Avenger Assembly

[Nightgaun7]

I want to play an Avenger. Apparently they're tough to do, but I want to play one anyways. So, having read the handbook, I now come to you for advice.

How do I make a top-tier Avenger?

[Arkhosia]

Do you mean high quality or paragon/epic avenger?
High quality:
1. AC
Assign highest number to Intelligence or Dexterity to get a good AC and take the Improved Armor of Faith feat for 14 AC before stat bonus.

[Nightgaun7]

Do you mean high quality or paragon/epic avenger?
High quality:
1. AC
Assign highest number to Intelligence or Dexterity to get a good AC and take the Improved Armor of Faith feat for 14 AC before stat bonus.

High quality.

Also, it seems that AC is much more useful in 4E than in 3.5 - is this correct?

[tcrudisi]

High quality.

Also, it seems that AC is much more useful in 4E than in 3.5 - is this correct?

Very much so, yes.

However, that doesn't mean that AC is useful. In heroic tier? It's amazingly useful. By epic tier? Your other defenses are equally, if not more so, important.

[Arkhosia]

Very much so, yes.

However, that doesn't mean that AC is useful. In heroic tier? It's amazingly useful. By epic tier? Your other defenses are equally, if not more so, important.

You normally need to invest more in your other defenses the farther up level-wise you get. Stronger enemies target other defenses more often than lower level ones due to powers ( a goblin can only hit with his weapon (Vs. AC), but a drow can blind you (Reflex, I think) and then strike with better hitting chances.

[Kurald Galain]

Also, it seems that AC is much more useful in 4E than in 3.5 - is this correct?
Yes, but most characters make baseline AC without even trying (assuming you have magic armor of the appropriate plus and either a good score in whichever stat you use for AC, or heavy armor). Add elven chain if your DM lets you, and the improved defense feat for your other defenses.

("most" classes/builds, not all. Also, that's baseline; of course you can get better by optimizing)

[Nightgaun7]

Add elven chain if your DM lets you, and the improved defense feat for your other defenses.

That's a type of armor, yes? Is it from Dragon or something?

[tcrudisi]

That's a type of armor, yes? Is it from Dragon or something?

No, it's a miscellaneous magical item that doesn't take up an item slot and provides a scaling +1/+2/+3 bonus depending on tier at 9/19/29 (or maybe 10/20/30, I don't remember exactly), but only functions if you are wearing light armor.

[Sol]

The avenger striker mechanic (Oath of Enmity) does not add to your damage directly, but rather just (drastically) improves your chance to hit and your chance to crit.

Like almost any other striker, finding ways to deal additional instances of damage without requiring standard actions is the easiest route to improving your overall effectiveness.

So grab minor action attacks, immediate action attacks, and anything that has multiple damage rolls. There's not many of each in the avenger power list, but there's at least one of each.

[Doctor Kumquat]

Re: AC... Assuming your avenger is starting in heroic tier, AC will indeed be an important defense to manage. I recommend starting with a 16/16 stat split in Wisdom and Dex/Int (based on whether you chose the Censure of Pursuit or Retribution). However, the Improved Armor of Faith feat just adds an untyped +1 to AC; while you might want to take it at some point, a far higher priority should be Unarmored Agility (or leather armor proficiency), granting a +2 feat bonus to AC.

Regarding actual play of avengers: They'll handle differently based on your censure, but tend to fit the role of off-tank. Retribution avengers want to charge in and take lots of aggro, preferably with the backup of a defender with a high-damage mark punishment mechanic for when the enemies go after the Avenger. Generally, getting baddies to try to stab the guy with a giant sword in cloth armor over the guy in plate mail isn't too hard. The three key tricks are figuring out how to keep your survivability up without being a permanent drain on the leader(s), figuring out when/how to start shedding aggro when you're taking too much heat, and figuring out how to isolate your oath target to get your double rolls (which can be hard in a dense melee).

