afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread III!

[afroakuma]

Alright, so, the last thread got horribly derailed due to thesis work and general graduation and post-graduation nonsense on my part, but I am happy to report that I'm all done with that sort of thing, which means answers to questions can resume!

As the backlog on the previous thread got labyrinthine rather quickly, I figured I'd accept defeat and start over from scratch. So, blank slate, here to receive questions as always.

Basic background stuff that might be of use to newcomers:

Basic Rules

• We'll be going with canonical information wherever possible, wherein this refers to all sources from 3.5 and prior. 4E and beyond are irrelevant to me where this thread is concerned.

• I'll conjecture on demand and supply tidbits from my own extensive work on the Planes where relevant, but these will always be pointed out.

• 99% of the time, I'm not interested in breaking down sources. That requires actual digging about more often than not, and it's a very big library that I'm drawing from. If you really feel the need to contest something, try to be nice about it; I don't like having to plunge into the boxes to find the right book or magazine unless I'm not sure of something.

• I assume all or nearly all published settings to be connected in the same multiverse; this means both Spelljammer and Planescape, as well as worlds that try to remain separate such as Athas and Eberron, are all part of the same ball of wax as far as I'm concerned.

Core Concepts

• The planes as will be most commonly acknowledged in this thread include: the Material Plane; the Ethereal, Astral and Shadow Planes; the Positive and Negative Energy Planes; the Elemental Planes of Air, Earth, Fire and Water; the Para-Elemental Planes of Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke; the Quasi-Elemental Planes of Ash, Dust, Lightning, Minerals, Radiance, Salt, Steam and Vacuum; the seventeen major Outer Planes; and the Far Realm. Other planes that may be mentioned with some degree of frequency but lie within the realm of speculation are the Ordial Plane, the Planes of Cordance, the Semi-Elemental Planes and any of those not already named that are located in the 3.X Manual of the Planes, as well as demiplanes.

• The term exemplar or exemplar race may be used a great deal in this thread. These terms refer to the major entities of pure alignment that reside on the Outer Planes: archons, guardinals, eladrins, slaad, tanar'ri, yugoloths, baatezu, modrons and rilmani.

• When discussing worlds of the Material Plane, I often turn to referencing their spatial location on a star chart made for Spelljammer. As there is no official chart to consult, I work off of an extensively detailed and thoroughly researched fanmade chart by Nerik (http://nerik.orpheusweb.co.uk/files/Spelljammer/Flow_map_01-12-12.pdf) (warning: huge). This chart represents the Arcane Inner Flow quadrant of the primary "galaxy" of Spelljammer. This "galaxy" is known as arcane space after the beings that ruthlessly control its spelljamming helm supply and the secret of the lanes that connect the heart of the region to its border, known as the Arcane Outer Flow or AOF. If I note something as being on or near to the AOF, it represents a significant distance from the center of arcane space and from the most well-known worlds in this quadrant (Oerth, Krynn and Toril).

[Fax Celestis]

What's the difference between a paraelemental plane, a demielemental plane, and a quasielemental plane, and do the inhabitants of each differ?

[afroakuma]

Heyo Fax! :smallsmile:


What's the difference between a paraelemental plane, a demielemental plane, and a quasielemental plane, and do the inhabitants of each differ?

Para-Elemental Planes exist at the junction of two Elemental Planes. Quasi-Elemental Planes exist where an Elemental Plane meets an Energy Plane (Positive or Negative). Semi-Elemental Planes are the logical union of these two concepts, the realms where a Para-Elemental Plane meets an Energy Plane.

The denizens of the various N-Elemental Planes are many and varied; the chief residents of the Para-Elemental Planes are the para-elementals themselves, like their cousins the elementals in most respects. Likewise, the most commonly known creatures from the Quasi-Elemental Planes (apart from mephits) are the quasi-elementals, which tend to be rather more exotic than their kin; many also have surprising vulnerabilities that make it difficult for them to survive apart from their native realms. Semi-elementals have not been documented, though in the reports exploring those obscure planes, various creatures both animalistic and sentient were encountered and described.

Generally, the Para-Elemental inhabitants are more relatable than those of the Quasi-Elemental or Semi-Elemental Planes. Compare the thoqqua of the Plane of Magma to the scile of the Plane of Radiance.

[Claudius Maximus]

What exactly are the requirements of a fiendish pact? I seem to remember some book in 3.5 talking about a king selling the souls of all his subjects, but I also seem to recall reading elsewhere that one can only sell their soul of one's own free will, and something like magical compulsion and presumably the actions of other mortals you've never met wouldn't cut it. If anything other than a completely free choice will suffice, where is the line drawn?

[afroakuma]

What exactly are the requirements of a fiendish pact? I seem to remember some book in 3.5 talking about a king selling the souls of all his subjects, but I also seem to recall reading elsewhere that one can only sell their soul of one's own free will, and something like magical compulsion and presumably the actions of other mortals you've never met wouldn't cut it. If anything other than a completely free choice will suffice, where is the line drawn?

I don't follow. Could you clarify?

[AuraTwilight]

Everyone knows that kings own their subjects in every literal sense.

[afroakuma]

Any other questions while I wait on that?

[Urpriest]

Gods are barred from Sigil. What happens when someone ascends to godhood while in Sigil? If you're familiar with Downer, in particular, could the final battle from that comic ever happen?

[afroakuma]

Gods are barred from Sigil. What happens when someone ascends to godhood while in Sigil?

The Lady of Pain detects you and ejects you. If she can find you, you're out. The very property of becoming a power links you to something, providing a rail she can run you out of town on.

If she can't find you, and there's only one way that can happen, she'll eject you anyway; it just won't be as quick. You've got ~1-4 hours to enjoy your minor victory, throughout which the pressure of the Lady's wrath intensifies around you. By the end of that time, the pressure has become a soul-wracking pain that utterly consumes all other thoughts but flight from the city. Note that the amount of time doesn't correlate to your power level, in defiance of all expectations. No power who has ascended while in Sigil has lasted more than four hours.

[Jurai]

A: Just why does the Lady of Pain hate gods?
B: Secondly, did Spelljammer ever go into just what Phlogiston did aside from explode if you lit it on fire?

[AuraTwilight]

A: Just why does the Lady of Pain hate gods?
B: Secondly, did Spelljammer ever go into just what Phlogiston did aside from explode if you lit it on fire?

A. The Lady was never too keen on the gods, apparently because whoever rules Sigil rules the Multiverse, and she insists on making sure no one can claim it. Things sort of escalated when Aoskar, God of Portals, tried to claim the Lady was one of his avatars, and even convinced one of her Dabus to worship him. As soon as that happened, she destroyed him instantly and instated the "No Gods in Sigil rule". The ruins of Aoskar's temple still remain as a warning.

B. If a living being is caught in the Phlogiston, they go into suspended animation until found, iirc.

[kkplx]

I hope I'm not bringing mechanics into a purely lore thread

I've tried to find a way to get access to planes with reliably accelerated time in 3.5, and there appears to be a distinct lack of said sources - are there any planes known to have significantly accelerated time (from our perspective) and if yes, how could a PC in a 3.5 game get access to them? (preferably without upsetting someone that resides there)

[AuraTwilight]

What do you mean by 'get access'? Any sort of Plane Shift spell should be able to take you to a plane if you know about it, earnestly speaking.

[kkplx]

What do you mean by 'get access'? Any sort of Plane Shift spell should be able to take you to a plane if you know about it, earnestly speaking.

I've not been able to find such a plane, and therefore a character can hardly planeshift there, due to neither knowing the plane nor having the appropriate "key".

