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Yora
2013-08-23, 03:33 AM
Are there any other games that use character classes than D&D and d20 games?

Zombimode
2013-08-23, 03:41 AM
Well, older DSA editions (anything pre 4e) were much stronger class-based then most D&D editions, but since that changed for DSA 4e I guess it doesn't count.

Black Jester
2013-08-23, 03:50 AM
That depends on how you define 'class based', i.e. how strict the confinements of a template or role must be to count as a class. It is very easy to create the idea of classes and the perceived orientation and role definition of such an issue without the restrictions and limitations.
Are the templates in many Gurps games already something like classes even though they are mostly non-binding and offer no mechanical advantage over someone with the same abilities but no template? Does Shadowrun count as a class-based game, as the system tends to favor strongly specialized characters in more or less fixed roles, even though there is no class metagame aspect?

Yora
2013-08-23, 03:56 AM
No, you still pick whatever ability you want. Those are not classes.

Rondodu
2013-08-23, 04:12 AM
I would say it depends on what you call a “class”.

INS/MV hasa hierarchy which gives you access to powers others can’t use, but that’s not very restrictive, so I wouldn’t call them “classes”

Cadwallon has jobs which restricts the skills you can use, as far as I can remember from my single session. They may be more akin a Warhammer’s careers, though.

Mazes and Minotaurs minotaurs obviously have classes, but I guess you could consider them a retro D&D homage.

I don’t know of a system which is as restrictive as D&D without being a direct shout out. I’m pretty sure D&D already fills that space. Plus, you know, I think (although there is no doubt I’m in the minority here) that D&D is an awful, awful system that no one else should want to reproduce.

Yora
2013-08-23, 04:17 AM
Actually, I realized that I hate every single RPG that is out there.

However, all the classless RPGs are doing such nonsense like dice pools, counting the number of dice that roll a 4-6, getting action points to spend on special moves, and so on.
I was wondering if there are any class-based games that don't have the stupid math of AD&D or the massive rules of d20 games.

Zombimode
2013-08-23, 04:28 AM
I was wondering if there are any class-based games that don't have the stupid math of AD&D or the massive rules of d20 games.

Actually, the math in AD&D is solid. Much better then in 3.5 for instance. But you probably mean not the actual math but the representation.

Rakaydos
2013-08-23, 04:39 AM
The new Fantasy Flight Star Wars game could qualify.

While it does have a dice pool, instead of counting up numbers, the dice just have simbols that tell you whethr they count as sucesses, fails... or something unexpected. (the last is the true strength of the system, but it's difficult to explain.)

Daedroth
2013-08-23, 04:39 AM
What about Dark Heresy or Anima?

Morty
2013-08-23, 04:44 AM
Warhammer Fantasy RPG uses a career system that is somewhat similar to classes. Dark Heresy, mentioned in the post above mine, also uses one, but it is somewhat different - closer to D&D-style classes.

Earthdawn also uses a class system of sorts, from what I've heard.

Rondodu
2013-08-23, 04:49 AM
Actually, I realized that I hate every single RPG that is out there.I know, right? I’d write mine, but it would probably be even worse.


However, all the classless RPGs are doing such nonsense like dice pools, counting the number of dice that roll a 4-6, getting action points to spend on special moves, and so on.That is a completely false assumption. The games I’ve played the most are mostly to completely class- and dice-pool-less.

Black Jester
2013-08-23, 05:05 AM
Actually, I realized that I hate every single RPG that is out there.

I was wondering if there are any class-based games that don't have the stupid math of AD&D or the massive rules of d20 games.

Why do you want classes in your game anyway?

And, well, you are from Germany, so I'll assume you know German... have a look at Dungeonslayers (you can get the pdf for free on their homepage, if I remember correctly). It is relatively simple, class-based and supposedly quite accessible. Or Midgard, which isn't exactly simple but has one of the best RPG settings currently available.

Earthwalker
2013-08-23, 07:07 AM
Earthdawn has classes.

In fact they have classes as an in game concept, asking someone if they are a warrior means have they part of the warrior discipline (class) you even spend time in character talking about how your a swordsmaster of the forth circle.

danatblair
2013-08-23, 07:45 AM
Earthdawn, Rogue trader, and Palladium have either classes or jobs that function as classes.

I might suggest Earthdawn or Rogue trader. I have played both of those and they were pretty cool. Palladium is more problematic. If you don't like the math of D and D, then I would not suggest it.

