3.5 Melee Cleric Help

[TeslaJr]

My group is starting a new 10th level campaign, and since our DM said he'd allow DMM and Nightsticks I thought i'd give it a try. I've never made a cleric before, so I'm having a bit of trouble making my character. What I've decided on so far is:

Race: Human

Alignment: LN

Class progression: Cleric 4/ Fighter 1/ Ordained Champion (Hextor) 5

Domains: Planning (for the free Extend Spell), Undeath (for free Extra Turning), and War

Abilities (28 point buy):
Str: 14
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Wis: 18 (16 + 2 from levels)
Int: 10
Cha: 12

The feats are where I start having the most trouble. I know that I'm going to get Extra Turning, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM(Persist), and Power Attack, but other than those I'm not too sure on what to get.

[Starmage21]

My group is starting a new 10th level campaign, and since our DM said he'd allow DMM and Nightsticks I thought i'd give it a try. I've never made a cleric before, so I'm having a bit of trouble making my character. What I've decided on so far is:

Race: Human

Alignment: LN

Class progression: Cleric 4/ Fighter 1/ Ordained Champion (Hextor) 5

Domains: Planning (for the free Extend Spell), Undeath (for free Extra Turning), and War

Abilities (28 point buy):
Str: 14
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Wis: 18 (16 + 2 from levels)
Int: 10
Cha: 12

The feats are where I start having the most trouble. I know that I'm going to get Extra Turning, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM(Persist), and Power Attack, but other than those I'm not too sure on what to get.

I like Craft Contingent Spell (Complete Arcane) at level 12. You can lay buffs down on yourself with a quick 1-word activation that should count as a free/swift action. Instant Divine Trio? YES PLEASE!

Other than that, you are pretty much doing it right.

[ramrod]

My battle cleric has powers attack, cleave, martial study and travel devotion and it is extremely good fun lol

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

With DMM: Persist and Night Stick abuse there's absolutely no reason to lose spellcasting levels to get BAB.

Zarus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=1) is a better choice for a Human melee Cleric. Start with the Strength and War domains and get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (Bravado (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30) is fitting) and you won't even need to waste domains to gain feats. Get the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 for either of those instead of spontaneously casting inflict spells. Trade the Strength domain's granted power for the Divine Restoration ACF in Dungeonscape.

For classes I'd recommend Cleric 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10, gaining the feat prerequisite for Divine Oracle via the Frog God's Fane in CS without spending a feat on it. Feats should be Extend, Persist, DMM: Persist, and Extra Turning at 1st, Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) at 3rd, Power Attack at 6th, and Craft Rod at 9th. Your Contemplative domains should be Law (or get Law Devotion instead) and Destiny. Once you hit level 17 you can DMM: Persist Choose Destiny.

An item familiar is an intelligent item which means it's treated as a construct, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining and they continue to function in antimagic and dead magic areas. Make it a ring and wear a glove or gauntlet over it so opponents never have line of sight/effect to it and cannot target it directly. Invest every skill point you can into it for the greatest return. Note that it gets actions every round just like a creature and it can use those actions to activate its own abilities. For example it can start as a Ring of Protection +1, which you pay full price for. You can then upgrade it to a Ring of Invisibility with a +1 Deflection bonus added per MIC p234 at a cost of 10,000 gp and 800 xp. Every round after you've made your attacks it can activate its own Invisibility effect to make you invisible until you attack again. I'd add on a Ring of Sustenance effect at +50% cost for being added to another item, at 1,875 gp and 150 xp. Note that at level 10 you'll have an extra 4,500 xp from the 10% bonus it gives, so craft all your own Night Sticks and never worry about being a level behind for it.

For starting gear, assuming standard WBL of 49k gp, I'd start with the following:
Masterwork Greatsword (350 gp)
Masterwork Full Plate (1,450 gp)
^ Restful Crystal (500 gp)
+1 Animated Heavy Steel Shield (9,170 gp)
Standard Strand of Prayer Beads missing the Bead of Smiting (9,000 gp per DMG)
Item Familiar as above (13,875 gp, 950 xp)
Reliquary Holy Symbol (1,000 gp)
Three Night Sticks, crafted yourself (11,250 gp, 900 xp)
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, crafted yourself (1,500 gp, 120 xp)
905 gp remaining for mundane gear, wands, scrolls, material components, spell focus, etc.