Censure of Pursuit tend to try and engage the back-line artillery pieces, targeting them with your Oath of Enmity and forcing them to eat opportunity attacks or shift away and give you bonus damage. Even more than other avengers, they need to make sure that their opportunity attacks are threatening, which usually means either Power of Skill boosted Overwhelming Strikes or Melee Training: Wisdom. Grab mobility powers and be a relentless scourge to would-be casters.

Either way, grab as many minor/immediate action attacks as you can, be sturdy enough that you aren't eating all the heals the party can dish out (and then running dry on surges 3 battles in), and be careful with your oath targeting to make sure it's someone high priority that you can reliably engage.

[Arkhosia]

Re: AC... Assuming your avenger is starting in heroic tier, AC will indeed be an important defense to manage. I recommend starting with a 16/16 stat split in Wisdom and Dex/Int (based on whether you chose the Censure of Pursuit or Retribution). However, the Improved Armor of Faith feat just adds an untyped +1 to AC; while you might want to take it at some point, a far higher priority should be Unarmored Agility (or leather armor proficiency), granting a +2 feat bonus to AC.


Although unarmored agility is better than improved Armor, the feat only takes effect if wearing cloth, while the Armor of Faith one works with all light armor types, and taking Leather prof. Doesn't negate it and enables Hide proficiency, a +3, so it's better in the long run.

For example: a level 4 avenger who has 14 dexterity and 16 Intelligence and took hide and leather proficiency and Improved AoF has an AC of 12 (10+1/2 level) + 3 (ability mod) + 3 (AoF) + 1 (IAoF) + 3 (Hide Prof), or 22 AC!

[Nightgaun7]

Although unarmored agility is better than improved Armor, the feat only takes effect if wearing cloth, while the Armor of Faith one works with all light armor types, and taking Leather prof. Doesn't negate it and enables Hide proficiency, a +3, so it's better in the long run.

For example: a level 4 avenger who has 14 dexterity and 16 Intelligence and took hide and leather proficiency and Improved AoF has an AC of 12 (10+1/2 level) + 3 (ability mod) + 3 (AoF) + 1 (IAoF) + 3 (Hide Prof), or 22 AC!

That doesn't seem very high...

[tcrudisi]

Although unarmored agility is better than improved Armor, the feat only takes effect if wearing cloth, while the Armor of Faith one works with all light armor types, and taking Leather prof. Doesn't negate it and enables Hide proficiency, a +3, so it's better in the long run.

For example: a level 4 avenger who has 14 dexterity and 16 Intelligence and took hide and leather proficiency and Improved AoF has an AC of 12 (10+1/2 level) + 3 (ability mod) + 3 (AoF) + 1 (IAoF) + 3 (Hide Prof), or 22 AC!

That's what re-training is for. Leather Armor Proficiency is still the superior feat, as it gives +2 AC vs. only +1 AC. Improved Armor stacks later? Take it later.

But there is a such thing as putting too much into defenses, especially for a striker. The Avenger's damage is already low; it needs to focus on increasing that damage. As a striker, if you constantly increase your defenses rather than your offensive capability, you will find that combats will drag. As a striker, your job is to do damage. Period. Don't forget that.

Can you do your job while dead or unconscious? No, which is why defenses should not be ignored. But there is a such thing as investing too much into defenses, and when you are talking about Leather Armor > Hide Armor > Improved Armor, that's 3 feats right there. And what about Superior Will, a feat which will be taken? And probably either Superior Reflexes or Improved Defenses, too? That's a lot of defensive feats. A line has to be drawn. You want your defenses good ... but you need your offensive capability to be good, too. Strike the proper balance.

[tcrudisi]

That doesn't seem very high...

That's actually pretty darn good.

Paladin: Full Plate + heavy shield at level 4 = AC 22. So you are on par, there. Both will actually have higher (probably 23 or 24) because of magical armor.

But yeah, that's defender-level AC once the enhancement bonus is factored in.

[Dimers]

Both the Armor of Faith class feature and the Improved Armor of Faith feat now require cloth armor or no armor, with no shield.

[Arkhosia]

Both the Armor of Faith class feature and the Improved Armor of Faith feat now require cloth armor or no armor, with no shield.

Where does it say?