Earthdawn has mutliclassing, though the rules vary based on edition. Rogue trader has something akin to prestige classes. Palladium - depending on the game- might have occasional multiclassing (hardware characters can do it, but that is more like one class taking 2 subclasses).

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-08-23, 08:37 AM
Apocalypse World and its descendants (Dungeon World, Monsterhearts, Monster of the Week, maybe a few I'm forgetting) are strictly class-based, and each class is very tied into a specific genre niche. They get distinctive "moves" that no other class gets access to--which is important, because moves are the basic actions that you use to react to a situation.

Without a specific move for a situation, you have to fall back on one of the more general moves, which are somewhat less effective.

hymer
2013-08-23, 09:14 AM
Cyberpunk 2020 have 'roles' that dictate which skills you have basic access to improve, and to grant you special skills which can only be gained from a specific role. It seems common to forego all that, however, and just play it classless.

Jay R
2013-08-23, 10:10 AM
Flashing Blades has Backgrounds, which determine the skills you can learn. A starting character is a Rogue, Soldier, Gentleman, or Noble. It's role-playing in the France of the Musketeers and Richelieu. But good luck finding a copy.

erikun
2013-08-23, 10:32 AM
Iron Kingdoms has Careers, which behave a lot like Classes in D&D. You choose two careers when you create your character, and get all the skills/equipment from each. As you gain XP, you increase in levels and improve in stats and career skills. This sounds a lot like what you're looking for.


Several other point-based games have career paths or skill groups which kind of operate similar to classes, in that you can increase the group directly and gain the benefit of increased skills in everything in the group. Iron Claw does this with careers, which increase a set of 4-5 skills, and HeroQuest has skill groups, which cost more to improve but raise all the skills under the group.

Dimers
2013-08-23, 10:40 AM
World of Darkness is effectively class-based, though multiclassing is less painful and restrictive than in some editions of D&D. Your initial special abilities are limited outright by (e.g.) which bloodline of vampire you are, and the differences between (e.g. again) vampire and werewolf are even stronger. Then in nWoD, the trend continues by making your in-class special abilities cheaper to improve than cross-class. IIRC oWoD relied on fluff and in-game consequences to restrict cross-classing.

danatblair
2013-08-23, 10:52 AM
World of Darkness is effectively class-based, though multiclassing is less painful and restrictive than in some editions of D&D. Your initial special abilities are limited outright by (e.g.) which bloodline of vampire you are, and the differences between (e.g. again) vampire and werewolf are even stronger. Then in nWoD, the trend continues by making your in-class special abilities cheaper to improve than cross-class. IIRC oWoD relied on fluff and in-game consequences to restrict cross-classing.

Been ages since I played, but I believe you are correct. Trading magic schtick between clans was verboten and the penalty was death. However, nothing that says you have to announce to the world you are multi-classing. Better to lay low, and only use the abilities when you can get away with it.

I vaguely recall that in a camrilla game (I went to 2 sessions a decade ago) there were two high level players that were trading disciplines with each other. It any other person found out in character, both were dead. All play consequences and nothing mechanical.

Morty
2013-08-23, 11:22 AM
World of Darkness is effectively class-based, though multiclassing is less painful and restrictive than in some editions of D&D. Your initial special abilities are limited outright by (e.g.) which bloodline of vampire you are, and the differences between (e.g. again) vampire and werewolf are even stronger. Then in nWoD, the trend continues by making your in-class special abilities cheaper to improve than cross-class. IIRC oWoD relied on fluff and in-game consequences to restrict cross-classing.

Yeah, well, not really. No WoD element, new or old, can be called a class. Supernatural species, like vampires and mages, are games in their own right. Crossover between them is entirely optional. Sub-divisions within splats, like vampire clans or mage paths do define some of your traits, but to a far smaller degree than a class in any system that uses them.

Joe the Rat
2013-08-23, 11:35 AM
oWoD vampire wasn't class-based. it was loosely race based (via bloodlines).

Werewolf was closer to class based. And you had five Auspices. (or three or four or EIGHT if you got into other changers). It was a good gateway game to bring over your friends who were playing AD&D2nd.

Palladium is, but there's a lot of flex for some classes.

L5R is class-based and uses dice pools.

RoleMaster is class based, and uses tables. LOTS of tables. Dice might also be involved :smallwink:.

Occupation/Career Backstories: do those count? Was Traveler the spiritual precursor to 3.5?

