy is a class feature.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-21, 03:19 PM

Barbarian. Illiteracy is a class feature.

Not in Pathfinder.

Segev

2013-08-21, 03:22 PM

Barbarian. Illiteracy is a class feature.

Scrolls of Maximized Summon Monster IV can call 5 small air elementals per casting. Give each one a sheet to read and have them fly up next to him to read it. This can be done from the far side of your Magnificent Mansion's threshold or your Mirror of Mental Prowess's portal.

Arguably, "reading" takes less than a DC 10 skill check, so Unseen Servants can do it, too. Empty a Wand of Unseen Servant - it's 750 gp, and each will last for an hour - a little before the combat starts, and send THEM to read their sheets simultaneously while standing next to him. Even if only one can occupy a square, that's 48d6 force damage per round for 6 rounds, and another 12d6 on the last round. No save.

Eldariel

2013-08-21, 04:25 PM

Basic PF Wizard (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=490438) I threw together. Level 11 but easy to extrapolate. Fight I played with her (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14459116), if interested. Few basic tricks though of course Psychic Reformation is not available for the Familiar unless you use Psionics Unleashed (it's just as well, your familiar can still UMD any arcane Wands).

Big GMW'd swords + telekinesis is a funny form of attack. Many more straightforward options exist, of course (level 15 = CL 20 so +5/+5 swords), with SoDs and such. And Fogs still rock. As a bonus, Summon Monster VI can summon Shadow Demons which are incorporeal and have Telekinesis at will. PF Summon Monsters in general are a serious step up in power from 3.5 versions and they're pretty much always fight-changing. Hell, you can even get healers and stuff with them, and pretty good ones at that.

Occasional Sage

2013-08-21, 06:15 PM

He defines it the normal way. He just doesn't believe that a disparity exists in the first place.

And that's why.

But that's only combat, and damage output within it. Most (99+%?) of those who acknowledge tier-validity will admit that melee in either system can pump out huge damage numbers; the problem with low-tier classes is ALL THE REST OF THE TIME!

Spuddles

2013-08-21, 07:34 PM

Use divination spells to figure out exactly what and who this barbarian is. Send a simulacrum to fight him, to discern his tactics.

Use the Blood Money spell to basically get as much gold as you want. You could probably take him out before the arena battle with a simulacrum.

When he protests, smile knowingly and inform him that you are a goddamn wizard and he is just a guy with stick.

Well, you have a week. Is there a Pathfinder equivalent to Planar binding? Because if yes, you can just cast that half a dozen times each day for a week and bind a good forty outsiders for that combat.

Get allies with teleport as an SLA so as soon as you use your rary's telepathic bond with them, 40 outsiders arrive, buffed, and ready to shred.

GoodbyeSoberDay

2013-08-21, 07:43 PM

13_CBS

2013-08-21, 09:28 PM

But that's only combat, and damage output within it. Most (99+%?) of those who acknowledge tier-validity will admit that melee in either system can pump out huge damage numbers; the problem with low-tier classes is ALL THE REST OF THE TIME!

To the Barbarian player's credit, the nature of D&D games at his table could be such that most of the relevant stuff going on IS straight forward combat. If the campaigns at Tanuki's tables don't have as much in the way of trap-finding, diplomacizing, or other non-combat challenges (or are structured so that spells somehow cannot contribute), then the Wizard's supreme flexibility could be nullified.

Either that, or perhaps the Barbarian player only cares about combat and largely ignores non-combat encounters.

Qwertystop

2013-08-21, 09:45 PM

You're a high level wizard with relatively favorable conditions in a duel. You should be able to win with one or more of the various tactics listed above. Therefore, the most important advice you can have is...

Make sure your win is considered entirely valid. To do that, get a knowledgeable GM/Referee who is indifferent to your disagreement to run the duel. Before doing any dirty trick, pass it by him first. Compensate him with food, beer, etc.

Yeah, this is critical. Anything even slightly away from exactly what it says (without going into crazy stuff that seems like it wouldn't say that if it'd been proofread), if unapproved, gives a good chance for him to say it doesn't count.

Will you put a log here?

Jack_Simth

2013-08-21, 09:49 PM

Walk in with Greater Invisibility up.
Cast Project Image.
Cast Meld with Stone (the floor, if possible), transfer your consciousness to the Image.Problem here: per The Spell (http://paizo.com/prd/spells/projectImage.html), there's a very annoying clause at the end:
You must maintain line of effect to the projected image at all times. If your line of effect is obstructed, the spell ends. If you use dimension door, teleport, plane shift, or a similar spell that breaks your line of effect, even momentarily, the spell ends.

So when you cast Meld with Stone, the Image goes away.

But there's a zillion and one tricks you can do anyway. There is a pretty high likelihood that your opponent will be doing a build from a guide - likely either an antimagic build, an 'invulnerable' build, or some form of king of smack.

So:
1) Assume your magic can't affect him directly.
2) Assume he won't go down to direct damage while he continues to rage.
3) Assume that if he actually connects, you're dead.

So I'd suggest getting up off of the battlefield, using metamagic'd Dispells to take out his equipment (as that's where he'll get flight, see invisibility, and similar), and wear him out with Summons.

And, of course, a Contingency that gets you out of harms way if he wins initiative. Dimension Door maximum range straight up is a favourite (use a Ring of Featherfall if that's the only spell you can have up pre-cast).

grarrrg

2013-08-21, 10:05 PM

Lots of advice on the "pro wizard" side, not a lot on the "what can the Barbarian do" side.

Assume he WILL Rage Cycle. 1/Rage powers CAN be used on a 1/turn basis.

Assume that killing him through sheer damage will take a while.

Be aware of Superstition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/superstition-ex), this will give him +5 to all Saves. Human Favored bonus can add +1/3 per level to this, making it +10 to all Saves.
Combined with Eater of Magic to get auto-rerolls, this WILL be a problem.
You can attempt to counter with massive DC boosting, but are probably better off just avoiding spells that allow a save in the first place.

There are a few Races that can get Spell Resistance (Dwarf comes to mind, also meshes well with Barbarian), usually 5+HD, possibly higher. With only 5+HD, that's still a 1/5 chance of failure.

He probably expects you to Fly.
He may have a NON-magical means to Fly as well.
Beware of Archer/Ranged Barbarians, he may be built for Ranged damage to counter Flight and such.

As far as going first, Divination School (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination) Wizard will go a LONG ways towards fixing things in your favor. Level 15 means a +7 to Initiative.

Level 15 is the minimum needed for Spell Perfection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection), pick your favorite spell, pick your favorite metamagic, go to town.
Quickened Summon Monster V every round maybe?
Free Echoing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/echoing-spell-metamagic) spells maybe?

EDIT: stupid Jack beat me to half of these...I'll show him...oh, I'll show him...

anacalgion

2013-08-21, 10:13 PM

1)Polymorph Any Object yourself into a black hole.
2)Consume the entire planet.
3)Let PaO run out.
4)You win.

PlusSixPelican

2013-08-21, 10:21 PM

Get Init around as high as you can. Have True Sight up for discerning obstacles.

I might be simplifying these, and not taking into account nine layers of buttsaving. However, you're not fighting Conan the Barbarian, you're facing an overconfident jock in a furry thong. :3

Now here's some plans;
#1)
Contingency a D-Door for if they win Init (ie get within ten feet). While falling (and covering yourself with a Displacement and a Feather Fall (falling from that high takes rounds, Displacement for taste, you can Quicken Feather Fall if you want to save time), have some fun throwing Disintegrates, Summons, or any number of damage spells down at them.

If you win Initiative, use a Reach Spell (Metamagic feat) Plane Shift, send 'em to the Elemental Plane of Fire. Barbarian Barbecue. If they're immune to fire, send 'em to the Elemental Plane of Water for drowning, or the Negative Energy Plane for being torn apart.

#2)
Contingency a Prismatic Wall if they win Init (ie get within ten feet). While they taste the rainbow, fly waaay up out of range with whatever means of flight you have.

If you win Initiative, Disintegrate. Should kill 'em.

#3)
Contingency a Magic Jar and take over their body, if you win Init, feel free to make a couple attempts on their life or something. When you have control of their body, fall on their sword and get your own body back.

For this one, have a couple Clones and Restoration items ready for if it goes wrong. Nothing was said about time limits, so you can just play bodysurf until it sticks, even if it takes days. Heck, screw up the first few times, they probably won't equip for feeding themself and you can fight a starved, emaciated Barbarian the next time.

#4) Contingency a Wall of Lava. Have another one ready to cast if you win.

Encircle 'em. Fly overhead and throw spellblobs or monsters down until they die.

Barbarian doesn't have enough oomph at this level to match.

navar100

2013-08-21, 10:30 PM

grarrrg

2013-08-21, 10:48 PM

NOTE: the following assume "bad case scenario". If the Wizard really wants he can get things more in his favor.

If you win Initiative, use a Reach Spell (Metamagic feat) Plane Shift,

Will negates.
15th level Barb has +5 to Will, +10 from Superstition, maybe +1 from WIS, throw on Cloak of Resist +5 (easily affordable), and an Auto-reroll from Eater of Magic
Plane Shift is 10+7+INT, Wizard can be expected to have at least 24 INT for +7
DC 24 vs 21+1d20 twice...that might work. Not likely, but maybe.

If you win Initiative, Disintegrate. Should kill 'em.

Disintigrate, save DC of 23
15 level Barb has +9 base, +10 Superstition, easily get another +6 from (raging) Con, and a reroll. We'll skip the Cloak this time...
DC 23 vs. 25 w/reroll...Barbarian takes 5d6 damage.
Oddly enough, if he fails the first save, but makes the second, he'd take NO damage. Eater of Magic is weird...

faircoin

2013-08-21, 10:48 PM

snip

It's a bit juvenile, but doesn't change the premise. Someone challenges a wizard vs barbarian in PF. Naturally, these boards are interested in these kinds of one-way battles, for some reason. Admittedly, since the barbarian and wizard automatically start within 60 ft of each other (what good wizard will ever let that happen?), it's a bit of a nerf to the wizard, but I doubt it's substantial.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-22, 05:28 AM

-snip-

Did you read the previous page where I outline that he thinks that mundanes are equally or more broken than casters?

And he contends that his Barbarian could hamper and beat practically any wizard thrown at him, even one built to destroy him. He knows he'll eventually go down to some build, but he doesn't think it's a sure fire thing. So I think it's quite fair game to ask for build advice given his opinion on mundane competence in this regard.

This duel is also the be-all, end-all that will get his griping finally dropped so its neither clogging up my inbox or the OOC thread for our game. He's otherwise a very conscientious and agreeable person and player, but this is something that has inevitably come up twice.

And here's what I've got from him thus far:

He's a human barbarian who's probably taking all the anti-magic rage powers. He does know about rage cycling and he has a magical beast mount (which is probably a Pegasus or something similar).

Kudaku

2013-08-22, 05:45 AM

In all honesty, you've already given him a pretty huge boon by agreeing to a duel to illustrate the difference. The main strength of casters is not that they outperform other classes in combat (though they can if built right) but rather that they have the spells to solve pretty much every out-of-combat challenge you can come up with.

Personally I think the idea of binding outsiders is pretty hilarious. Just prep any of the dozens of "you can't get me" spells and leave him to duke it out with your angelic hordes.

Beardbarian

2013-08-22, 06:34 AM

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/maze
+
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/limited-wish
+
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/forcecage (Low Ref of barbarian)
+
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/finger-of-death
+
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/waves-of-exhaustion (No For throw= no rage. You win)
+
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/ethereal-jaunt
+
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/tar-pool
+
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mislead
+
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/sirocco

And this is nothing

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-22, 06:53 AM

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-22, 07:07 AM

If he is using a mount, that is likely his means of flight. Plane shift the mount out from under him. I would recomend that you start with a projected image active and standing 60ft away on the OTHER side of him in the arena.

I'd need a metamagic reducer then in order to make Plane Shift tactically sound with the Reach metamagic feat applied. Unless there's a Reach spell metamagic rod.

Jack_Simth

2013-08-22, 07:22 AM

He's a human barbarian who's probably taking all the anti-magic rage powers. He does know about rage cycling and he has a magical beast mount (which is probably a Pegasus or something similar).

OK. So be ready to kill or disable his mount, as it'll very likely be *much* less durable than he is, and air superiority is very valuable.

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-22, 07:30 AM

Well the idea of the mount being a target is a good one though. It won't have his awesome saves and if you can knock out his flight you can laugh at him and kill him with crossbow bolts.

Also consider walls of force as a good option. He may not have a counter to it, and he will have to sunder it.

Another idea is to use familiar melding, then put your body in a portable space, and cast project image to fake your existence. Most people forget the familiar exists, so I doubt you will be attacked.

Segev

2013-08-22, 07:36 AM

The biggest thing you'll want to watch out for is aura defensive buffs on the barbarian, then, as those will also protect the Magical Beast mount. As a means of flight, they're a good choice. I do question how he's getting it, mechanically; sadly, unless PF has improved on this over 3.5, the gp costs for those are vague at best (with a few specific exceptions).

Provided you can shatter any Magic Circles Against [Alignment] and other defenses that might be protecting the mount, he's helpfully provided you with another potential body to possess. Depending on its capabilities, you might turn on and attack him with its own natural weapons, or you might simply fly up and up and up until he either jumps off or you're about 10x the maximum falling damage distance, and then plummet by simply ceasing to fly.

You can also cast Maze on his mount while he's flying. Sadly, unless I'm missing something, Maze is unspecific about how this spell works from the perspective of others who are not the target, but I believe that it actively removes the target from the world for the duration. Watch the barbarian plummet out of the sky. If you want to "help" him, you can Maze him first, THEN his mount. Now he un-Mazes likely before his mount does, and plummets THEN.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-22, 07:41 AM

Segev

2013-08-22, 08:08 AM

Oh, and while it seems silly, don't forget your Protection from Arrows and/or your Wind Wall. After you Disjoin him, he likely won't have any magic weapons, so these will keep him impotent while you remain at range.

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-22, 08:45 AM

I think some high level scrolls are worth the WBL cost. Consider the following

Winds of vengeance looks nice as it negates ALL ranged attacks at you and provides flight. It also provides some unavoidable damage if you are attacked in melee.

Gate is always a nice opener.

Also consider ethereal jaunt as an escape option. A contingency of "I get attacked" on an ethereal jaunt is a fun option. It will get you 15 rounds of buffing and preparing before you return to the plane in a location of your choice.

