Nale makes/made my head hurt.

[swicked]

Apologies that this post is overlong, but I'm just that confused about what Nale's problem was.
Skip to the TLDR below if you'd rather not read me ramble.

Nale killed Malak claiming that he had decided to strike first and that if he hadn't Malak would have killed him later.
That... doesn't add up.
Okay, so... Malak has wanted to kill Nale for two years now. Wanted it very badly. Nale has never given him any reason to stop wanting to. Clearly Tarquin had been stopping Malak from killing Nale, just as he did at the beginning of this mission. Despite all the claims that Malak would finally get his revenge, Nale couldn't have been worried that Malak really would get the chance to kill him (since, again, two years). He was utterly convinced that his father would keep him safe (a fact which pissed him off, for some reason).
After killing Malak, knowing the snake was his dad's best friend, he GLOATS about it in front of Laurin(so that Tarquin couldn't cover it up from the rest of his party), knowing how much it would piss off not just Tarquin, but Tarquin's entire evil party. So again, it couldn't be any more clear he didn't fear any retaliation from Tarquin's group of evil, let alone Tarquin himself, believing the guy would continue to protect him from any attack that could stem from the ruling evil group.

I mean... they are ALL high-level evil characters, all friends, and if Nale had reason to fear an attack from Malak, he should have reason to fear an attack from any of those villains and the empires that stand behind them.

So... what? Did he just kill Malak because he wanted to, and was only claiming that it was to protect himself? Because that's what it looks like when he gloats about making Malak suffer and doesn't at all expect any of these evil-aligned to kill him, particularly the one present, while he's in his weakened state.

And then, when Tarquin starts talking about how he's going to try and make sure his group doesn't take out their revenge on Nale, Nale starts spouting about how he doesn't need his dad's help or protection.

To be honest, I'm not entirely convinced Tarquin particularly wanted to kill Nale, even given all this, but if he'd walked back with Nale to Laurin, told her bluntly that Nale was no longer under any sort of protection, she would have smiled and shoved a sword in Nale's gut. Same result, different means.
The advantage to Tarquin doing it, though, is he at least get some very small measure of satisfaction in avenging the death of his best friend as well as making sure Nale's end came quickly, as opposed to playing a strictly passive role in Malak and Nale's deaths. It also let him reinforce his position as leader of the group by taking out the trash, even if that was far from the main reason for him to kill Nale.
Heh, it was a real "lesser of two evils" situation.

So yeah, I just don't get what was going through Nale's head. He couldn't have possibly felt threatened at any point and I can't even comment on the temper tantrum he pulled. I never pegged the kid for smart, but you can hardly get dumber than demanding not to be protected from, what, three separate empires out for your bratty blood?
He had absolutely no means to his name to survive following this day. Best case scenario would have been for Laurin to decide Nale wasn't worth it, Tarquin to decide he couldn't just kill his son and them all leave the mangled brat on his lonesome in the middle of the desert. He had no equipment, no party and so little HP he could be done in with a casual shank... all because that's exactly what the man demanded, and Tarquin is lawful-enough to take him for his word.
...so I guess that was one other advantage to Tarquin killing Nale. The guy didn't have to leave with the knowledge that his idiot son would die of exposure alone in a desert all because the kid was completely incapable of planning one step ahead of his own emotional state.
...I guess I can answer my own question, though. Nale's problem was that he was really that stupid.



TLDR: Nale had to of known Tarquin was the only thing preventing Malak from killing him for the last two years (and would continue to do so) and had to of "known" Tarquin would be the one preventing the rest of Tarquin's party from killing him following his slaying Malak. He was relying on those facts, even while he claimed to kill Malak in "self-defense".
He also had to of known he needed Tarquin's help to survive after his Linear Guild was decimated, leaving him with only a couple hit points and no supplies in the middle of a desert.
So, in demanding his father cut all ties with him, Nale really was more stupid, brattish and crappy at planning ahead than I ever thought.

Or is there some other explanation that makes a lick of sense given the kid is supposed to be at least vaguely meticulous?

[TriForce]

well first of all, im pretty sure nale never realized that his father was protecting him all the time. if he did, there was no need to sneak into the palace, he could have just walked in. while nale was convinced his own father would never kill him (hence the temper tantrum) he was sure malack would kill him given half a chance. he also probably tought that with malack gone, he would have nothing to fear from the others, in a "i killed malack, and if you look at me wrong your next" kind of way

[swicked]

he also probably tought that with malack gone, he would have nothing to fear from the others, in a "i killed malack, and if you look at me wrong your next" kind of way

Why? They have armies and lots more money than he does.
They could crush him under the combined weight of the assassins, alone.

Laurin certainly didn't look threatened. She looked pissed, and he wanted her to be.

[Kish]

Look at what Tarquin said again.

This was Nale's chance to impress Tarquin. And Nale's reward for doing so would have been to be reintegrated into Tarquin's team as Tarquin's lackey. And Nale's reward for not doing so, but being Tarquin's son, was to be reintegrated into Tarquin's team as Tarquin's lackey.