[Bronk]

Has there ever been an official way to reconcile planescape and spelljammer?

We have the planes connecting many Prime Material worlds together (through the plane of shadow in 3.5), but spelljammer, which is still alluded to in 3.5, has it's own rules of getting between Prime Material Worlds. There have been novels (like Tymora's Luck) based in previous editions where the characters got around through both planar travel and spelljamming. Has there ever been a source that wrapped these all up, or at least gave a reason for using one method over another?

[LOTRfan]

1) I seem to be able to vaguely recall a race of aquatic humanoids that live in the ocean that surrounds Mount Celestia. Would you happen to know their name, and where I can find more information on them?

2) I know that before 3.X, dragons were more or less tied to the Material Plane, and dragons out in the greater multiverse were supposed to be rare. How do you personally feel about that change with the introduction of planar dragons?

3) Speaking of things being attached to the Material Plane, I've always sort of got the notion that Fey are supposed to be deeply connected to the Material Plane (similar, but obviously not identical, to the way Outsiders are connected to their planes). Is this view canon? I'm asking because I have found a couple of extraplanar Fey creatures, and that seems a little odd to me.

[afroakuma]

A: Just why does the Lady of Pain hate gods?

Two very good reasons. 1) They're all petty children squabbling over slices of existence itself and Sigil is the cake of all cakes; she doesn't want her city messed up by powergrabs. 2) Belief is extremely important on the Planes. If Sigil stops seeming impartial, neutral and cosmopolitan, then pretty soon it won't be. A power entrenching itself in Sigil would thus do great harm to the fulcrum of the multiverse. She tried it that way for a while, and Aoskar went and challenged her directly, so now it's a no-go.


B: Secondly, did Spelljammer ever go into just what Phlogiston did aside from explode if you lit it on fire?

Clarify?


I've tried to find a way to get access to planes with reliably accelerated time in 3.5, and there appears to be a distinct lack of said sources - are there any planes known to have significantly accelerated time (from our perspective) and if yes, how could a PC in a 3.5 game get access to them? (preferably without upsetting someone that resides there)

You mean planes where you can spend more time than passes on the Material Plane? There are a few; one example I can think of off the cuff is The Boundless, a demiplane which can only be accessed through the Ethereal Plane (plane shift won't cut it). Better get everything done on the first visit, though; a second one is eerie and a third is permanent.


Has there ever been an official way to reconcile planescape and spelljammer?

There are two ways of looking at it. The first, and the de facto assumption, is that any world reachable by spelljammer is on the same Material Plane; alternate Material Planes would be those worlds that a spelljammer can never reach because they are a completely different reality. The alternative is that the phlogiston is effectively a fourth Transitive Plane that only links Material Planes to one another.


1) I seem to be able to vaguely recall a race of aquatic humanoids that live in the ocean that surrounds Mount Celestia. Would you happen to know their name, and where I can find more information on them?

You're looking for zoveri. They can be found in Planes of Law if you're interested, or in the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix (note: not the Planescape Monstrous Compendiums. There's a difference.)


2) I know that before 3.X, dragons were more or less tied to the Material Plane, and dragons out in the greater multiverse were supposed to be rare. How do you personally feel about that change with the introduction of planar dragons?

Planar dragons of one sort or another have been a thing for a long while. Personally, I feel they're still exceedingly rare on the Planes, but it makes sense that they would have some form of representation there. As with most things, though, dragons are far more significant on the Material Plane.


3) Speaking of things being attached to the Material Plane, I've always sort of got the notion that Fey are supposed to be deeply connected to the Material Plane (similar, but obviously not identical, to the way Outsiders are connected to their planes). Is this view canon? I'm asking because I have found a couple of extraplanar Fey creatures, and that seems a little odd to me.

Extraplanar fey do exist, though they're quite unusual, but then, the fey do have gods of their own on the Planes so it's to be expected. By and large the fey are linked to the Material Plane and their own Plane of Faerie; this latter is the one fey really need.

[Larkas]

In the other thread, you helped us make sense of Eberron as it could possibly relate to the Planescape cosmology. Have you ever read about Golarion? If so, can you imagine a way to link its cosmology to the Great Wheel? Or are they fundamentally incompatible?

[Jurai]

My dad played Spelljammer back in 2E, and he told me that if Phlogiston were to catch fire, it exploded, prodigiously.

Another Spelljammer question. My dad mentioned a Rupert, a Giant Space Hamster gone horribly wrong. Does something like that show up?

[erikun]

Just some idle questions that I'm throwing out.

1.) Has Ao's status as an "Overdeity" in Forgotten Realms ever been expanded upon, and has he appeared anywhere else in the Planescape/Spelljammer setting to your knowledge?

2.) The Wavefire creature from AD&D2e Monsterous Compendium Appendix III has mentions of the Paraelemental Planes of Steam (Water-Fire) and Dust (Air-Earth). Do you know of any other mentions of such cross-inner plane connections?

[Talothorn]

What are the effects of proximity to The Spire on:
1) Undead (free willed, mindless, and controlled)
2) Constructs
3) Intelligent magic items
4) Someone under the effects of Magic Jar

Edit: by the way, I'm really glad you are back. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

[LOTRfan]

The Zoveri were exactly who I was thinking of, thank you.

4) I know that some races of humanoid live on the planes. The Frost Dwarves living in the Abyss, for instance. So when they die, do they just sort of reappear on their plane of origin as a petitioner? If that is the case, how do you think this affects their societies?

5) Someone else mentioned that you reconciled Eberron's cosmology with that of the Great Wheel. I'm sure you don't want to have to reiterate the whole thing, so could you perhaps tell me which thread you did that in so I can go read it for myself?

6) Please allow me to say that you made some pretty amazing homebrew for the Slaadi. Can I ask which variant you enjoyed making the most? And do you ever intend on going back to working on the Infallibles? Because honestly I think they would be quite cool.

[afroakuma]

In the other thread, you helped us make sense of Eberron as it could possibly relate to the Planescape cosmology. Have you ever read about Golarion? If so, can you imagine a way to link its cosmology to the Great Wheel? Or are they fundamentally incompatible?

I have not read about Golarion, so at this time I can't really do that. I may at some point; it's on the star charts, after all.


My dad played Spelljammer back in 2E, and he told me that if Phlogiston were to catch fire, it exploded, prodigiously.

The popular 3.X simulation is to apply Empower Spell, Maximize Spell and Widen Spell to all spells with the [Fire] descriptor and change the range of all such effects to Personal. Kaboom.


Another Spelljammer question. My dad mentioned a Rupert, a Giant Space Hamster gone horribly wrong. Does something like that show up?

Wooly Rupert the Tyrannohamstersaurus of Ill Omen is indeed a famous gnomish legend.


Just some idle questions that I'm throwing out.

1.) Has Ao's status as an "Overdeity" in Forgotten Realms ever been expanded upon, and has he appeared anywhere else in the Planescape/Spelljammer setting to your knowledge?

Ao is deliberately excluded from Planescape in the sense that as an overdeity, he has no place on the Planes. Overdeities are the overseers of whole crystal spheres and all divine activity taking place within them; Ao is one of several such beings, though the only other one documented oversees Krynnspace.


2.) The Wavefire creature from AD&D2e Monsterous Compendium Appendix III has mentions of the Paraelemental Planes of Steam (Water-Fire) and Dust (Air-Earth). Do you know of any other mentions of such cross-inner plane connections?

The crossover Para-Elemental Planes existed in a more ancient configuration of the multiverse. The opposing forces gradually pushed against each other until the cross connections ruptured, however, so Dust and Steam are now Quasi-Elemental Planes instead of Para-Elemental, and they do not touch Air or Fire anymore. The third one, incidentally, was Shadow, which had a convoluted history that I detailed in a prior thread.