Qwertystop

2013-08-22, 08:51 AM

Careful about Disjunction - he might have some cheap artifact as a trap.

Segev

2013-08-22, 08:58 AM

Careful about Disjunction - he might have some cheap artifact as a trap.

(Limited) Wish even a day in advance should allow you to cause an artifact to be ignored by your next Disjunction.

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-22, 09:01 AM

Another funny solution to the problem of charging is to have a familiar and max ranks of UMD. Give it a scroll of gate and have it ready an action to open the gate directly in front of the barbarian if he charges, then dismiss the gate as soon as he is on the other side. Strand him on the positive energy plane, no save. The spell is concentration, so just have your familiar stop concentration as a free action to strand the barbarian somewhere nasty.

Qwertystop

2013-08-22, 09:03 AM

Killer Angel

2013-08-22, 09:04 AM

To the Barbarian player's credit, the nature of D&D games at his table could be such that most of the relevant stuff going on IS straight forward combat.

That's true only to a certain point.
Unless the enemy is a training dummy, the meleer can find some difficulties simply to hit the target. At that level (15°), it could be not so simple, because you are usually facing:
a) monsters that use magic
b) melee brutes that you don't want to face their full routine
c) both of them

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-22, 09:12 AM

The familiar can do it, because a familiar can hold that readied action for rounds waiting for the inevitable charge, all the while you continue to act.

A familiar with a scroll is a lot like a more powerful version of contingent spell.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-22, 09:19 AM

Update:

Not only is he alright with Pre-buffing, he was actually expecting it.

So...that answers those questions.

Segev

2013-08-22, 09:26 AM

A note regarding the "readied Gate" idea from the Familiar: I don't think anything in the rules says the Barbarian can't abort his Charge before he steps through it.

You're probably better off going through it, yourself, and "forgetting" to close it behind you. Wait for him to follow, then leave and close it on your way out. Possibly with a readied Time Stop, so you can definitely leave him behind.

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-22, 09:27 AM

I recommend that you prebuff with a scroll of Winds of vengeance and start 60 straight above him. If he is riding a Pegasus, it can't fly straight up, preventing him from charging the first round.

Terumitsu

2013-08-22, 09:54 AM

Something to be said about that polymorph any object (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph-any-object) suggestion earlier. Or rather a somewhat less broken use of it at least:

If he doesn't have fire immunity, there is no reason why you couldn't just turn up to 15,000 cubic feet of air around him into a gigantic cube of lava. Heck, even if he is immune, you could just seal him away in a solid mass of iron and you could argue that it lasts up to a week as it is the same size of stuff (+2 to the duration modifier thing) and it is the same kingdom as well (Mineral to mineral. +5 duration modifier)

The bonuses with lava, though, is the 20d6 per round of fire damage from total submersion; it can damage equipment due to some things being flammable or just through raw damage; and he would have to swim to get anywhere assuming the Ref rules that way as lava is extremely viscous (up to 100,00 times more difficult to move around in while in water). And even then there is now the threat of drowning and he would have no idea which way is up as he would be unable to see anything.

If thermodynamics are allowed for application in this, then just seal the entire edge of the cube in diamond/tungsten (Diamond is amazingly good at dispersing heat whereas tungsten's melting point is so high that if you threw molten tungsten into lava, the tungsten would freeze). The industrial type of diamond in this case as it only specifies 'gems' in the description. You now have a way to keep the cube in it's shape as well as a way to keep him in the cube if he manages to make his way to the edge.

This gets around the AMF as that is only a very small area inside this massive chunk of space. Plus, all of this is affecting an object and not him so you don't need to worry about his saves at all for this. It also does not allow him to fly around as this is a liquid and all and thus uses underwater combat rules. Freedom of movement is the only problem here but that doesn't

And, at the bare minimum, he would have to survive for 12 rounds + the time it takes to sunder the diamond/tungsten wall assuming he starts in the center of a 490 foot cube of the stuff surrounded by a 5foot layer of diamond/tungsten (Assuming unaugmented move speed beyond standard barbarian class features and no freedom of movement magic in place. Half the rounds here if Freedom of Movement is a thing). Note that underwater action halves the damage dealt although that may be moot if he can apply really high numbers at it/freedom of movement again. Still, that comes out to an average of roughly 800 or so damage from fire which, even if he is immune, his gear probably isn't.

To pull this off, I would suggest a contingency of teleportation in case you fail initiative to get yourself all ready and out of the way of this kind of carnage. But once you drop this, you have a solid few rounds of being able to prepare whatever you want for when he gets out of the cube.

Of course, it is exactly this kind of thing that serves to show why the Playground rightly agrees that this spell is hilariously potent.

Edit: Things to consider: He may have a way to teleport either with magic items or scrolls or the like but there have been many suggestions as to how to deal with his magic items already. Also, consider the Disruptive Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/disruptive-spell-metamagic) metamagic. You could hit him with the Greater Dispel Magic boosted by this (Maybe heightened for giggles?) to hinder any of his UMD checks for a round for more debuff goodness. Assuming maxed Con and, for whatever reason, him having put CC ranks into Concentration, he has about a 50% chance of being able to still cast. More likely it'll be around only 5% (Assuming you've maxed out INT. Not including Con or INT bonuses from race). Not necessary but potentially useful

Reddish Mage

2013-08-22, 10:22 AM

Update:

Not only is he alright with Pre-buffing, he was actually expecting it.

So...that answers those questions.

Note everyone that if the Barb does get to buy his WBL in equipment, he'll be attempting to equalize things that way. Of course, your improved invisibility is much cheaper than his ring of true-seeing and so on. Your superior ability to buy effects cheaply with scrolls makes things extremely lopsided.

Direct PvP is something that WoTC and TSR have both said is not a good way to establish how useful a class is. The real proof that Wizards are just better at high level is that Wizards can just call in the muscle that can then trounce a same level mundane.

Reddish Mage

2013-08-22, 10:28 AM

Why should it bother you he thinks non-spellcasters are so awesome? They are awesome regardless of what anyone on these forums says. If he plays a barbarian in a campaign while you play a wizard and he's having a blast, why should you be disturbed by the audacity of him not playing a spellcaster because they're oh so superior as far as you're concerned?

I also find it unfair and unsporting of you to ask for wizard building advice here while your friend builds his barbarian by himself, unless you know for a fact he is getting help. Make your own wizard.

Despite my signature, it is appropriate to discuss optimization here. The friend's claim is that there is no "disparity," and his choice of a dual to settle the matter proves he means a disparity in class power.

Since this is an argument about the relative power of the two classes rather than the cleverness of the respective players, this thread is completely appropriate.

Karoht

2013-08-22, 10:29 AM

I'm seeing a lot of suggestions for big flashy magic that insta-kills.

My suggestion is use as many spells as you can, preferably low level ones, that demonstrate every capability he doesn't have to fight you. Killing him won't demonstrate anything. Showing him that his character doesn't even have a means to compete on certain fronts. Every advantage he might be able to obtain, you can take away for completely negate.

Don't try to kill him. Try teach this player, not humiliate. If you use the Meld with Stone > Project Image trick, you can do the entire fight without ever being in any kind of danger. Show no fear, counter his every move, until he runs out of moves.

Edit: Prebuff with Project Image

Segev

2013-08-22, 10:30 AM

One idea to really illustrate the larger point would be to put up a Magnificent Mansion, and then build it into a dungeon. Put all your Planar Bound minions into the various rooms, use Guards and Wards to set up traps, then use all the other shenanigans around to just make him come on in. Make sure you can scry on him as he comes through it, so you can time your buffs to go online completely just as he's getting to you.

Do whatever you need to in order to make sure he has only the "come into the Mansion and find the wizard" option.

In doing this, you've demonstrated that a wizard can actually build a dungeon crawl using nothing but his in-game powers, and force the barbarian to dance to his tune. Even if he overcomes it, somehow, he comes to your inner sanctum exhausted and likely with most of his buffs down. You congratulate him on demonstrating how a barbarian can, in fact, solo a wizard's dungeon crawl. Then ask him if he could achieve the same. If he says yes, or that it doesn't matter, because a barbarian can still trounce a wizard, THEN the real fight starts, with you all buffed and him exhausted. Oh, and you're still inhabiting a borrowed body, with your Magic Jar (and real body) hidden nearby. And you should have plenty of Planar Bound and other minions still available for the "boss fight."

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-22, 10:43 AM

Good idea 1 - create a simulacrum of yourself and magic jar yourself into it.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-22, 10:44 AM

Good idea 1 - create a simulacrum of yourself and magic jar yourself into it.

I was going to ask:

Can I do that and then the Projected Image trick?

Segev

2013-08-22, 10:47 AM

I was going to ask:

Can I do that and then the Projected Image trick?

Absolutely!

Edit: Heck, you could be Astral Projecting into the arena, Magic Jar from your Astral Projection into a Simulacrum, and THEN Project Image from that.

Though...honestly, I think Magic Jarring a Simulacrum is a bad idea; a Simulacrum of you is you at half your HD; if you have it with you and ARE NOT magic jaring it, you have yourself plus a 7th level you. Action economy!

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-22, 10:55 AM

Actually, I would make several simulacrums of yourself, then magic jar from one to the next, so you wake up in each body in turn as he kills you. Put a different contingency on each one so that when you occupy the body, your buff stack drops automatically.

Stille_Nacht

2013-08-22, 04:01 PM

out of curiosity, when is this fight going to occur? i would like to see how it plays out (a barbarian getting curbstomped).

grarrrg

2013-08-22, 05:14 PM

Well the idea of the mount being a target is a good one though. It won't have his awesome saves

Ferocious Mount, Greater (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/ferocious-mount-greater-ex)
"While raging and mounted, the barbarian’s mount gains the benefits of any rage powers that are constant in effect when the barbarian is raging."

It also gets the Superstition Rage bonus.
It also gets the Eater of Magic bonus.
Superstition is at least +5 all Saves, possibly +10.

Still more likely to work against the mount, I'll grant you that, but don't expect it to be a slam dunk.

Segev

2013-08-22, 05:19 PM

You know what he needs? He needs to find an Outsider who can cast Calm Emotions, and bind a dozen or so of them.

After he Disjoins the Barbarian's stuff, they should all cast it at once. Repeatedly, if they can, but even a barbarian with Superstition should fail at least one out of 12 saves. If you think not...bind 20+ of them.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-22, 06:27 PM

Wouldn't it just be better to slam him with no save spells?

Jack_Simth

2013-08-22, 06:31 PM

Wouldn't it just be better to slam him with no save spells?
Yes & no.

If you happen to know exactly the route he's taking, and that no-save spells will do him in, then yes.

If you do not happen to know exactly the route he's taking, then... well, make sure to hedge your bets.

grarrrg

2013-08-22, 07:34 PM

I'm assuming Leadership is not allowed? Cause that right there would open up a whole new can of worms.

Wouldn't it just be better to slam him with no save spells?

Assume the worst, hope for the best.

He knows full well he's going all in versus a caster, there is very little reason for him NOT to boost his Saves as much as possible.
He as at his disposal an ability that gives at least +5 to ALL Saves, and that has little/no downside on his end. Assume he will use it.

Go ahead and prepare some spells that grant a Save, be prepared to not make use of them.
I've shown that he can very easily reach 20+ in each and every Save (25+ for Fort), AND he has an easy method for rerolls. If your build can raise the DC's high enough to be relevant, then by all means go crazy.

Personally, I'd plan on him making his saves.

Stille_Nacht

2013-08-22, 07:37 PM

Why not just max out on initiative, as said, then use the level 8 spell "polymorph any object" to turn yourself into a gold dragon or something? or if he allows "pre fight buffs", enter the fight as a gold dragon.

Casting spells that can, obviously, be used at any time seems like a better way to keep him from rationalizing it away.
If you mirror image, etc. etc., i feel as if he would just say "well yeah but if..." or "that only works here because...". While the strategy is really effective, it seems esoteric.
Whereas if you just say "i'm a gold dragon, wizards can do that", then "greater celerity, i get another standard action every turn", it really drives home the point "damn wizards are broken"

also, whatever you do, i'm a big fan of the slow death by enervation, so i'm just throwing it out there.
Kragor felt the strength leave his body, bit by bit, piece by piece. Years of training, years of blood sweat and tears, banished in instants by flicks of the wizard's fingers. Dull hopelessness set in as his body stopped responding, even his mind to weakened to work...

also, if you can disable him enough to get close, shivering touch (frostburn) is a good humiliation kill too. No save 3d6 dex damage should kill him after max 2 casts. Randomly dying to a level 3 spells isn't exactly the picture of pride.

13_CBS

2013-08-22, 07:41 PM

That's true only to a certain point.
Unless the enemy is a training dummy, the meleer can find some difficulties simply to hit the target. At that level (15°), it could be not so simple, because you are usually facing:
a) monsters that use magic
b) melee brutes that you don't want to face their full routine
c) both of them

It is entirely possible (though admittedly unlikely) that the OP's table regularly faces enemies that, at level 15, are easily hittable for a well-optimized melee. If the previous is true, then if the Barbarian player builds his characters well enough it's quite possible he frequently trumps enemy melees in a head on fight.

Not to say I necessarily disagree with you in the end:I'm just trying to come up with a rational explanation as to how the Barbarian player could come to his conclusion.

Segev

2013-08-22, 07:59 PM

I suggest again at least considering the idea of using Mage's Magnificent Mansion to build a dungeon he has to traverse to even get to you.

"You can overcome these obstacles with a week's preparation, but I can build them in a week."

Jack_Simth

2013-08-22, 09:47 PM

Endarire

2013-08-23, 12:22 AM

Lycanthromancer's Duel (3.5) - A Splatbook Fighter20 vs a Core-Only Wizard20 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4209.0)

Sure, it ain't exact, but the similarities are there. You can buy items to cast level 9 spells, like scrolls and staves. You can hire people to cast spells for you. You can use simulacrum to make sims of your favorite creatures. Go wild.

If you want, show him that link and ask if he still really wants to duke it out. If so, he's been warned.

Lightlawbliss

2013-08-23, 12:26 AM

following up on the maze him, maze mount idea:
use what ever you like to make it so there is a massive pit under him when he exits and walls way up high.

at the mansion idea: You could make it in a lot less then a week. Especially if the ref considers traps to be allowed within what the spell makes itself. RAW, a near unbeatable trap could very well be allowed at no cost (It can be considered furnishing) depending on how the ref reads it.

Firechanter

2013-08-23, 03:31 AM

Does the whole Maze thing still comply with the rules of engagement, i.e. combatants start 60' from each other etc.? Does he even have access to the arena before the duel to plant a dungeon there?

