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People Wonder
2013-08-21, 05:41 PM
I am the DM of a DnD group that does not have much experience, however, I would not say we are new. The problem is that within my group there is one person that absolutely hates being something that has already been put forth by the book or other people, so it seems he tries to create something that has already been done, but in a new way that makes him feel like he made it

That's fine and all but here is the problem: we are inexperienced. I have told him over and over no homebrew and I get complained at for not allowing him to do so, because I never felt ready, but I feel bad because I know as the DM I am supposed to create a more enjoyable environment for my players. So, for the 1st time since my very first campaign, I have allowed him to create a homebrew class.

Now that you have seen the problem, here is my proposed solution: any homebrew (of any sort including pots) must be posted on these forums, reviewed (helpfully commented upon) by 5 people, and get 10 net upvotes (10 more than downvotes). I guess the reason I am posting this is to ask the question(s) that I am still unsure about: do I even allow it? Is this a good system? what could i do to fix this system? And generally, your opinion on homebrew? Any feedback would be awesome, as well as any reviews for the homebrew (coming in the future, as our campaign still has time).

Thanks for your consideration.

Glimbur
2013-08-21, 05:46 PM
I would be surprised to see ten responses to most homebrew within a reasonable time frame, let alone ten up votes. This community is helpful, but I would suggest that it is your game* so the ultimate decision should come from you.

You might use your best judgement on approving or disallowing homebrew, but throw in the caveat that you might have been wrong to allow something. It will be harder to take away a toy after it has been used, but it is an option.

*It's everyone's game, but you are the one asked to set the rules.

AmberVael
2013-08-21, 05:50 PM
Problem 1: There are no upvotes.

Problem 2: Getting people to comment on your work, especially if you are new, is not exactly easy. Five helpful full reviews may be hard to come by.

Problem 3: It will be a time consuming process, so don't expect anything near immediate results.


That all being said, you can at least give it a shot. My recommendation would be to eschew any exact numbers though- just make the call with your best judgment, as aided by what reviews you can get. If it really doesn't get any attention, maybe give it a pass to be safe.

Hanuman
2013-08-21, 06:13 PM
PEACH
please evaluate and critique honestly

add it to a title of a post to get feedback


Read the stickies on how to balance homebrew.

All homebrew should be subject to a few things in a newer player game:

1) Flux, let the DM have full control over the rules of the homebrew class at all times, it doesn't have to stay the same, nor do the mechanics. Don't let players stay in ruts of brokeness, or even lacking power such as a player multiclassing twice and paying for it 10 sessions later.

2) Reference existing mechanics, read up on the tier system for dnd classes and why tiers exist. It's ok to make a powerful character, but giving a wizard an animal companion instead of metamagic feats is a bit much.

3) Read up on source, google "crystalkeep creator" for some quick index references then let that guide you through sourcebooks, or do it slowly.

4) Become a better homebrewer and DM even if you don't plan to homebrew or DM. Ask questions on the forums, try making a full class, spell, feat, doesn't matter. As for DMing, here's a great podcast which will take you a few weeks to go through: http://www.feartheboot.com/ftb/


As far as making sure something is balanced, have the DM post the class on the forums, it's the DM's job to houserule and help the players homebrew content in his or her campaign. It's always the DM's world and rules so let them deal with it.

Tavar
2013-08-21, 10:48 PM
Homebrew it a bit complicated, especially without knowing the group and playstyle of a given group. I mean, I could easily see some of my favorite pieces being under or over powered, depending on the group.

That said, while there's quite a bit of bad homebrew out there, there's also some good stuff out there.

You might try posting links in this thread to the threads he creates. It might help get a few more responses.

Kane0
2013-08-21, 11:04 PM
Experience is the best way of gaging how homebrew, or any introduced material for that matter, will fare in your game. The best thing you can do is get comfortable with trying it out, seeing how it goes and learning the nuances of the game. If something strikes you as too good or too bad then patch it up so everyone is happy, and don't be afraid to post it here to get other people's opinions too.

Another good idea is to ask around for good homebrews your player can use, if he's ok with that. Many people here have excellent 'brew ready to go.

Oh, maybe let him use smaller homebrew things first if your wary of things going wrong. Try races, feats or spells before a full 20 level class to minimize problems of an OP or UP brew.

Tavar
2013-08-21, 11:33 PM
While there's some merit to that, I generally find that the different things are different enough that you can't really cross-apply what you lean from one to another. What's more important is understanding the underlying system(which the former can help with, to a degree).

Gadzooks27
2013-08-22, 12:06 AM
The major problem I see is that This site is full of inexperienced but eager Home brew-lovers.
Take the Black Blood Vanguard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15688593&postcount=16), for example. Now it seems full of flavor, and the accompanying picture is cool. As a result, the latest homebrew contest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297844) has this class always in the lead. Many think that the amount of effort put forth into this class makes it a brilliant a wonderfully put-together class. However, there are many problems with this class; There is no room for prestiging, it's full of a new set of game mechanics including something called "madness tokens", which lead to more complicated rules to remember (for the DM and the Player), and many of the powers attained early on by ichor and black blood are way too OP for an average setting.
This much can be seen as obvious for many of the experienced players here, but the BB Vanguard has not once fallen behind on this chat thread.

So consider this- these are the majority of the up/down votes you will recieve.

Gadzooks27
2013-08-22, 12:15 AM
Tell him what my DM told me- Homebrew can be cool, but you guys are both inexperienced and you have no way of knowing if his homebrew will yield balanced or fair results. You don't want to have to take it away after he's had it for a while. You'd rather the homebrew not be introduced at all.

