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Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-22, 01:45 AM
I recently had a flash of inspiration that I wanted to get out before I forgot anything.

I've got the itch to play something based upon classic fairy tales. A story-telling kind of game that plays with fairy tale tropes and the players are common archetypes of these sorts of stories. In terms of tone, I'd be going for a medium-to-dark sort of tone like the classic tales, but not to the extent of the Grimmification trope. The idea that the forest IS dark and there ARE cannibalistic witches in there, but you CAN thrust them in the oven if you're clever enough, lucky enough, or kind enough. That fairies CAN abduct children and turn annoying jerks into animals, but they can also protect and bless babies. And that a happy ending is always a possibility, though never a guarantee.

But...I've got no idea where to begin in terms of statistics or rules. I only know a few themes and ideas I've got.

Archetypes

One thing I want to emphasize is a kind of "character archetype" that serves as a kind of class or race (or both) based on common fairy tale characters. Their archetype gives them traits or advantages. Here are some that I came up with off the top of my head:

Royal: These characters are princes, princesses or other nobles of some sort, often on a quest to retrieve something or break a spell. They'd probably be more proficient in combat and stuff. It's kind of hard to name specific characters of this archetype, since many noble characters in fairy tales just tend to be called "the prince" or "the queen." Childe Rowland would probably be the best example, as would Kate Crackernuts or Fret-Frunners (probably the ONLY transgendered fairy tale character I've ever read about). Most evil stepmothers would fall in this category too.

Peasant: These characters are lower-class types that may be foolish, clever, or just plain lucky, but all tend to rely more on their wits and skills for getting out of trouble, rather than brute force, and who knows? They may get a kingdom of their own in time. The Brave Little Tailor, Beauty from Beauty and the Beast, Cinderella, any of the many Hans or Jack characters, and Hansel and Gretel are the kinds of characters I had in mind with this archetype.

Beasts: These are, quite simply, talking animals. Some may be enchanted humans, like the Frog Prince, while others may be benevolent woodland helpers, or animals that live in their own societies and villages (like in The Hare and the Hedgehog). Such creatures would always have a little magic of their own (How else would they be able to speak, or utilize human tools and clothes?) and may have even more power depending on their nature, but their greatest skill would be in their guile. Almost any talking animal in any fairy tale I've read usually seems to be good at deceiving people, whether it's with a glib tongue or using illusions or conjuring for the benefit of some human they're fond of. Puss-in-Boots, the Big Bad Wolf, and the Bremen Town Musicians are probably some of the best examples of Beast characters.

Fair Folk: These characters are the mysterious little people, the alluring elves, and the brutish trolls. They can be benevolent or cruel depending on their whims or appetites, or how mortals respect them. Magic would be something they practically bleed and breathe. Rumpelstiltskin, the fairies in Sleeping Beauty, the Little Mermaid, the Ogre in Jack and the Beanstalk, these would be Fair Folk.

Witches: You know who these creeps are. Evil women, old or otherwise, that like to turn people into animals, eat children and generally make nuisances of themselves. I'd like for there to be "good" witches available that may avoid causing harm to other people or give advice, but in general I see witches more as antagonists than protagonists. The witch in Hansel and Gretel is probably THE greatest example. And who can forget the most scary-awesome witch of all: Baba freakin' Yaga?
Another idea I have is a sort of dualism between the powers of the Fair Folk and those of witches. The Fair Folk can empower humans with magical powers in exchange for their service and adhering to their rules. These people are called enchanters. Witches, on the other hand, can do whatever the heck they want, but they have to power it with sacrifices of blood. This is why so many witches are old hags. When a source of blood isn't readily available, the witch has to sacrifice her (or his) own, and casting really big, powerful spells ages them fast as a result. This is also why many witches turn to things like cannibalism or taking hearts of maidens. These allow them to utilize their powers at no cost to themselves, though if they use elaborate magical traps like the infamous gingerbread house, the magic gained from the sacrifice may just only be enough to maintain the trap, trapping the witch in an endless routine of sacrifices just to keep the source of sacrifices running. "Good" witches would have more self-control and use their own blood or life to use their spells, and as such tend not to be too powerful, as the more powerful the spell, the more life it takes from you. That's not to say that Enchanters are entirely good, though. They have to serve their fey masters, and sometimes those masters do strange or cruel things, and Enchanters themselves begin to develop short tempers in regards to rules of hospitality and propriety. They're able to maintain their youth (enchanters that look old CHOOSE to look that way, shapeshifting's a big perk) and are effectively immortal, provided their fey patron is pleased with them, and any weaknesses they might have aren't exploited by protagonists.