The idea as such is lovely, though. But personally, I'd probably keep it simple: enter the arena with an active Contingency:DimDoor (so not even abusing Celerity and Time Stop cheese) to make sure the Barb can't attack in the first round, and then let him go through piles of Summons and Binds.

Also, if you start with line of sight of each other, be sure to set the right condition for your Contingency. If you set it to "enemy approaches 30'" or somesuch, you may find yourself transformed into gooey paste by a Brutal Thrower.

Killer Angel

2013-08-23, 04:12 AM

Not to say I necessarily disagree with you in the end:I'm just trying to come up with a rational explanation as to how the Barbarian player could come to his conclusion.

I agree.
Another possible explanation is that the DM likes to play single big monsters heavy hitters.
This would help pcs as uberchargers, and so on.

lord_khaine

2013-08-23, 04:28 AM

Since this is an argument about the relative power of the two classes rather than the cleverness of the respective players, this thread is completely appropriate.

Not really, because if the optimisation of one class is augumented by the boards, while the other isnt, then the only thing the outcome of this fight will show, is that superior optimisation wins.

To actualy show anything then the barbarian player would need to start his own thread here, and get his own team of coaches :smalltongue:

Sure, it ain't exact, but the similarities are there. You can buy items to cast level 9 spells, like scrolls and staves. You can hire people to cast spells for you. You can use simulacrum to make sims of your favorite creatures. Go wild.

If you want, show him that link and ask if he still really wants to duke it out. If so, he's been warned.

This is however pathfinder, apperently a lot have changet in the rules.

Skrobo

2013-08-23, 06:17 AM

Find a way to create millions of explosive runes. Place then next to him, cast dispel magic on them, forfeit your caster level check and make the runes explode.

You might also put then next to you and have contingency dimension door and dispel magic for extra coolness points.

Even if he has evasion and only fails on a double 1, 15000d6 force damage should be enough.

Kesnit

2013-08-23, 07:14 AM

Why not just max out on initiative, as said, then use the level 8 spell "polymorph any object" to turn yourself into a gold dragon or something? or if he allows "pre fight buffs", enter the fight as a gold dragon.

Casting spells that can, obviously, be used at any time seems like a better way to keep him from rationalizing it away.
If you mirror image, etc. etc., i feel as if he would just say "well yeah but if..." or "that only works here because...". While the strategy is really effective, it seems esoteric.
Whereas if you just say "i'm a gold dragon, wizards can do that", then "greater celerity, i get another standard action every turn", it really drives home the point "damn wizards are broken"

I agree with this.

I would recommend talking to the referee prior to the duel and run your build and plans past him/her. The last thing you want is to win, then have the fight be called invalid because "the tactics you used aren't realistic for an actual adventure." (or something like that)

A few other ideas
1) Don't use 9th level spells. Sure, you could get scrolls, but that's contingent on the DM letting you. If you stick with spells your PC can can cast and could theoretically have in their spellbook, it's less likely your friend or the ref will call foul.
2) Severely limit your spell book. I would recommend only having 2 8th level spells, since at LVL 15, you will have only just gotten the ability to choose them at level up. If you use more than two, you open yourself to the argument that you cannot guarantee actually having access to all those spells. I would also recommend only having 4-6 7th level spells for the same reason. (Lower than that, it isn't hard to justify having more.)

Maginomicon

2013-08-23, 07:38 AM

Why not just max out on initiative, as said, then use the level 8 spell "polymorph any object" to turn yourself into a gold dragon or something? or if he allows "pre fight buffs", enter the fight as a gold dragon.This. Seriously. Nerveskitter regardless, Sign + Nerveskitter (and bookoos more) if he allows pre-combat buffs.

You aren't fighting a Spell Duel (from Complete Arcane), so you don't have to follow its standards for combat. Take advantage of that.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-23, 08:24 AM

Not really, because if the optimisation of one class is augumented by the boards, while the other isnt, then the only thing the outcome of this fight will show, is that superior optimisation wins.

To actualy show anything then the barbarian player would need to start his own thread here, and get his own team of coaches :smalltongue:

No, it wouldn't.

His point is that his build could be a nightmare to any caster with any build. He knows he will go down, but he contends that he would still wreck face and do well, no matter what.

Edit:

@Kesnit:

Nothing by RAW prevents the purchasing of 9th level scrolls by a 15th level caster.

Lightlawbliss

2013-08-23, 08:29 AM

We are dealing with someone begging to get the worst a wizard has to offer.

Web could be all it takes to shut him down for a while. Hampered movement and all. A familiar with that can cause him to start charging then be stuck (if he doesn't have FoM)

Segev

2013-08-23, 08:31 AM

You know, I'd have fun helping the Barbarian optimize for this fight, too, though I admit I know the class less well (especially in PF).

Maybe we should set up something like our Iron Chef challenges, but where we have designated judges and contestants, and we actively encourage each contestant to start a thread for their character where people can coach them on optimizing.

If we wanted to get VERY elaborate, there could be multiple judges, each of whom is building a mini-dungeon (optimized according to rules for CR of encounters). Characters are judged on survival, points earned through achievements, and style. (These dungeon judges could even start threads for ideas on optimizing their encounters.)

Final round is a 1:1 PvP duel between the two highest-scorers, judged by the Chairman.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-23, 08:38 AM

Something I didn't ask yet:

Shadow Demons were mentioned as good summons, but what would be the best outsider to bind to take him on? I mean, 40 something creatures will slow him down, but they're all, at best, 12 HD creatures.

Segev

2013-08-23, 08:47 AM

Komatik

2013-08-23, 08:57 AM

Are ghost swarms a possibility? >:)

Or really, just a crapton of ghosts.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-23, 09:00 AM

Can't pull out Pit Fiends, Mariliths, and Balors?

Good heavens, just a half-dozen Marliliths planted around him will make him provoke so many AoOs just trying to get to you...or rather, your projected image of your magic jar-possessed patsy's body. And that's leaving out all her nasty spell-like abilities.

And yes, 1/day, they, too, can Fly.

But then I'd need to be using Greater Planar Binding scrolls instead of just the Wizard's actual spell slots.

And that's only up to 18 HD, which excludes Pit Fiends and Balors.

Are ghost swarms a possibility? >:)

Or really, just a crapton of ghosts.

He probably has the rage power that lets him hit ghosts.

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-23, 09:10 AM

With your initial set of pre-summons, it doesn't matter if he can hit them or not. They are speed bumps on the road between you and him. They are there to slow him down and prevent charges while you layer on no save debuffs in preparation for a SOD.

Eldariel

2013-08-23, 09:32 AM

But then I'd need to be using Greater Planar Binding scrolls instead of just the Wizard's actual spell slots.

And that's only up to 18 HD, which excludes Pit Fiends and Balors.

Wait. You're level 15. You have 8th level slots. Why would you need scrolls?

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-23, 09:55 AM

Wait. You're level 15. You have 8th level slots. Why would you need scrolls?

*face palm* I...forgot I had 8th level slots. For some reason I thought I only had 7th.

Edit:

In that case, what about Ice devils? I doubt he'll have the proper means to overcome their Regeneration.

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-23, 10:02 AM

Another good option for summoning helpers is a scroll of wish. It can bring 17 creatures of any HD from anywhere to the arena. If they are willing and lower their SR, then even better.

Pay off 17 pit fiends and port them in on the first round. Offer then free reign on the mortal plane for their services and leaving you alone.

StreamOfTheSky

2013-08-23, 10:23 AM

I don't know if you're a sly devil or you just did it w/o realizing, but the duel parameters you set up HEAVILY favor the spellcaster. This is aside from the fact that no duel in the world will demonstrate how a spellcaster can teleport and plane shift across worlds, heal the injured, force others to be their mind slaves, create something from literally nothing, spy on others from the other side of the world, fly, know how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop, etc... But, anyway...

The parameters of the duel are as such:

The duel takes place in an open air arena that is 500 feet by 500 feet with no particular features beyond that.

A huge open area w/ no terrain to hide behind is a massive edge for the spellcaster. There doesn't even appear to be a ceiling of any height! Sure, terrain can ruin a charge, but the martial doesn't benefit from an empty plane nearly as much as a caster does.

The combatants are made aware that they're going into this one week in advance and have that week to prepare. They have only general knowledge about their opponent.

Another huge edge. Feats and rage powers can't be changed in a week. A wizard in a week's time can learn 7 new spells perfect for the situation or create 7000 gp worth of magic item and can prepare the ideal set up of spells on the day of. A barbarian...can't really do much of anything, maybe trade in some gear for a +5 cloak of resist or whatever. Either inform them of the duel when they're children or wait until 1 hour before it starts. Anything in between is just making it too unbalanced in terms of the benefits of the fore-knowledge.

The combatants begin 60 feet apart from one another.

Charge range. I'd say this helps the Barbarian, but for a D&D encounter...60 ft is actually pretty far away. And there's no way in hell the Barbarian is winning initiative anyway. So...this one is a pretty neutral parameter, I guess.

The combatants have normal wealth by level and a 25 point buy.

All official Paizo material is usable here. No Third party material or grand fathered material.

The universe is assumed to work under strict RAW.

All sounds fairly neutral here. Good.

The combatants are 15th level.

Oh? Exactly on the dot 15th level? 14th seemed to low, but 16th too high? Gee, I wonder how 15th level got picked... considering Barbarian gets no class features or feats of note at 15th, but a spellcaster gets SPELL PERFECTION, one of the most overpowered feats in the whole game. Right at 15th level. Such a coincidence... :smallannoyed:

Segev

2013-08-23, 10:27 AM

Oh? Exactly on the dot 15th level? 14th seemed to low, but 16th too high? Gee, I wonder how 15th level got picked... considering Barbarian gets no class features or feats of note at 15th, but a spellcaster gets SPELL PERFECTION, one of the most overpowered feats in the whole game. Right at 15th level. Such a coincidence... :smallannoyed:

This, apparently, is the factor that the OP didn't choose at all, and left entirely up to the Barbarian. The barbarian player picked level 15.

Oko and Qailee

2013-08-23, 10:36 AM

Guys, keep in mind that any Cheese or crazy OP things a wizard can do is part of what a Wizard can do. If a DM or referee has to limit those to make this a fair fight... well then it's evidence that the wizard is more powerful.

All pre-fight buffing and summoning should be fair game, simply because its part of what the wizard can do, and the point of this exercise is "who wins in a fight barbarian or wizard."

So if you show up to the arena with several binded enemies, a contingency spell already cast, and w/e else, then it's all fair game to make the point that a wizard can do that and a barbarian cannot, and that is why the wizard is flat out better.

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-23, 10:37 AM

On another note, if he is using a flying mount, a combination of Scouring Winds (no visibility, penalty to fly checks, no save damage) and Sirocco (fort for half damage, flying creatures are forced down if they fail a fly check) could make for an interesting counter.

You cast Scouring winds to deal damage and lock him down, then, before he can exit you hit him with sirocco, knocking his mount to the ground.

Also, Contagious Flame could be used to bounce rays of damage between the barb and his mount.

Also, I would strongly consider tracking down the barbarian and implanting a few Unconscious Agenda spells for him to drop out of rage at the start of the fight. Then you dominate him for real during his weakened HOUR OF BEING DOMINATED!

Oko and Qailee

2013-08-23, 10:42 AM

I don't know if you're a sly devil or you just did it w/o realizing, but the duel parameters you set up HEAVILY favor the spellcaster.

Yeah, but all that is only a FRACTION of the advantages that a spellcaster would normally have IN GAME.

In game a spellcaster doesn't get a week, they get months

In game a spellcaster doesn't ever have to be within 60ft of a barbarian, they can instead be hundreds of feet

If anything, relative to a normal D&D campaign, the advantages here are lee than what a spellcaster would normally get, and the entire point of this exercise is that the barbarian player is trying to prove barbarian players are just as useful in a normal game combat situation.

If he's trying to prove that a barbarian is just as useful, then the situation should allow the wizard every advantage he can possible have over the barbarian because thats what happens in actual games.

I actual games, 15th level barbarians dont get to start 60ft away from a wizard that is unbuffed, they start very far away, already scryed vs a completely prepared wizard.

To deny the wizard all that is to admit the wizard is superior, because you had to intentionally nerf his capabilities just to compete.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-23, 10:52 AM

This, apparently, is the factor that the OP didn't choose at all, and left entirely up to the Barbarian. The barbarian player picked level 15.

Yeah, this.

In fact, I was going to let him pick all the parameters for this and he answered:

I'll be polite and let you propose the necessary parameters, and then counter from their. After all, the tradition of the duel is that the target makes the choice of weapon and location.

He would only acquiesce to being allowed to pick the level.

Segev

2013-08-23, 10:56 AM

Oh, my. He said the wizard was the target?

Give him the dungeon crawl!

As for how to get him to the mansion without having "time" to put the mansion up before-hand, what you do is set it up before hand. Don't worry that the native doorway isn't present. --oh, wait. I was going to say "open a Gate to it; it's a demiplane of its own," but then I recalled you don't want to use 9th level spells.

Zubrowka74

2013-08-23, 10:57 AM

I'd just like to comment : this doesn't illustrate AT ALL the tier system. A one on one duel only proves the power level. The tier system is about versatility and since you are only facing one kind of threat (the barbarian) and have time to prepare, you ain't showcasing a fraction of what the wizard can do.

Dimers

2013-08-23, 11:00 AM

Be sure you have anti-invisibility spells ready or already on. If the referee is secretly against you, they might say "you didn't know combat had started because you didn't see anybody there". And contingency might not function if you can't see the trigger, either.

Um. I guess the real advice here is "know whether your referee is biased".

Segev

2013-08-23, 11:00 AM

In theory, you're right, Zubrowka74, but in practice, we're using the versatility to make this such a vast-scaled curbstomp that it actually kind-of does illustrate it.

Though your point is one of the reasons I brought up (and worry I am now becoming a broken record about) the idea of building a dungeon using nothing but the Wizard's IC capabilities and forcing the Barbarian to go through it BEFORE otherwise beating him.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-23, 11:04 AM

Karoht

2013-08-23, 11:07 AM

To deny the wizard all that is to admit the wizard is superior, because you had to intentionally nerf his capabilities just to compete.Indeed, the Barbarian has already conceded a victory of sorts. As for the arena matchup, even starting 60ft away with no buffs, the Wizard isn't exactly hamstrung either.
The danger is if the Barbarian wins initiative.