Buffs! Every day you get 22 turn/rebuke attempts. Activate the Bead of Karma on your Strand of Prayer Beads for a caster level of 14 before casting your buffs. If using pointbuy, reduce your base Cha to 10 and increase your base Dex to 10. If you keep Cha 12, one more Night Stick plus casting Eagle's Splendor will give you one more DMM: Persist each day.
DMM: Persistent (3): Divine Power, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Mass Lesser Vigor.
Lesser Rod of Extended (3): Magic Vestment: armor, Magic Vestment: shield, Delay Poison.
Other buffs cast normally: Greater Resistance, Extended Greater Magic Weapon: greatsword.

Future items: Try to get a 6th level Pearl of Power and make a standard Metamagic Rod of Extend by level ~13. Use these to keep Energy Immunity x5 and Superior Resistance continually active on yourself for only two 6th level spell slots/day.

[herrhauptmann]

Biffoniacus_Furiou has already said almost everything that needs to be said. I just want to add a few things.

* You don't need restful armor crystals unless you think you'll be swapping out your armor regularly. You can get armor with the restful property added for the same price as the crystal(dungeonscape I think).

* Since you're starting at 10th level, and you'll be relying on buffs, you can go Cloistered Cleric. The hit to your HD and BAB will be covered by the buffs, and more than offset by your increased skill points. (Granted, it doesn't fit the martial flavor, even if you choose a war god)

* Trade your knowledge domain (from cloistered cleric)for knowledge devotion. You'll get bonuses on attack/damage based on your knowledge checks.

* If you're going to go for lots of turning, you can go Cleric of Pelor with Sun Domain, then shift into Radiant Servant of Pelor. Your turn undead attempts are a separate pool from your Improved Turning attempts, and nightsticks boost both...

* Follow up RSoP with Sacred Exorcist.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Biffoniacus_Furiou has already said almost everything that needs to be said. I just want to add a few things.

* You don't need restful armor crystals unless you think you'll be swapping out your armor regularly. You can get armor with the restful property added for the same price as the crystal(dungeonscape I think).

* Since you're starting at 10th level, and you'll be relying on buffs, you can go Cloistered Cleric. The hit to your HD and BAB will be covered by the buffs, and more than offset by your increased skill points. (Granted, it doesn't fit the martial flavor, even if you choose a war god)

* Trade your knowledge domain (from cloistered cleric)for knowledge devotion. You'll get bonuses on attack/damage based on your knowledge checks.

* If you're going to go for lots of turning, you can go Cleric of Pelor with Sun Domain, then shift into Radiant Servant of Pelor. Your turn undead attempts are a separate pool from your Improved Turning attempts, and nightsticks boost both...

* Follow up RSoP with Sacred Exorcist.

On Restful Armor: That armor property is magical, so he would have to buy +1 armor before applying it. He can put the restful crystal on masterwork armor and buff it with Magic Vestment for cheaper.

On Cloistered Cleric: He would need to multiclass for heavy armor proficiency if he goes Cloistered Cleric. This is often negated by (Greater) Luminous Armor but he's a nongood character worshipping an evil deity.

On RSoP: Extra Greater Turning is extra uses of the Sun domain's Greater Turning, which clearly states, "...you can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning." It's a modification to one of your normal turn uses, not a separate pool of turning uses. RSoP gives you the ability to modify an additional number of regular turning attempts to make them greater turnings. Extra Turning does not apply to Greater Turning. Plus this does not coincide with the LN cleric of a LE deity that he's going for.

[herrhauptmann]

Bah, bah, and bah.
You're right on all 3 counts. (When I was working on a Tower of Deadly Evil character, I was told that Greater Turning was in addition to Regular, and never questioned it after)

He is starting at level 10, so the cost of +1 armor would be negligible. It would also allow him to put other, more useful enchantments on his armor as well. Assuming he doesn't want that animated shield.

[Gavinfoxx]

The best way to increase turning attempts is to get differing pools that can actually be used to power Divine Metamagic.

This includes:

Destroy Undead
Rebuke Undead
Turn Undead

Generally, you can start with destroy undead, and get rebuke/turn via PrC. Death Delver and Sacred Exorcist, I think. And remember, each extra turning adds its count to EACH of the pools...

