Advice for DM Epic Campaign

[aeauseth]

I'm currently running "Shackled City" and I suspect the players will want to continue into epic levels. I've read thru the Epic Level Handbook and it provides very basic guidance.

I've run many 1-20 campaigns and I'm a pretty good Dungeon Master. I generally rely on tweaked modules, but occasionally run my own content or side missions. I can do both and the players can rarely tell the difference between module or custom content. I like the modules because it is easy to prep for games and they have maps, custom content takes me longer (ya I'm lazy). I got good thru experience, running several campaigns, learning from my mistakes, and picking up tips from other GMs when I'm a player.

I've never played an epic campaign as a player, so I'm a bit tentative about my epic DM skills (IE: They don't exist). I suppose I can just wing-it, but I'm concerned it will have a dungeon crawl feal instead of a campaign feel. Are there any epic campaign modules I can buy or download. Any online resources for epic DM's?

The typical Grayhawk/FR worlds don't seem to provide an appropriate material plane for epic adventures. Perhaps in the low 20's they can do a war, or an evil cult, but how many level 20+ foes would really be running around the material plane in GH/FR? I think I'd have to go planar. Or create a new continent(s) with epic creatures.

I'd be courious what other GMs or players have done on Epic campaigns. What was the setting? What was the basic plot? Was it several unrelated dungeon crawls, or did it have a campaign feel (if so what was the basic plot)?

[Darkhope]

Wing it.

I run an epic campaign now and I ran a campaign for 15 years that went from 3 to 48. Once the PC's get so high you tend to have to get god's, primordial's, and very big NPC's involved to keep the party in check. (Around level 30). I stick to FR as a base for my campaigns and most the adventuring and campaign plot's are planar. Planescape has a lot of neat stuff and plot ideas for epic games. FR has tons and tons of NPC's that exceed level 20 so if you've been playing in the FRCS for awhile your players have heard of Elminster, Larlock, Szas Tam, the Twisted Rune, Zhentarim, Shade Enclave etc... These people/organizations can easily include epic level characters and keep them challenged. It all depends on how optimized your party is, how much wealth, power, and magical items they have acquired at this point. If you don't want the prime material plane to be affected so much I suggest moving them out into the planes. Or be very very strict in regards to punishment for taking actions that "break the game" so to speak. And if the party does get out of control you can always have a greater power move in and banish them from the prime. That could be your main plot. Party exceeds 20 and does something that pisses off Sune, Lathander, Chanteau, or any other generally good greater deity. Have them banished from the prime and have to quest through the planes to be allowed back. Or if they are in good spirit and not affecting the campaign world negatively bring in a major plot like pathfinder's Savage Tide. An outerplane power is making a move on the prime and the PC's get involved to stop it. If you've read any of the FR books you know that NPC's like Elminster and the Chosen are very involved in stopping BBEG from affecting the Prime Material Plane. And your right, the ELH is more of a guide than a very good set of rules laid out. In my experience epic is a lot of work for a DM. I've never once used a pre-set adventure though so I'm used to making up my own stuff and own plot's. Get a good feel for your players and how they play. Ask point blank things they would like to see. One thing I suggest going into epic though is to BAN Epic Level Spellcasting. DON'T LET THEM DO IT! Your wizard will craft a spell with a DC in the 50's and break your game in one day.

Hope that helps,
Good Luck!

[Roguenewb]

Is it terrible to say: don't?

The rules...they just don't work. Epic Spellcasting or don't play. If you can't make epic spells, its basically impossible to even vaguely compete.

Non caster: "I shock trooper, mega, laser powered, charge/full attack, trigger flash, kamehameha, laser cannon boom for 9871490385143 damage."

Caster: "Pact of true resurrection goes off, I come back perfect. Quickened Disjunction you, you have no more magic items or protection. Unique Death Laser: Instant death, no save. Both of us die. My second Pact of True Resurrection goes off, I come back perfect. I cast a spell that exiles your soul from existence, as well as killing everyone you've ever cared about by copying a friend as well variant of familial geas elevated to no save, with 'kill yourself' as the geas. The spell takes their souls and binds them as my toilet for eternity. But nice damage"

That's a bit of an exagerration, but not by that much.

[Zanos]

Is it terrible to say: don't?

The rules...they just don't work. Epic Spellcasting or don't play. If you can't make epic spells, its basically impossible to even vaguely compete.

Non caster: "I shock trooper, mega, laser powered, charge/full attack, trigger flash, kamehameha, laser cannon boom for 9871490385143 damage."

Caster: "Pact of true resurrection goes off, I come back perfect. Quickened Disjunction you, you have no more magic items or protection. Unique Death Laser: Instant death, no save. Both of us die. My second Pact of True Resurrection goes off, I come back perfect. I cast a spell that exiles your soul from existence, as well as killing everyone you've ever cared about by copying a friend as well variant of familial geas elevated to no save, with 'kill yourself' as the geas. The spell takes their souls and binds them as my toilet for eternity. But nice damage"

That's a bit of an exagerration, but not by that much.
There seems to be some school of thought on the forums that the Gentlemen's Agreement somehow disappears once you pass level 20. If the wizard wasn't chain gating solars before epic, why would he start pulling shenanigans like that because he leveled up once? Epic Magic is broken, but epic level games are playable with a good group of people who aren't jerks. Speaking of epic magic though, I honestly don't think it's a big deal to allow it. It is absolute RAW that every single epic spell, even printed ones, have to be approved by a DM before they can be made.

[Darkhope]

It is absolute RAW that every single epic spell, even printed ones, have to be approved by a DM before they can be made.

Still, don't do it :-P

[Krobar]

There seems to be some school of thought on the forums that the Gentlemen's Agreement somehow disappears once you pass level 20. If the wizard wasn't chain gating solars before epic, why would he start pulling shenanigans like that because he leveled up once? Epic Magic is broken, but epic level games are playable with a good group of people who aren't jerks. Speaking of epic magic though, I honestly don't think it's a big deal to allow it. It is absolute RAW that every single epic spell, even printed ones, have to be approved by a DM before they can be made.


This. If the group is a good group it's not a problem to run into epic levels. As far as epic spellcasting? In my game, only deities can cast epic spells (and Disjunction counts as an epic spell). That's as much to protect the party as it is to protect the game. As DM, if my group REALLY wants to use epic spells, fine. We'll use epic spells. But that means they're going to be up against epic spells too. Once I told them what epic spellcasting really meant, and how they might eventually be running into 50th level Pit Fiend Sorcerers who would have had hundreds if not thousands of years to develop very horrendous spells, that I would be inventing for them, they went right along with "okay, no epic spellcasting."

[satorian]

My feeling has always been that, even in the absence of epic magic, the numbers just don't work in epic. Saves scale in such a way that the bad save becomes auto-fail. Attack bonuses stop scaling anywhere close to armor, to the point where armor class becomes pointless, and only miss chance matters. It's too bad, since I like the idea of taking DnD to epic levels. Just doesn't work in practice, at least using 3.x.

Back in the day, I had a lot of very fun epic games in Basic and Advanced/2e, but we had to homebrew a lot to make it work.