Nale wanted to be independent, something Tarquin considered too absurd to even acknowledge. Note that even when Tarquin was ostensibly working for Nale, he kept announcing that he was actually in charge and Nale was...still, and forever, a child. Nale considered himself to have achieved his first real victory recently, killing his enemy Malack. Tarquin didn't acknowledge that at all as a victory; Nale hadn't been focused on the goal Tarquin defined, so he had lost, definitionally, and foolishly killed someone who Tarquin decreed was his ally regardless of Nale's opinion on the matter. Nale had finally had enough. He succeeded in making Tarquin acknowledge that Nale wouldn't be, didn't want to be, his pawn; the problem was that he failed to correctly predict what that acknowledgement would mean to Tarquin.

For that matter, when he killed Malack, I doubt he planned to see his father again until his father was tied up for him to monologue at. His plan--and his life--fell apart because he misjudged the loyalties and sensibilities of Vampire Durkon.

[DR27]

As weird as it sounds, looking at this from Tarquin's point of view, I can't fault him for killing Nale. Lets pretend that you rule an empire (albeit a bloody, ruthless one), and are grooming your son to rule when you die. Instead of either accepting the generous offer or deciding that he wants nothing to do with your empire (an outcome I firmly believe that Tarquin would eventually accept considering his attitude towards Elan), your son attempts a premature coup. You let him escape (and yes, Tarquin let Nale escape that first time, there's no way he could escape Tarquin's web). Later, he returns under your nose. You decide to give him another chance at joining the team (otherwise, what the hell is your son doing in your Empire? - the Gate is clearly more than he can handle), only to be rebuffed and betrayed. I don't know that Tarquin had any other choice at that point, Nale clearly did not want to be his own man - he wanted to be involved in his father's land for f-ed up personal reasons. Nale had no way to do anything with the Gates, and was pretty much in the Empire for no reason. How can you justify keeping Nale alive to your allies after his attempted coup, destruction of the party Cleric, and multiple other offenses that we probably didn't see?

[swicked]

Nale considered himself to have achieved his first real victory recently, killing his enemy Malack.

He only managed that due, in no small part, to the aid of his allies.
Malack had many very strong allies.
That's the part I can't wrap my head around; how he thought he'd get away with doing this.

I understand he never wanted to work for his father, but he could have hardly picked a worse way to do so had he killed Tarquin himself.

What did Durkon do, really? He killed the dark elf. Had he not... how would Nale have survived this? Really?

[Henry the 57th]

He really did think Tarquin was going to let Malack kill him. And can you blame him? He's known just how cold-blooded the man is his entire life. More recently, from his perspective, if he hadn't coughed up information, Tarquin would have already let Malack do it. Tarquin says he wouldn't have, but he isn't exactly the most honest of folks to begin with, and Tarquin didn't even say that until after the deed was done. So eliminating Malack was both personal revenge and neutralizing an eminent threat.

As to why the outburst? He was releasing anger that had been building inside him for years - he wasn't rational at that point. He wanted to tell his domineering father in no uncertain terms that he was not, and would never be, his faithful little lackey. So he did it in the most direct fashion he could think of. He never did have a high WIS score, so it's likely he was just thinking emotionally and didn't think about the consequences. He was a son that wanted to be acknowledged as a man.

Also, if Durkon hadn't killed Z, the could have just teleported out. Maybe even plane shifted, if that was all he had left. His real failure was that he expected Durkon to have abandoned his loyalty to the oots after his vampirization, or at least to show some gratitude for freeing him.

[Tock Zipporah]

Apologies that this post is overlong, but I'm just that confused about what Nale's problem was.
Skip to the TLDR below if you'd rather not read me ramble.

Nale killed Malak claiming that he had decided to strike first and that if he hadn't Malak would have killed him later.
That... doesn't add up.
Okay, so... Malak has wanted to kill Nale for two years now. Wanted it very badly. Nale has never given him any reason to stop wanting to. Clearly Tarquin had been stopping Malak from killing Nale, just as he did at the beginning of this mission. Despite all the claims that Malak would finally get his revenge, Nale couldn't have been worried that Malak really would get the chance to kill him (since, again, two years). He was utterly convinced that his father would keep him safe (a fact which pissed him off, for some reason).
After killing Malak, knowing the snake was his dad's best friend, he GLOATS about it in front of Laurin(so that Tarquin couldn't cover it up from the rest of his party), knowing how much it would piss off not just Tarquin, but Tarquin's entire evil party. So again, it couldn't be any more clear he didn't fear any retaliation from Tarquin's group of evil, let alone Tarquin himself, believing the guy would continue to protect him from any attack that could stem from the ruling evil group.

I mean... they are ALL high-level evil characters, all friends, and if Nale had reason to fear an attack from Malak, he should have reason to fear an attack from any of those villains and the empires that stand behind them.

So... what? Did he just kill Malak because he wanted to, and was only claiming that it was to protect himself? Because that's what it looks like when he gloats about making Malak suffer and doesn't at all expect any of these evil-aligned to kill him, particularly the one present, while he's in his weakened state.

And then, when Tarquin starts talking about how he's going to try and make sure his group doesn't take out their revenge on Nale, Nale starts spouting about how he doesn't need his dad's help or protection.

To be honest, I'm not entirely convinced Tarquin particularly wanted to kill Nale, even given all this, but if he'd walked back with Nale to Laurin, told her bluntly that Nale was no longer under any sort of protection, she would have smiled and shoved a sword in Nale's gut. Same result, different means.
The advantage to Tarquin doing it, though, is he at least get some very small measure of satisfaction in avenging the death of his best friend as well as making sure Nale's end came quickly, as opposed to playing a strictly passive role in Malak and Nale's deaths. It also let him reinforce his position as leader of the group by taking out the trash, even if that was far from the main reason for him to kill Nale.
Heh, it was a real "lesser of two evils" situation.