Sorry for not directly acknowledging it Segev. I think it's a wonderful, beautiful thing of any idea, but I could see it being invalidated because it's not exactly a duel.This is why I said that a display of raw power isn't as interesting. Meld with Stone + Project Image to be 100% safe from the guy, then taking the time to demonstrate all the ways you CAN fight, and all the ways he CAN'T fight, and demonstrating that you can do all of this from a position of absolute safety while he has no means of even finding you...
That is a better demonstration than just an out and out curb stomp.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-23, 11:10 AM

Indeed, the Barbarian has already conceded a victory of sorts. As for the arena matchup, even starting 60ft away with no buffs, the Wizard isn't exactly hamstrung either.
The danger is if the Barbarian wins initiative.

Oh, no, I'm allowed to come in pre-buffed. He's expecting it in fact.

He only expects things like Invisibility, Mage Armor and Fly though....

Karoht

2013-08-23, 11:15 AM

Oh, no, I'm allowed to come in pre-buffed. He's expecting it in fact.

He only expects things like Invisibility, Mage Armor and Fly though....
/obligatory Monty Python quote
"No one suspects the Spanish Inquisition!"

/actual suggetion which applies to quote
Dude, you totally need to have Ventriloquism on your list. Taunt him like you are standing right next to him.

EDIT: I edited previous post after you replied. See above.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-23, 11:22 AM

This is why I said that a display of raw power isn't as interesting. Meld with Stone + Project Image to be 100% safe from the guy, then taking the time to demonstrate all the ways you CAN fight, and all the ways he CAN'T fight, and demonstrating that you can do all of this from a position of absolute safety while he has no means of even finding you...
That is a better demonstration than just an out and out curb stomp.

The issue with the Projected Image is that he can just sunder it. And wasn't it brought up that Meld with Stone would break line of effect?

grarrrg

2013-08-23, 11:46 AM

Hmmm...Not necessarily effective, but QUITE humiliating.
Kill him with Magic Missile.

It doesn't allow a Save, so that's good.
Take Spell Perfection > Magic Missile.
Take both Traits that reduce Metamagic by 1 (total of -2).

You'll still want to prep a few movement/defensive spells, but most of your spell slots will be metamagic Magic Missiles.

About half of them should be Quickened (which is +0 thanks to Perfection), throw Echoing on there (up to +1 thanks to the reducers).
Go ahead and put Toppling on there, free Trip checks for +1, and he will likely NOT be prepared to make Combat Maneuver checks. His CMD will still be high, but not unreachable (+2).
Piercing Spell may be handy if you think he'll have Spell Resistance (+3).
The bonuses may be minimal, but may as well throw Empowered and/or Maximized on there. They both add about the same amount of damage on their own, so skew towards Empowered (+5).
Wow...running out of (potentially) useful Metamagic here...Split Slot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-discoveries/split-slot) can be taken as a Feat to give you extra lower level slots at the expense of a higher level one. Or you can just prepare all of your utility stuff in the highest slots anyway.

End result, after some buffing, you'll be throwing out 4 castings of Magic Missile per round. Quickened, Normal, Echoed+Quicken, Echoed.
You're chances of a successful Trip will be low, but will still be possible, and with 4 attempts every round...

Again, this is a semi-serious suggestion. But in the case where he insists on a "best 2 out of 3" this might be fun to break out for round 2.

Elricaltovilla

2013-08-23, 12:17 PM

There was some concern about the barbarian having high saves?

Might I introduce you to the Void School of Wizardry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/elemental-arcane-schools/void-elemental-school)?

Specifically this little gem:

When you activate this school power as a standard action, you select a foe within 30 feet. That creature takes a penalty to its AC and on saving throws equal to 1/2 your caster level (minimum –1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence bonus.

Note, it offers no save or opportunity to avoid. At 15th level, you can give him a -7 to his AC and Saves, while your summons apply whatever nasty Spells and SLAs you like, and you pepper him with quickened spells.

Karoht

2013-08-23, 12:46 PM

The issue with the Projected Image is that he can just sunder it. And wasn't it brought up that Meld with Stone would break line of effect?
Depends on the stone, and the positioning of the image really. Also, you draw line of effect from the outermost edge of that piece of stone that you can move to. If that direction is many feet up in the air (yet still within range) you aren't breaking line of effect, so long as you are touching the top of the block (in this case, the floor of the arena). Also, as for him sundering the image, he has to reach the image, interact with the image, realize it is a magical effect, and then sunder it. The Image can also have illusion effects running at the same time. Mirror Image and Displacement are good choices, and will slow down his ability to sunder the image itself. By the time all of that has taken place, you've moved out of reach (Invisibly), or removed his ability to reach you.

All the while he's hearing Ventriloquism as you babble in his ear. Truthfully the image is just to buy you time while you dispel any items or effects you want to shut down.

Heck, want to really spoof him? Have your Project Image succeed on a Spellcraft or Bluff (I forget which it is in this instance, maybe it's a Bluff opposed by his Spellcraft?) and trick him into thinking that the Image has cast Meld into Stone, and then disappear into stone. Just make sure it does this away from the block of stone you are hiding in. If he falls for it he might waste time smashing that block of stone trying to bust you out. Then you can just laugh.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-23, 02:38 PM

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-23, 02:43 PM

Yes, but you can wait out a few round while he fearfully keeps his rage going to ward off the inevitable SOD that comes at him before he can react. Once he runs out of rage, he is open to your attacks. The longer the battle runs, the better it is for you.

Karoht

2013-08-23, 03:28 PM

The issue with the Image is, he'll just sunder it. Yes, that's an attack not coming my Wizard's way, but then it means that I'd need to un-meld from the stone to resume battle.

And any suggestions on how I could get the Ice Devils bound with no hiccups? They have a nasty Charisma score to oppose.
Taken from Pathfindersrd.com

Meld into Stone
Meld into stone enables you to meld your body and possessions into a single block of stone. The stone must be large enough to accommodate your body in all three dimensions. When the casting is complete, you and not more than 100 pounds of non-living gear merge with the stone. If either condition is violated, the spell fails and is wasted.

While in the stone, you remain in contact, however tenuous, with the face of the stone through which you melded. You remain aware of the passage of time and can cast spells on yourself while hiding in the stone. Nothing that goes on outside the stone can be seen, but you can still hear what happens around you. Minor physical damage to the stone does not harm you, but its partial destruction (to the extent that you no longer fit within it) expels you and deals you 5d6 points of damage. The stone's complete destruction expels you and slays you instantly unless you make a DC 18 Fortitude save. Even if you make your save, you still take 5d6 points of damage.

Any time before the duration expires, you can step out of the stone through the surface that you entered.
You can spend the time buffing before you emerge, and every round that passes is another round of his Rage gone.
Also, you can cast Project Image on yourself while in the stone. Just saying.

Spuddles

2013-08-23, 03:49 PM

every round that passes is another round of his Rage gone.

He isn't going to run out of rage.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-23, 03:54 PM

He isn't going to run out of rage.

And he can just sunder active spell effects. So I feel like the Project Image slot would be better used elsewhere.

Spuddles

2013-08-23, 04:00 PM

And he can just sunder active spell effects. So I feel like the Project Image slot would be better used elsewhere.

Why are you letting the barbarian get close enough to sunder the image? It moves however you like- you could have it "teleport" around the battlefield and pew pew him with spells.

Arc_knight25

2013-08-23, 04:05 PM

So some fun things you can do are:
8th lvl
Trap Soul with Sympathy. Send him a gem before the fight. He may find it strange that your sending him gifts before the big day but big whoop. All he has to do is accept it and touch it. Sympathy goes off and boom he's trapped, no SR and no save, if it fails eh it was only 15,000 for the gem. Have one of your Bound servants take it to him. An Angel of some sort. He won't be raging so.. enjoy. You can use divination's to find out who he is and all that jazz if the DM asks how you found him.

7th lvl
Reverse Gravity: Buff away, Prep. Do what you will
Simunacrum: Make a few before the fight.

6th
Contingency: This is your savior for losing init.

5th
Rock to mud then Mud to Rock. For if he is on the ground and you want him to stay stuck.
Magic Jar shenanigans

4th
Mnemonic Enhancer- Use to cast more spells during your prep week
Resilient Sphere-Lets see him get out of that or in if you like.

3rd
Explosive runes: 1/2 dmg on a save.
Sepia Snake Sigil: Another sneaky way. On your 1st day of preparing send this in a book with someone. Make sure its a book he will want to read, if he fails the save his Prep Week is over before the fight and doesn't get to buy anything. Again Divinations are your friend for finding him.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-23, 10:43 PM

Yeah, he's got a pegasus. I just casually mentioned the possibility of fighting over 10 Gelugons at once and he mentioned being able to out fly them. Pegasus has a 120 fly speed.

ryu

2013-08-23, 10:47 PM

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-23, 11:04 PM

Have you considered getting cheeky and pointing out that the flight is meaningless without contingencies for when you blow his horse mutant out of the sky with any number of spells that don't allow saves?

He thought I'd only have 7 level 8 spells in a week and thought he could easily deal with 21+ Gelugons if I could actually get them.

And he thinks that, at level 15, I wouldn't be able to bring out 9th level spells.

ryu

2013-08-23, 11:09 PM

Clearly you must dismiss these horrible delusions. Have you considered buying up as many scrolls of gate as possible and burying him in as many alignment appropriate flying nasties as possible?

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-23, 11:19 PM

Clearly you must dismiss these horrible delusions. Have you considered buying up as many scrolls of gate as possible and burying him in as many alignment appropriate flying nasties as possible?

I need to hard kill his Pegasus is what I need to prioritize. It only has average maneuverability, but that 120 ft. fly speed is a pain.

Edit:

And now he thinks I have something like a .001% to even bind any Gelugons and that if he sundered the Planar Binding on them, that they'd just turn on me. :smallsigh:

ryu

2013-08-23, 11:30 PM

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-23, 11:37 PM

I don't know whether this is sympathy I'm feeling or jealousy. That look when someone realizes what happens when facing the magically endowed embodiment of batman is hilarious. Just make sure you get a legitimately neutral judge.

At this point I'm contemplating just getting him to agree to disagree and warn him with repercussions if he disrupts things again. He legitimately appears to not understand how casters work when not played down. How can he see he loses if he doesn't even understand how it was possible?

ryu

2013-08-23, 11:42 PM

Avoid playing down but toy with him so hard he sees most of the tricks while you explain how you got them and how they work together. If he protests in any way just tell him that that's how wizards work when not catering to the egos of brutes swinging various forms of sharp sticks.

Lightlawbliss

2013-08-23, 11:43 PM

My thoughts on neutral judge: do it here on the play ground. We haven't had someone beg this hard for a face pounding in a long time and thousands of judges are going to know the rules.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-23, 11:53 PM

This is his exact opinion on me binding Gelugons:

With no feats your ability to beat their SR is as follows:
1D20 + CL (15th)
you would have to roll a 19 (19+15 = 24) since you have to match their SR. That's a 10% chance (2 in 20 on a D20)
With feats you get a +4:
1D20 + CL (15th) +4
you would only need a 15 (15+19 = 24). You're right actually, my second projection was off by 5%. You actually have a 30% chance with feats (6 in 20 on a D20).
As for doing it three times in a row: when you multiply probabilities you do it in sequence. Assuming one failure would interrupt the sequence you would need all three to be successful. Thus:
0.10*0.10*0.10 = 0.001 or a .1% chance of success. Forgot to give the percentage result last time not the decimal.
With feats:
0.30*0.30*0.30 = 0.027 or a 2.7% chance of success.

Segev

2013-08-23, 11:55 PM

My thoughts on neutral judge: do it here on the play ground. We haven't had someone beg this hard for a face pounding in a long time and thousands of judges are going to know the rules.

We don't quite count as "neutral" given ... well, just read your post. ^^; (I'm not attacking you here. It just illustrates why we won't count as "neutral." Certainly not to somebody who believes we're wrong.)

Lightlawbliss

2013-08-24, 12:02 AM

This is his exact opinion on me binding Gelugons:

He forgot something very important: buffs.

At Segev, I never said we were neutral: I said those were my thoughts on neutral judge. (and no insult taken)

ryu

2013-08-24, 12:04 AM

And he understands NOTHING of buffs or cl increasing items? Oh this gon' be good.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-24, 12:06 AM

He forgot something very important: buffs.

Or the line in Magic Circle that lets you do extra work to completely negate them getting to pit their SR against it.

And he thinks that once they leave the circle to come to the fight they're no longer bound. Not like I need to magically bind a Devil that's already given its word to complete a very straight forward task.

Tetsujin-28

2013-08-24, 12:26 AM

Do not let him win initiative, or he might have a legitimate chance of killing you if he gets first strike. To utterly negate this, I'd recommended specializing in the Divination school, which will grant you +7 to Initiative. Take the Opposition Research discovery so you don't suffer from the barred schools.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-24, 12:27 AM

tyckspoon

2013-08-24, 12:28 AM

I need to hard kill his Pegasus is what I need to prioritize. It only has average maneuverability, but that 120 ft. fly speed is a pain.

If he's crazy enough to use a Bestiary-standard Pegasus, you can just kill it with straight up direct damage. A few rounds of (Quickened) Magic Missiles will do the job - they only have 34 HP (somewhat more if he's sharing Rage with it, but then he's burning Rage rounds twice as fast. So.. play defensive for a while and let him.) There's probably a few other unavoidable damage spells you could opt for. Or, as mentioned before, you could just Maze the thing if you want to be really certain of it. Takes the pegasus completely out of the fight, doesn't care about any save bonuses the Barbarian is granting it, and even if it gets lucky and gets out of the Maze soon enough to potentially still be part of the fight it's separated from the Barbarian and they both have to blow rounds getting re-mounted.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-24, 12:30 AM

If he's crazy enough to use a Bestiary-standard Pegasus, you can just kill it with straight up direct damage.

Does he really have a choice other than using a standard version of any creature?

And doing this is an uphill battle. He doesn't even think a 15th level Wizard can bind and get a single Gelugon to do anything, let alone 21+ of them.

ryu

2013-08-24, 12:33 AM

Just show him the mathematical bonuses he either forgot or blatantly ignored. That'll shut up his binding complaints but good.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-24, 12:40 AM

Just show him the mathematical bonuses he either forgot or blatantly ignored. That'll shut up his binding complaints but good.

Even after that, he views the Gelugons as nothing but wasted spell slots. He doesn't think they'll ever lay a scratch on him and that they'll be at best AOO sponges as he just dances around them.