I think where we start seeing classes everywhere is because even in freeform creation games, you are still going to see some degree of specialization, or typical build types. The only reason they aren't classes is because they are not hard-coded into the game as such (but the game should assume specialists of said type exist).

hamlet
2013-08-23, 11:38 AM
Arduin, in all of its iterations, had classes, and a lot of breadth, too.

danatblair
2013-08-23, 11:53 AM
In WoD, you select a race. That race determines how you character develops and gives you very limited options for advancement.

It's like earthdawn, but with less abilities per tier of advancement.

It goes back to ... what is a class? Palladium fantasy, and other palladium games, use race as a class. Some TSR products use race as a class. Is there some reason, aside from not wanting to call it that out of preference, that your clan does not act like a class a pre-determium and channel your advancement in a given direction?

Just cause it is not called a class does not prevent it from acting like a class.

Stubbazubba
2013-08-23, 11:58 AM
The One Ring has Cultures, which are essentially classes, and within each Culture there are sub-specialties, but their base stats are all within a certain range from each other. That's actually a really well-done game, on a lot of fronts. So much so that I started working on a generic fantasy knock-off, where the Cultures were replaced with Classes. Anyways, it's definitely worth checking out.

LibraryOgre
2013-08-23, 12:11 PM
Yeah, well, not really. No WoD element, new or old, can be called a class. Supernatural species, like vampires and mages, are games in their own right. Crossover between them is entirely optional. Sub-divisions within splats, like vampire clans or mage paths do define some of your traits, but to a far smaller degree than a class in any system that uses them.

I disagree with you, there. While the classes weren't restrictive, they were certainly there, and as more than a cosmetic issue.

Vampire? "I'm playing a Gangrel. While this certainly informs other people's prejudices about me, and likely colors the character concept I have in mind, it also poses real difficulties in learning certain magical powers."

Werewolf was even worse. "I am a Metis Glass Walker Theurge. That defines my magical powers, my role in werewolf society, and the prejudices everyone has about me. I can TRY to fight being any part of that... but I might as well be playing a fighter taking cross-class skills to be a rogue, since I'm going to be way behind."

It might not have been the standard fighter/mage/thief range, but there was definitely a lot of class-rules in oWoD.

Doug Lampert
2013-08-23, 12:30 PM
I disagree with you, there. While the classes weren't restrictive, they were certainly there, and as more than a cosmetic issue.

They are, IIRC, more restrictive than most Rolemaster classes, and no one claims that Rolemaster isn't class based.

Clans and the like in WoD perform the same basic function of channeling a character into a specialty or archetype as D&D classes.

I think you can make a BETTER argument that D&D third edition is not classed based than the argument about WoD. D&D third edition is point based (with about a dozen pools of non-interchangeable points), it's just that most important points come in big chunks called "levels" rather than points and that you have only a few hundred choices for what to spend these points on and that the items purchased come in paths with lower path elements required first.

In D&D third there's really no choice I make at start which forever changes my later development costs and possibilities in anything like the way a clan choice channels later choices in WoD or class choice did in prior D&D editions or a class in SPI's Dragonquest or in Rolemaster or MERP changes later costs and possibilities.

Black Jester
2013-08-23, 12:44 PM
Yeah, well, not really. No WoD element, new or old, can be called a class. Supernatural species, like vampires and mages, are games in their own right. Crossover between them is entirely optional. Sub-divisions within splats, like vampire clans or mage paths do define some of your traits, but to a far smaller degree than a class in any system that uses them.

The auspices in Werewolf are pretty much Classes in a very social sense: They define the role of the character within the PC pack, they define the social role of the character and they offer a basic orientation off what might be relevant (or at least expected) from the character. That mostly fulfills the positive aspects of a class. The system lacks most of the restrictions of a class system, though.

Big Fau
2013-08-23, 02:39 PM
What about Dark Heresy or Anima?

Have you ever seen the character sheet for Anima? (http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1375/33/1375330011708.jpg) I've seen tax forms that are less cluttered...

Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40K's various RPGs, and Warhammer Quest are all class-based.

Malfunctioned
2013-08-23, 03:47 PM
Have you ever seen the character sheet for Anima? (http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1375/33/1375330011708.jpg) I've seen tax forms that are less cluttered...

Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40K's various RPGs, and Warhammer Quest are all class-based.

The character sheets from Anima aren't as bad as they appear, most characters would only use one or two sheets from it and those that would dip into everything would be pretty inefficient to say the least.