[Dimers]

From the online Compendium -- "ARMOR OF FAITH. The favor of your deity wards you from harm. While you are wearing cloth armor or no armor and aren’t using a shield, you gain a +3 bonus to AC." And -- "Improved Armor of Faith. Heroic Tier. Prerequisite: Avenger, armor of faith feature. Benefit: While you are wearing cloth armor or no armor and aren’t using a shield, you gain a +1 bonus to AC."

*shrug*

Latest update to the feat was 6/14/2010; it's not clear from the Compendium alone when the class feature was altered.

[Arkhosia]

Darn it! Oh well, as long as I still can use greatswords

[Yakk]

Errata for Armor and Improved Armor of Faith only working in cloth.

You can still get defender level AC, just not super-defender level AC.

---

I like pursuit avengers myself.

Avenger powers are often poor striker powers. So one common way to boost the Avenger is to play an Avenger of Ioun (killer librarian), grab the feat that turns one of your at-wills into a basic melee attack, and do charge optimization.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 5
Human, Avenger
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Pursuit
Human Power Selection: Heroic Effort
Background: Akanûl (Akanûl Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 10, Dex 17, Int 11, Wis 19, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 8.


AC: 20 Fort: 15 Reflex: 17 Will: 18
HP: 48 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 12

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +12, Religion +8, Acrobatics +11, Perception +14, Stealth +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +2, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +6, Endurance +2, History +2, Insight +8, Intimidate +1, Nature +6, Streetwise +1, Thievery +5, Athletics +3

FEATS
Human: Power of Skill
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Gouge)
Level 2: Unarmored Agility
Level 4: Battle Awareness

POWERS
Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike
Avenger at-will 1: Avenging Shackles
Avenger encounter 1: Raging Tempest
Avenger daily 1: Steelsworn Oath
Avenger utility 2: Refocus Enmity
Avenger encounter 3: Relentless Stride
Avenger daily 5: Bond of Foresight

====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

[VeliciaL]

Avenger powers are often poor striker powers. So one common way to boost the Avenger is to play an Avenger of Ioun (killer librarian), grab the feat that turns one of your at-wills into a basic melee attack, and do charge optimization.

Corellon can do this too, which makes a pretty fluffy choice for Elven Avengers, which in turn is an excellent race for pursuit Avengers.

[Dimers]

Or Dol Dorn (Eberron god?), so you can also take Power of Strength for +2/3/4 untyped damage with the same power. Not a game-changer, but not bad.

I took Power of Skill myself for our paragon game, Nightgaun7. I'm not using charging for my bonus damage, though. I'm hoping to get extra basic attacks from enemies violating my swordmage mark, and also from the party's leaders. Neither source can be taken for granted without knowing about the party makeup and the way the other players and DM act, so that's not good to base a build off. Listen to these guys instead.

(I do have the highest AC in the party, though ... without Improved Armor of Faith, a chain shirt, or any swordmage influence at all. So, yeah. Avenger = off-tank.)

[Leewei]

I'm a bit of a fan of using Power of Luck's 19-20 crit range on the higher-of-2d20 attack roll. Right out the starting gate, this gives you a 19% chance per swing to score a crit. Pick up a Vicious Greatsword (and the proficiency feat), and you're critting 1-2 times each fight for lots of fun d12s of damage.

[Nightgaun7]

Or Dol Dorn (Eberron god?), so you can also take Power of Strength for +2/3/4 untyped damage with the same power. Not a game-changer, but not bad.

I took Power of Skill myself for our paragon game, Nightgaun7. I'm not using charging for my bonus damage, though. I'm hoping to get extra basic attacks from enemies violating my swordmage mark, and also from the party's leaders. Neither source can be taken for granted without knowing about the party makeup and the way the other players and DM act, so that's not good to base a build off. Listen to these guys instead.

(I do have the highest AC in the party, though ... without Improved Armor of Faith, a chain shirt, or any swordmage influence at all. So, yeah. Avenger = off-tank.)

That's sad, I'm a terrible fighter T_T

There's someone starting a 4E game locally that I figured I'd take this Avenger to. Apparently it's a big group of combat junkies, which is fine by me. But I do want to take something good to the table.