Edit:

Sweet Pun-Pun. He changed his mount to be a Kirin.

Which is CR 13.

Which has no rules for having one as a mount.

Which is from Forgotten Foes by Trick Owl Publishing.

Which is a Third party source.

:smallsigh:

tyckspoon

2013-08-24, 12:50 AM

Even after that, he views the Gelugons as nothing but wasted spell slots. He doesn't think they'll ever lay a scratch on him and that they'll be at best AOO sponges as he just dances around them.

At will Ice Storm. 5d6 damage, no save. Plus the area it's in is difficult terrain. Just.. stand in the middle of four or so of them and have them plus yourself spam out spell effects. He can't 'dance around them' if he wants to actually have a shot at attacking you, and his mount is going to die under the hail pretty quickly as well as having severe trouble flying through it. Demons and Devils are much more than meat-walls.. almost all of the higher-ranking ones have at least one spell-like or supernatural ability that can cause significant trouble for a melee character when used intelligently. (Also, if you feel like completely destroying his maneuverability, at-will Wall of Ice.)

Edit: That sounds like it's starting to devolve into the realm of 'Well, I actually realized I have no chance here, so let's desperately dig for anything at all that I might be able to pass off as a legitimate option.' Especially if you guys don't usually use third-party material.

Double Edit: Especially because there already is a Pathfinder-standard version of the Kirin- it's a CR 7 critter (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/kirin.html) in Bestiary 3. Still no official rules on how to get one to be your mount short of Leadershipping it to be your Cohort.

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-24, 05:49 AM

Now there is an idea - Why not have an extra wizard? Take leadership, even if you don't use it in the battle, having a few hundred casters to craft for you and a level 13 wizard cohort to help with pre-buffing will help.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-24, 08:20 AM

If he did use Leadership, then I'm just going to call him out on it. The minute you start using one of the most broken feats ever printed to try and beat a caster with a non-caster, you're already admitting you're wrong.

Tectonic Robot

2013-08-24, 09:30 AM

Hey, man, leadership seems like it's fair in this situation. Even if it ends up him having a bunch of casters of his own, it's still technically a tool in the barbarian's arsenal!

Segev

2013-08-24, 09:49 AM

Eh, if the solution to beating a caster is "have a secondary character who is also a caster," you kind-of admit that casting is going to be the determining factor. (It's totally fair for him to pay for buffs to be put on him beforehand, though. It is assumed in D&D that magic IS available to everybody. Just as you can pay for services, if any appeal to you, so can he.)

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-24, 09:57 AM

Hey, man, leadership seems like it's fair in this situation. Even if it ends up him having a bunch of casters of his own, it's still technically a tool in the barbarian's arsenal!

But then it's also fair for me to have it and to bring my little entourage of extra casters. :smalltongue:

Edit:

So, how can I boost my caster level to 19ish? Mage's Tattoo and an Ioun Stone get it to 17, but I'm not sure of any other flat increasing methods.

DMVerdandi

2013-08-24, 04:04 PM

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-24, 04:15 PM

Use Giant form to become a fire giant.
Wield a huge Adamantine bastard sword.
Buff yourself out, and then use disintigrate against the mount.

If it comes up that the barb is using AMF, your reach with your new form is FANTASTIC, so you won't have to worry about the AMF. Because the sword is large enough, the damage it deals will be pretty sweet.

So, when that argument comes up about how to beat a melee person who is either very magic resistant or has a field up, the answer is simply to become a larger creature for the bonuses, to grab a big weapon, and to beat him savagely.

Why would I ever get into one one one range with him? :smallconfused:

And he was using Leadership to get that Kirin, but he realized the one he was using stats for was 3rd Party and he is tweaking his build to remove Leadership because of how crazy broken/defeating the purpose it is.

He still thinks he can one-shot Planetars though and render them non-factors in the fight.

137beth

2013-08-24, 07:06 PM

[QUOTE=Tanuki Tales;15884867]Even after that, he views the Gelugons as nothing but wasted spell slots. He doesn't think they'll ever lay a scratch on him and that they'll be at best AOO sponges as he just dances around them.

/QUOTE]

That's much better--if it were a disagreement over the rules, then you couldn't convince him by kicking his non-magical-behind. If he just thinks that Gelugons would lose to him, then call some gelugons and beat him:smallbiggrin:

Eldariel

2013-08-24, 07:15 PM

Belier Devil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/devil-belier) is a nice candidate for Greater Planar Binding. Greater Dispel Magic at will (to wreck anyone relying on magic items), flight, some pretty decent spell-likes, reasonable overall physical and magical offensive setup, overall pretty hilarious creatures.

BeardMcStonekeg

2013-08-24, 08:14 PM

So a friend of mine that I made over the course of recruiting for a game I'm currently running doesn't really see eye to eye on me when it comes to the gap in utility, power and all around versatile competence of spell using classes compared to mundane classes.

In that case, a duel won't prove much!

Make two identical dungeons with a variety challenges (traps, locks, environmental hazards, a variety of enemy and sizes of enemy groups, that a character of their level should be able to overcome by themselves with a 50% chance of surviving. Both enter a dungeon and the character that completes the delve first wins! If neither character makes it before the hourglass in the skeleton's hands (there's always a skeleton!) empties THEY BOTH DIE! MUAHAHAHA! A friendly cleric of the Cayden Cailean will rraise dead etc as necesaary because uh the dungeons are in the basement of a temple and are for practicing for some test only the foolish take or something like that.

Okay, yeah I am just saying make the same game contest into a contest.

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/The_Same_Game_Test_(3.5e_Guideline)

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-24, 08:18 PM

Spend your entire wealth to hire a few thousand peasants with crossbows to fire at him. Even if they only hit on a 20, the shear numbers will take him down. He won't be able to kill more than 10 or so a round.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-24, 08:29 PM

In that case, a duel won't prove much!

Make two identical dungeons with a variety challenges (traps, locks, environmental hazards, a variety of enemy and sizes of enemy groups, that a character of their level should be able to overcome by themselves with a 50% chance of surviving. Both enter a dungeon and the character that completes the delve first wins! If neither character makes it before the hourglass in the skeleton's hands (there's always a skeleton!) empties THEY BOTH DIE! MUAHAHAHA! A friendly cleric of the Cayden Cailean will rraise dead etc as necesaary because uh the dungeons are in the basement of a temple and are for practicing for some test only the foolish take or something like that.

Okay, yeah I am just saying make the same game contest into a contest.

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/The_Same_Game_Test_(3.5e_Guideline)

You might have wanted to read through the thread before posting this. :smallwink:

Bovine Colonel

2013-08-24, 09:16 PM

When is this duel taking place?

DMVerdandi

2013-08-24, 09:28 PM

Why would I ever get into one one one range with him? :smallconfused:

And he was using Leadership to get that Kirin, but he realized the one he was using stats for was 3rd Party and he is tweaking his build to remove Leadership because of how crazy broken/defeating the purpose it is.

He still thinks he can one-shot Planetars though and render them non-factors in the fight.

Because if he is running an anti-magic field, then magical effects won't work. SURE you can theoretically use stuff like shrunken hats, and giant shrunken boulders works, but at the same time, so does beating the guy at his own game, melee combat.
After all, that is what the wizard accels at at anyway. Being Mr take your job.
If you were level 16, you could turn into a cloud giant as well, and just totally crush.

And that was my point, really. For the drop in dex, giant form gives you so much strength and con for the trade, that it's worth it even if you simply just keep blasting or being god.

Furthermore, if said barbarian is just insanely anti-magical, then a very real, very mundane gigantic sword is going to **** his life up. If you REALLY had forsight, using true strike + power attack= pain.
fact of the matter is, you can buff yourself WAY stronger and more durable than this guy. Because of that, generally you can just crush him quickly, even if he does have on an anti-magic field, because your weapon's reach alone is farther than his.

Best part is, you don't loose your spellcasting.
You can if you use transformation, which just adds insult to injury, but you don't have to.

Just have these spells working off of a contingency, and give them a command word, so they all go off at the same time. It hurts in no way. Sure you can bind creatures from planes theoretically, but it is less disrespectful, and far easier to say, "your power comes from others".

Do it yourself and slay him.

If there was no anti-magic, then just use some rays and destroy him, or something...

Amridell

2013-08-24, 10:10 PM

If you don't already have one, I'd be more than happy to run it for you guys.

Otherwise, as we've mentioned, he'll have flight, and probably be building to be a complete mage slayer. The best thing you can do is the summon suggestion+the giant suggestion. Use your Ioun stone and Mage's tattoo to become a cloud giant, disintegrate his mount, and **** him up with all your planar buddies and a greatsword four times the size of him. Celerity is a good option is you can get it.

If this doesn't appeal, turn into a dragon, have some planar summons by you, and play God. One sided fight, even without all of our advice, it's simply very easy to optimize a Wizard to beat a barbarian. Maybe a fighter specifically built to kill Wizards would work. Maybe.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-25, 06:39 AM

Because if he is running an anti-magic field, then magical effects won't work. SURE you can theoretically use stuff like shrunken hats, and giant shrunken boulders works, but at the same time, so does beating the guy at his own game, melee combat.
After all, that is what the wizard accels at at anyway. Being Mr take your job.
If you were level 16, you could turn into a cloud giant as well, and just totally crush.

And that was my point, really. For the drop in dex, giant form gives you so much strength and con for the trade, that it's worth it even if you simply just keep blasting or being god.

Furthermore, if said barbarian is just insanely anti-magical, then a very real, very mundane gigantic sword is going to **** his life up. If you REALLY had forsight, using true strike + power attack= pain.
fact of the matter is, you can buff yourself WAY stronger and more durable than this guy. Because of that, generally you can just crush him quickly, even if he does have on an anti-magic field, because your weapon's reach alone is farther than his.

Best part is, you don't loose your spellcasting.
You can if you use transformation, which just adds insult to injury, but you don't have to.

Just have these spells working off of a contingency, and give them a command word, so they all go off at the same time. It hurts in no way. Sure you can bind creatures from planes theoretically, but it is less disrespectful, and far easier to say, "your power comes from others".

Do it yourself and slay him.

If there was no anti-magic, then just use some rays and destroy him, or something...

Anti-magic field would turn off Giant Form too. :smallconfused:

And he just gave me his build:

When I'm raging:
FORT: 33
5 (Stat) + 4 (Rage CON boost) + 10 (Superstition) + 5 (Cloak of Resistance) + 9 (Class)
REF: 25
5 (Stat) + 10 (Superstition) + 5 (Cloak of Resistance) + 5 (Class)
WILL: 28
2 (Stat) + 3 (Rage) + 10 (Superstition) + 5 (Cloak of Resistance) +1 (Trait) +2 (Iron Will) + 5 (Class)

And here is a quick work up of my post-mount barbarian:
15th Level Invulnerable Rager
HP: 180 (Average HD + CON)
Human
Favored Class: 15 Superstition
Heart of the Fields (Engineering)
Stats (25):
STR: 16 (-10); +2Advancement +2 Racial +4 Item = 24
CON: 16 (-10); +4 Item = 20
DEX: 16 (-10); +4 Item = 20
WIS: 13 (-3); +1 Advancement = 14
INT: 7 (+4)
CHA: 7 (+4)
9 feats; 240,000 gp
7 Rage Powers

Feats:
1) Iron Will (+2 Will)
2) Combat Reflexes (Make a number of AoO equal to Dex Mod +1)
3) Dazing Assault (Daze Opponents)
4) Power Attack (-4a, +8 dmg)
5) Raging Vitality (+2 CON when raging; rage does not end if unconscious)
6) Improved Sunder (+2 to Sunder items, +2 CMD against sunder, sunder does not provoke)
7) Extra Rage Power
8) Extra Rage Power
9) Extra Rage Power
Rage Powers:
1) Lesser Beast Totem (Claw attacks)
2) Greater Beast Totem (Pounce)
3) Beast Totem (+4 Natural AC)
4) Strength Surge (Add STR to one CMB or CMD check)
5) Superstition [+5] (+10 to save against magic effects)
6) Witch Hunter (+4 dmg to spellcasters)
7) Spell Sunder (AM AWESOME)
8) Eater of Magic (Get a second save and temp hp)
9) Internal Fortitude (Immune to sickened and nauseated while raging)
10) Come and Get Me (Also awesome)

Class Features:
Fast Movement
Rage (+6 STR +6 CON +3 Will -2 AC); 38 rounds
Indomitable Will (+4 vs enchantment)
Invulnerability (DR 7/-)
Extreme Endurance (4 pts of Fire Resistance)

Equipment:
Flawed Scarlet and Green Ioun Stone: -8,000 gp
+4 Adamantine Furious Greatsword: -52,000 gp
Belt of Physical Perfection +4: -64,000 gp
Cloak of Resistance +5: -25,000
Composite Longbow: -100 gp
Gem of Seeing: -75,000 gp
Winged Boots: -16,000 gp

Traits:
Reactionary (+2 to initiative checks)
Carefully Hidden (+1 to will saves and +2 versus divination)

Thrair

2013-08-25, 07:49 AM

Yah. Superstition Barbarians are about the best anti-caster mundane there is. ESPECIALLY AS HUMAN. The favoured class into Superstition jacks his saves through the damn roof. And with Pounce, he's gonna to be able to close on you quite well. Especially since he seems to have dumped everything into boosting his saves.

You'll need to use spells that either bypass saves or still have strong partial effects on a save.

One in particular: Boneshatter, 4th level spell. Failed save means Exhausted and a moderate chunk of damage. Successful save is Fatigued and even less damage. The big thing here is that either way, it prevents charging. Now, he has Heart of the Fields, so he can ignore one fatigue effect per day. So you'll need to hit him with it twice, unless he blows his save (unlikely, so do not rely on this).

It's actually a good candidate to quicken in this fight, despite eating up one of you max level spells. That way you can double cast it on your first turn and ensure he's at least fatigued, and potentially exhausted. Which will prevent him from charging as well as lower his strength/dex. And, if Exhausted, lower his move speed. And that first round is going to be critical.

As others have said, Contingency a teleport or dimension door set to go off if he closes with you. It will allow you a mulligan on keeping your distance, should he manage to get in range of you. After the first round with the Boneshatters, I'd do as others suggest and use some dispelling. It ignores his high saves and isn't subject to SR (not that he appears to have any). Depending on how the fight is going, you might need to use Greater Invisibility first.

After this, you should have control of the pace of the fight, as he'll be prevented from pouncing you, and possibly grounded while you are flying from Overland Flight. Feel free to wear him down with summons and other spells. You should have victory in the bag by this point.