So yeah, I just don't get what was going through Nale's head. He couldn't have possibly felt threatened at any point and I can't even comment on the temper tantrum he pulled. I never pegged the kid for smart, but you can hardly get dumber than demanding not to be protected from, what, three separate empires out for your bratty blood?
He had absolutely no means to his name to survive following this day. Best case scenario would have been for Laurin to decide Nale wasn't worth it, Tarquin to decide he couldn't just kill his son and them all leave the mangled brat on his lonesome in the middle of the desert. He had no equipment, no party and so little HP he could be done in with a casual shank... all because that's exactly what the man demanded, and Tarquin is lawful-enough to take him for his word.
...so I guess that was one other advantage to Tarquin killing Nale. The guy didn't have to leave with the knowledge that his idiot son would die of exposure alone in a desert all because the kid was completely incapable of planning one step ahead of his own emotional state.
...I guess I can answer my own question, though. Nale's problem was that he was really that stupid.



TLDR: Nale had to of known Tarquin was the only thing preventing Malak from killing him for the last two years (and would continue to do so) and had to of "known" Tarquin would be the one preventing the rest of Tarquin's party from killing him following his slaying Malak. He was relying on those facts, even while he claimed to kill Malak in "self-defense".
He also had to of known he needed Tarquin's help to survive after his Linear Guild was decimated, leaving him with only a couple hit points and no supplies in the middle of a desert.
So, in demanding his father cut all ties with him, Nale really was more stupid, brattish and crappy at planning ahead than I ever thought.

Or is there some other explanation that makes a lick of sense given the kid is supposed to be at least vaguely meticulous?

You're looking at this the wrong way. It's much simpler. Nale didn't WANT Tarquin to protect him, and killing Malack was his way of saying "See? I don't NEED your protection." He also thought he could handle any retaliation from Laurin and whoever else.

He was also wrong. And he paid for it.

[Alabenson]

Tarquin actually addressed this aspect of Nale's personality in strip number 760 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html). To quote Tarquin;
"Your brother [Nale] was a disorganized buffoon who cared more for satisfying his own ego than any realistic plan for world domination. All he ever cared about was that everyone knew that HE was the victor, even when the situation called for keeping a low profile."

Nale's own ego demanded that rub Tarquin's face in the fact that he killed Malack, no matter how suicidally stupid it was to do so. For Nale, getting away with what he did took a back seat to showing off how "clever" he was in defeating his enemy. Considering that Nale's ego has been his driving motivation for antagonizing Elan and the rest of the Order, it's actually rather fitting that his ego was what finally got him killed.

[Kish]

He only managed that due, in no small part, to the aid of his allies.

Well yeah, his primary skill was as a party leader. That's like faulting Vaarsuvius for doing something because s/he "only managed it with magic."


What did Durkon do, really? He killed the dark elf. Had he not... how would Nale have survived this? Really?
Do you really not see a difference between Zz'dtri Teleporting a significantly-less-injured Nale, and possibly his new team cleric, away, and Nale running through the sands injured nearly to death and alone?

[swicked]

Well yeah, his primary skill was as a party leader. That's like faulting Vaarsuvius for doing something because s/he "only managed it with magic."
I wasn't faulting him, I was making a parallel. He seemed to think that killing Malack was the beginning and end of it. It wasn't. There were other people involved outside of those two. Nale had his allies, and Malack had his own, much more powerful allies.


Do you really not see a difference between Zz'dtri Teleporting a significantly-less-injured Nale, and possibly his new team cleric, away, and Nale running through the sands injured nearly to death and alone?

Okay, so it might have taken them a couple days, a week at most, for the best hunters they could buy to track him down and skin him alive.

[Henry the 57th]

Okay, so it might have taken them a couple days, a week at most, for the best hunters they could buy to track him down and skin him alive.

They didn't last time he ditched them, and Nale being Nale would be unlikely to believe it would be different. At the least he'd think he could deal with them.

Also, Tarquin would have no way of knowing that Nale did it. He had no clue until Nale told him. All he would know is that Malack is dead and his son and co. are nowhere to be found.

[Gray Mage]

Okay, so it might have taken them a couple days, a week at most, for the best hunters they could buy to track him down and skin him alive.

You mean, just like it didn't happen the first time? Besides, Tarquin only decided to kill him after Nale's rant, before that he was tottaly ok with Nale joining him, so I doubt he'd be interested in pursuing Nale.

Edit: Swordsage'd.

[Kish]

Okay, so it might have taken them a couple days, a week at most, for the best hunters they could buy to track him down and skin him alive.
Really? 'Cause the best hunters they could buy before captured Elan, Haley, and Vaarsuvius by surprise, but they weren't doing too well against Roy, and they only caught anyone because the Order came to the western continent. Eight hours after Hypothetical Zz'dtri teleported himself and Hypothetical Nale and Maybe Hypothetical Durkon, there would be absolutely no reason for any of them to be on the western continent. Ever again, if Nale decided he was satisfied with having counted coup on his father by slaughtering Malack...or if Nale simply decided he was recruiting new members for his Linear Guild and heading to Kraagor's Gate and settling accounts with his father later.

