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View Full Version : Did Tarquin ever really care about the gate?



pendell
2013-08-23, 07:46 AM
So I'm reviewing the current book, based on what we know now. And now some of Tarquin's actions and motivations become clear.

He did not know, at first, any more about the story than a first time reader did, other than his son was in it. He still has some misconceptions, as he believes Elan is the leader of the OOTS.

He didn't find the full story until Nale was captured and interrogated.

As of 913, it appears that Tarquin has already considered Nale's plan and dismissed it. The plan has "too many moving parts". From their initial discussion, Tarquin is already planning to destroy the gate himself. He doesn't need that power to accomplish its goals, and leaving it around for a scenery-chewing villain to destroy the world isn't a great idea. The gate is a net minus to him, so logically his choice should be to destroy it.

So why bring in an entire second party to interfere with Elan's? Why go to the pyramid yourself when the heroes are already going to do pretty much what you intended to do anyway?

That brings us down to Tarquin's true hidden agenda, an agenda hidden from everyone else, even from the members of his own party:

For Nale .

Tarquin's true hidden purpose in these events is to bring about the forgiveness of Nale and his re-integration into Team Tarquin as a player.

And so to do this, he comes up with a reason as to why TT has to seize the gate. Because Nale alone has the details they need for this purpose, this gives him a reason to keep Nale alive. So he sends Nale out with orders to secure the gate. If Nale succeeds and plays well, Tarquin has business reasons to keep Nale alive and to get TT to call off the Vendetta. Business before pleasure. Nale's success on top of his indispensable knowledge means he is an asset worth keeping around, from the perspective of the rest of TT.

Which tells us that the rest of TT is somewhere along the lawful evil/neutral evil/lawful neutral axis.. A chaotic evil character such as Belkar couldn't survive very long in such a framework, and a character of any good alignment would not be a part of a scheme to build an empire with thousands of human sacrifices a day. But that's an aside.

So ultimately Tarquin *doesn't* care about the gate at all. The only thing he could get from this that he didn't actually get was the opportunity to study it firsthand, but that's strictly bonus. The real important thing, the thing that's brought him to move these machinations in the first place , is to save his son.

Had Nale succeeded in capturing the Gate, Tarquin would have kept it intact only so long as it gave his son a reason to be indispensable. Once his son was accepted on his own terms, the gate could be eliminated.

This, then, is the hidden machinations, the plan within a plan within a plan. The Japanese used to say that a man should have three hearts: One he shows to the world, one he shows to his friends, and one he shows only to himself. This, then, is the heart of Tarquin: What he shows the world is that he is the bloodthirsty general ruling an evil empire. What he shows his friends is the scheming macchiavellian who puts business before pleasure. But what he shows himself -- what he finally shows to Nale in this last strip -- is a man who deeply, deeply loves his sons and will do anything for them.

A man who is willing to move the entire EOB army into the middle of worthless desert for one reason, and one reason only: To save his son.

A man who took up his axe again and went into battle as he has not done in years for one, and only one reason: To better ensure his son's success, and his re-acceptance back into Team Tarquin.

And yet all of his machinations are brought low by a fatal flaw: Nale. From the viewpoint of Team Tarquin, Nale is simply not salvageable. Not only has he failed in the objective, not only has he lost the entire rest of the team, he's indulged in a bit of fratricide and killed off one of their truly useful members, one who was a personal friend to many of them.

And from the moment the army marches on panel, Nale makes it worse. He opens his mouth when he should have kept it shut, forces the psionic to remove any possible doubt as to his actions, then boasts about it. Then slaps away any offer of assistance from the ONE man left in the world who can and will help him.

If this were a job interview, this would be a point where the interviewee not only moons all the interviewers but takes pains to show youtube videos of the person who sponsored him to the interview in the first place doing terrible things with a hamster.

So when Tarquin kills Nale, it's not just killing Nale. It's also an admission of defeat : In the inner game on which Tarquin was willing to bet the lives of his friends and even his own life (by directly stepping into the fray) , Tarquin has lost. Completely. He's failed to bring about his sons' forgiveness. He's failed as a father. Failed in every conceivable way that matters, to a man.