What are the effects of proximity to The Spire on:
1) Undead (free willed, mindless, and controlled)
2) Constructs
3) Intelligent magic items
4) Someone under the effects of Magic Jar

Officially, coming closer to the Spire is the equivalent of entering an antimagic field that only filters out spells of a certain level and up. Unofficially, given that positive and negative energy can't be channeled past a certain point, I'd say that undead, deathless and positive or negative "elementals" can't successfully pass beyond the ring that limits such energy. Further, I'd suggest that the spells involved in making constructs and items are suppressed as normal, such that constructs fail to function and intelligent items go quiet.


Edit: by the way, I'm really glad you are back. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

Glad to be back! I enjoy these threads. :smallsmile:


4) I know that some races of humanoid live on the planes. The Frost Dwarves living in the Abyss, for instance. So when they die, do they just sort of reappear on their plane of origin as a petitioner? If that is the case, how do you think this affects their societies?

The plane doesn't have a complete claim on them; a dead frost dwarf could end up in Carceri or Pandemonium fairly easily, and a petitioner always goes to its patron's realm. Effectively, even though the society is on the same plane, the dead are likely in a vastly different location.


5) Someone else mentioned that you reconciled Eberron's cosmology with that of the Great Wheel. I'm sure you don't want to have to reiterate the whole thing, so could you perhaps tell me which thread you did that in so I can go read it for myself?

This should help you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14744501&postcount=20).


6) Please allow me to say that you made some pretty amazing homebrew for the Slaadi. Can I ask which variant you enjoyed making the most? And do you ever intend on going back to working on the Infallibles? Because honestly I think they would be quite cool.

I think orange slaad were the most fun, though the whole project made me pretty happy. One day I'll resume homebrew work on the Planes, but other projects have been keeping me very busy.

[Larkas]

I have not read about Golarion, so at this time I can't really do that. I may at some point; it's on the star charts, after all.

Oooooh, let us know if you do! On a side note, and reiterating what Talothorn said, it's good to have you back. :smallsmile:

[kkplx]

You mean planes where you can spend more time than passes on the Material Plane? There are a few; one example I can think of off the cuff is The Boundless, a demiplane which can only be accessed through the Ethereal Plane (plane shift won't cut it). Better get everything done on the first visit, though; a second one is eerie and a third is permanent.


Would you mind sharing some more of those "few" planes with accelerated time? While the boundless sounds interesting, the heavy restrictions for getting and staying there make it kinda ineligible for my plans - spending extensive time on the planes to artificially age a PC (or have him study an entire library) while little time passes in the material plane.

I'll also happily research it myself if you can give me a hint where to look, because i had absolutely zero luck so far.

[afroakuma]

Would you mind sharing some more of those "few" planes with accelerated time? While the boundless sounds interesting, the heavy restrictions for getting and staying there make it kinda ineligible for my plans - spending extensive time on the planes to artificially age a PC (or have him study an entire library) while little time passes in the material plane.

I'll also happily research it myself if you can give me a hint where to look, because i had absolutely zero luck so far.

Hm. You'd be better off seeking aging magic than trying to wear yourself down in an unusual plane. There's a 40% chance that the Temporal Energy Plane would serve your needs, but the same chance that you'd experience the opposite. The Far Realm is technically perfect for the time you're looking for; it's just horrifying in every other respect. The Realm of Dreams is technically useless since you can't learn anything there (or rather, cannot retain the perks of learning). Pretty much anywhere I can think of is dangerous or unhelpful. :smalltongue:

[Lord_Gareth]

Are there any (canonical) permanent or semi-permanent gates to the Far Realms? What effects do they have on the area "immediately around" either end of those gates (quotation marks used because 'around' isn't really a thing in the Far Realms except where material taint infects it)?

[afroakuma]

Are there any (canonical) permanent or semi-permanent gates to the Far Realms? What effects do they have on the area "immediately around" either end of those gates (quotation marks used because 'around' isn't really a thing in the Far Realms except where material taint infects it)?

Yes indeedy. The most famous would be from the Gates of Firestorm Peak - the Vast Gate, an invention of elder elves in a time long since past. Leicester's Gap in the Ethereal Plane is also known to lead to the Far Realm. In the reality of the Great Wheel, prolonged Far Realm exposure creates a region known as a cerebrotic blot, which infects the border of the Region of Dreams and begins to taint and warp lesser life in the area. Powerful and extensive blots warp higher forms of life as well, and entities of the Far Realm may leak through. Laws of physics may "wobble" a bit in these areas.

On the Far Realm side, a gate to the Great Wheel is like a light in the deep darkness; tiny and pinpoint, but it attracts attention. The nature of any possible "inverse taint" caused by the Great Wheel is impossible to nail down, since it would be diffused across the infinite layers of the Far Realm.

I'm going to delve into speculation here, though; the Far Realm is by nature impossible to chart or map. "Regions" can be discussed, though, insofar as their "nearness" to a fixed portal or planar entry point. These are not stable, but rather exist contingent on a brush with the Great Wheel.

So, first you have Proxima, the margin of the Far Realm closest to a continuous planar link. The Vast Gate counts as such insofar as the Far Realm is disconnected from conventional time and so this portal is effectively a continuous link. This is the region most commonly described, the realm of the Amoebic Sea and the horrors discharged into known reality. That's right; everything commonly experienced, all the squamous tentacles and disorienting soup of insanity, that's the most hospitable the Far Realm ever gets. Being located near a continuous link, Proxima is "filtered" by the incursion of reality to appear comprehensible to mortal senses. Note that in this case, when I say "comprehensible" I mean "you look and see things," not "it makes any degree of sense."

Approxima is the margin that forms around any instantaneous or terminal incursion; smaller and less stable than Proxima, this region is most notable for the repulsing current in antireality that slowly drags intruders back out through the pinhole puncture they caused. Ostensibly, this bungee cord effect should make Approxima safer, but if you believe that then you've never been dragged backward through a pinhole.

Next up is Mesia, the region where reality's incursion begins to fail. Xaxox is located in Mesia, constantly refreshed by Daruth Winterwood's maddened work. Mesia is where the supposed "facts" of the Far Realm themselves begin to slip away. This margin fills with those entities that combine curiosity with caution, presences that are far removed from the penetration point itself but are near to it in thought. Mesia is severely taxing on the mind and body; reality wanes severely here and very little can be done to protect from that.

Distalia is the farthest of what can even semi-seriously be called the "safe" regions, and can run perilously thin at times. This margin often floods with the nothingness beyond, sucking the unwary well outside any possibility of retrieval. Recognition begins to plummet off here as any veneer of reality mutates into warped abstractions and the native entities shrug off their incursion-inflicted forms. Distalia is effectively the glimmer of light in the darkness for the lords of the Far Realm, and those that did not project forward into Mesia to observe an incursion will likely impose their presence here, should they be at all interested.

Finally, Ultimon is a... not so much a region as a borderline. Ultimon represents the terminus of reality's influence and the effective event horizon of the Far Realm. To enter Ultimon is to give up any reasonable hope of escaping the strange plane, and marks you for certain doom. The mind cannot interpret the nature of Ultimon.

[LOTRfan]

WARNING: 4e Fluff Ahead

I know that this is a pre-4e thread, but I found this piece of fluff particularly interesting. According to the Player's Handbook III, there was once a structure called the Living Gate that could be found within the Astral Plane. It wasn't so much a portal as it was a way of containing a portal. Unfortunately, it was destroyed and the rift was left to expand in the Astral Sea.