[swicked]

You mean, just like it didn't happen the first time? Besides, Tarquin only decided to kill him after Nale's rant, before that he was tottaly ok with Nale joining him, so I doubt he'd be interested in pursuing Nale.

Edit: Swordsage'd.
Did he kill one of their number the first time?
I was under the impression they didn't really care about tracking him down, Nale counting on the fact that they wouldn't consider it to be worth it.


Also, Tarquin would have no way of knowing that Nale did it. He had no clue until Nale told him. All he would know is that Malack is dead and his son and co. are nowhere to be found.
...he would have made sure he told them. He told them nearly as soon as he could.

[Gray Mage]

Did he kill one of their number the first time?
I was under the impression they didn't really care about tracking him down, Nale counting on the fact that they wouldn't consider it to be worth it.

So what? Check the first half of this comic. Tarquin still doesn't care nor thinks it worth it to kill/punish Nale.

[Kish]

...he would have made sure he told them. He told them nearly as soon as he could.
See, now you're conflating "what happened considering Nale couldn't get away" with what a hypothetical Nale who still had a party wizard, and might have a party cleric, would have done.

Yes, maybe, after he was on another continent, he would have bought a Sending scroll and told Tarquin, "I killed Malack!" and run out of words halfway through explaining the exquisite suffering Malack went through. Then again, maybe he would have snickered that it would be so delicious for Tarquin to always wonder and never know what happened to his precious more-important-than-his-son best friend...

...nah, probably the Sending scroll thing. Nale is a monologuer, after all. He'd still be on another continent first, though.

[Henry the 57th]

Did he kill one of their number the first time?
I was under the impression they didn't really care about tracking him down, Nale counting on the fact that they wouldn't consider it to be worth it.

He killed three of Malack's children, which makes it pretty darn personal. From Tarquin's words, Malack wanted to track Nale down after that, but Tarquin put a stop to it. Of course, Nale didn't know that.


...he would have made sure he told them. He told them nearly as soon as he could.

Probably, but via a sending spell or some other magical means. From a continent away, in the land of the dwarves, near Kraagor's Gate. Rather impractical to go after him at that point. Business (of ruling the empires) before pleasure (hunting down Nale for revenge), after all.

[Muenster Man]

I think it's pretty obvious based on the most recent comic that Nale completely underestimated the lengths that Tarquin has gone to protect him. Look at him, he's actively taunting a (presumably) evil psion capable of 9th level powers while Tarquin is dragging him to safety. He doesn't fear his father's party because he assumed they could never get to them because they never had before. It's a poor way to learn a lesson, but Nale has never been one to think things through.

Also, I'm pretty convinced that Nale is of a high enough level that if he still had Z, gotten back Sabine in less than a day, and convinced Durkon (a more powerful vampire cleric than Malack) to join, he could fight off anyone short of Tarquin's party itself that Tarquin could likely send. And there's no way Tarquin would temporarily relinquish his grip on the continent to gather his party and hunt Nale down. Combine that with Nale's inflated ego, and he probably thought he could go toe-to-toe with his dad.

[swicked]

He killed three of Malack's children, which makes it pretty darn personal. From Tarquin's words, Malack wanted to track Nale down after that, but Tarquin put a stop to it. Of course, Nale didn't know that.

Okay, so that's the part I didn't remember... that that was when he killed Malack's children.
I somehow had it in mind that that was a separate incident and he was aware that Tarquin had prevented Malack from acting, which was one of the reasons he was so pissed that Tarquin had "protected" him from Malack.
After all, he said in the comic he wished Tarquin had let Malack track him down, as the vampire was "his problem". That made me think he was aware Tarquin had done that much.

If he thought they had failed to find him the first time, even when that motivated, then yeah... he would think they couldn't find him the second time.

Doesn't really excuse his tantrum when he couldn't find a way to get away, but at least he sorta had a plan at first.

[Shale]

It comes down to Nale's ego again. In his mind, everything he's accomplished, every close call he got out of, was all because he was such a great evil genius. He escaped the Empire of Blood after his rebellion because he covered his tracks so well, not because his father held back the pursuit. He lost to the Order three times? That was plain bad luck, not his overcomplicated plans biting him in the rear. He got his father and Malack to help him go after the gate because he's such a silver-tongued devil, not because his father was giving him a chance to show the people out for his blood that he was more useful as an asset than a corpse. He slew Malack because he's an invincible uber-villain, not because he was taking advantage of Tarquin's "business before pleasure" mandate. So why shouldn't he throw his "victory" in the gang's collective face? He's far too invincible for them to stop him walking away scot-free. He doesn't need anybody's protection.

[Henry the 57th]

Okay, so that's the part I didn't remember... that that was when he killed Malack's children.
I somehow had it in mind that that was a separate incident and he was aware that Tarquin had prevented Malack from acting, which was one of the reasons he was so pissed that Tarquin had "protected" him from Malack.
After all, he said in the comic he wished Tarquin had let Malack track him down, as the vampire was "his problem". That made me think he was aware Tarquin had done that much.

If he thought they had failed to find him the first time, even when that motivated, then yeah... he would think they couldn't find him the second time.

Doesn't really excuse his tantrum when he couldn't find a way to get away, but at least he sorta had a plan at first.

Nale said that he'd rather Tarquin and let Malack track him down after Tarquin had just told him he had prevented it. Tarquin straight up asked him if he'd have preferred it that way.