Tarquin never cared about the gate save as a stepping stone in his Macchiavellian plan to end the feud between Team Tarquin and his own family. That was what he cared about. So when he stabbed Nale, for the first time in strip he has admitted defeat, and in many ways lost everything he ever cared for.

...

Or at least half of it. He still has his OTHER son. And if I were Elan, I would get just as far away from him as I could , as fast as I could.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

F.Harr
2013-08-23, 08:52 AM
I agree. Tarquin loves his sons. That that it's necessarily a HEALTHY love, but it's there. Tarquin will manipulate Elan into working for him, given half a chance. But it would be to integrate Elan into the team. Not what Elan wants, but Elan's a little slow.

gerryq
2013-08-23, 09:24 AM
Tarquin was so dismissive of the "purple...holey... thing" that I suspect he intends to take a good look at it.

Of course, this could result in a left of field ending for Tarquin - what if he brings his army in the gate and finds something so dangerous it destroys him?

Deliverance
2013-08-23, 10:13 AM
I have serious misgivings about accepting any theory of Tarquin's motivations for his actions that is based on his own explanations for his actions after he has seen how they panned out.

The man is a consummate opportunist, who is perfectly willing to shade the truth so it benefits him, who has no qualms about claiming that something he never planned was his plan all along if it will help him, who has a long history of being excellent at cutting losses rather than dwelling on defeats, and who is quick of mind.

Whether it divorcing his wife on the grounds of incompatible alignment, his initial attempt at conquest going terribly wrong, his death-match in the arena not going according to plan, not getting hold of the gate, or reacting to Malack's death, remind yourself that this is a mind that sees opportunities everywhere and does not let the past hinder his actions.

That does not mean that I disregard his comments to Nale in #913 entirely; If nothing else, the sigh at the end seems to indicate that Tarquin for once allows emotions to show for clear non-manipulative reasons - but I do not see any particular reason for why we, the readers, should assume that this time Tarquin is telling the unvarnished truth about his intentions.

Rather, than, say, trying to manipulate Nale into tacitly accepting his authority.... to steal another Tarquin quote.

sihnfahl
2013-08-23, 10:27 AM
Tarquin was so dismissive of the "purple...holey... thing" that I suspect he intends to take a good look at it.
Wouldn't you? He has little to no information about what it is.

He just knows it is where a 'gate' was. A gate to where? Why did Nale consider control of the gate important?

Nemeean_lion
2013-08-23, 12:02 PM
Frankly, I don't see any other reason for Tarquin to have done what he has done except what he's said in this strip.

You don't want to believe Tarquin because of his shady past? Fine. But then what other possible reason could he have had? None of the other reasons made any sense whatsoever. His whole plan was about keeping a low profile. Why would he suddenly give that up now?

He clearly had no information about the gate except for what Nale told him. And it was pretty easy to tell that Nale couldn't in fact obtain that ritual. It was also obvious that Nale didn't even know what the ritual was about, so it might as well have been something he couldn't accomplish(which it was in fact, I don't think they have an arcane or divine caster strong enough to cast it, and let's not even mention the fact that the ritual only moves the gate).

Just as Elan is naive about everything, Tarquin is naive about his sons. He completely ignores Elan's childish stupidity(He thanks Elan for acting like a child so that Tarquin could have a taste of all the years he has lost), and he is totally oblivious to Nale's hostility and outright hatred towards him.

You can see it from his words "Are you even listening? I did this for you.. To give my son a second chance." . Even after he finds out he killed Malack, he still tries to give him that second chance. The moment he finally gets it is after Nale's "I want NOTHING" speech, hence that heartfelt sigh.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I think this might finally be the moment when Tarquin admits his failure. Malack died because of his refusal to see Nale for what he really was. Too bad I don't have any crowns left or I would have bet this on the demon roaches thread.

Mike Havran
2013-08-23, 12:37 PM
I agree with the analysis. Tarquin loved and cared about Nale, but he never understood him. He had no idea that Nale's animosity had gone so far. When he realized that, there was only one way to go - accept his failure and the resulting losses and make sure they won't increase.