The shards of the Living Gate became the Shardminds, a race of psionic Living Constructs. Some believe that in order to rebuild the gate, all Shardminds have to gather together and transmute themselves into a new gate. Others have a very Highlander-ish point of view in which they believe that they must slaughter every other Shardmind in existence (including themselves) so that their souls will form a new Living Gate.

[Lord_Gareth]

So...half-elementals. How do those even happen?

[afroakuma]

So...half-elementals. How do those even happen?

It's a magical world, Gareth. A magical, absurdly kinky world.

[hamishspence]

Maybe, while the distant descendants of genie-human hybridization are genasi, the hybrids themselves are half-elementals despite genies actually being Outsiders?

[LOTRfan]

Do you have any information regarding the world that the Saurials originally hailed from?

[afroakuma]

Do you have any information regarding the world that the Saurials originally hailed from?

There is exceedingly limited information on the subject. It is said that Moander Darkbringer kidnapped the few brought to the Lost Vale from an alternate Prime Material Plane. There's a Saurialspace near the AOF on my star map, but there are no details on it and I can't attest with certainty that it's their world. Supporting the notion that they do come from an alternate Prime is the fact that other members of their kind, the Lacerials, reside in Kara-Tur, where they have no connection to Moander or the Lost Vale and are considered native to Toril. This suggests a preexisting planar link that the Darkbringer followed, rather than the vast interstellar distance between Realmspace and the putative Saurialspace.

What little can be gleaned tells us that saurials have a much more integrated racial culture, considering their collective kind before their specific type. I can also tell you that there exist more kinds of saurials than the four found on Toril, though we don't know how many or what they might be. It could be theorized that, as the same four kinds were brought over by Moander as reside in Kara-Tur, the remaining types of saurial are unable to acclimate to either Faerun or Kara-Tur. Culturally, saurials have at least three major divinities; a harvest deity, a god of justice and a patron of adventurers and the fortunate.

[Darkhope]

Hey Afroakuma thanks for this thread! My question might be a little "homebrew" but I would like your opinion. I run an optimized epic game and most the PC's are very potent. There are only so many BBEG and plots I can keep canon. So I had to expand on the traditional great wheel cosmology to keep players tested and on even ground with "average monsters."

As we know, most outer planes are infinite. So what happens when PC's visit a plane and decide to pick a direction and just keep going? If their in the outlands they might could reach the hinterlands or versions of the hinterlands on the other planes. So my idea was the further out you go, the bigger things get. Eventually you get to societies that are all Paragons or incredibly high HD. I call this "The Rift." Where the borders of all the outer planes merge into one incredibly large place like the surface of Jupiter! This is a place you can't planeshift or teleport too, it would be like going to the far realm, just without the bad stuff. Where normal is Adv 20 HD Psuedonatural Paragon Dire Tigers!

One step further, Ever seen Star Trek Next Gen? The Crystalline Entity? http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ddsc8baLPjo/T_cgPmRjRXI/AAAAAAAAHZs/knigbQbEzOQ/s1600/Star+Trek+The+Next+Generation+crystalline+entity+b luray.jpg


In my campaigns, Ao rules the "Crystal Sphere." Which is basically the Crystalline Entity. At every point or intersection of the Crystalline Entity is a plane of existence. Prime, Inner, Outer, Negative, Positive, Demi-planes, etc... In Sigil, inside the shattered temple lies the only portal in existence that can get you outside the crystal sphere (Crystalline Entity) and into regular real world space in the milky way galaxy.

You may not even wanna comment on this but I was interested in your opinion very much. Hope I made it clear enough! Thanks in advance!

[afroakuma]

A little bizarre, but if it works for you then why not? :smallsmile:

[Darkhope]

A little bizarre, but if it works for you then why not? :smallsmile:

You just popped my balloon...

Ok, more direct and ignoring homebrew. What do you put at the edge or "way out there" on the infinite outer planes? Only sources I can find are the Hinterlands on the Outlands. But what about the other planes?

[afroakuma]

You just popped my balloon...

Sorry about that :smalltongue: Not sure what you were looking for me to say.


Ok, more direct and ignoring homebrew. What do you put at the edge or "way out there" on the infinite outer planes? Only sources I can find are the Hinterlands on the Outlands. But what about the other planes?

The reason it's a concept for the Outlands and not the other Outer Planes is because the Outlands have a center. The other planes all have countless major features strewn across their infinities; the spectacles of the Outlands are finite in number (at least before the Hinterlands) and all can be charted relative to the Spire.

[Lord_Gareth]

So...

Aligned Outsiders - celestials, modrons, fiends, slaad, etc - outside of their 'normal' alignments are canonical. Chaotic modrons, non-evil succubi like Falls-From-Grace, evil celestial, etcetera, exist - and, rather importantly, retain their alignment subtype. My question is this: how does this influence their behavior?

Planetouched like tieflings and aasimar, after all, are said to deal with 'urges' towards particular alignments (violence and treachery in the first case, mercy and justice in the latter) that influence them regardless of whatever alignment they actually are. Is this magnified for Outsiders who walk away from their 'typical' alignments? How do they live with that day-to-day?

[LOTRfan]

7) So Vestiges live outside of "reality." Does this mean that they reside in the Far Realm, or do they live somewhere even farther from conventional reality than the Far Realm?

8) Modrons are outsiders that just happen to have mechanical traits, yes? I seem to recall a racial rewrite up for monodrones that treated them as living constructs, and it seemed weird for an exemplar race.

[afroakuma]

Aligned Outsiders - celestials, modrons, fiends, slaad, etc - outside of their 'normal' alignments are canonical. Chaotic modrons, non-evil succubi like Falls-From-Grace, evil celestial, etcetera, exist - and, rather importantly, retain their alignment subtype. My question is this: how does this influence their behavior?

Doesn't.


Planetouched like tieflings and aasimar, after all, are said to deal with 'urges' towards particular alignments

They don't have subtypes, though. Well, not those subtypes, anyway.


7) So Vestiges live outside of "reality." Does this mean that they reside in the Far Realm, or do they live somewhere even farther from conventional reality than the Far Realm?

Closer to conventional reality. Still very strange, but nowhere near that strange. You might call it the Near Realm. :smalltongue:


8) Modrons are outsiders that just happen to have mechanical traits, yes? I seem to recall a racial rewrite up for monodrones that treated them as living constructs, and it seemed weird for an exemplar race.

When 3.X updated them it made them (horribly under-CR'd) outsiders the first time, then constructs. They're supposed to be outsiders, but you can see how the alternative interpretation would be popular.

[Lord_Gareth]

Are there any planes that are inimical to Prime natives the way that, say, Hell is inimical to [Good] beings?

[LOTRfan]

Closer to conventional reality. Still very strange, but nowhere near that strange. You might call it the Near Realm. :smalltongue:

Near Realm. I like that. :smalltongue:

So sort of an inbetween between the reality of the multiverse and the unreality of the Far Realm.

[Lord_Gareth]

Speaking of vestiges - I know that certain vestiges becoming 'real' again would be Bad (like Acerak), but would a vestige gaining 'true reality' again be bad in general, or only if you pick out a real jerkface to do it with?

[LOTRfan]

9) I'm currently looking at the rules for demonic possession.

In order to be able to possess something, a demon must have at least 4 HD and a Charisma score of 13. To move a possessed object with no moving parts, the demon must have 10 HD and a Charisma score of 17.

My question is this; must these traits be inherent to the type of demon in order for the demon to use them (so a dretch could never possess someone, no matter how advanced it is), or can advanced versions of lesser demons use these abilities if they meet the requirements after advancement?