Maginomicon

2013-08-25, 08:02 AM

And he just gave me his build:Unless he's faking you out or looking at this thread, he was a fool to give you his build ahead of time. Now you can build to counter it.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-25, 08:11 AM

Unless he's faking you out or looking at this thread, he was a fool to give you his build ahead of time. Now you can build to counter it.

The whole point of his argument is that, even if he loses, he will still give any caster ever Hell 9 times out of 10.

Maginomicon

2013-08-25, 08:22 AM

The whole point of his argument is that, even if he loses, he will still give any caster ever Hell 9 times out of 10.
So basically, if the duel's not going to even settle the argument, then there's no point to the duel in the first place except comparing **** length? Sad. :smallsigh:

Eldariel

2013-08-25, 08:25 AM

*shrug* I don't really see anything relevant. You're going to kill him with your underlings either way. Suppose you could just Enervation him out or whatever; level 15 Wizard can have Spell Perfection after all. Or buff up and kick his ass in melee.

Disable the Gem of True Seeing and he's pretty FUBAR'd vs. Mirror Images/Greater Invisibility/etc. Hell, he needs a hand to use that in the first place.

I don't really see how this is any different from any other mundane; sure, he has high saves but so does a Monk and that doesn't really mean anything unless you specifically target his saves. There's still natural 1, too.

I'm not sure if there's a way to Extraordinary Spell Aim/Mastery of Shaping in PF but if there is, AMF + that would also mean he can never reach a flier in melee since it turns his flight off. Same goes for Dispelling the boots, TBH.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-25, 08:27 AM

So basically, if the duel's not going to even settle the argument, then there's no point to the duel in the first place except comparing **** length? Sad. :smallsigh:

What'll settle the argument is completely crushing his Barbarian. By it not giving Hell to my Wizard, he's proven wrong.

@Thrair: Boneshatter is useless. His Ioun Stone and Internal Fortitude makes him immune to Fatigue and Exhaustion when Raging.

Thrair

2013-08-25, 08:31 AM

So basically, if the duel's not going to even settle the argument, then there's no point to the duel in the first place except comparing **** length? Sad. :smallsigh:

Seems like it. By giving the guy his build, he's giving himself a fallback to save face if his character "loses".

ie, "Well, you built specifically to counter my Barbarian". While conveniently ignoring the fact that his Barbarian is built as almost exclusively anti-caster.

Regardless of how the fight goes, I can tell you straight up: His character is extremely specialized. Your Wizard, which I think has a decent chance of winning even with a generalist build (spell selection being more important for a wizard than build, in most cases), is vastly more useful in general. His guy is good at ignoring spells cast at him and mulching squishy, unprepared casters. Damage-wise, he's rather weak for a Full-BAB class. A Fighter could stomp him into the ground without much difficulty, especially if they just bleed him.

Thrair

2013-08-25, 08:36 AM

@Thrair: Boneshatter is useless. His Ioun Stone and Internal Fortitude makes him immune to Fatigue and Exhaustion when Raging.

Ah, didn't see the Stone. That's a nice combination. Although you could still tag him with it if he loses initiative, before he has a chance to rage. Other than that, you're right on Boneshatter being useless, unless you blow up the stone. (And don't discount that option, though it does cross into meta-gaming a bit).

Maginomicon

2013-08-25, 08:37 AM

What'll settle the argument is completely crushing his Barbarian. By it not giving Hell to my Wizard, he's proven wrong.

@Thrair: Boneshatter is useless. His Ioun Stone and Internal Fortitude makes him immune to Fatigue and Exhaustion when Raging.
Maybe I'm just grossly misunderstanding Rage, and maybe I'm just not familiar with PF, but is there any reason you can't provoke him to start his rage, fly up to where he can't hit you, let the rage wear out, and then pummel him with anything you've got? Time is on your side, isn't it?

It'd be funny, actually. So much whining is done about how fast casters use up their resources, but if this guy's put most of his eggs into the rage basket, why not just prod him until he's used up all of that time-limited resource and then skewer him?

I mean, hell, if I had the option, how I'd handle this in 3.5 is to fly up and use a reserve feat, wearing him down with a war of attrition until he's killed by the simplest of advantages: infinite-use ranged offense and aerial superiority. What's he going to do? Plink away at me with his bow? Please.

Sure, winged boots. Whoopty-doo. Get the ability to destroy them. (It's not meta-gaming to have an anti-item ability in your arsenal. Any caster worth their salt would know that when going up against a mundane, odds are very high they have a critical defense or two that are made possibly solely by magic items.)

Thrair

2013-08-25, 08:53 AM

Yah. This arranged fight seems to have devolved into metagaming, anyways. He counters you, so you counter the counter, so he counter's the counter's counter, ad nauseum.

Although, off topic, that is one thing I don't like about Ioun Stones. I see the Flawed and Cracked ones used to great effect for more often than the normal ones. Mostly because rather than just be inferior versions of the Full Stone, they usually do an either unrelated, but useful, side ability (with most cracked), or provide all the bonuses of the full stone as well as another ability (as in the case of this flawed stone).

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-25, 09:15 AM

Maybe I'm just grossly misunderstanding Rage, and maybe I'm just not familiar with PF, but is there any reason you can't provoke him to start his rage, fly up to where he can't hit you, let the rage wear out, and then pummel him with anything you've got? Time is on your side, isn't it?

He can rage cycle. He doesn't need to spend rounds he's not in my face or dealing with my spells raging.

Sure, winged boots. Whoopty-doo. Get the ability to destroy them. (It's not meta-gaming to have an anti-item ability in your arsenal. Any caster worth their salt would know that when going up against a mundane, odds are very high they have a critical defense or two that are made possibly solely by magic items.)

I was going to open with a scroll of Mage's Disjunction.

Edit:

Here's a rough build I have right now:

15th level Conjurer
HP:
Elf
Favored Class:
Stats (25):
STR: 7 [7 Base]
DEX: 18 [16 Base +2 Race]
CON: 12 [14 Base]
INT: 34 [18 Base +2 Race + 3 Level + 6 Enhancement +5 Inherent]
WIS: 11 [11 Base]
CHA: 7 [7 Base]

Class Features:
Familiar (not sure which to take)
Conjuration (Teleportation) Specialization [Opposed Schools: Enchantment and Necromancy]

Feats (8+3 Bonus feats + Scribe Scroll):
Scribe Scroll

Equipment: 64,650
Headband of Vast Intelligence +6 – 36,000
Tome of Clear Thought +5 – 131,250
Scroll of Mage's Disjunction - 4,050
Scroll of Winds of Vengenace 4,050

Traits:
I don’t know these really; any suggestions?

Spells Known:
0 – All
1 – Blood Money, Magic Missile, Obscuring Mist [11 left and not sure what to take]
2 – Acid Arrow, Fog Cloud [2 left]
3 – Fly, Magical Circle, Sleet Storm, Summon Monster III
4 – Dimension Door, Dimensional Anchor, Solid Fog [1 left]
5 – Lesser Planar Binding, Overland Flight, Summon Monster V, Telepathic Bond
6 – Contingency, Planar Binding, Summon Monster VI, True Seeing
7 – Mage’s Magnificent Mansion, Reverse Gravity Summon Monster VII [1 left]
8 – Greater Planar Binding, Maze, Polar Ray Summon Monster VIII

angry_bear

2013-08-25, 09:51 AM

Anti-magic field would turn off Giant Form too. :smallconfused:

And he just gave me his build:

Not seeing his AC listed, but honestly I think you're best off to just start flying and making sure to ground him, then blast him with orbs. All of his saves are incredibly high, but I'm not seeing any kind of spell resistance, or any kind of healing... Yeah, I'd probably just go full blaster against him.

Samalpetey

2013-08-25, 10:27 AM

What exactly is 'rage cycling'? I've never heard of it :smallredface:

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-25, 10:34 AM

Not seeing his AC listed, but honestly I think you're best off to just start flying and making sure to ground him, then blast him with orbs. All of his saves are incredibly high, but I'm not seeing any kind of spell resistance, or any kind of healing... Yeah, I'd probably just go full blaster against him.

What orbs?

@Samal:

Rage cycling is where a Barbarian can move in and out of Rage every turn as free actions to turn once per rage powers into at-will powers.

Killer Angel

2013-08-25, 10:39 AM

The whole point of his argument is that, even if he loses, he will still give any caster ever Hell 9 times out of 10.

Then make 3 different caster builds, and kill him 3 times with different tactics.

Der_DWSage

2013-08-25, 10:57 AM

I see he no longer has that Pegasus, and is instead going for Winged Boots. Normally I'd call him foolish, but his high will save can keep them from getting Disjunctioned. Some other tidbits, though...

1)Power Word Blind. He's got less than 200 HP, and there goes any advantages he had in seeing through illusions for 1d4+1 rounds.
2)He doesn't seem to have much in perception. Change out Summon Monster V for Solid Fog, and dink away at him with area-affect spells while he's trying to figure out where you are. Bonus points if you use some effect that lets you see through the fog without a problem.
3)Just...engage in aerial combat, getting him to follow you with his shoes, and Greater Dispel Magic when you hit the 400+ foot mark. Then start using long-range spells.
4)Irresistable Dance seems like it would be hilarious to use in this fight.
5)Hungry Darkness could gnaw away at his CON pretty quickly. Combine it with other no-save ways of stunning him, and you're pretty much guaranteed to win in 10 rounds.
6)If you really want to humiliate him, beat him up with rocks. Specifically, Named Bullet. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/n/named-bullet)

There's just...so, so much he's overlooking, even if you don't bring in outside help via summons. The only thing I'd say is to disregard Mage's Disjunction-the saves will be made with his bonus, which actually makes it fairly unlikely that they'll work. Replace it with Prismatic Sphere (Guaranteed 70 damage, and he may well roll a 1 on SOME of those saves) which you can dance in and out of as you wish. Fly up, cast Prismatic Sphere, and wait for him to close in on you...where you simply have a prepared Greater Dispel for his boots. Or Contingency:Dimension Door, so he has to pass out of it again.

Alternatively, if you really want to ruin his nice boots, use Wall of Suppression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wall-of-suppression) instead. They're all below CL 15, so there goes his magic junk for 15 rounds. Let's see how good he is when he's just a monkey with a sharp stick.

Segev

2013-08-25, 11:02 AM

If he is going to turn off his rage when he can't reach you, use that to your advantage. He can't turn it back on as an immediate action, can he?

If not, get him to lower it to save it. Then, slam him with spells from every direction (through the use of simulacra). His saves will be down by 10 just for not raging. More, for Fort and Will. Limited wish to shove another -7 to a crucial save.

But, again, Maze. No save, and requires int to escape!

lord_khaine

2013-08-25, 11:16 AM

No, it wouldn't.

His point is that his build could be a nightmare to any caster with any build. He knows he will go down, but he contends that he would still wreck face and do well, no matter what.

Thats not what you said in the OP, where it was "against any wizard i could build"

Elricaltovilla

2013-08-25, 11:25 AM

Sunder his ioun stone and you take away his most powerful tool. If he can't rage cycle then he's not going to be able to outlast you.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-25, 11:28 AM

Thats not what you said in the OP, where it was "against any wizard i could build"

That's from three pages ago.

As I've pointed out over the course of this thread, he doesn't simply think he can build a better Barbarian than I can build a Wizard. He thinks that any Barbarian he could build would give hell to any Wizard period, regardless of build.

He doesn't believe there's a disparity between casters and non-casters, at all.

And even if I want to play by your tune, I would still bet that the playground couldn't create a Barbarian that wouldn't lose hard to an equally optimized caster.

Edit:

Sunder his ioun stone and you take away his most powerful tool. If he can't rage cycle then he's not going to be able to outlast you.

How though?

grarrrg

2013-08-25, 11:33 AM

4)Irresistable Dance seems like it would be hilarious to use in this fight.
5)Hungry Darkness could gnaw away at his CON pretty quickly. Combine it with other no-save ways of stunning him, and you're pretty much guaranteed to win in 10 rounds.[/URL]

Irresistible Dance allow "Will Save > Duration becomes 1 round".
He will make his save.

Hungry Darkness DOES give no-save CON damage, but only while he stand around in the Darkness. 1 round of CON damage, and then he takes a Move action.

If he is going to turn off his rage when he can't reach you, use that to your advantage. He can't turn it back on as an immediate action, can he?

"A barbarian can enter rage as a free action"

Yah. Superstition Barbarians are about the best anti-caster mundane there is. ESPECIALLY AS HUMAN. The favoured class into Superstition jacks his saves through the damn roof. And with Pounce, he's gonna to be able to close on you quite well. Especially since he seems to have dumped everything into boosting his saves.

You'll need to use spells that either bypass saves or still have strong partial effects on a save.

:smallsigh:
Considering that just about every time I've posted in this thread I have mentioned "He will have massive saves"........

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-25, 11:37 AM

:smallsigh:
Considering that just about every time I've posted in this thread I have mentioned "He will have massive saves"........

I heard you, for what it's worth.

I just forgot that Mage's Disjunction allows a save. >.>

Since Magnificent Mansion mentions it can't be affected by outside forces, does that mean it can't be sundered by the Barbarian?

Samalpetey

2013-08-25, 11:47 AM

What orbs?

@Samal:

Rage cycling is where a Barbarian can move in and out of Rage every turn as free actions to turn once per rage powers into at-will powers.

Wouldn't that just make him run out of rage uses really quickly?

PaintByBlood

2013-08-25, 12:05 PM

Forgive me if Pathfinder changed this, or I'm remembering something wrong... but if he turns rage on and off as a free action only, then that means that he wouldn't be getting the defensive benefits (+4 AC, +10 to saves, reroll saves) without wasting rage uses, because turning it off is a free action - an action you can only take on your turn.
So he turns it on as a free action, and that is a use of 1 turn of rage. If he turns it off at the end that turn, he doesn't have to use it next turn, so might save a turn... but he shouldn't be getting those defenses while it is off, making him significantly more vulnerable.

Is there writing to specifically say this is not the case? Otherwise, I see no reason you can't challenge him to either waste his rage, or lower his defenses. Not that 19 Fort is trivial, but 15 Will is a lot more manageable.

Edit: Where is he getting 38 rounds of rage from, anyway? Also, if you can nuke that stone in any way, then he can't do the cycling effectively. And, just curious, is it actually clear in the rules that immunity to sickened/nauseated cancels effects that were already ongoing?