[Kurald Galain]

But there is a such thing as putting too much into defenses, especially for a striker. The Avenger's damage is already low; it needs to focus on increasing that damage.
Yes. Generally speaking I would say that boosting your AC by one is not worth a feat, because your feats are limited and you have better priorities for them.

[Doctor Kumquat]

Right. +2 AC for a feat, unless the DM ignores you for some reason, is a good investment. +1, not so much, at least not until mid paragon or something when you're less feat starved.

[Yakk]

That's sad, I'm a terrible fighter T_T

There's someone starting a 4E game locally that I figured I'd take this Avenger to. Apparently it's a big group of combat junkies, which is fine by me. But I do want to take something good to the table.
A well built avenger is an off-tank. Unlike a Fighter, they can only "tank" one opponent at a time (as more than one screws their damage output).

They need the Fighter to keep the excess enemies off them, and the Fighter can use them to reduce the tanking load by a small amount. (Enemies who ignore the Avenger and dog-pile the Fighter get screwed -- aka dead quickly -- if the Avenger is a pursuit avenger).

[obryn]

A well built avenger is an off-tank. Unlike a Fighter, they can only "tank" one opponent at a time (as more than one screws their damage output).

They need the Fighter to keep the excess enemies off them, and the Fighter can use them to reduce the tanking load by a small amount. (Enemies who ignore the Avenger and dog-pile the Fighter get screwed -- aka dead quickly -- if the Avenger is a pursuit avenger).
Also of note, Pursuit Avengers in particular get all kinds of nasty tricks where they abduct one enemy and teleport off into a dark corner with them. Which likewise works great for an off-tank.

-O

[Dimers]

That's sad, I'm a terrible fighter T_T

Brandis looks good to me. It's more likely that I'm a terrible avenger, really, because I'm just going on instinct instead of taking advice, and my instinct has often proven wrong in D&D. We'll see whether Inh makes a decent contribution to combat. I hope so.


There's someone starting a 4E game locally that I figured I'd take this Avenger to. Apparently it's a big group of combat junkies, which is fine by me. But I do want to take something good to the table.

If you want to take something GOOD, go for a class people know is reliably excellent. There are a lot to choose from. If you want a striker in particular, rogue, barbarian or ranger is the easiest way to make sure you're doing your share. Avengers are mobile (lots of teleporting) and accurate, but can be outdone in damage by non-striker classes if you don't pick the right equipment and feats.

[Yakk]

Avengers are top-tier strikers, just hard to build.

That is because their built-in striker class feature scales, unlike other classes striker class features.

The trick where you start off by getting a basic attack, then charge optimizing, is pretty solid. Charge optimization is enough to pull off decent damage output without the avenger double-roll mechanic.

The above build is the start of such a plan. We have good (and rising) dex, and fighter multiclass, and a 2d6B1 spear. Next feat would be surprising charge, so your charges with combat advantage deal 4d6B1 damage.

It already has a per-encounter extra attack (from the fighter MC feat). The level 5 daily can give you a pile -- offtank solos and elites while the party kills everything else, and they come back to a dead elite or bloodied solo.

[Nightgaun7]

If you want to take something GOOD, go for a class people know is reliably excellent. There are a lot to choose from. If you want a striker in particular, rogue, barbarian or ranger is the easiest way to make sure you're doing your share. Avengers are mobile (lots of teleporting) and accurate, but can be outdone in damage by non-striker classes if you don't pick the right equipment and feats.

I have a barbarian in an online game, although he's only level 1, and I don't like rogues very much, and one of the other players already has a Ranger, so...

Besides, I like the idea behind the Avenger, I just want to build one that can hold his own. If he sucks and gets killed then I just roll a different character.

Zooming around picking off casters and archers sound fun, yo.

[Sol]

I love avengers. I think they're one of the coolest additions WotC made in 4e.

So I don't think it's fair at all to suggest playing a barbarian instead, particularly when it's so incredibly easy to build a terrible barbarian. At least the avenger is honest about what his secondary stat is.