[afroakuma]

Are there any planes that are inimical to Prime natives the way that, say, Hell is inimical to [Good] beings?

Aren't they all? :smalltongue:

In all seriousness, it's rare to find a plane whose trait hates everything from the Material Plane. The best candidates for it are actually rather friendly and just ignore your Material status (Astral and Ethereal Planes). It's possible that there's another plane out there that has this trait, though... :smallcool:


So sort of an inbetween between the reality of the multiverse and the unreality of the Far Realm.

A first inbetween. Vestiges are still tuned to reality as it is commonly recognized, so to speak. The Far Realm is extremely outside of such context. Mind you, this concept only makes Otiax even more disturbing...


Speaking of vestiges - I know that certain vestiges becoming 'real' again would be Bad (like Acerak), but would a vestige gaining 'true reality' again be bad in general, or only if you pick out a real jerkface to do it with?

Ehh, some of them could conceivably return, but the issue is that most vestiges are vestiges for a reason - they've been squeezed out of having any place in the multiverse. The once-mortals would be relatively safe to bring back, while entities such as Tenebrous or the old Primus would be horribly disruptive.


10) I'm currently looking at the rules for demonic possession.

In order to be able to possess something, a demon must have at least 4 HD and a Charisma score of 13. To move a possessed object with no moving parts, the demon must have 10 HD and a Charisma score of 17.

My question is this; must these traits be inherent to the type of demon in order for the demon to use them (so a dretch could never possess someone, no matter how advanced it is), or can advanced versions of lesser demons use these abilities if they meet the requirements after advancement?

As those are baseline requirements of personal power rather than requirements of breed, any demon that currently meets them can gain the possession ability. Myself, I prefer the Fiend of Possession prestige class for that effect.

[Lord_Gareth]

So...what's the relationship between fiends and gods?

Not the general relationship, mind - I'm not talking about the relationship between, oh, the Dukes of Hell and the gods. I'm referring more to fiendish servants of various deities. Especially in Hell's case, this sort of thing sounds like it'd create conflicts of loyalty. Are such servants released from their obligations to Hell in favor of loyalty to their new master?

[123456789blaaa]

WOO! :smallbiggrin:

Why does Baphomet have such an affinity for minotaurs? I get they they represent the fusion of man and beast and all that but they're also sort of dumb. Isn't Baphomet a scholar as well as a brute? Isn't there some other creature that is both intelligent and represents the fusion between man and beast better?

How are the Kuo-Toa that worship Dagon different than those that worship Blibdoolpoolp? Do they have different mindsets and goals? What are their relations with each other?

Is there anything the people of the planes won´t worship (besides the Lady)? :smallconfused:

After excaping his prison and having the Age of Worms come to pass, what would Kyuss´s new goals be? Can you see his faith spreadilng to other planes? Would he live on the material plane?

[Claudius Maximus]

What exactly are the requirements of a fiendish pact? I seem to remember some book in 3.5 talking about a king selling the souls of all his subjects, but I also seem to recall reading elsewhere that one can only sell their soul of one's own free will, and something like magical compulsion and presumably the actions of other mortals you've never met wouldn't cut it. If anything other than a completely free choice will suffice, where is the line drawn?I don't follow. Could you clarify?

My apologies - I was away for a while. And yeah, that was kind of an unclear post. Basically what I'm asking is whether you can really do things like sell other people's souls just because they're your subjects, or if it requires a technically "free" decision on the part of each person under whatever definition Hell or universal law uses for free will. If there are other unusual cases of unwilling non-LE people losing their souls to hell, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

[afroakuma]

So...what's the relationship between fiends and gods?

Not the general relationship, mind - I'm not talking about the relationship between, oh, the Dukes of Hell and the gods. I'm referring more to fiendish servants of various deities. Especially in Hell's case, this sort of thing sounds like it'd create conflicts of loyalty. Are such servants released from their obligations to Hell in favor of loyalty to their new master?

In the case of baatezu, many are either "purchased" by deities from their lords, are mercenary, are driven by personal faith, or are the creations of that deity (abishai, for example). Some are on loan, some are under contract, and some are made of souls under that god's purview. That said, this is exactly why I planned the anathemas.


Why does Baphomet have such an affinity for minotaurs? I get they they represent the fusion of man and beast and all that but they're also sort of dumb. Isn't Baphomet a scholar as well as a brute? Isn't there some other creature that is both intelligent and represents the fusion between man and beast better?

Baphomet is Demon Prince of Beasts. Brutality and savagery are in his purview and he viciously defends that office. Out of base violence and wanton instinct he cultivates the cunning, malice and purpose that arises in the populations that do him homage, and they become the leaders in his cult, the hand that swings the axe. Intellect and scholarship out of peace and reason are of no use to Baphomet, for he sees no value in coddled memorizing and ivory tower philosophers. An understanding of the true banality and accessibility of power through raw violence and the beast within is necessary to grow in real wisdom and free one from the shackles and fetters that a belief in morality and external civility wraps around you. Minotaurs stand highest among his followers (which include ogres and giants) because they possess a sinister cunning that belies their apparent intelligence and monstrous nature.


How are the Kuo-Toa that worship Dagon different than those that worship Blibdoolpoolp? Do they have different mindsets and goals? What are their relations with each other?

Blibdoolpoolp's opinion of those that worship Dagon is unknown; for that matter, so is her opinion of Dagon. Kuo-toa worshiping Dagon tend to be less organized and more insane than those who venerate Blibdoolpoolp; the former dwell on chaos and the horrible lore of the depths, while the latter include lawful and even morally neutral kuo-toa and plan the propagation of darkness and the realm of the Sea Mother. While the whips probably consider the Dagonites to be heretics, the Dagonites likely don't think much of the whips.


Is there anything the people of the planes won´t worship (besides the Lady)? :smallconfused:

Infinite size, infinite obsessive crazy. Even the Lady gets worshiped for brief periods by stupid and soon-to-be-dead people.


After excaping his prison and having the Age of Worms come to pass, what would Kyuss´s new goals be?

Well, first off, after he was done being a wretch, he'd probably want to recruit an army of psychic goblins and ship them to Athas. Then he'd take up residence in a realm between two mountains on the Elemental Plane of Air, from whence he'd campaign to exile a traveling carnival from the local village. After that I suspect he'd disassemble into his component worms and shed a few of them.

Eventually I think his individual pieces would seek to travel back in time to pretechnological society and get gender reassignment surgery so that they could rule over the era in a multimonarchial society.

Kyuss's goal with the Age of Worms is conquest of the living and rule over the last age of humanity. Kyuss despises life and wants to consume it all with his worms, creating new undead servitors to worship his greatness and horrible majesty. In this way he seeks to become a true god, one with the power to spread the dogma of the end of life.


Can you see his faith spreadilng to other planes? Would he live on the material plane?

Yes, no. He'd definitely want to bring about the Age of Worms on other worlds, and he would not remain on the Material Plane as a full god (especially not after the stupid obelisk backfire). He'd probably establish a realm in Hades; Gehenna a bit less likely and Carceri much much less likely (he's had quite enough of prisons, thank you).

[Eldan]

That reminds me of a plot hook that was once suggested on Planewalker.

Someone tries to set up a cult of the Lady outside of Sigil, where she can't do anything about it. There were several suggested motives, but I just liked hte idea that the originator of the cult just wanted to see what would happen.

