3.5 Warlock Help

[herrhauptmann]

I'm working on a level 12 gestalt gish character, and could use some help.

Per the houserules, there's only 1 divine character allowed in the party, and we get feats at every odd level. Enhancement bonuses do not exist. No stat boosting items like belt of giant strength anymore.

Stats: We do get two 18s to work with, and 25PB for the rest of our stats.

One of my ideas is:
Rogue/swashbuckler//Warlock8/Binder1/Hellfirewarlock3
Rogue and swashbuckler will of course be combined with Daring outlaw. And boosted with Craven. Will probably also take Darkstalker.
I'm pretty sure that my eldritch blasts will allow sneak attack so long as I'm not doing lines/arcs/spheres that attack an entire area.


A second idea that might get some more thought if a small noncasting paladin dip is allowed by the DM.
Hexblade9 (dark companion) /Paladin of Tyranny3 (maybe wyrmslayer with noncasting) in place of the rogue/swashbuckler.

My questions:

How many invocations should I have, since my invoker level is 11. I think it's 2 Least, 3 Lesser, 2 Greater. But could be wrong.
One will obviously be taken with brimstone blast or hellrime blast.

I was reading a guide for melee warlocks, but I'm unsure of which blast invocation I should use most. Eldritch claws? Glaive? Just keep to my regular blast? Which is best for melee warlocks? Any downsides to the blasts that might not be immediately apparent? (I've never done a warlock before)

I've seen some people recommend wiz/sorc PrC's for a warlock, but how do they qualify for those when a requirement is "Arcane Spells of 3rd Level?"

A side question, is there a way to get the cleric spell Ice Axe as an invocation? Preferably doable by level 12? I've found a few ways like Rainbow Servant and Arcane Disciple, but I don't think those can help a warlock at all. (Found some more in pathfinder, but this is a 3.5 game only.) DM won't allow the creation of deities or spells at the moment.

[Kane0]

Gestalt gish you say? Well, Hexblade or paladin are both good for Cha synergy and Hexblade in particular fits like a glove with warlock in terms of flavor.

Eldrtich Glaive and Claws are both fine choices, and since you get more feats than normal you can pick them both up if you so desire. You might also want to pick up an Extra Invocation feat or two if there are any leasts/lessers you want. Standard eldritch blast isnt the greatest, and don't ever take hideous blow. Eldritch spear is good to have as a backup, and try to get Vitriolic blast ASAP as well.

Also don't rule out scout for a gestalt warlock, it is about as good as a rogue depending on how you want to fight.

Binder/HFW is pretty much standard on a warlock, so keep that in any case.

As for your questions you should have 3 leasts, 3 lessers and 1 greater.
There are a few ways to get in to casting PrCs, this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298616) may help you out a little.

I don't know of any way to get Ice axe as a warlock invocation sorry, or any normal spell for that matter. That would probably require homebrew.

[Snowbluff]

One of my ideas is:
Rogue/swashbuckler//Warlock8/Binder1/Hellfirewarlock3
Rogue and swashbuckler will of course be combined with Daring outlaw. And boosted with Craven. Will probably also take Darkstalker.
I'm pretty sure that my eldritch blasts will allow sneak attack so long as I'm not doing lines/arcs/spheres that attack an entire area.


A second idea that might get some more thought if a small noncasting paladin dip is allowed by the DM.
Hexblade9 (dark companion) /Paladin of Tyranny3 (maybe wyrmslayer with noncasting) in place of the rogue/swashbuckler.
I would suggest using Spellthief or Binder (SA Vestige) instead of Rogue or Bardsader with Doomspeak instead of Hexblade.



My questions:

How many invocations should I have, since my invoker level is 11. I think it's 2 Least, 3 Lesser, 2 Greater. But could be wrong.
One will obviously be taken with brimstone blast or hellrime blast.
3 ever 5 levels. 3 of each level at 20. You should have 3 least, 3 lesser, and 1 Greater.