That's all the ideas I have for now, more may come later.

What do you guys think? Are there game systems and settings out there already that could fit these kinds of ideas or something? Or would this be something that could merit an entirely new system of rules?

And now for some mood-music, courtesy of my favorite TV show when I was a kid. :smallsmile:

Vadskye
2013-08-22, 09:59 AM
Are you familiar with Changeling: the Lost or Changeling: the Dreaming? They are both systems involving the Fair Folk in a modern world, though the two have a very different take.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-22, 10:06 AM
Changeling: The Lost is one of my favorite WoD settings. I'm going more for a medieval setting, though.

Vadskye
2013-08-22, 11:21 AM
Makes sense. I guess my main question is: why do you think that building a new setting requires building a new system? Refluffing an existing system and changing a few mechanics is vastly easier, faster, and less likely to break things than designing a new system from scratch. You could use D&D, Changeling: the Lost, or a variety of other systems as a baseline for this. Heck, even if you took the d20 system and threw out every single class, skill, and feat, redesigning it from the ground up to fit your setting, it would still be more comprehensive and more likely to result in a viable game system than making something from scratch. Plus, it lowers the barrier to entry for new players. Learning a system and setting all at once is harder than just learning a new setting, I think - and it keeps the focus of the world on what you are most interested in (and what is the most creative), which is the world and the stories you want to tell with it.

Debihuman
2013-08-22, 11:37 AM
There have a been a number of fairy tale world games: Blue Rose (Tru20), Grimm (its own system and OGL), Once Upon A Time: A Guide to Fairy Tales (OGL), Folkloric Gallia (OGL), Bastion Press's Fairies (d20 for 3.0).

Debby

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-22, 01:21 PM
I've read Grimm. While good, it's more along the lines of "real-world kids in a fantasy world" rather than the characters being actual residents OF said fantasy world. I'll do some research.

I thought Blue Rose was more modeled after YA fantasy authors like Tamora Pierce, though. :smallconfused:

Debihuman
2013-08-22, 02:54 PM
Bastion Press is good but you'd need to update it to 3.5, as with Grimm. Grimm has interesting takes on the monsters (I updated their Rapunzel in my signature to 3.5). Folkloric Gallia is based on traditional French fairy-tales (Puss-in-Boots, Beauty and the Beast).

Debby

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-22, 03:12 PM
Grimm and the Once Upon a Time are probably the closest to the sort of idea I'm going for. Folklore Gallica's cool, but I feel it'd fit more if I wanted to do a Carolignian RP (something that'd be badass in and of itself).

Part of what I'm trying to emphasize is the fairy tale idea of reciprocity: You give the old man your lunch, he'll magic his way through an impossible challenge on your behalf. You agree to help tidy up the dwarves' house, and they give you room and board and protect you from your wicked stepmother. If you're stingy with your stuff, or you're dishonest, you're punished by dropping your axe on your foot and crippling yourself.

The question is how to convince players to do this genuinely, rather than just following the formula. That's the problem with using fairy tales as a basis for an RPG is because they're so formulaic, and when you can spot those things, you just follow the pattern to cruise through (Talecrafting in Changeling: The Lost, uses this as a game mechanic, manipulating reality to fit the tropes of fairy tales to benefit yourself.) d20 and OGL games don't exactly fit that kind of mold, either, as they seem to decide conflict largely through force of arms.