Also, the classes in Anima are a bit of an odd case, everything can be accessed by every character, regardless of class, however they do determine how hard it is for a character develop skill in a certain area, so a Warrior or Weaponmaster is gonna get a lot more bang for their buck in Attack or Wear Armor than a Summoner or Mentalist.

Lorsa
2013-08-24, 10:30 AM
There are plenty of swedish roleplaying games that have classes (or professions as they often call them). If you're looking for classless systems without dice pools like WoD or Burning Wheel, then you have for example Ars Magica or the Cortex system.

Eonas
2013-08-24, 11:39 AM
Try SenZar.

The Rose Dragon
2013-08-24, 01:07 PM
Try SenZar.

...you monster.

BWR
2013-08-24, 04:29 PM
Legend of the 5 Rings/Legend of the Burning Sands (and I believe 7th Sea) have a compromise system between skill based and class based. You can buy skills freely, but major mechanical considerations are handled by classes.

You could for instance make a 'fighter' that has only one point in any combat skill, yet have the equivalent of epic level fighting abilities.
You can make a 'fighter' that's good at sneaking, but not as good as someone with a 'rogue' class usually is. You can make a 'talky person class' who can fight and sneak and suck at talking.

Arbane
2013-08-24, 07:10 PM
Have you ever seen the character sheet for Anima? (http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1375/33/1375330011708.jpg) I've seen tax forms that are less cluttered...

That's not Anima, though. Eoris is a different game. (And a really odd one.)

IronFist
2013-08-24, 08:57 PM
I don't see the problem with action points or dice pools. Counting is easier than adding, isn't it?
How about using diceless systems? Amber Diceless seems to be loved enough and there is Active Exploits as well.

Rhynn
2013-08-25, 04:56 PM
Some of these will have been mentioned. I'm going to ignore career-path or background systems: IMO, "classes" must give you exclusive abilities or very strongly inform/limit abilities, and be either impossible/difficult to get into after character creation, or (more or less) impossible to get rid of (3.5 style).


Alternity: pretty basic (A)D&D-style classes with skill system.
Buck Rogers XXVC: very AD&D-style.
Cyberpunk 2020 and 203X (but not 2013): in 2020 the various roles have unique skills (Solos get Combat Sense, etc.), and in 203X your type of cybernetics is determined by your neotribe.
The Dark Eye: classes inform your starting abilities a good bit.
Dragon Age: pretty standard, D&D-style.
Dragon Warriors: classes get specific abilities, fairly D&D-style. Also has levels.
Fabled Lands.
Fading Suns (very loose): you're either Noble, Guild, Church, or Alien, but within those limitations, you can have enough variety that you could have any kind of party with all of them sharing a background.
HackMaster: like AD&D.
Legend of Five Rings (loose): you're either shugenja or bushi (or monk, or ninja, etc.), and your school determines your abilities (and, with some exception, your clan determines your school). You can advance into other schools. Also has levels.
Lord of the Rings: your class determines what skills and traits you can buy with experience.
One Ring: Adventures Beyond the Edge of the Wild: your calling gives you a unique trait, informs your skill selection, and determines your Shadow Weakness (greed, curiosity, wrath, etc.).
Pendragon (loose or inconsequential): everyone's a knight by default, but there's other types of characters (magicians and ladies, mainly).
Rolemaster and MERP (and Spacemaster and Cyberspace): your class determines your skill advancement costs (including whether you can buy 2 ranks or 1 rank per level), and whether you can use magic and what spell lists you get. Also has levels.
Shadowrun (very loose): either you have Essence at the start of play or not, and if you do, either you're an Adept or you're not.
Stars Without Number: technically a OSR D&D retroclone, albeit a scifi one, with OD&D-style loose classes.
Traveller and MegaTraveller (very loose): your background (Army, Marines, Navy, Scouts, etc.) determines your skills, but there's enormous overlap. You never advance very much at all in skills and abilities in play.
Tunnels & Trolls.
Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay (Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade, Only War): your class determines what abilities you can buy at what price. Also has levels.
Warrior, Rogue & Mage: natch.
World of Darkness: vampire, werewolf, mage, etc. Within a sub-game, there's other variations (vampire clans, etc.) that determine what specific abilities you can get. There's still a lot of room to specialize in what you want, but a Brujah will probably make a better bruiser than a Tremere. Exalted is similar, AFAIK.


That's everything I can think of off-hand. There's bunches more, but I can't say much about most of those.

Obviously, everything D&D, d20, OGL, and OSR-based was ignored (except SWN, which may not jump at people as being OSR).