[afroakuma]

My apologies - I was away for a while. And yeah, that was kind of an unclear post. Basically what I'm asking is whether you can really do things like sell other people's souls just because they're your subjects, or if it requires a technically "free" decision on the part of each person under whatever definition Hell or universal law uses for free will. If there are other unusual cases of unwilling non-LE people losing their souls to hell, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

Ahh. No. If you've ever seen the Simpsons episode where Bart sells his soul to Milhouse, it doesn't work like that. It's a much deeper process that involves powerful supernatural forces; no form of human authority can substitute for that. Now, one's soul can definitely be handed off against one's will, but again, powerful magic is involved, not some sort of bureaucratic mugging.

Devils generally want corrupted souls; that is, souls they can own and transform. Other fiends are less picky, but the vast majority still can't just pop into a bar and gank some drunks. Devils want to "improve" you, daemons want to exploit you, and demons... demons want to destroy. (The "you" is implied.)

[LOTRfan]

I misnumbered my last question; it should have been nine. Not that this affects you any, I'm numbering them for my own reference.

10) Can you explain to me what relationship exists between the Isle of Dread and the Abyss? I know that the island is infested with demons and dinosaurs, and that's basically it.

11) Speaking of dinosaurs, is there anywhere amongst the planes where dinosaurs are common? I figure the Beastlands are a given, but anywhere else?

12) Just what is the prisoner that is being kept in Elysium?

[afroakuma]

10) Can you explain to me what relationship exists between the Isle of Dread and the Abyss? I know that the island is infested with demons and dinosaurs, and that's basically it.

The Isle of Dread is home to a secretive cult of kopru, aberrant aquatic monstrosities that worship Demogorgon. Here is kept one of his artifacts, a great black pearl that causes demonic taint to set in over the Isle. In short, it's an outpost of the Prince of Demons' power on Oerth.


11) Speaking of dinosaurs, is there anywhere amongst the planes where dinosaurs are common? I figure the Beastlands are a given, but anywhere else?

Rumor tells of the Planes of Cordance, and that one of them, Pangea, plays host to countless such beasts. Only rumors, of course. As animals, they exist in various forms across the many planes, but yes, chiefly the Beastlands.


12) Just what is the prisoner that is being kept in Elysium?

A secret! :smallwink:

From the first thread:


I'll give you some ideas as to who it isn't, though:

• It's not a baatezu, or any Archduke of Hell/Lord of the Nine.

• It's not a monster of legend.

• It's not a tanar'ri, or any Demon Prince/Demon Lord.

• It's not from the Far Realm.

• It's not from the Inner Planes.

• It's not a god.

• Most of the forces of evil trying to seek it out haven't any idea what it is.

[faircoin]

I don't even know if this is the right place (it most definitely isn't as familiar with the system as other questions), but what's the relationship between the concepts of space (as in, outer space) and planes? Do planes replace the entire concept, or are there planes with space?

[LOTRfan]

13) Does Kronos count as a deity, or merely the most powerful Titan in existence?

14) This black pearl reminds me of the seed of N'gharl. Was it ever officially stated that the Dreaming Gulf was made from the corpses of the same deities who removed N'gharl from the Abyss? And if not, what is the likelihood that the two events (the removal of N'gharl and the creation of the Dreaming Gulf) are related?

[Pokonic]

What's the basic power structure among the many ocean-bound races (assuming that, for the sake of things, they all could be found in one single massive body of water somewhere)?

[afroakuma]

I don't even know if this is the right place (it most definitely isn't as familiar with the system as other questions), but what's the relationship between the concepts of space (as in, outer space) and planes? Do planes replace the entire concept, or are there planes with space?

Space is represented in D&D (at least in 2E) by the Spelljammer campaign setting, which uses Ptolemaic concepts of outer space in tandem with an Age of Sail flavor to create a cosmos where solar systems are confined in crystal spheres that float in an endless sea of a substance called phlogiston. The entirety of this sphere/phlogiston "soup" is the Prime Material Plane, and worlds such as Krynn (Dragonlance), Toril (Forgotten Realms) and Oerth (Greyhawk) are all in their own spheres relatively proximate to one another. Space is all one plane (conventionally; an alternate interpretation suggests otherwise) and interacts just as the Material Plane does with the cosmology of Planescape.


13) Does Kronos count as a deity, or merely the most powerful Titan in existence?

After consulting the Big Book of Gods, I can assert that Kronos (listed as Cronus) is most definitively a deity as well as the most powerful Titan (that one with a capital T). Apart from him, only Gaea, Rhea and Ouranos are gods of any notable stature, though this is not to say that they were never gods (well, Gods. Greece, you know...)


14) This black pearl reminds me of the seed of N'gharl. Was it ever officially stated that the Dreaming Gulf was made from the corpses of the same deities who removed N'gharl from the Abyss? And if not, what is the likelihood that the two events (the removal of N'gharl and the creation of the Dreaming Gulf) are related?

It was so stated. The gods that destroyed N'gharl are the same ones whose dreams in death now spawn the loumaras.


What's the basic power structure among the many ocean-bound races (assuming that, for the sake of things, they all could be found in one single massive body of water somewhere)?

Just how many do you want me to address, here? :smalltongue: There are quite a few.

Oh, for those who are interested, I fleshed out an earlier answer regarding the Far Realm.

[LOTRfan]

I am definitely interested in hearing what you have to say about the Far Realm.

[afroakuma]

It should be on the first page.

[Khedrac]

The Isle of Dread is home to a secretive cult of kopru, aberrant aquatic monstrosities that worship Demogorgon. Here is kept one of his artifacts, a great black pearl that causes demonic taint to set in over the Isle. In short, it's an outpost of the Prince of Demons' power on Oerth.
Err, surely the one place the Isle of Dread is not is actually Oerth?

The original Isle of Dread is just South of the Known World - i.e. on what is now usually called Mystara. It has the dinosaurs and kopru but very few (if any) demons.

The Isle of the Ape is the closest Oerth-ian analogue to it, but that is a demi-plane in its own right, accessible (only?) from Castle Greyhawk (which may or may not be on Oerth any more - see Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk [EttRoCG]).

Now, if one postulates that pre-Mystara "Known World" and Mystara (with or without the Hollow World) are different worlds then we have two places for the Isle of Dread - Mystara and Urth
Urth is the actual name of the world of the Known World series - it's in the Immortals book in the megalith monster entry, which is where things get a bit complex.
The world map in the Companion books is a map of the continents of Earth a few million years ago, and somewhere there is some text about that being the age of magic and now being after the magic left, however the Immortals books say that megalith Urth is in a waking cycle when the D&D adventures are set and a sleeping cycle now (which should cause problems for spacecraft re-entry). Either way there's a strong indication that the Known World was supposed to be Earth.
Just to complicate things still further, EttRoCG also includes the following tidbit of lore: Oerth is one of five parallel Material Plane worlds, the others being Yarth, Aerth, Uerth, and Earth.
So is the Isle of Dread on Earth, or is it on Uerth where people can't quite spell the name of the creature that they live on thinking it a planet?

[hamishspence]

Was it put into Oerth as part of the Savage Tide Adventure Path in Dungeon Magazine? That one is very much a Greyhawk adventure- and has the Isle of Dread, exactly as afroakuma describes it.

[Khedrac]

That would explain it, but I must say that that was a very naughty thing for them to do - Oerth already had the Isle of the Ape, why mix things up?
Interestingly I think I may have played that adventure path, but the DM had moved it to inside the Hollow World and I completely missed the Isle of Dread duplication (unless the DM skipped that bit).

[CRtwenty]

What's up with the LeShay? Are they the original elves or something?

Also what exactly happened to Geryon? He's got stats both as a deposed Arch Devil as well as a Vestige. Also in 4th ed he's no longer a vestige and is back to being an exiled Arch Devil. The entire thing makes my head hurt.

[afroakuma]

Err, surely the one place the Isle of Dread is not is actually Oerth?