As I said, at that point he was just blind from years of pent-up rage and tired of Tarquin's efforts to manipulate him. He wanted to rub it in his face that he would never be his lackey, and gloating about how he just killed his valued teammate was the best way to go about it. Not very wise, but in-character. Don't forget, Nale purposely pissed off (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html) Celia (a random stranger) when she had him at her mercy just for a laugh. And he considered getting zapped with lightning in reprisal "totally worth it".

[Warren Dew]

So, in demanding his father cut all ties with him, Nale really was more stupid, brattish and crappy at planning ahead than I ever thought.
Got it in one.

[swicked]

Nale said that he'd rather Tarquin and let Malack track him down after Tarquin had just told him he had prevented it. Tarquin straight up asked him if he'd have preferred it that way.
No, I get that, I read that wrong because I was already remembering things wrong to begin with.


As I said, at that point he was just blind from years of pent-up rage and tired of Tarquin's efforts to manipulate him. He wanted to rub it in his face that he would never be his lackey, and gloating about how he just killed his valued teammate was the best way to go about it. Not very wise, but in-character. Don't forget, Nale purposely pissed off (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html) Celia (a random stranger) when she had him at her mercy just for a laugh. And he considered getting zapped with lightning in reprisal "totally worth it".
He didn't seem blind with rage when he started gloating about killing Mallack, which was going to directly lead to his death and the hands of an angry evil psion.
I mean, he knew the sylph was lawful good and wouldn't kill him since he was already all tied up. He had to know the lawful evil psion would easily and gladly kill him in his present state.
...or, rather, he had to not know, as he gloated anyway.
That's the part that made my head hurt.

[Porthos]

As I said, at that point he was just blind from years of pent-up rage and tired of Tarquin's efforts to manipulate him. He wanted to rub it in his face that he would never be his lackey, and gloating about how he just killed his valued teammate was the best way to go about it. Not very wise, but in-character. Don't forget, Nale purposely pissed off (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html) Celia (a random stranger) when she had him at her mercy just for a laugh. And he considered getting zapped with lightning in reprisal "totally worth it".

Yeah, I agree. As I said elsewhere, he snapped.

Originally he might have thought he could fast talk his was out of Tarquin's wrath and then hightailed it out of there. But when he found out all of this, his greatest victory ever, was just another test of Tarquin's, and not even the one he expected?

Then he completely melted down. By that point he wasn't thinking rationally and was erupting in a years long bottled up volcano of rage.

See, I think people are discounting just how much importance Nale put on Malack's death. Look at the last panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html) and the first panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html) after Malack's death. The relief is palpable. The sense of real accomplishment is pouring through his skin.

And, minutes later what happens? His father said, "You failed the test, dummy. You completely misread what I wanted you to do. Now forget all your accomplishments and get back with the program."

Nale has had his single most important thing, perhaps outside of Sabine, ripped from him. Just how IS he going to react?

He initially tells everyone that he killed Malack as a sign of "I'm important. I'm independent. I can take the risks to do Big Things that you folks aren't doing anymore." And it all gets yanked away from him.

So, putting it that way, and adding the years of frustration of being in daddy's shadow, it isn't at all a surprise that Nale acted the way he did. Paid for it, of course. But not a surprise.

[Benthesquid]

Nale killed Malak claiming that he had decided to strike first and that if he hadn't Malak would have killed him later.


Not entirely. Nale announced that he knew that Malack planned to kill him, but that was part of his gloating. "You thought you'd just be able to snuff me when this over." His reasons for killing Malack aren't explicitly spelled out, but they obviously go back a lot further than the two years Malack's wanted him dead.

"You may have been thinking about killing me for the last two years- but I've been thinking about killing you since I was nine years old!!"

And

"I murdered your children as a practice run!!"

[skim172]

Nale and Tarquin are like polar opposites when it comes to the fans. Tarquin is almost universally beloved - Nale is overwhelmingly despised. And when Nale reveals a more human, emotional aspect, he's hated more. And when Tarquin does something cruel and coldblooded, he gains fans.

Not that I liked Nale. But the OP's general gist seems to be that Nale is incredibly stupid? And there's a long, complex proof for that thesis.

Might be valid. But I think we might be missing the much simpler explanation:

Nale hates his father.

That's kind of it. Nale hates Malack, he hates Laurin, he hates them all, but most of all, he hates his father.

So why kill Malack, publicly throw that in his father's face, and refuse to accept his protection?

Because he hates his father.

Nale's character differs greatly from his father - despite both being villains - and not just because of the "Chaotic/Lawful" alignment blah-blah-blah. Nale is intensely emotional - he's driven to do crazy irrational things out of deep-seated rage and hatred. On the other hand, Tarquin is an emotionless avatar. I've said before - Tarquin is James Bond. He's always cool. He's always calculated. He's never emotional.

That's why he doesn't understand his son. Or, rather, sons. In the first part of the strip, Tarquin is annoyed and a little confused that Elan refuses to "play his game." He doesn't get why Elan and Haley might choose to refuse him purely out of spite. It's not a calculated move - they're surrounded by his army, desperate, weakened - surely they need him. But they would refuse his assistance anyway. For them, it's out of a sense of honor and morality and justice.

But Nale refuses him more forcefully - and purely out of rage. He hates his father. That's it. He's acting irrational, emotional, because he HAS emotion.