Tavar
2013-08-22, 12:49 AM
As a counter point to some of what he said: no prestiging isn't a straight negative. Hell, I've seen games where the DM doesn't want any prestiging, so such a class would be a boon, not a negative. It depends very much what once wants from the class. It's like saying that the spell choices involved with a full caster is a straight negative: yes, some people don't like that. Other's do. Situational things exist. This ties into most of your other complaints as well: yes, there's a new system. This is not necessarily a bad thing, and is something some people like. Yes, perhaps he wouldn't: great, that's also something that's trivial to filter out.

Your charge against the balance is also problematic, because power is situation. Yes, it looks like this class is designed for higher power stuff. Some do enjoy such games, and in such a situation lower powered options would be just as disruptive as higher powered options are in less optimized games. This can be selected for, though, and in a way that's actually easier than in normal games(three of the most powerful classes in the game are from core: Wizard, Cleric, and Druid. Which also contains perhaps the weakest, Monk, as well as other less powerful options like Fighters and Paladins).

I'd also caution against assuming that the current vote is representative of anything except the current vote regarding that contest. The make up of the contest, and those involved, changes regularly, and even then not everyone joins in, including some of the more prestigious homebrewers.

As for what you suggest in the second post, well, you can do that, but keep in mind: I would say that Wizards has at least as bad a record regarding balance as homebrew. And most of that can be found in the core book.

Lord of Shadows
2013-08-22, 01:39 PM
"as the DM I am supposed to create a more enjoyable environment for my players. So, for the 1st time since my very first campaign, I have allowed him to create a homebrew class."

This is a subject almost every DM has to deal with eventually. Yes, you do want to create an environment where all your players are engaged and want to play the game. When a player here wants to introduce something new, they submit it to me and a I look it over. If I have a question I will ask on a forum somewhere for feedback. This board is a very good source of information, and one thing I have found is that many of the "new" ideas have already been written up in one form or another by someone else already. This can be a real benefit and save a lot of work. Then I decide on any changes and take them back to the player. The object is to come up with something playable that doesn't unbalance the game in that player's favor. One of the quickest ways to show someone an unbalanced creation is to ask if they would want to have to fight a party with one or two of those in it. And there is nothing that says you can't do that, either. What's good for one is good for all.


Now that you have seen the problem, here is my proposed solution: any homebrew (of any sort including pots) must be posted on these forums, reviewed (helpfully commented upon) by 5 people, and get 10 net upvotes (10 more than downvotes). I guess the reason I am posting this is to ask the question(s) that I am still unsure about: do I even allow it? Is this a good system? what could i do to fix this system? And generally, your opinion on homebrew? Any feedback would be awesome, as well as any reviews for the homebrew (coming in the future, as our campaign still has time).

Getting that amount of feedback that quickly could be difficult, as others have said. You can increase your chances by using more than one board (many others have "homebrew" forums: Paizo, ENWorld, etc.). You can also do playtesting with your group, but I would recommend keeping that separate from your regular gaming sessions. "In-game playtesting" can sometimes lead to problems. Just set aside an afternoon or sometime when some of you can get together and run through some encounters and see how it goes. Make sure some of the encounters are against a party/group/etc with one or two of the new class in it. This can sometimes show problems quicker than anything.

People Wonder
2013-08-22, 05:11 PM
Thanks for all of the helpful ideas and insights guys, I think I will spend plenty of time in-game testing his currently proposed class. Honestly, I'm not the most incredible person out there at balancing, which has made me wary of homebrew, and when I try to tweak a class down so that in my mind it isn't so OP, the person that I am mainly speaking of says that the class is becoming underpowered, mainly that's my issue, and I have no clue why I have not thought of play-testing outside of the campaign before. My first campaign i just went and if something got too strong I would do an in-game nerf, which obviously sucks for the player. Any way, if he complains about having a caster that can pretty much do the same thing as a wizard, but better, he probably should see the true power when the tables are turned.

Hanuman
2013-08-23, 11:37 PM
Thanks for all of the helpful ideas and insights guys, I think I will spend plenty of time in-game testing his currently proposed class. Honestly, I'm not the most incredible person out there at balancing, which has made me wary of homebrew, and when I try to tweak a class down so that in my mind it isn't so OP, the person that I am mainly speaking of says that the class is becoming underpowered, mainly that's my issue, and I have no clue why I have not thought of play-testing outside of the campaign before. My first campaign i just went and if something got too strong I would do an in-game nerf, which obviously sucks for the player. Any way, if he complains about having a caster that can pretty much do the same thing as a wizard, but better, he probably should see the true power when the tables are turned.

Post the god damn class.

http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/halolz-dot-com-futurama-thelegendofzelda-shutupandtakemyrupees.jpg

Debihuman
2013-08-24, 02:18 AM
Since you are the DM, you can disallow the class if you feel it is overpowered. If your player is a glory hog (and that can be the case sometimes), it can be a strain on the rest of the players. Ask them what they think of his class (out of game and please be nice about it). If they're okay with it, then it's not a problem. If it is a problem, simply say it's not fair to the rest of the players. People first.

Debby

Freddrick
2013-08-28, 11:45 PM
when I try to tweak a class down so that in my mind it isn't so OP, the person that I am mainly speaking of says that the class is becoming underpowered, mainly that's my issue

As a DM I agree with you. If he wants to play something that special then he should be willing to take a "power hit." Otherwise it sounds like he is trying to create something more overpowered.

Personally I feel there is enough variety in all of the prestige classes out there if he wants to do something special he can pick from those. :belkar: Another option is to let him know that any class he creates WILL be used against the party before he will be allowed to play it, then throw a group of his created class at him to see how they do.

Edit: I agree with Debby too.

Tavar
2013-08-28, 11:59 PM
Honestly, there's quite a lot of ground that isn't really covered by PRC, largely because there's a ton of repetition/horrible design. Homebrew changes that, but otherwise? Dnd is actually quite limiting.