Kaithar
2013-08-23, 01:01 PM
I don't agree, or at least not entirely. I agree his primary motive was to give Nale a success and bring into TT, however I am less sure that he didn't care about the gate at all.
The way I see it, he saw the gate as a long shot. He certainly couldn't use Nales plan but would have liked to capture and study it to see if there was some way for him to use it. Whilst he saw the prospect of him being able to use the gate in some way as unlikely, leading to him destroying the gate. If the opportunity arose for him to study it with no significant risk he would leap at the opportunity.
Since the gate was destroyed before he could capture it he came to the conlusion of: "Oh well, it was unlikely I could use it anyway" and gives up on it

Amphiox
2013-08-23, 01:22 PM
Ironically, the same fault he panned Nale's planning for, "too many moving parts", wherein the problem being that these "moving parts" having tendencies to move in ways you cannot anticipate or plan, is ultimately the same fault that brought down his own.

Too many moving parts. Those parts being Nale himself and all the aspects of his person and character that Tarquin did not realize that he did not properly understand.

Oscredwin
2013-08-23, 01:34 PM
Frankly, I don't see any other reason for Tarquin to have done what he has done except what he's said in this strip.

You don't want to believe Tarquin because of his shady past? Fine. But then what other possible reason could he have had?

He could have studied the gate for a bit and try to see if there was a way that a 12th level cleric, a 17+ level psion, and whatever other resources he has access to can use the Gate to his advantage. I assume he still intends to do that with the Rift (assuming he isn't defeated here).

StreamOfTheSky
2013-08-25, 09:41 AM
I agree completely with the OP, very good analysis.

That said, he clearly *also* enjoyed hamming it up as "Thog" and seeing his competent son and his friends in battle first hand, along with the rush of fighting for him personally. Nale was the primary reason he went out to the desert, but he certainly had some lesser reasons to want to do it. :smallsmile:

Deliverance
2013-08-26, 11:38 AM
Frankly, I don't see any other reason for Tarquin to have done what he has done except what he's said in this strip.

Would you care to reevaluate this in light of #914, this time thinking of a character who is characterized primarily by his obsession with narrative, egocentrism, and opportunism? :D



You don't want to believe Tarquin because of his shady past?

Not at all. I didn't say I disbelieved him because of his shady past, I merely said that due to his consistent behaviour as character in manipulating everybody around him and taking advantage of opportunities as they arise, up to and including lying when it suits his purposes, we, as readers, have no reasons whatsoever to believe that what Tarquin states at any given time is, in fact, the truth - and not whatever seems opportune for him to say at that time to advance his goals, which may or may not be the truth and, even if the truth, may not be the whole truth.



Fine. But then what other possible reason could he have had? None of the other reasons made any sense whatsoever. His whole plan was about keeping a low profile. Why would he suddenly give that up now?

He is not giving up his low profile now. The linear guild knew his secret, the order knew his secret, and his specially trained division knew his secret. As far as everybody else is concerned, the general probably just took a division out on maneuvers.

Look, if you are incapable of thinking like an opportunistic bastard, kudos to you, but I took the time to write down a thought stream that could have come from the Tarquin we've all come to know and "love" up to and including #913. This is the stone-cold Tarquin, but what must be realized is that even the highly caring Tarquin that some have hypothesized could very well have reasoned the same way. I am not claiming that this is how the Giant sees his character, though I cannot dismiss it either.

I would like to believe the character capable of greater love than the minimum needed to explain his actions in all the scenes we have seen, but that may just be because I consider him an intriguing character, which makes me seek redeeming characteristics in what would otherwise be a complete monster.


The following is merely how somebody who is opportunistic, an evil son of a bitch, a sucker for the narrative, and whose universe is firmly self-centered, can think:


"I am Tarquin and I am awesome. I understand how narratives work and the world is my stage. My life revolves around doing things that I find awesome while I live, and which will make me an example to follow after my death.

The notion of good and evil is a crutch for those who do not understand how the world works. I do things because I can and will it, not because it is "right" or "wrong". There is no "good" or "evil", there is doing things properly or not. I will go to great lengths for that extra laugh or that dramatic setup that makes best narrative sense, because the universe runs on stories.... Well, it should. The fact that bards don't run it is a constant wonder to me.