Tarquin is always unemotional, always collected, always cool. It's his charm - everyone loves the guy with all the answers, even if he is evil.

But going back to my first statement - this core of Tarquin's charm ... it's also what makes him inhuman. And what we hate about Nale - that pathetic, whiny, annoying emotional upstart - the more emotional he is, the more pathetic he becomes - that's actually more humanizing than anything else.

So yes, Nale made a stupid move - he threw his betrayal into the face of his father purely out of emotion and he paid for it. And Tarquin made a smart one - he rid himself of an enemy and also sends a message to his other, more useful son: "Don't refuse my protection, boy. I won't hesitate."

But in the end, that's what makes Tarquin so inhuman. That is the monstrous core of Tarquin - his psychopathic unconcern with emotion and compassion and care and morality - his unchanging disregard for anything but calculated interest and gain. But it's also the same reason he's so charming.

[Henry the 57th]

He didn't seem blind with rage when he started gloating about killing Mallack, which was going to directly lead to his death and the hands of an angry evil psion.
I mean, he knew the sylph was lawful good and wouldn't kill him since he was already all tied up. He had to know the lawful evil psion would easily and gladly kill him in his present state.
...or, rather, he had to not know, as he gloated anyway.
That's the part that made my head hurt.

Again, I think he was the victim of deep-seated daddy issues and his low WIS. He wanted to show that he was important, that he was powerful, and mostly all that he was nobody's peon. He was tired (physically and mentally) and emotional. He wanted Tarquin to suck it, and he didn't stop to consider the costs.

[angry_bear]

"You don't even have the balls to go big anymore. You're just a scared old man protecting his rut."

He wasn't bragging about what he did to Malack. He was trying to push Tarquin into doing something... Anything. For a good chunk of Nale's life he's seen Tarquin manipulate from the shadows, presenting himself as a goon, and a fool to inferior people in order to gain power. He didn't want to follow someone content to do that. He wanted to rule, and he wanted his subjects to know he was the one in charge.

[dnzrx]

Way I see it:

It is another case of "Pride before the fall."

Both Nale and Tarquin are quite prideful and both are fated to fall. Tarquin knows this and accepts this and even made plans to account for this.

Nale let his pride and ego cloud his judgement and get to his head, and it cost him dearly, for he realize the very fact that he can still fall no matter what his ego and pride tells him.

[Zevox]

Nale hates his father.

That's kind of it. Nale hates Malack, he hates Laurin, he hates them all, but most of all, he hates his father.

So why kill Malack, publicly throw that in his father's face, and refuse to accept his protection?

Because he hates his father.
Basically. I think from this scene in particular we can deduce that a lot of Nale's character comes from his relationship with his father. Growing up under Tarquin seems to have lead directly to a desire to step out of his shadow - whether to prove himself better than his father or simply to be independent of his eternal scheming, I think he wanted that above all else. This leads directly to a lot of Nale's character traits - his ego and narcissism, his complete unwillingness to pursue his goals through the more subtle tactics his father employed, his desire to see himself as some sort of evil genius, and so on.

And here he is, finally having accomplished what he considers a major victory by killing Malack, someone he's wanted dead for years who is also extremely dangerous. It's a victory that someone like him just has to gloat about, to his father most of all. He probably thought that his father would have to acknowledge it, regardless of his friendship with Malack.

But instead, Tarquin is simply perplexed by Nale's continued unwillingness to work with him - one way or the other, Tarquin is convinced he can make Nale a part of his group again, even after learning that he killed Malack. And this is where I think you're wrong about Tarquin, skim. He's not emotionless. The whole reason he's still trying to bring Nale into his group even after he admitted to killing Malack is because he's his son. In his own twisted way, Tarquin did care about Nale - but his care for him only extended as far as desperately wanting to bring him back into his fold. Once Nale made it clear that that would never be happening, Tarquin's patience with him ended, and punishing him for killing his best friend took priority.

In the end, neither Tarquin nor Nale ever really understood each other. And that, ultimately, got Nale killed.

[Eulalios]

Nale hates his father.

That's kind of it. Nale hates Malack, he hates Laurin, he hates them all, but most of all, he hates his father.

So why kill Malack, publicly throw that in his father's face, and refuse to accept his protection?

Because he hates his father.

Nale is intensely emotional - he's driven to do crazy irrational things out of deep-seated rage and hatred. On the other hand, Tarquin is an emotionless avatar. I've said before - Tarquin is James Bond. He's always cool. He's always calculated.

this core of Tarquin's charm ... it's also what makes him inhuman. And what we hate about Nale - that pathetic, whiny, annoying emotional upstart - the more emotional he is, the more pathetic he becomes - that's actually more humanizing than anything else.

the monstrous core of Tarquin - his psychopathic unconcern with emotion and compassion and care and morality - his unchanging disregard for anything but calculated interest and gain. But it's also the same reason he's so charming.

Which begs the mirror gazing question: why? Why is the pleasant facade of this cold fiend so much more appealing than the genuine pain of the son he has subtly and repeatedly wounded?

Maybe something to do with empathy, and how we can't really grasp the emotions of others without momentarily feeling those emotions ourselves. Tarquin's dominant emotions are dominant: power and self satisfaction. Those are a rush to sympathize with. Nale seems continually under the lash of resentment and envy. Big downer. So we shy away from understanding and experiencing Nale's pain - one of the forever prices and consequences of Tarquin's satisfaction.