I was reading a guide for melee warlocks, but I'm unsure of which blast invocation I should use most. Eldritch claws? Glaive? Just keep to my regular blast? Which is best for melee warlocks? Any downsides to the blasts that might not be immediately apparent? (I've never done a warlock before)Claws is not an invocation, and only works well in specialized builds. Glaive is the strongest, but regular blasting is useful f you are not in range.

Vitrolic is the best Essence for pure damage. Normally Blast is affecting by SR, but Vitriolic makes it conjured acid like an orb or acid arrow.

Quicken SLA is useful for dishing out more damage. Use it on a Eldritch Glaive attack for a full attack action as a swift.

I've seen some people recommend wiz/sorc PrC's for a warlock, but how do they qualify for those when a requirement is "Arcane Spells of 3rd Level?"
Through tricks of what would be early entry for other classes. Schools being inclusive rather than exclusive means a Warlock can use Precocious Apprentice. Magical Training is another good start. A more Kosher spell thief on one side is usually more appropriate.

A side question, is there a way to get the cleric spell Ice Axe as an invocation? Preferably doable by level 12? I've found a few ways like Rainbow Servant and Arcane Disciple, but I don't think those can help a warlock at all. (Found some more in pathfinder, but this is a 3.5 game only.) DM won't allow the creation of deities or spells at the moment.
Nope.

[IronFist]

I would do something like
Side one: Warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3
This is your meat and potatoes. Get as much invocations (and as much eldritch blast damage dice) as possible.
Side two: Binder 5/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/Swashbuckler 5/Shou Disciple 5
You can get Sneak Attack from vestiges, allowing you to qualify for Daring Outlaw; Naberius keeps Con damage at bay. Other than that, take Eldritch Claws, Beast Strike, Improved Natural Attack (claws) and Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike).

Goodies (full progression):
- BAB +18
- Unarmed Strike 2d6
- Eldritch Blast 9d6, Hellfire Blast 15d6
- Sneak Attack 5d6
- Flurry of Blows: 4 attacks at -1 penalty
- Eldritch Claw damage = 25d6
- Beast Strike damage = 40d6
If you're flanking, that makes it 45d6 per attack.

Now, for level 12, I'd do Warlock 9/Hellfire Warlock 3//Binder 5/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/Shou Disciple 2.

[nedz]

I'd think about a swift hunter on the LHS. Use FE to get Skirmish against foes who would normally be immune and grab a few spells. Skirmish is good for Warlocks because you only get 1 blast a round, well until you get E Chain; Sneak is more dice, but they rarely trigger unless you are using E Glaive and take a flank.

E Glaive gives you iteratives and allows flanking, though (obviously) you have to me in melee.

For the RHS: Warlock 10/Chameleon 2 is better due to increased flexibility. Craft with your floating feat in downtime, pick up Extra Invocation otherwise. You would be 1 level shy of Greater Invocations though, still XP is a river.
Hellfire gives you more damage, but there are more important things.

[herrhauptmann]

I would suggest using Spellthief or Binder (SA Vestige) instead of Rogue or Bardsader with Doomspeak instead of Hexblade.
Bardsader? Bard/crusader multiclass? One of the reasons I didn't go spellthief, is that I wasn't sure it would be magic-y enough.
I also thought of doing rogue/swash//spellthief, and offsetting the rogue/spellthief sneak attack. Which should give me something like 9d6+12 SA at level 12.


Okay, going over this some more andfinally found eldritch claws, never knew it was a feat. Couldn't figure out why I couldn't find it under invocations. Unless I can use TWF with my claws (I doubt it, since they're natural weapons) I'll probably skip it. I'll rely on a melee weapon if I can't 5ft step.

Another feat I'm planning to take is Mortalbane(BoVD), which should give extra damage to my SLA invocations (less damage on certain creatures). If I'm reading it right, I can use it 5/day for 2d6 extra damage, per SLA.
So that's 5/day on Eldritch Glaive (which should last the entire round for a single use). I can then apply it to Vitriolic Sphere for another 5/day.