I am a villain because that is the best way to achieve my goals, and I revel in it.

I am capable of friendship and I do have emotions; I just do not allow my emotions to interfere with business, since that would be unprofessional. By no coincidence at all, all my friends are valuable assets in their own right, who contribute to achieving my life's goal of being the unique and unequaled being, the gift to the world, who is the amazing Tarquin.

I also have two sons, Elan and Nale, in whom I see much of myself. Both are leaders of high-level adventuring parties, and where Nale has much of my ambition (though not as awesome or well-practiced as myself, of course), Elan has much of my understanding of the importance of narrative conventions (though not as awesome as myself, of course, since where would heroes be without great antagonists?). I care about my sons - some might consider it a bit narcissistic, but I really do care, honestly. I even love them.

They also happen to be valuable assets in their own right. Nale would be an excellent aid in my scheme to rule as much of the western continent I can get my hands if he wasn't so stubborn and if it wasn't for the unresolved conflict between him and my friends, in particularly with my best friend Malack. Elan has the greater potential of setting up an awesome father vs. son narrative that will catapult my legend to greater heights. And, of course, he can be used to foil other villains.

My son Elan has rushed out on an important quest, which is fine with me; I try to help him as much as I can, because that is the sort of good father I am. (Really, I am an awesome father.) I make sure his adventuring party joins him and I offer him aid. I also make sure to track him so I can get in on the business if I sport a need; After all, he might be on to something good, and I am always on the lookout for opportunities. Also, should he fail, I will be able to discern where it happened, which is important because anything that can defeat a son of mine must be powerful indeed, and I would not want something like that around in my empire outside my control. Besides, this makes for a great story, so it is great in so many different ways.

My son Nale tells me what he thinks it is all about, a Gate to something powerful, and has a complicated and buffonish plan to take advantage of it. He still doesn't understand the power of narrative, despite all my training, but that does not mean that the Gate might not be worth something in the right hands – my hands. Of course, it might not, and I would definitely prefer not to have something like that around if I cannot control it myself, but that is a worry for the future, for I see a splendid opportunity here!

I will let Nale "lead" me and Malack to the gate, which will test his leadership. It will also give me an opportunity to practice my fighting skills against worthy opponents, something that happens all too rarely. And I get to fight in disguise, which is moderately awesome in its own right, and sets up the whole "who is the masked man?" dynamic. Does it get any better than that? YES! It is also narratively perfect, as it pits my two sons against each other – who will win and who will lose? It is exquisite! I will make sure to even odds out to keep them matched against each other as casualties take their toll and they get closer to their goal.

By having Malack and Nale working together I also give them every opportunity to resolve that annoying personal dispute that interferes with business once and for all, either by buring the grievance or by burying one of the two. I would prefer both my friend and my beloved son to survive, of course, but this conflict between assets is bad for business.

Elan may defeat Nale making his own story greater and, ultimately, making mine greater yet whether he defeats me or not. Nale may defeat Elan and show leadership, which will surely enable me to reinstate him as an active asset in the going concern that is my awesome life and my wonderful tyranny. Malack and Nale may reconcile, they may not, and absolutely worst case Malack may kill Nale, though he probably won't since I'll make sure to remind him to concentrate on business, but if he does, that too resolves a problem even if it does so in a suboptimal manner.

I make sure to issue orders to assemble my special division and call in Laurin such that, once the whole mess has been resolved one way or another, I can move in and secure victory on my terms.

Whomever wins the race for the gate, whatever happens to the gate, however the annoying rift between Malack and Nale is resolved, I win.

And I get to have an awesome time doing it!"


----- In this particular example of a thought stream of an egomaniac who sees the world in terms of manipulating it such that all outcomes leads to his victory (by his own ideas of what constitutes victory, which are focused on himself, not on others) rather than having defeat as an option, the only possibility Tarquin had not considered seriously was that Nale might kill Malack. It is easily amended to include that possibility as a win should one so desire (it also resolves the ongoing dispute and for Nale to be able to defeat Malack means he may be a bigger asset than previously considered.)

hamishspence
2013-08-26, 11:42 AM
That seems like a very plausible Tarquin thought-stream.