Edit: tl; dr: see thread title.

[swicked]

Nale and Tarquin are like polar opposites when it comes to the fans. Tarquin is almost universally beloved - Nale is overwhelmingly despised. And when Nale reveals a more human, emotional aspect, he's hated more. And when Tarquin does something cruel and coldblooded, he gains fans.

I personally through Nale was a pretty funny joke throughout the comic. An evil twin that seriously thinks he's the big bad in the story, when not only is he wrong, he's only the... what, third biggest recurring villain? And most of the one-shots were bigger and badder than he is.

I personally like Tarquin because he thinks similarly to how I do, I relate to him better, I can understand his story and admire his efforts. What he and his compatriots have made took a lot of work, and it all functions extremely well.
Besides, you can't help but admire someone that clever.
Heck, in panel 15, I even got the same head-pain he was clearly getting from Nale's nonsensical temper tantrum.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Tarquin actually addressed this aspect of Nale's personality in strip number 760 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html). To quote Tarquin;
"Your brother [Nale] was a disorganized buffoon who cared more for satisfying his own ego than any realistic plan for world domination. All he ever cared about was that everyone knew that HE was the victor, even when the situation called for keeping a low profile."

Nale's own ego demanded that rub Tarquin's face in the fact that he killed Malack, no matter how suicidally stupid it was to do so. For Nale, getting away with what he did took a back seat to showing off how "clever" he was in defeating his enemy. Considering that Nale's ego has been his driving motivation for antagonizing Elan and the rest of the Order, it's actually rather fitting that his ego was what finally got him killed.

Nale easily could have blamed Malack's death on the Order, or claimed the vampire was caught in the explosion. But as you said his ego demanded that he rub it in Tarquin's face. Sure Tarquin would probably learn the truth later but he'd likely respect Nale for covering his tracks most importantly he wouldn't be dead right now.

[Haluesen]

Nale and Tarquin are like polar opposites when it comes to the fans. Tarquin is almost universally beloved - Nale is overwhelmingly despised. And when Nale reveals a more human, emotional aspect, he's hated more. And when Tarquin does something cruel and coldblooded, he gains fans.

Not that I liked Nale. But the OP's general gist seems to be that Nale is incredibly stupid? And there's a long, complex proof for that thesis.

Might be valid. But I think we might be missing the much simpler explanation:

Nale hates his father.

That's kind of it. Nale hates Malack, he hates Laurin, he hates them all, but most of all, he hates his father.

So why kill Malack, publicly throw that in his father's face, and refuse to accept his protection?

Because he hates his father.

Nale's character differs greatly from his father - despite both being villains - and not just because of the "Chaotic/Lawful" alignment blah-blah-blah. Nale is intensely emotional - he's driven to do crazy irrational things out of deep-seated rage and hatred. On the other hand, Tarquin is an emotionless avatar. I've said before - Tarquin is James Bond. He's always cool. He's always calculated. He's never emotional.

That's why he doesn't understand his son. Or, rather, sons. In the first part of the strip, Tarquin is annoyed and a little confused that Elan refuses to "play his game." He doesn't get why Elan and Haley might choose to refuse him purely out of spite. It's not a calculated move - they're surrounded by his army, desperate, weakened - surely they need him. But they would refuse his assistance anyway. For them, it's out of a sense of honor and morality and justice.

But Nale refuses him more forcefully - and purely out of rage. He hates his father. That's it. He's acting irrational, emotional, because he HAS emotion.

Tarquin is always unemotional, always collected, always cool. It's his charm - everyone loves the guy with all the answers, even if he is evil.

But going back to my first statement - this core of Tarquin's charm ... it's also what makes him inhuman. And what we hate about Nale - that pathetic, whiny, annoying emotional upstart - the more emotional he is, the more pathetic he becomes - that's actually more humanizing than anything else.

So yes, Nale made a stupid move - he threw his betrayal into the face of his father purely out of emotion and he paid for it. And Tarquin made a smart one - he rid himself of an enemy and also sends a message to his other, more useful son: "Don't refuse my protection, boy. I won't hesitate."

But in the end, that's what makes Tarquin so inhuman. That is the monstrous core of Tarquin - his psychopathic unconcern with emotion and compassion and care and morality - his unchanging disregard for anything but calculated interest and gain. But it's also the same reason he's so charming.

Just posting here to say how much I love this. :smallbiggrin: Skim, you win at analysis forever.

And on topic, others here have said what I think in much better words. Suffice it to say, there are many ways to understand Nale. Which can be quite confusing.

[ti'esar]

Which begs the mirror gazing question: why? Why is the pleasant facade of this cold fiend so much more appealing than the genuine pain of the son he has subtly and repeatedly wounded?

Honestly, I kind of take offense at the whole premise of this. Yes, a lot of people in this forum think Tarquin is God and become apoplectic with rage every time Nale has a scene. But it's not like it's a universal thing. I, for instance, think Tarquin is despicable, and have since I started posting. He's entertaining, but he's not actually likeable. And whatever urge I ever had to "root" for Nale (who I also find entertaining, but not likeable) basically comes directly from the wish to see him get one up on his father.

[Lord Raziere]

Which begs the mirror gazing question: why? Why is the pleasant facade of this cold fiend so much more appealing than the genuine pain of the son he has subtly and repeatedly wounded?


I don't find Tarquin appealing.