[Firechanter]

Well, we don't know if Flaws are even allowed (for instance, I don't allow them, but use the Pathfinder feat progression so that's even better), so that may throw a wrench into Biffo's build.

@Tesla: word of advice: don't try to stack Nightsticks. You may cause your DM having a fit. ;) One Nightstick is really enough.

If you're sticking with the original plan of taking the War Domain (in itself a weakish choice), be sure to pick up the Holy Warrior feart. +5 damage to every attack is nothing to scoff at.

Knowledge Devotion may cause a bit of a problem, seeing as you only have 10 Int and not really a lot of room to shift around ability points. Cloistered Cleric would help a lot, but you'd have to pick up the Heavy Armour proficiency somewhere else. The low BAB however would be irrelevant since you will persist Divine Power.

FWIW, I built a DMM Cloistered Cleric that didn't use any armour at all, but a Monk's Belt as soon as he could afford it. He is an Archer though, so my feat choices won't help you a lot.

[Raendyn]

Domains: Planning (for the free Extend Spell), Undeath (for free Extra Turning), and War


How are you getting undeath domain as a Cleric of Hextor?


The best way to increase turning attempts is to get differing pools that can actually be used to power Divine Metamagic.

This includes:

Destroy Undead
Rebuke Undead
Turn Undead

I don't think this is accurate.
The only ways I know to get extra Turning pools that can be used to fuel divine feats is


Your regular pool.(which should be swaped out and then regained through PrC's)
The Azurin Cleric substitution lvls for Channel incarnum
Death Delver's(or any similar) rebuke pool
Sacred Exorcist's (or similar) turn pool
The Sun Domain's Domain power from the Dragonlance Campaign setting.

[TeslaJr]

@Biffoniacus_Furiou: That's really interesting, but would it work without flaws?

@Firechanter: Yeah, I realize that the War domain isn't the best, but I get it for free since I'm taking Ordained Champion. Also, did not know you could stack nightsticks. That seems just plain OP

@Raendyn: According to the PHB, a cleric doesn't have to be aligned with a god, which allows them to choose from a larger list of domains (pg 32, I think). They still have to deal with alignment restrictions though.

[Firechanter]

Also, did not know you could stack nightsticks. That seems just plain OP

Yeah, basically you can't, but there are people out there who don't get tired of arguing that you can. But just never mind. ^^

Ordained Champion goes down well with Holy Warrior, because the feat meshes well with spontaneous War conversion. The extra domain is also nice; the other abilities are more like gimmicks in my opinion. But trading one CL for a domain isn't half bad.
However, Ordained Champion requires the worship of either Herioneous or Hextor, or whatever gods are appropriate for your campaign setting.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

@Biffoniacus_Furiou: That's really interesting, but would it work without flaws?

Sure it would work without flaws, you'd just need to drop two feats, Item Familiar and Power Attack are the best candidates. In that case I'd pick Power Attack back up at 12, but Item Familiar isn't anywhere near necessary. You could actually have a few more Night Sticks starting out if you get rid of that ring, though you'll miss out on being able to upgrade powers onto an intelligent item later.

On stacking Night Sticks, its benefit is not expressed as a bonus, so the rules on bonuses not stacking doesn't apply to them. Furthermore, they mimic the Extra Turning feat, which does stack with itself if taken multiple times. There's more rules support in favor of them stacking than not.

[Raendyn]

Also, did not know you could stack nightsticks. That seems just plain OP.

You can't stack them as Firechanter said and here's why.

You have Cha + 3 + misc (feats/items) Turn attampts/day, lets say this equals X Turns/day. Getting a nightstick makes it X+4, that is your daily capacity. You can not attempt to turn more than X+4. tha means that if you swap your nightstick you still will be able to turn X+4.
You dont expend charges, you can turn as many times as your pools allows you. Same happens with mutliple casts of Eagle's splendor.


@Raendyn: According to the PHB, a cleric doesn't have to be aligned with a god, which allows them to choose from a larger list of domains (pg 32, I think). They still have to deal with alignment restrictions though.

But you believe in a god, Hextor. It is prereq to your prestige. Also, you cant start as believing in an idea that provides those 2 domains and then swap to Hextor and keep your former domains.



On stacking Night Sticks, its benefit is not expressed as a bonus, so the rules on bonuses not stacking doesn't apply to them. Furthermore, they mimic the Extra Turning feat, which does stack with itself if taken multiple times. There's more rules support in favor of them stacking than not.