There are some intricate tactical issues, but these are easy to work around once you know what you're doing, and how to play around your DM.

Most specifically, pursuit avengers are good at winning initiative, and winning initiative is generally a fantastic thing, because it means you're not immobilized and reduced to terrible implement powers, and can charge/isolate enemy casters. But then the monsters will generally go between you and your defender, and the guy with the giant sword and a robe that sprinted deep into the enemy lines is a pretty attractive target. Even if the DM doesn't metagame and put monsters next to you just to shut OoE off, your own ideal tactics sometimes draw increased attention. Also, monsters don't run away from PCs nearly as often as the developers assumed for the purpose of Censure of Pursuit.

Similarly, martyr avengers are often referred to as a trap, in that the extra damage you take from provoking attacks is usually going to be higher than the increase in your damage output as a result. And, again, drawing the attention of the monsters can easily shut off your OoE.

Unity has by far the weakest striker mechanic of the bunch, but it's extraordinarily easy to set up, as the conditions are all under your control instead of your DM's. Especially if you take the feats, it also encourages allies to focus fire, which is good tactics anyway (even if Pursuit desires otherwise).

I like pursuit best, even if only because I like Dex more than I like Int.

[Nightgaun7]

I love avengers. I think they're one of the coolest additions WotC made in 4e.

So I don't think it's fair at all to suggest playing a barbarian instead, particularly when it's so incredibly easy to build a terrible barbarian. At least the avenger is honest about what his secondary stat is.

There are some intricate tactical issues, but these are easy to work around once you know what you're doing, and how to play around your DM.

Most specifically, pursuit avengers are good at winning initiative, and winning initiative is generally a fantastic thing, because it means you're not immobilized and reduced to terrible implement powers, and can charge/isolate enemy casters. But then the monsters will generally go between you and your defender, and the guy with the giant sword and a robe that sprinted deep into the enemy lines is a pretty attractive target. Even if the DM doesn't metagame and put monsters next to you just to shut OoE off, your own ideal tactics sometimes draw increased attention. Also, monsters don't run away from PCs nearly as often as the developers assumed for the purpose of Censure of Pursuit.

Similarly, martyr avengers are often referred to as a trap, in that the extra damage you take from provoking attacks is usually going to be higher than the increase in your damage output as a result. And, again, drawing the attention of the monsters can easily shut off your OoE.

Unity has by far the weakest striker mechanic of the bunch, but it's extraordinarily easy to set up, as the conditions are all under your control instead of your DM's. Especially if you take the feats, it also encourages allies to focus fire, which is good tactics anyway (even if Pursuit desires otherwise).

I like pursuit best, even if only because I like Dex more than I like Int.

Yeah, I have to say that Pursuit sounds like the most fun, even if Unity seems like the easiest.

How good are polearms for Avengers? Worth getting into?

[Yakk]

Polearms, outside of Gamble, are useless.

To trigger your oath's double roll, you must make a melee attack against an adjacent foe while no other foes are adjacent to you.

If you have reach 2, you still move up and adjacent to your foe to trigger your oath.

Gambit could be used to prevent foes from moving adjacent to you.

Pursuit is great because it can trigger off something you want to happen. You can chase down non-melee opponents: when they shift back to attack you, they just provide you with bonus damage. Throw in that fighter MC class the build I posted above (in the spoiler) uses, and you get 1 attack/encounter when they shift back, and then follow up with bonus damage on your next round.

[Nightgaun7]

What gear would you recommend, assuming standard WBL plus one or two items of same level or thereabouts?

[Damon_Tor]

Darn it! Oh well, as long as I still can use greatswords

Actually, Avengers are one of the few classes who should be using axes instead of swords. Their redundant attack rolls make the swords' +3 proficiency bonus much less important than the axes' bigger hit die... and Avengers need all the damage they can get.

[Nightgaun7]

Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Gouge)


Why the Gouge over the Executioner's Axe or Fullblade? It's a polearm, is it not, and I thought Avengers were supposed to be adjacent like someone else pointed out.

EDIT: I'm assuming I just missed something about the gouge is all.