Oh, originally it was Mystara all the way, but Savage Tide, as noted, tied it to Oerth, so as of 3.5 that's baaaaaasically where it's at. Knock out the Greyhawk links and it easily goes in the other direction.


What's up with the LeShay? Are they the original elves or something?

LeShay are ancient beyond the concept of age; they belong to the previous multiverse, or a previous multiverse, or a previous configuration of this multiverse which ceased to have ever been. They are not elves, but have the traits of elves; the reason for this is unknown (game designer laziness? Almost certainly). While all this information is highly suspect, it's definite that they are a race from so long ago that to attempt to categorize it beyond the broadest strokes is pointless.


Also what exactly happened to Geryon? He's got stats both as a deposed Arch Devil as well as a Vestige.

Geryon got squeezed out of reality. He's a vestige. He was a deposed archdevil and is a nice object reminder of how convoluted Asmodeus' schemes can be.

[Pokonic]

Just how many do you want me to address, here? :smalltongue: There are quite a few.

Oh, for those who are interested, I fleshed out an earlier answer regarding the Far Realm.

Good question...hmm, what about any aquatic race that could be found in Forgotten Realms.:smalltongue:

[Feytalist]

Good question...hmm, what about any aquatic race that could be found in Forgotten Realms.:smalltongue:

That's most of them, surely?

I do remember an interesting little entry somewhere about the extended skirmishes between the aquatic elves and the sahuagin, though.

Also, the aboleths. Always fun learning more about them :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

The timeline in A Grand History of the Realms, about the various factions of the Inner Sea, was pretty interesting.

One thing that stood out- the Morkoth weren't especially villainous, but became so.

It would be interesting to see it in more detail though- haven't read the original sources from which AGHotH got the timeline.

[afroakuma]

Good question...hmm, what about any aquatic race that could be found in Forgotten Realms.:smalltongue:

Still quite extensive. Which ones are you looking to have included?

[Urpriest]

Good question...hmm, what about any aquatic race that could be found in Forgotten Realms.:smalltongue:

As a general principle, good races get oppressed, hunted, and conquered by Sahuagin. Beyond that, it really depends on the nations in question; as afroakuma says this is quite a big topic.

[Cirrylius]

In the case of baatezu, many are either "purchased" by deities from their lords, are mercenary, are driven by personal faith, or are the creations of that deity (abishai, for example). Some are on loan, some are under contract, and some are made of souls under that god's purview. That said, this is exactly why I planned the anathemas.


As an aside, (IIRC) actual faith among the Baatezu tends to be... not forbidden, exactly, because every superior understands the value of clerical magic/priestly status and the symbiotic relationship fostered by equitable dealings with gods, but discouraged; the Lords of the Nine aren't big on the idea of Devils gaining power by dividing their loyalties.

[ShadowFireLance]

Is there anyone in the known lore that could (Theoretically) equal, defeat, or destroy the Lady of Pain?
Has she ever left Sigil?

[afroakuma]

Is there anyone in the known lore that could (Theoretically) equal, defeat, or destroy the Lady of Pain?
Has she ever left Sigil?

No and no. Still no.

[Mystify]

What is the lady of pain? She isn't a deity, right? Where did she come from?

[Pokonic]

Still quite extensive. Which ones are you looking to have included?

Fair enough. Hm.

Aquatic elves, Merfolk, Merrow, Tritons, Scrags, Sahuagin, and Locathah seem to be the aquatic races that are the most prominent in the game, so there inter-species relations would seem prudent to understanding the politics of the oceans. Most of what I understand is that yes, the Sahuagin are shark people and they war with the Aquatic elves when they can, but other than that most of the other races seem culturally blank.

[hamishspence]

The morkoth "Theocracy of the Deep Ones" also seems to play a big part in the history of the Inner Sea.

There's also the sharlarin, a Faerun-specific race that are basically similar to the other seafolk, but native to the far side of the planet (being brought in by a portal, in large numbers, every few centuries).

[Larkas]

Afro, I know that belief is a strong thing in the planes. But was "belief in an ideal" a source of clerical power back in 2E general and Planescape specifically?

[afroakuma]

What is the lady of pain? She isn't a deity, right? Where did she come from?

The Lady of Pain is a presence that safeguards Sigil. She's not a deity or any other entity of known type or configuration, to the best of anyone's knowledge. Her origin is unknown; she appears in any and all records concerning Sigil except those which are deliberately leaving her out.


Afro, I know that belief is a strong thing in the planes. But was "belief in an ideal" a source of clerical power back in 2E general and Planescape specifically?

In 2E, the default was actually just to be a cleric of clericfulness. Serving a specific deity/mythos was exceptional, and DMs were encouraged to make specialty class features available to such clerics. Planescape had far fewer of these priests, but worship of an ideal was not out of the question.

[Larkas]

Hmmm, interesting! Now, a follow up: can a misplaced belief substantiate a new god? I'll explain: suppose that you follow the teachings of, say, St. Ajora. There is a whole clerical order dedicated to the guy and his teachings. Clerics, of course get their spells and perform their miracles. The catch is: there never was any guy by that name. Could a St. Ajora appear from thin air, as a god no less, just because people believe in his existence?

[Eldan]

No and no. Still no.

I may be an exception among Planescape DMs, but I really prefer the answers "maybe and maybe".

Confirmed absolute power is not as interesting as a complete mystery.

[Fax Celestis]

Are aboleths really time-traveling cthulhoid squidthings from outer space the Far Realms?

[AuraTwilight]

I believe it's Illithids that fit that description. Aboleths are freaked out by the Illithids because they have a racial memory going back to the dawn of time and the Illithids' entire civilization just APPEARED one day.

[CRtwenty]

Are aboleths really time-traveling cthulhoid squidthings from outer space the Far Realms?

No, they're time traveling cthulhoid squidthings from the distant future. They're still from the regular multiverse.


Hmmm, interesting! Now, a follow up: can a misplaced belief substantiate a new god? I'll explain: suppose that you follow the teachings of, say, St. Ajora. There is a whole clerical order dedicated to the guy and his teachings. Clerics, of course get their spells and perform their miracles. The catch is: there never was any guy by that name. Could a St. Ajora appear from thin air, as a god no less, just because people believe in his existence?

Yes.

[Eldan]

No, they're time traveling cthulhoid squidthings from the distant future. They're still from the regular multiverse.

Nono, that's Illithids.

Aboleths are lovecraftian tentacle-fish from the last multiverse.

[afroakuma]

Hmmm, interesting! Now, a follow up: can a misplaced belief substantiate a new god? I'll explain: suppose that you follow the teachings of, say, St. Ajora. There is a whole clerical order dedicated to the guy and his teachings. Clerics, of course get their spells and perform their miracles. The catch is: there never was any guy by that name. Could a St. Ajora appear from thin air, as a god no less, just because people believe in his existence?

Yes, but there's a catch, and it's called syncretism. In short: if another god cottons on and fills the role of the divine being these people believe in, supplying their spells and miracles, that god can benefit from the worship and assume the other name as an alias or facade. Shar the Dark Goddess did this with Ibrandul after killing him, and it's a pretty popular way for deities to keep a hold over their portfolio in regions where their mainstream church would be unknown.


I may be an exception among Planescape DMs, but I really prefer the answers "maybe and maybe".

Confirmed absolute power is not as interesting as a complete mystery.

I'm aware you feel this way, and I know many others do as well.

For my part, I prefer her omnipotent and invulnerable, and here's a solid reason why: because while she cannot be displaced or destroyed, there are very rare but very real things that bother her. And anything that bothers an entity unquantifiable on any given scale has to be pretty interesting. Sends a message that power alone isn't what's needed to succeed or fail on the planes, which I think is important to the tone of the setting.