Looked at that Holy Warlock PrC. I gotta say, I want that one AND hellfire... Sucker even gives two different auras, courage and fear. And technically, nothing says I can't do it. HFW doesn't have an alignment requirement.

Q: Can I activate Dark One's Own Luck 3 times each morning for boosts to each of my saves? Or is that overly cheesy?


Quicken SLA is useful for dishing out more damage. Use it on a Eldritch Glaive attack for a full attack action as a swift.
Hmm, Quicken SLA says I can only use it on SLA's less than half my caster level minus 4. So as an 11th level warlock, what does that mean? Only on my least invocations?


A shame about that Ice Axe, if I'd gone for it, I think I would've started a Winter Knight flavor for my character.

Invocations I'm currently looking at:
Least: Eldritch glaive and spear. See the unseen. Dark one's own luck. Swimming the styx.
Lesser: Mask of flesh. Fell Flight. Hellrime blast (I think the secondary effect would be better than more damage), Flee the scene, and Voidsense.
Greater Invocations: Vitriolic Blast and Chilling tentacles.

[IronFist]

Okay, going over this some more andfinally found eldritch claws, never knew it was a feat. Couldn't figure out why I couldn't find it under invocations. Unless I can use TWF with my claws (I doubt it, since they're natural weapons) I'll probably skip it. I'll rely on a melee weapon if I can't 5ft step.
You can't use TWF with it, but you get 2 claws and you can get more attacks from (Improved) Rapidstrike.
However, if you use Beast Strike, you can indeed use it with two-weapon fighting. I don't think there is any weapon around that makes -2 accuracy on 40d6 attack worth it, though.


Another feat I'm planning to take is Mortalbane(BoVD), which should give extra damage to my SLA invocations (less damage on certain creatures). If I'm reading it right, I can use it 5/day for 2d6 extra damage, per SLA.
So that's 5/day on Eldritch Glaive (which should last the entire round for a single use). I can then apply it to Vitriolic Sphere for another 5/day.
I'm guessing you meant vitriolic blast. Initially I thought it wouldn't work, but vitriolic blast does indeed deal damage by itself. By RAW it would only work on the 2d6 damage the target suffers in the following rounds, though.
However, notice you would have to take Mortalbane twice to have this happen. Mortalbane is only a no brainer for low level warlocks - at 12th level, I'm not sure you should spend a feat slot on it, let alone two.


Looked at that Holy Warlock PrC. I gotta say, I want that one AND hellfire... Sucker even gives two different auras, courage and fear. And technically, nothing says I can't do it. HFW doesn't have an alignment requirement.
Yeah, I suggested it before. Enlightened Spirit sucks for everything, except gestalt, where it shines.


Q: Can I activate Dark One's Own Luck 3 times each morning for boosts to each of my saves? Or is that overly cheesy?
No, you can't. You can only have Dark One's Own Luck active once.


Hmm, Quicken SLA says I can only use it on SLA's less than half my caster level minus 4. So as an 11th level warlock, what does that mean? Only on my least invocations?
Each invocation has a listed equivalent level. But yeah, only some of your least invocations. Remember the feat must be taken for each spell-like ability separetely.



Invocations I'm currently looking at:
Least: Eldritch glaive and spear. See the unseen. Dark one's own luck. Swimming the styx.
Lesser: Mask of flesh. Fell Flight. Hellrime blast (I think the secondary effect would be better than more damage), Flee the scene, and Voidsense.
Greater Invocations: Vitriolic Blast and Chilling tentacles.
Too many essences, too many shapes. I see you have eldritch glaive listed and you mentioned TWF - do know you can't combine both.
Check out this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265455&page=1), it rates invocations quite well.

[nedz]

Q: Can I activate Dark One's Own Luck 3 times each morning for boosts to each of my saves? Or is that overly cheesy?

You can activate Dark One's Own Luck at will, however you can only have one active at a time. Basically it's a standard action to switch the bonus between your three saves.