[VeliciaL]

Why the Gouge over the Executioner's Axe or Fullblade? It's a polearm, is it not, and I thought Avengers were supposed to be adjacent like someone else pointed out.

EDIT: I'm assuming I just missed something about the gouge is all.

The gouge is not a polearm, no. It's a Spear/Axe (great for chargers), and it doesn't have reach.

[Yakk]

Gouge is a 2d6B1 Axe/Spear, so tied for the highest [W] damage in the game.
Gouge is a Spear, so is secondary attributes are Dex and Wis.

Spear's have a bunch of charge-boosting feats. Axes have a bunch of crit-boosting feats. Both charging and critting are good ways to boost Avenger damage output.

Mord is a 2d6B1 Hammer, same [W] damage, but the hammer's secondary attribute is Con.

Exec Axe is 1d12B2, slightly less damage per [W] than the Gouge, but is high-crit if I remember. It is tempting, but secondary attribute for Axe is Con.

Fullblade is +3 prof 1d12 high-crit, and secondary attribute for Heavy Blades is Dex. +1 accuracy matters less for Avengers than other classes.

Great Spear is +3 prof 1d10 damage with reach. Reach and +1 to hit matter less for Avengers.

[Sol]

Gouge and Mordenkrad are brutal 1, not brutal 2. Though you probably know that the minimum damage die result is 2, and that's what you meant.

Avenging Resolution is a pretty nifty feat if you pick up a gouge (and actually makes Falchions pretty competitive as well, particularly for elves), because it drastically boosts your minimum (and thus average) [W] result on multi-dice weapons. 2d4 becomes a guaranteed 6-8 damage per [W], and 2d6 guarantees 6-12, or an average hovering around 9. That's massive.

[Nightgaun7]

Ah thanks. I figured it had reach cause of the spear bit.

[Yakk]

Gouge and Mordenkrad are brutal 1, not brutal 2. Though you probably know that the minimum damage die result is 2, and that's what you meant.
Ya, sorry, brain and keyboard not connected.

[cildan]

I thought Censure of Pursuit only triggered if they move away and did nto shift?

[tcrudisi]

I thought Censure of Pursuit only triggered if they move away and did nto shift?

Shifting is moving, so it counts.

For that matter, pull, push and slide are also movement. It's difficult to come up with a scenario where one could willingly leave via pull or push. However, a Bard who uses his heal on himself and slides himself one square away could be considered "willingly moving" himself away from the Avenger. I would count it, though I can see an argument for the other side.

[cildan]

My DM owes me an awful lot of backdated damage then :tongue:

[tcrudisi]

My DM owes me an awful lot of backdated damage then :tongue:

If you are going to show this to your DM, then allow me to help:

Censure of Pursuit: If your oath of enmity target moves away from you willingly ...

The Rules Compendium (the most updated rules source for 4e, which includes all the errata thus far) defines move on page 200: "Any instance of movement, whether it is done willingly or unwillingly. Whenever a creature, an object, or an effect leaves a square to enter another, it is moving. Shifting, teleporting, and being pushed are all examples of moves."

[Breccia]

I made an avenger NPC for my campaign that was partially inspired by Miko, only sane. Anyhow yeah, the challenge was to build him in a way that he wouldn't be completely destroyed.

Most of the stuff I did was already mentioned above: chain shirt, Unarmored Agility, etc. etc. I also choose to make him multiclass monk, not just because the Avenger class description implied that was the standard, but because this gives you Flurry of Blows that can shift 2 targets away from your Oath target, just before you burn your action point, without the need for an attack roll on either of them.

I also made him Zealous Assassin, which again fit his backstory, but had the side-effect of some nice invisibility options. Invisible to target (save ends) bypasses most low-defense concerns and is also hilarious.

I gave him displacer armor because, even errata-ed, it's one of the strongest one-round defenses I've seen. He also took monk powers Iron Dragon Defense and Step Between Worlds, uses a Cloak of Resistance, potions that boost Fortitude defense (any avenger's lowest defense) and took Linguist so enemies couldn't discuss battle plans in front of him.