Der_DWSage

2013-08-25, 12:06 PM

Irresistible Dance allow "Will Save > Duration becomes 1 round".
He will make his save.

Hungry Darkness DOES give no-save CON damage, but only while he stand around in the Darkness. 1 round of CON damage, and then he takes a Move action.

I didn't say Irresistible Dance would be useful, just hilarious. And even if it's only one round...it's still that one round that he's capering like a fairy.

So far as Hungry Darkness goes-you literally did not look at the other half of my sentence there.

5)Hungry Darkness could gnaw away at his CON pretty quickly. Combine it with other no-save ways of stunning him, and you're pretty much guaranteed to win in 10 rounds.

PaintByBlood

2013-08-25, 12:22 PM

So far as Hungry Darkness goes-you literally did not look at the other half of my sentence there.

And, actually, if this can be accomplished effectively, you should only need 8 rounds of Con damage. The +4 item shouldn't keep him alive once his true Con hits 0, right?

Talothorn

2013-08-25, 12:45 PM

combine the Hungry Darkness with a wand of Enervation.

Eldariel

2013-08-25, 01:13 PM

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-25, 01:48 PM

Also, don't forget lesser planer binding. Nothing says you can't bind a ton of low level creatures with useful no-save damage abilites. If all else fails, get things with UMD and hand them each a scroll of magic missile.

If the first round of combat opens up with 20-30 magic missile attacks at his mount while you stand behind a literal wall of called flesh, you get the advantage on that critical first round.

Segev

2013-08-25, 01:55 PM

"A barbarian can enter rage as a free action"

A free action still can only be taken on your turn, unless it is an immediate action.

Therefore, if he turns it off to save the rounds for when the wizard is in reach, he has to have it off on the wizard's turn or it will count against his rounds per day.

If it is off at any point when it's the wizard's turn, he can be shut down far more easily.

Talothorn

2013-08-25, 01:56 PM

I would recommend against taking Necromancy as a prohibited school. Too many good debuffs and SoDs.

Also, if you use maze, you can spend those 10 minutes creating a pit under where he will reappear and filling it with your choice of fun:

I would make a 60' deep pit, 20' radius.

Transmute Rock to Mud -> Transmute Mud to Stone (after he reappears and splashes in)

Hungry Darkness, Acid Fog, summoned creatures, bound outsiders, biting rats, whatever.

Alips (not sure how to pull them in PF, in 3.5 summon undead III is great)
they are incorporeal and do wis damage on a touch attack. Sets you up for that scroll of Imprisonment.)

During prep time, Create Greater Undead will let you send shadows into the hungry darkness, just to be a jerk.

As I already said, hit him with enervation a few times from a wand. No save, so you don't need to worry about the lower caster level, etc.

Heck, once he is stuck in the pit, be a jerk and just use alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags, thunderstones, and unholy water.

Or fill the pit with lava. or lava and a fire elemental. or lava and a decanter of endless water.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-25, 02:34 PM

I suggest against using Tier 9 scrolls. Indeed, I suggest against using anything at all that costs you anything. It'll prove your point much better if you defeat him with no resources expended beyond spell slots. Also, Moment of Prescience is pretty key to making sure you get whatever you want with Planar Binding. Spell list without that is unacceptable (it's also a useful all-day buff).

I did not know about Moment of Prescience, so thank you very much for that mention. But that'd take up spell slots for Greater Planar Binding, and mean fewer potent outsiders, correct?

And if I shouldn't spend money, should that mean I shouldn't spend the gold on the Int boosting items?

And Polar Ray is just a bad spell; rather metamagic a lower level damage spell if you really want to blast. I definitely think you should learn Enervation; one of the better Touch Attacks and it's a pretty hard-to-resist way of killing him. Also, Greater Dispel Magic can disable magic items (as can AMF) and without save so that's out of the equation.

For some reason I thought Enervation gave a save, which is why I looked at Polar Ray.

I don't know why I forgot to grab Greater Dispel. Maybe it was because I only get 4 spells known of each level above 1st and 2 need to be Conjuration...hm....

I definitely suggest you learn some of the higher level Summon Monsters; they're really, really good. SMVI begins to get nice and it just gets better from there.

Do them over some battlefield control? If Magnificient Mansion can't be sundered, I was thinking of hiding in it and do all my summons in there while he dukes it out with my bound outsiders.

Elricaltovilla

2013-08-25, 02:59 PM

Ioun stones have AC 24. Use a ranged touch attack spell to hit it so you don't provoke an AoO and just take it out.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-25, 03:06 PM

Ioun stones have AC 24. Use a ranged touch attack spell to hit it so you don't provoke an AoO and just take it out.

How much HP do they have?

Eldariel

2013-08-25, 03:24 PM

I did not know about Moment of Prescience, so thank you very much for that mention. But that'd take up spell slots for Greater Planar Binding, and mean fewer potent outsiders, correct?

And if I shouldn't spend money, should that mean I shouldn't spend the gold on the Int boosting items?

No, I mean, have gear, don't use consumables. Also, Greater Planar Binding is days/level; you should be fine even with few less castings. It's more important to ensure you automake the check than that you have that many minions.

It might be a bit wasteful to get +5 Int Tome tho; +3 should suffice and still leave you money to get other stuff.

For some reason I thought Enervation gave a save, which is why I looked at Polar Ray.

I don't know why I forgot to grab Greater Dispel. Maybe it was because I only get 4 spells known of each level above 1st and 2 need to be Conjuration...hm....

You are a Wizard. You can learn spells from scrolls/other Wizards. This table (www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Adding-Spells-to-a-Wizard-s-Spellbo) lists the prices other Wizards usually charge you for copying a spell of each level.

You're really not limited at all. Also, note, if you want damage spells it's more efficient to summon something that can summon something indefinitely. Also, Telekinesis + Greater Magic Weapon'd swords is a pretty hilarious way of attacking his AC (if you use Beads of Karma (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/beads-prayer-strand) with Use Magic Device [DC 21 to mimic a first level Cleric] & Orange Prism Ioun Stone, you have Caster Level 20 for +5 Swords), and with ~32 Int you'd easily be looking at +23 to hit (7 BAB + 11 Int + 5 Weapon; could use Haste/Heroism/etc. & al. too). You can carry 'em in e.g. Bag of Holding and launch 'em at your opponent.

That's just one of the million forms of attack you can use, of course, but one that targets his AC which might be hilarious. Note that using larger swords (up to Telekinesis capacity) nets you more damage on each individual sword and thus makes DR less of an issue.

Do them over some battlefield control? If Magnificient Mansion can't be sundered, I was thinking of hiding in it and do all my summons in there while he dukes it out with my bound outsiders.

I dunno, I'll leave the details up to you. You only need so much BFC tho. There are plenty of good options tho.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-25, 03:33 PM

No, I mean, have gear, don't use consumables. Also, Greater Planar Binding is days/level; you should be fine even with few less castings. It's more important to ensure you automake the check than that you have that many minions.

Point.

It might be a bit wasteful to get +5 Int Tome tho; +3 should suffice and still leave you money to get other stuff.

Gotcha.

You are a Wizard. You can learn spells from scrolls/other Wizards. This table (www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Adding-Spells-to-a-Wizard-s-Spellbo) lists the prices other Wizards usually charge you for copying a spell of each level.

I would say that he could argue that it goes outside the 1 week prep time, but I'm sure I can talk it past him.

You're really not limited at all. Also, note, if you want damage spells it's more efficient to summon something that can summon something indefinitely. Also, Telekinesis + Greater Magic Weapon'd swords is a pretty hilarious way of attacking his AC (if you use Beads of Karma (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/beads-prayer-strand) with Use Magic Device [DC 21 to mimic a first level Cleric] & Orange Prism Ioun Stone, you have Caster Level 20 for +5 Swords), and with ~32 Int you'd easily be looking at +23 to hit (7 BAB + 11 Int + 5 Weapon; could use Haste/Heroism/etc. & al. too). You can carry 'em in e.g. Bag of Holding and launch 'em at your opponent.

That's just one of the million forms of attack you can use, of course, but one that targets his AC which might be hilarious. Note that using larger swords (up to Telekinesis capacity) nets you more damage on each individual sword and thus makes DR less of an issue.

How're you getting Caster level of 20?

Eldariel

2013-08-25, 03:46 PM

I would say that he could argue that it goes outside the 1 week prep time, but I'm sure I can talk it past him.

You're a Wizard. Part of what your class does is have a spellbook and learn spells during adventures or whatever. This has nothing to do with your encounter, being aware of the opponent or whatever and is a part of character creation equipping.

How're you getting Caster level of 20?

Beads of Karma from the linked Strand of Prayer Beads activated via. Use Magic Device for +4 and Orange Prism Ioun Stone for +1 with 15 base = 20.

grarrrg

2013-08-25, 04:20 PM

A free action still can only be taken on your turn, unless it is an immediate action.

Therefore, if he turns it off to save the rounds for when the wizard is in reach, he has to have it off on the wizard's turn or it will count against his rounds per day.

Forgive me if Pathfinder changed this, or I'm remembering something wrong...
So he turns it on as a free action, and that is a use of 1 turn of rage. If he turns it off at the end that turn, he doesn't have to use it next turn, so might save a turn... but he shouldn't be getting those defenses while it is off, making him significantly more vulnerable.

At the beginning or end of his turn he can turn the Rage off and back on again right away. And even if he has to spend 2 rounds worth of Rage every round, that still gives him around 20 rounds to 'play'.
If the combat isn't over by round 20, then something has gone horribly wrong (or horribly right, depending on the strategy).

Edit: Where is he getting 38 rounds of rage from, anyway? Also, if you can nuke that stone in any way, then he can't do the cycling effectively. And, just curious, is it actually clear in the rules that immunity to sickened/nauseated cancels effects that were already ongoing?

Rage is 2xlevel + CON mod + 2
(technically written as "4+CON at first level, +2 every level after)
Level 15 means 30 rounds there, add the plus 2 and he only needs a +6 from his CON.
Which looking at his stat sheet, something is a little off, but he most definitely does have 36+ rounds of Rage to work with.

PaintByBlood

2013-08-25, 04:33 PM

Ah, I missed the part about it being increased by level up, and just saw 4 + CON.

But, I get that he can turn it on and off in his turn. My point is this: no matter how much he does that to cycle the 1-per-rages or whatever, he can't use that to prevent himself from running out at some point, because it still has to either cost him the rage, or leave him defenseless. It's not necessarily the strategy to go with, but there should be no way for him to get unending rage.
Since Fly lasts 150 rounds or so, one could out-fly him if he is above a light load or wearing greater than light armor, or as long as he doesn't have a Pegasus (but then there is some ability to outmaneuver at least), or if you kill his boots. At some point, rage goes away, or he puts it down: then you can strike.

Like I said, not necessarily the strategy, but it should be an option, no?

Segev

2013-08-25, 05:05 PM

I only bring up hitting him "while rage is down" in the event that you ARE using an "outlast" strategy. That is, if you decide to hold off while he burns through rage, spending the time buffing yourself, your minions, summoning more minions, or just using at-will magic items to do fun things.

(I'm fond of an at-will "summon unseen servant" item over and over again. I believe Sleight of Hand can be used Untrained, and it doesn't matter if he notices the Servant picking his pocket, so DC 10 is all it needs. Create 1/round and have them start taking items out of his pockets or off of him.

If that isn't valid, then I'm sure you can think of other things. Like having them carry pre-prepared pages with Explosive Runes on them over to him and reading them next to him in the no-save range.)

So if you're doing an "outlast" strategy, let him burn through all his rounds of rage while you stay out of reach and stack odds further in your favor.

If he DOES then lower his rage to save on rounds of it, THEN you hit him while it's down with a nasty save-or-lose spell or half-dozen from your simulacra.

Thrair

2013-08-25, 06:44 PM

How much HP do they have? Not much. Hardness of 5, with 10 HP. Hitting them is the hard part of destroying them.

Again, I don't like Ioun stones because the system currently makes many flawed or cracked stones BETTER than the Full Stones if you have something to compensate for the flaw. Which, given they are cheaper, is ass-backwards.

For example, the Red and Green he has: Full price stone just gives the Endurance feat. Meh. The cheaper flawed one gives Endurance, as well as converting fatigue and exhaustion into sickened and nauseated.

aleucard

2013-08-25, 07:53 PM

I think that the most important question has yet to be asked, though it's been tangentially mentioned repeatedly. How exactly do you want to deliver this guy's smackdown? Do you want to show him how a wizard can do his job almost as good as he can with a few spell slots, as well as being able to do all sorts of Wizard things? Do you want to set him up against every Eldritch Abomination your warped brain can come up with? Do you want to just drop him in the center of the nearest star? What? At those levels, there's multiple options for a wizard to pull it off, some completely ignoring any anti-magic effects they may have (AMF would nullify all his stuff too, by the way).

Also, I wouldn't want to go the victory-by-items route, unless if the wizard makes them himself (and even that should be limited). That turns into a 'Who has the biggest bank account' fight, and this is trying to compare the two classes themselves in as close to an actual pvp fight as possible. Planar Binding and friends are alright, though.

Dr. Yes

2013-08-25, 08:27 PM

As many posters have mentioned, a Dimension Door contingent on him getting close to you is just about a must. After that, I would just retreat as far as the arena allows and blast him with reach Magic Missiles and quickened reach Magic Missiles. Let him close on you when he's whittled down a bit, then once he's inside of 60 ft. drop a Power Word Stun and put on your best trollface. At that point you could lay down a Hungry Darkness and just re-stun as needed.

On the other hand, you could also Dimension Door again when he gets close and keep blasting away. Sometimes simplicity is best.

Khantin

2013-08-26, 12:26 AM

With proper feats/traits/archetype and 20 dex, you should beat his highest possible init with a nat 1. Spell perfection Battering blast. Maximise, intensified, quickened. Do 200 damage before he gets a turn, using a 7th level spell and a 3rd. With 20 dex and weapon focus ray you only miss him on a nat 1. He gets no save on the damage.

edit: alternatively you could monstrous form into a smaller creature and get lower base dex and no weapon focus ray.

charcoalninja

2013-08-26, 08:11 AM

Free actions can be done anytime, not just your turn. Immediate actions are bigger actions that are taken off turn, so the barbarian can pop up their rage and drop it whenever they want.

zlefin

2013-08-26, 08:25 AM

having a hard time finding what the barb's build is; how well would he do vs a garden variety NPC wizard of appropriate level?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s

Thrair

2013-08-26, 09:00 AM

Free actions can be done anytime, not just your turn. Immediate actions are bigger actions that are taken off turn, so the barbarian can pop up their rage and drop it whenever they want.\

From the OGC:

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.