Com on bro, since when did you become of those guys?:smalltongue:

WotC explained how it works clearly...

[TeslaJr]

But you believe in a god, Hextor. It is prereq to your prestige. Also, you cant start as believing in an idea that provides those 2 domains and then swap to Hextor and keep your former domains.

First time making a cleric so I figured I'd make a few mistakes, but I don't remember reading anything that said I can't do that. I mean, it seems more like a RP problem than a rules problem. Please, if you can find the text on it, show me. I'd like to make this character correctly.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First time making a cleric so I figured I'd make a few mistakes, but I don't remember reading anything that said I can't do that. I mean, it seems more like a RP problem than a rules problem. Please, if you can find the text on it, show me. I'd like to make this character correctly.

PHB page 32, you pick a deity and pick domains from that deity's list, or you choose to not be devoted to a particular deity and pick any two domains you want.

If a cleric switches deities, or if he switches from not worshiping a particular deity to worshiping one, then you follow the Divine Conversion rules in PH2 page 193.

The special abilities and spells that you get from your domains are supernatural and are given to your character from your deity. Hextor is not capable of giving you the benefits of those domains, so choosing those domains and then switching to Hextor basically leaves you with no domains. You still have them written down on your character sheet, but Hextor cannot grant you the benefits of either of those.

[TeslaJr]

PHB page 32, you pick a deity and pick domains from that deity's list, or you choose to not be devoted to a particular deity and pick any two domains you want.

If a cleric switches deities, or if he switches from not worshiping a particular deity to worshiping one, then you follow the Divine Conversion rules in PH2 page 193.

The special abilities and spells that you get from your domains are supernatural and are given to your character from your deity. Hextor is not capable of giving you the benefits of those domains, so choosing those domains and then switching to Hextor basically leaves you with no domains. You still have them written down on your character sheet, but Hextor cannot grant you the benefits of either of those.

Okay, I see what you guys are saying. Darn. At least I have the spare feats to cover ES and ET. So, since I can't take those, what domains would you suggest?

[Starmage21]

Okay, I see what you guys are saying. Darn. At least I have the spare feats to cover ES and ET. So, since I can't take those, what domains would you suggest?

The War domain is the only real domain you need, and the class grants it to you for free as an extra domain.

I'd pick up Destruction and Domination as your other two domains through Hextor.

Just remember to actually memorize a few healing spells. You wont be able to spontaneously cast them.

[herrhauptmann]

Knowledge Devotion may cause a bit of a problem, seeing as you only have 10 Int and not really a lot of room to shift around ability points. Cloistered Cleric would help a lot, but you'd have to pick up the Heavy Armour proficiency somewhere else. The low BAB however would be irrelevant since you will persist Divine Power.

If he does it as a cloistered cleric he'll have a base of 6 skill points per level, instead of 2.
That's more than enough to power the devotion, even with a 10 int.

Heavy armor itself, I'm not actually convinced taht's really worth anything. Yes, the PC has an 8 dex, so he gains nothing from lighter armors. But is the extra +4-5 AC really worth it? Not unless you're super focused on AC, which this character isn't.
You can get a mithral breastplate for only a little more money than the MW plate, which grants much better movement and encumbrance penalties (ie: none). Or you can sacrifice 1 more point of AC for mithral chain, and get absolutely no armor check penalties, for less than MW Plate.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Four points of AC for light armor vs heavy armor may not seem like much, but this means an opponent can two-handed Power Attack for four more points and still reliably hit. Plus a Cloistered Cleric isn't proficient with any shields. Cloistered Cleric will give you +1, maybe +2 to hit and to damage on every attack via Knowledge Devotion and Knowledge skills. But when it causes you to be taking 10+ additional damage per hit from a Fire Giant or similar opponent, that +1 or +2 isn't going to feel like it's worth it. Plus it's not very fitting to use a bookworm cleric variant on a warrior cleric.

[Raendyn]

Okay, I see what you guys are saying. Darn. At least I have the spare feats to cover ES and ET. So, since I can't take those, what domains would you suggest?

I suggest Law and War, the War will help you get rid of that fighter lvl in order to get to OChampion, and Law is good and also has a good Devotion. Check Complete Champion, you can swap any domain (power and Spell list), for its corresponding devotion feat.