Grinner
2013-08-22, 03:20 PM
It's not designed for emulating fairy tales, but give Sorcerer (http://zork.net/~nick/loyhargil/apprent.pdf) a shot.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-08-22, 03:40 PM
A Fate hack could work. I'd start with the Dresden Files RPG and build from there-- it's got rules about magic, magic debt and the like, as well as a good way of balancing competent-verses-lucky characters.

Debihuman
2013-08-22, 04:49 PM
Grimm and the Once Upon a Time are probably the closest to the sort of idea I'm going for. Folklore Gallica's cool, but I feel it'd fit more if I wanted to do a Carolignian RP (something that'd be badass in and of itself).

Part of what I'm trying to emphasize is the fairy tale idea of reciprocity: You give the old man your lunch, he'll magic his way through an impossible challenge on your behalf. You agree to help tidy up the dwarves' house, and they give you room and board and protect you from your wicked stepmother. If you're stingy with your stuff, or you're dishonest, you're punished by dropping your axe on your foot and crippling yourself.

The question is how to convince players to do this genuinely, rather than just following the formula. That's the problem with using fairy tales as a basis for an RPG is because they're so formulaic, and when you can spot those things, you just follow the pattern to cruise through (Talecrafting in Changeling: The Lost, uses this as a game mechanic, manipulating reality to fit the tropes of fairy tales to benefit yourself.) d20 and OGL games don't exactly fit that kind of mold, either, as they seem to decide conflict largely through force of arms.

First, throw out the formula. The PCs aren't children so don't treat them as such. The monsters aren't just nameless monsters, they're actually all NPCs. Even the Big Bad Wolf has a life and an agenda. Subverting the fairy tales is fun (Grimm does this) but not everything is a monster to defeat.

In many ways, in the realms of Faerie work best when being polite and following etiquette is more important than drawing blood. The PCs never know who has power and who doesn't. A faux pas can result in a turned into a frog or worse (of course it doesn't have to be permanent and there should be a protocol for making amends--a service to be done, a quest to complete, etc.).

There are a lot of articles on WoTC's site (Fey Features) and there are other game sites that may be useful EnWorld, Dicefreaks, You can have fairy courts (Seelie, Unseelie or Summer and Winter).

There's just so much material that I can't believe you'd have a problem with this.

Debby

Good deeds are rewarded and rudeness and inconsiderate behavior is punished. Sometimes the rewards are their own punishment. The fey aren't human so their idea of rewards and punishment can vary greatly.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-08-23, 01:57 AM
First, throw out the formula. The PCs aren't children so don't treat them as such. The monsters aren't just nameless monsters, they're actually all NPCs. Even the Big Bad Wolf has a life and an agenda. Subverting the fairy tales is fun (Grimm does this) but not everything is a monster to defeat.
Yeah, but just subverting it has been DONE so much. I'm going more for Reconstruction than Deconstruction here, where the tropes and archetypes have some kind of meaning. And frankly, I find while Grimm's subversions are interesting, some are just way too nasty to really fit the kind of mood I'm going for. I mean, having Cinderella as a dominatrix who shackles her stepsisters to her so she may abuse them at will and has a phobia of being touched? Come on! Part of this is very much in reaction AGAINST things like American McGee's Alice games or the borderline pornographic Grimm Fairy Tales comic book series. To show that the original stories can be plenty dark and even gritty on their own.

In many ways, in the realms of Faerie work best when being polite and following etiquette is more important than drawing blood. The PCs never know who has power and who doesn't. A faux pas can result in a turned into a frog or worse (of course it doesn't have to be permanent and there should be a protocol for making amends--a service to be done, a quest to complete, etc.).
This is true, and what I'm looking to do. The catch is how to get it to be sincere, without genre-savvy metagaming. PCs being PCs, they'll probably just be polite and generous to anyone they encounter, paranoid about them being a fey or wizard in disguise.