Hmm, Quicken SLA says I can only use it on SLA's less than half my caster level minus 4. So as an 11th level warlock, what does that mean? Only on my least invocations?


There's a table in the MM, also here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#quickenSpellLikeAbility).

Each invocation has an effective spell level listed, this includes shapes and essences.

At Warlock 10-11 you can only Quicken invocations with a effective spell level of 0 or 1; Warlock 12-13 effective spell levels 0-2; etc.

Suppose you had Quicken SLA Eldritch Blast.

Eldritch Blast has an effective spell level of 1 so you could use this from 10th, but Eldritch Spear has an effective spell level of 2 so you would need to be 12th to use Eldritch Blast with this shape.

This is all explained in the CArc Errata.

[Blightedmarsh]

What about combining warlock with psion/ic warrior. Warlock provides most (if not all) of your combat ability whilst your manifester levels give you a lot of buffing and out of combat utility power. Psichic reformation get you access to all those situationaly useful invocations you ordinarily wouldn't want to be tied to.

[Ruethgar]

If you can get Beast Strike, Rapid Strike, Flailing Blows and other extra attacks, Eldritch Claws can get pretty sick.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Go Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), use the Half-Humans variant in Races of Destiny p150. Replace Rogue/Swashbuckler with Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon) 1/ Thug Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) (Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) optional) 9/ Noncasting (CW) Paladin of Tyranny 2. Use the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) sub levels for Fighter, plus free bonuses (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a), and say you visited the Otyugh Hole in CS to get Menacing Demeanor without spending a feat on it. Take Dreadful Wrath (PGtF), Imperious Command (DotU), and the Never Outnumbered skill trick (CS).

Check out the Fear Handbook (http://web.archive.org/web/20120520034053/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) to get an idea of how powerful this build will be.

[herrhauptmann]

You can't use TWF with it, but you get 2 claws and you can get more attacks from (Improved) Rapidstrike.
However, if you use Beast Strike, you can indeed use it with two-weapon fighting. I don't think there is any weapon around that makes -2 accuracy on 40d6 attack worth it, though.

Rapidstrike would require a type change for my character. Elan would be the easiest I think, or necropolitan. Also, with rogue/swash, I won't have the bab until level 12.


I'm guessing you meant vitriolic blast. Initially I thought it wouldn't work, but vitriolic blast does indeed deal damage by itself. By RAW it would only work on the 2d6 damage the target suffers in the following rounds, though.
However, notice you would have to take Mortalbane twice to have this happen. Mortalbane is only a no brainer for low level warlocks - at 12th level, I'm not sure you should spend a feat slot on it, let alone two.

I'm pretty sure I only need to take mortalbane once. The sample monster was able to use it 5 times for EACH of its SLAs.
For me the basic Eldritch blast is an SLA. But so are all of my invocations, both essences, blast shapes, and regular invocations that don't work with my blast at all (like chilling tentacles).


Each invocation has a listed equivalent level. But yeah, only some of your least invocations. Remember the feat must be taken for each spell-like ability separetely.




Too many essences, too many shapes. I see you have eldritch glaive listed and you mentioned TWF - do know you can't combine both.
Check out this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265455&page=1), it rates invocations quite well.
I know it's too many, even with the feat Extra Invocation. Like I said, those are the ones I'm considering. Bookmarked the guide. Best one I found before that was Shinken's

[IronFist]

Rapidstrike would require a type change for my character. Elan would be the easiest I think, or necropolitan. Also, with rogue/swash, I won't have the bab until level 12.
Rogue/Swash is not that good a setup, though.


I'm pretty sure I only need to take mortalbane once. The sample monster was able to use it 5 times for EACH of its SLAs.
Reread the description, you're right. Each time you take it you get 5 extra uses.


I know it's too many, even with the feat Extra Invocation. Like I said, those are the ones I'm considering. Bookmarked the guide. Best one I found before that was Shinken's
The most recent handbooks basically merge info from the melee warlock handbook, warlock information compilation and have an extremely good rating of invocations done by LonelyTylenol.