Only some Free Actions can be used when it's not your turn.

Take a rogue with the Stand Up talent. It makes standing from prone a free action. Dropping prone is also free. If you could do both outside your turn, you'd essentially have a permanent +4 AC to ranged attacks, as you could drop and stand at will when targeted by ranged or ranged touch attacks. Ofc, you wouldn't want to do this in melee, but the point stands.

There's a reason Immediate actions exist. They specifically allow you to act outside of your turn. Free actions are generally on your turn only, unless specified otherwise.

Reddish Mage

2013-08-26, 11:30 AM

Instead of continuing our arguing between one another or showing each other all the threads we have that prove out stand point correct, we decided to do a friendly duel between a Barbarian built by himself against any Wizard I could build.

Really? This is what is so fascinating. Much of what we've been writing is about how you can shut down this crazy Barbarian with one-hand tied behind your back (not using 9th level scrolls, only using summons, and so on). Yet you are saying your friend can bring up threads to back him up? I've yet to see anyone maintain a mundane build can consistently beat well-built Tier 1 spell casters in a fight.

Even your friend seems to agree that wizards have more utility. Where can I find a thread where I can arguments in favor of mundanes at high level?

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-26, 01:01 PM

Even your friend seems to agree that wizards have more utility. Where can I find a thread where I can arguments in favor of mundanes at high level?

My best guess is that it's a thread about doing a ton of hit point damage in combat and they bring up Uberchargers.

mregecko

2013-08-26, 02:18 PM

Mailmain approach:

Battering Blast w/Spell Perfection, Magical Lineage, Intensify, Maximize, Empower.

Base 3rd level (+1 Intensify), (+2 Empower), (+3 Maximize), (-1 Magical Lineage), (-3 Spell Perfection) = 5th level.

At 15th level, 3x Orbs @ (MAX[7d6]=42+0.5*7d6) = 163 average damage.
Can quicken it out of an 8th level slot, or use a medium quicken rod for a second one.

One round, 320 average damage no save. Should be easy to hit his touch AC.

I laugh in your general direction approach:
* Maze his mount, plink him from a distance with magic missiles
* Planar bind an Apostate Devil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/apostate-deimavigga) and have him chain-Blasphemy the barbarian while you kill him with whatever means you desire.
* Scroll of Gate in an Akvan Div (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/divs/div-akvan) to Blasphemy insta-Kill him.
* I just found this spell... Frightful Aspect (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/frightful-aspect). Even if he DOES somehow manage to hit you (which he really shouldn't), he automatically (no-save) becomes frightened and has to flee. For the lulz.
* Summon as many diminutive Swarms as you can. He only has a weapon to do damage to them. They're immune to weapon damage. Laugh evilly.

I'll see if I can come up with some other fun options. The key will be to not go for any ongoing effects that he can spell-sunder, and to not do anything he can save against.

Note: I LOVE the Magnificent Mansion dungeon idea, but I think he can just Spell Sunder the Mansion :-(

mregecko

2013-08-26, 03:58 PM

Also, for the lulz... Why not just boost your AC to the point where he can't hit you? :-P To me that would just be hilarious.

Looking at his build, he's gonna have 15BAB, +10 STR, +5 weapon, minus some Power Attack, maybe Plus some Charging.

Bracers of Armor => +8
Mithril Buckler => +5 (+6 total)
Dex (aim for a 22-24) => +7
Ring of Deflection => +5
Ioun Stone => +1
Amulet of Natural Armor => +5
Haste => +1
Monstrous Physique III (Diminutive Monstrous Humanoid) => +3 Dex (from +6 mod), +1 Natural Armor, +3 Size => +7
** Note: Some people would say there are no listed Diminutive Monstrous Humanoids. In that case, use Polymorph any Object into a Diminutive Fey (like an Atomie).

AC of 50. He needs a natural 20 to hit you.

There are probably a few other spells that would help you out as well.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-26, 04:16 PM

Segev

2013-08-26, 04:36 PM

Doesn't that require him to hit?

georgie_leech

2013-08-26, 04:43 PM

Just a CMD check. You could get around it though by layering defences such that any one spell lost doesn't drop your AC enough. Effects can overlap, after all.

Segev

2013-08-26, 04:48 PM

CMB comes against CMD; aren't there spells for taht, too? Or does this finally give meleeists something they can use against casters with at least marginal effect?

ryu

2013-08-26, 04:54 PM

If by marginal effect you mean some casters shouldn't start the first ten minutes of battle by continuously breakdancing then yes. Yes it does mean that sometimes.

mregecko

2013-08-26, 05:40 PM

He can just Spell Sunder.

True, but the only thing he can Spell Sunder is the Monstrous Physique. I'm fairly confident with a little bit of optimization I could make up that +7 AC.

Off the top of my head, I forgot:
+5 defending weapon
Dodge feat
+5 Dex from Wish Abuse

etc etc.

It's pretty easy to get to unhittable AC's (against this particular barbarian) without relying on a single spell.

It doesn't necessarily prove the resourcefulness of a Wizard.

But it does show that basically any character can become immune to the one thing the Barbarian CAN do.

Khantin

2013-08-26, 08:19 PM

True, but the only thing he can Spell Sunder is the Monstrous Physique. I'm fairly confident with a little bit of optimization I could make up that +7 AC.

Off the top of my head, I forgot:
+5 defending weapon
Dodge feat
+5 Dex from Wish Abuse

etc etc.

It's pretty easy to get to unhittable AC's (against this particular barbarian) without relying on a single spell.

It doesn't necessarily prove the resourcefulness of a Wizard.

But it does show that basically any character can become immune to the one thing the Barbarian CAN do.

He can only spell sunder the monstrous physique but he can still sunder anything you are wearing or wielding. Say goodbye to your gear if he gets in melee.

His CMB for sunder is going to be around +50, for one attack a round and +35 for the rest. It is unlikely you can get your cmd to 65+ to reliable resist his sunder attempts.

The easiest way to win this fight BY FAR, is just to win init, go invis, and ddoor outside his move+sight range. play cat and mouse until he runs out of rage or drops it to conserve turns and then he loses his high saves and some of his immunities will likely die in 1 SoD.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-27, 07:15 AM

He can only spell sunder the monstrous physique but he can still sunder anything you are wearing or wielding. Say goodbye to your gear if he gets in melee.

His CMB for sunder is going to be around +50, for one attack a round and +35 for the rest. It is unlikely you can get your cmd to 65+ to reliable resist his sunder attempts.

The easiest way to win this fight BY FAR, is just to win init, go invis, and ddoor outside his move+sight range. play cat and mouse until he runs out of rage or drops it to conserve turns and then he loses his high saves and some of his immunities will likely die in 1 SoD.

I don't even need to really win Initiative if I just set up a Continent DD.

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-27, 07:35 AM

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-27, 01:07 PM

Yes, but the contingency is best left at that, a contingency. If you win initiative, you can use your own actions and save the contingency for when he pulls out some means of detection you didn't think of.

Well, then should I contingency it off a verbal command? Just doing it off distance was for an opening move.

dascarletm

2013-08-27, 01:27 PM

careful with word contingencies.

Two things:

1. Obvious- Pick a word you won't say. Even if it is rare. (I had a DM get me on this. While hilarious, would screw over your fight.)

2. Dependent- I've known some people that would argue: while speaking is a free action, on the first round of combat (or surprise rounds) you don't have a dex bonus, and wouldn't be able to react and speak during another players turn. Also some say that it isn't immediate, thus no speaking off your turn. Make sure that will work.

If you can't use a word or phrase, have the trigger be when the barbarian comes within 6 feet of me.

On a side note, did someone ask when this is taking place? I might have missed it. Would you be so kind as to inform me, and then post the battlelog after?

Segev

2013-08-27, 01:32 PM

Spoken commands take a standard action, I think, when used to deliberately activate anything. :/

This is to prevent precisely this kind of abuse, such as with wands or command-activated items.

If you're not basing the contingency off of "the start of the fight," then you should enter the fight with a persistant Indomitability and trigger the Contingency on being reduced to 1 hp. You'll want to do something about saves triggered by "massive damage" rules in such a case, as well. Probably a Limited Wish that you won't die from that specific cause.

If you're abusing Magic Jar, you can chain-Jar a few and Contingency each of them for something, as well.

Urpriest

2013-08-27, 01:36 PM

Put Contingency on a trigger like "when combat begins and I am unable to act" or "when an opponent attacks me and I am unable to act".

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-27, 05:00 PM

dascarletm

2013-08-27, 05:03 PM

At that point, it would be better to just have it go off at the start of combat. The trigger can only trigger that first round with that wording, so if it doesn't go off then, it's wasted.

I would recommend a DD contingency set to port you the max range straight up if the barbarian comes within 30 feet of you. This means he can catch you by surprise exactly once and you survive. This could be the first round or the twentieth.

I'd make the range a little shorter.

Assume he can get 10ft reach, and a size buff, that gives them what 15 ft. melee range? Make it 1 foot over what you would expect his melee range to be.

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-27, 05:29 PM

See, I think that is just tempting fate for him to have a trick up his sleeve that extends his reach just 5ft past what you expect. Keep it simple and keep it a good measure past what you think is possible, not just probable.

Remember, distance is YOUR friend. You have no reason to get close to him.

ryu

2013-08-27, 07:06 PM

That and lets assume he doesn't have some trick that lets you stay relatively close. Stay far anyway because actions he wastes on extra distance are more time you can use to end him.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-28, 07:19 AM

That and lets assume he doesn't have some trick that lets you stay relatively close. Stay far anyway because actions he wastes on extra distance are more time you can use to end him.

What tricks could he possibly have?

Occasional Sage

2013-08-28, 07:32 AM

When will this arena actually take place?

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-28, 07:36 AM

When will this arena actually take place?

Probably sometime later this week. He has a weird work schedule and I just started Fall Semester. Our schedules don't really match up.

ryu

2013-08-28, 07:50 AM

Throwing axe with returning property, a bunch of shrunken balls of heavy metal that unshrink on command, and a few other things would make sense as the best weapons for medium range when charging isn't available as the kill button. Can't use arrows because of the sheer number of ways to no sell archery in general.

Fouredged Sword

2013-08-28, 10:06 AM

That is why one should prebuff with a scroll of Winds of Vengeance, or whatever that spell it.

It prevents ALL ranged attacks aimed at you. It's just that powerful of a buff.

Reddish Mage

2013-08-28, 11:58 AM

stuff about what sort of thread could his friend have in support of mundanes that equal wizards in any way.

My best guess is that it's a thread about doing a ton of hit point damage in combat and they bring up Uberchargers.

That's what your friend has in his camp? Sheer damage numbers? That is ridiculous. At a decent level wizards don't even have to do damage to take out their opponent. If what your friends best idea is that a mundane build can out-damage a wizard he is making a very poor argument indeed.

Have you guys set up a date and time for this dual yet? Please tell us how it goes.

TroubleBrewing

2013-08-28, 02:48 PM

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-28, 04:51 PM

Cast Euphoric Tranquility through your familiar. Spend the next 10 rounds summoning your hordes of infernal superbeings. Spend 5 rounds maneuvering them into position. When peace time is over, ruin him.

That spell is pretty nice. Pity that it does require getting into touch range, which makes it not much of an option, even with a familiar.

Karoht

2013-08-28, 04:59 PM

That spell is pretty nice. Pity that it does require getting into touch range, which makes it not much of an option, even with a familiar.
Touch range is easy to fix.
Spectral Hand. Seriously, it's a thing.
Sure, he might Spell Sunder it. Big Whoop. Get a wand of Spectral Hand.
Moreover, you can do things like cast buff spells on your Spectral Hand.
Like Invisibility.

Lastly, most players think in 2D terms, especially melee.
Poke him with the invisibile Spectral Hand from directly above.
Ghoul Touch and Frigid Touch are pretty awesome too.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-28, 05:07 PM

Touch range is easy to fix.
Spectral Hand. Seriously, it's a thing.
Sure, he might Spell Sunder it. Big Whoop. Get a wand of Spectral Hand.
Moreover, you can do things like cast buff spells on your Spectral Hand.
Like Invisibility.

Lastly, most players think in 2D terms, especially melee.
Poke him with the invisibile Spectral Hand from directly above.
Ghoul Touch and Frigid Touch are pretty awesome too.

You can buff a Spectral Hand?

Jack_Simth

2013-08-28, 05:19 PM

You can buff a Spectral Hand?
It's debatable. You'll need to figure out whether or not it counts as a creature, but it does have some stats.

Tanuki Tales

2013-08-28, 07:00 PM

It's debatable. You'll need to figure out whether or not it counts as a creature, but it does have some stats.

Is it debatable as in there's a RAW answer and a RAI answer or...?

Segev

2013-08-28, 07:05 PM

Well, it has to be either a creature or an object, and Invisibility can be used on either.

Jack_Simth

2013-08-28, 09:46 PM

Is it debatable as in there's a RAW answer and a RAI answer or...?
It's debatable as the aspect you need to know about to determine whether or not it's a valid target is poorly defined.

If it's a creature, then any buff you could apply to a person you could apply to the Spectral Hand.

If it's an object, then any buff you could apply to an object you could apply to the spectral hand.

If it's an arbitrary spell effect (such as, say, Obscuring Mist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/obscuringMist.htm)), then any spell you could apply to an arbitrary spell effect you could apply to the spectral hand.

The trouble is, it's not clearly defined what it is. In the case of, say, a Summoning spell, it's obvious - you've got the full stats of the critter. In the case of, say, Obscuring Mist, it's obvious - it's mist. Except as stated, it acts like we'd expect fog to act (that's actually in the rules, but I don't have the time to dig through it at the moment). If it were like, say, Wall of Stone, we'd likewise know how to treat it.

But it's not. It's got some stats (saves, AC, HP), but not all of them. It doesn't fit cleanly into any of the expected categories. It doesn't have a real-world analog.

So you'll get completely different calls from different DM's on what exactly you can do to or with it. Yet there's nowhere you can point to in order to say 'this is wrong' when one DM says it is treated as a creature (and anything that affects creatures can affect it), another says it is treated as an object (and anything that affects creatures can affect it), and another says it's treated as an arbitrary spell effect (so only things that can affect arbitrary spell effects can do anything other than how things are spelled out in the spell itself). I call it debatable in the sense that there's no clear answer beyond any specific DM's table.

Does my position make sense?