There are a lot of articles on WoTC's site (Fey Features) and there are other game sites that may be useful EnWorld, Dicefreaks, You can have fairy courts (Seelie, Unseelie or Summer and Winter).

There's just so much material that I can't believe you'd have a problem with this.
I thought I had to pay a subscription to get access to articles on WoTC's site. Though I haven't been there since I stopped playing 4e (nobody ever wanted to play it with me) and switched to Pathfinder. And I have no idea what EnWorld or Dicefreaks are. But I have heard rumors that mentioning Pathfinder around Dicefreaks ostracizes you, so I've avoided that intentionally. And I know about the whole Court possibilities. I've played CtL before. It's difficult to utilize that one, though, as it has very different themes and ideas than I'm going for here, due to its very nature as a dark deconstruction of fairy tales in the modern world.

Good deeds are rewarded and rudeness and inconsiderate behavior is punished. Sometimes the rewards are their own punishment. The fey aren't human so their idea of rewards and punishment can vary greatly.
What about the religious icons that appear in these tales too? There's the story about the little girl who was raised in Heaven by the Virgin Mary, the Godfather Death story where God and the Devil are passed over as potential godparents. How do I tell those kinds of stories, which are just as much a part of the fairy-tale canon?

erikun
2013-08-23, 10:07 AM
Yeah, but just subverting it has been DONE so much. I'm going more for Reconstruction than Deconstruction here, where the tropes and archetypes have some kind of meaning. And frankly, I find while Grimm's subversions are interesting, some are just way too nasty to really fit the kind of mood I'm going for. I mean, having Cinderella as a dominatrix who shackles her stepsisters to her so she may abuse them at will and has a phobia of being touched? Come on! Part of this is very much in reaction AGAINST things like American McGee's Alice games or the borderline pornographic Grimm Fairy Tales comic book series. To show that the original stories can be plenty dark and even gritty on their own.

This is true, and what I'm looking to do. The catch is how to get it to be sincere, without genre-savvy metagaming. PCs being PCs, they'll probably just be polite and generous to anyone they encounter, paranoid about them being a fey or wizard in disguise.
Most fairy tales are pretty one-dimensional, when you get right down to it. They are a sort of morality lesson. "Don't go do something you aren't supposed to do, or bad things will happen to you."

Here's the question, then. Do you want your players to act 'correctly' and thus not suffer the punishment, or do you want your players to act 'incorrectly' and thus have to deal with the consequences? Because the first seems to be like a guessing game, with the characters who guess right getting the boring nothing "success" happening, while the second either requires characters to avoid punishment somehow (by overcoming it, probably) or by failing and having bad things happen to their characters.


As for systems, I wonder if Paranoia could be used for the second concept. It seems to handle the "players are going to lose" mindset well, although I haven't played the system before and so can't comment on how that might work. The second thought that comes to mind is Dogs in the Vineyard, a game system where the PCs get to choose the risks involved in situations and can either bow out and accept defeat or continue onwards and risk their character. Again, though, I'm not sure how well such a system could be hacked into supporting your idea.

Debihuman
2013-08-23, 10:11 AM
Fey Features are still free in the WotC archives. Most of those articles are downloadable in pdf form. Here's the link to the main archives: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archives

Fey Features are here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/fey

Enworld has been supporting the online creature catalogue for years. Sadly, one of the main contributors Eric "Shade" Jansing passed away but here's a line to the catalogue: http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/

And you can look around the forums there too. There are homebrews therer as well: http://www.enworld.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?7-House-Rules-Homebrews-amp-Conversion-Library as well as other forums.

Dicefreaks is here: http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/index.php

Hope you get some ideas from all these places.

Debby