I just find him a fake. another mask-wearer. he doesn't have anything worthy to feel, for he does not express, at best he hides what he really feels for cold logic.

and I know exactly how Nale feels about hating his father. I guess that comes from hating my own father in some way as well. not as much as Nale obviously, but I can relate. I wish that Nale could've triumphed over Tarquin in his own way, I guess. but then again I guess he did; Tarquin certainly never thought that Nale would kill Malack just for revenge.

[Tryfan]

I take the Nale / Tarquin thing as being more about character than alignment.

I don't think Tarquin will attack Elan as Elan has the same love of the dramatic and does things in the correct way: 760 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.htmlhttp://) shows Tarquin happy about Elan turning on him because it is done the right way. Elan defying him doesn't matter as much as that's what hero's do.

Tarquin even admires Roy for defeating Thog using brains and surroundings, despite the 'stylistic differences' of not killing the spectators. Ultimately Tarquin isn't going to kill anyone without a reason, especially if there's a chance of using them later on.

On the other hand Nale is described as an buffoon because he went about everything in the wrong way to have any chance of success. He can't think more than one move ahead which is what makes Tarquin's (and everybody else's) head hurt. He then taunts Tarquin for no good reason when he's by far the weakest person around.

Elan attacked Tarquin in a dramatically correct way for a hero and, now that he knows Tarquin is stronger than him, has come up with a different plan and will not attack until the time is right. Nale is disorganised and does not act as the situation demands, hence the head hurting stuff.

[Alabenson]

Frankly, I think a lot of people are giving Nale far more credit and sympathy than he deserves. Let's step back and take a look at Nale's interactions with Elan for a moment. Nale nearly killed Elan during the first Linear Guild arc, later murdered dozens of people solely to frame Elan for the crimes, and finally was gleefully planning on raping and murdering Haley for the express purpose of harming Elan. And what horrible act did Elan commit to deserve all of this? He bruised Nale's ego by refusing to abandon the OotS and join Nale's group.

Nale's hatred of his father likely had less to do with his having a terrible childhood and far more to do with the fact that Tarquin insisted that Nale keep his ego in check for the good of the "plan". That refusal to rein in his ego is what ultimately killed Nale; he simply could not swallow his pride and even pretend to accept Tarquin's protection long enough to make his escape.

[Eulalios]

Honestly, I kind of take offense at the whole premise of this.

I, for instance, think Tarquin is despicable, and have since I started posting. He's entertaining, but he's not actually likeable.

My entire comment clearly was not directed toward people who do not find Tarquin likable. Thus, why take offense? Are you offended that some people do find him congenial? That's an interesting window into their souls, but what's to be offended?



Originally Posted by Alabenson
Frankly, I think a lot of people are giving Nale far more credit and sympathy than he deserves. Let's step back and take a look at Nale's interactions with Elan for a moment. Nale nearly killed Elan during the first Linear Guild arc, later murdered dozens of people solely to frame Elan for the crimes, and finally was gleefully planning on raping and murdering Haley for the express purpose of harming Elan. And what horrible act did Elan commit to deserve all of this? He bruised Nale's ego by refusing to abandon the OotS and join Nale's group.

Nale's hatred of his father likely had less to do with his having a terrible childhood and far more to do with the fact that Tarquin insisted that Nale keep his ego in check for the good of the "plan". That refusal to rein in his ego is what ultimately killed Nale; he simply could not swallow his pride and even pretend to accept Tarquin's protection long enough to make his escape.
Agree with everything except this: Tarquin's relentless insistence that his plan must be adhered to, most likely was what made Nale's childhood terrible, leading to Nale becoming so maladjusted. By contrast, Elan, raised by a gentle handed bar maid, turns out so much more easy going -> more successful / less head ache inducing.

Parenting matters.

[HylianKnight]

We are talking about the guy who's overriding character trait was his overwhelming, unfounded ego, right?

Everything that Nale did was completely in character with being Nale. He thinks of himself as an evil genius, untouchable by anyone, and destined to win out for that reason.

What's so complicated about him acting that way to the very end? Was it stupid, yes, which is completely in character with every other time we watched his plans unravel.

The only reason this time was different is because The Giant is making the stakes so high that instead of being thrown in cardboard prison because he's a recurring villain, he gets taken out.

I'm sorry, but I feel like I'm missing something about this discussion since the actual comic is very straight forward.

[masamune1]

Nale knew that his dad was protecting him- that is what pissed him off. His dad was protecting him because he always treated Nale as a cog in his plans, and because he never respected Nale's abilities.

I think the reason Nale didn't expect his dad to punish him for killing Malack is that Tarquin never punished Nale for anything, ever. He always convinced the rest of the gang to let his crimes or mistakes slide; he always put Nale in positions of power he hadn't earned; he always pointed out the mistakes Nale was making and made him out to be an embarrassment....But he probably never actually punished him.

That's why Nale thinks he can get away with anything; its also one of the reasons he resents his dad. He wasn't ever punished because his dad simply didn't care enough to punish him; he was always more concerned with conquering a new country or forcing a new woman to marry him. He probably told Nale that what he did was stupid or reckless, but that's it.

So if he thinks that he can kill Tarquins' best friend and gloat about it to his face...why not? If Tarquin is willing to let Nale killing Malack's children, or trying to overthrow his empire, or any of that other stuff slide...how much can you really blame Nale for not expecting this?