Are aboleths really time-traveling cthulhoid squidthings from outer space the Far Realms?

No no no. You're thinking of illithids. Aboleths are horrible fishbominations almost as old as time itself. They're descendants of the former Far Realm entity called Piscaethces.

[CRtwenty]

Nono, that's Illithids.

Aboleths are lovecraftian tentacle-fish from the last multiverse.

Ack, my bad. I totally misread that.

[afroakuma]

So, anything else for me at the moment?

[Larkas]

Let's see...

1) Is it common, among Crystal Spheres not named Realmspace, to exist overlap between deities' portfolios? Or are these deities generally merely different facets of the same god? (Think, for example, Zeus = Thor.)

2) Can cultural differentiation create different gods from an original singular deity? (In the real world, there is some evidence indicating that Thor and Zeus both "inherited" the "god of thunder" title from the same, more primitive god.)

3) Could the Lady of Pain be the Overdeity of Sigil, or even the Great Wheel? :smalleek:

[AuraTwilight]

The Lady of Pain is not an Overdeity because it's too obvious and boring.

[afroakuma]

Let's see...

1) Is it common, among Crystal Spheres not named Realmspace, to exist overlap between deities' portfolios? Or are these deities generally merely different facets of the same god? (Think, for example, Zeus = Thor.)

No, or not for very long. It can and does happen, especially when racial pantheons get involved, though the major racial deities tend to hold an exclusive or significant portfolio in any event (for instance, Gruumsh is a god of revenge).


2) Can cultural differentiation create different gods from an original singular deity? (In the real world, there is some evidence indicating that Thor and Zeus both "inherited" the "god of thunder" title from the same, more primitive god.)

Basically no. A god can choose to divest itself of a portfolio and essence that are either not germane to its core portfolio or becoming too prominent for its liking, which is where you get sponsored hero-deities and demideities from in a lot of circumstances.


3) Could the Lady of Pain be the Overdeity of Sigil, or even the Great Wheel? :smalleek:

No and no. Overdeities govern crystal spheres and work to remain unknown and uninvolved. The Lady has no sphere, is not of the Material Plane, and is pretty darn public.

[Khedrac]

Normally when I hear discussion of over-deities the plural is a bit misleading because there's Ao and err, Ao.

However - what sort of a deity is Io?

Under 2nd Ed it was a lot more powerful than any other "normal" deity.
In 3rd Ed he(?) is in someways worse - able to have worshippers of all alignments, and in some ways be all alignments...
I usually reckon he is probably another over-deity (with an interestingly similar name) but I wonder if there's anything more definite out there.

So Afroakuma, what's your take on the nature of Io?

[Feytalist]

Normally when I hear discussion of over-deities the plural is a bit misleading because there's Ao and err, Ao.

There's one who watches over Krynn, apparently.

Has that one ever been named?

[Larkas]

There's one who watches over Krynn, apparently.

Has that one ever been named?

I might be mistaken, but I remember him being named simply "Overgod".

[Eldan]

I'm aware you feel this way, and I know many others do as well.

For my part, I prefer her omnipotent and invulnerable, and here's a solid reason why: because while she cannot be displaced or destroyed, there are very rare but very real things that bother her. And anything that bothers an entity unquantifiable on any given scale has to be pretty interesting. Sends a message that power alone isn't what's needed to succeed or fail on the planes, which I think is important to the tone of the setting.

Interesting. That is actually a lot closer to how I like it than I thought. Because here's how I think of it: there are things that bother her and she has limits. If she can be bothered, she's not totally above everything, hence not totally omnipotent.
It doesn't mean anyone will ever find those weaknesses. But there are theories enough, especially about why she is so adamant about worship.

[Yajirobe]

I might be mistaken, but I remember him being named simply "Overgod".

The name is High God. Okay, reading Dragons o Summer Flame, one could argue that Krynn has 2 overdeities, since Chaos is implied to be the primordial force that originated everything and the High God is the one that arranged the block into something that is not straight entropy and madness.

[afroakuma]

Normally when I hear discussion of over-deities the plural is a bit misleading because there's Ao and err, Ao.

However - what sort of a deity is Io?

Under 2nd Ed it was a lot more powerful than any other "normal" deity.
In 3rd Ed he(?) is in someways worse - able to have worshippers of all alignments, and in some ways be all alignments...
I usually reckon he is probably another over-deity (with an interestingly similar name) but I wonder if there's anything more definite out there.

So Afroakuma, what's your take on the nature of Io?

Canonically, Io was a greater deity of the highest order. For some reason, the multiversal shift officially knocked him down to immediate. It may have something to do with the gap between belief and worship (dragons are just not that religiously observant and don't exist in numbers compared to humanoids) or possibly with the increased presence of living breeds of dragon on the Outer Planes (Io may be diffusing his essence to cause this to come to pass).

Io's always been an intriguing mystery, for various reasons. Chief among those is that he does grant spells and has no tie to a single crystal sphere, so he's not an overdeity, yet his divine realm has never been located. He's not known to have been part of the Time of Troubles, though his children were and he's certainly known on Toril. In short, Io is never encountered or seen save through his divine connections.


There's one who watches over Krynn, apparently.

Has that one ever been named?

The Highgod.


Interesting. That is actually a lot closer to how I like it than I thought. Because here's how I think of it: there are things that bother her and she has limits. If she can be bothered, she's not totally above everything, hence not totally omnipotent.
It doesn't mean anyone will ever find those weaknesses. But there are theories enough, especially about why she is so adamant about worship.

That's not a question of omnipotence or invulnerability, to my mind; it's a question of omniscience. It's not possible to kill her, and all but impossible to avoid getting killed by her, but you can definitely do something she won't know all about and/or cause her to have to speculate, and the uncertainty annoys her.


The name is High God. Okay, reading Dragons o Summer Flame, one could argue that Krynn has 2 overdeities, since Chaos is implied to be the primordial force that originated everything and the High God is the one that arranged the block into something that is not straight entropy and madness.

Chaos (aka Ionthas) is not an overdeity. He is a greater deity who believes himself to be Father of All and of Nothing. He's quite mad. The Highgod, like Ao, is an unknown figure who oversees the whole crystal sphere and all of its divinities. His most prominent mention is the oath Takhisis swears to Huma to leave Krynn; that's how obscure we're talking.

[Mystify]

Is there any school of belief in planescape that says something along the lines of "All gods are just aspects of the one true God"?

[LOTRfan]

I seem to recall one which states that the gods are hypocrites, and are in fact not gods at all. They believe them to be leeches that feed off of mortal power, and something that shouldn't be worshipped. They don't believe in any god, but they speculate that if there is one it is beyond comprehension of the universe and can't be see/killed.

I'm sure Afroakuma will correct me as to whether or not this is canon or fanon I have read somewhere and have subsequently confused as canon because I like it.

[Eldan]

Nono, that's the Athar, they believe exactly that. There's a reason they only hang around in Sigil, there would be a lot of smiting otherwise.

[afroakuma]

Is there any school of belief in planescape that says something along the lines of "All gods are just aspects of the one true God"?

Oh sure. Not a significant one, mind you, but it crops up.


I seem to recall one which states that the gods are hypocrites, and are in fact not gods at all. They believe them to be leeches that feed off of mortal power, and something that shouldn't be worshipped. They don't believe in any god, but they speculate that if there is one it is beyond comprehension of the universe and can't be see/killed.

I'm sure Afroakuma will correct me as to whether or not this is canon or fanon I have read somewhere and have subsequently confused as canon because I like it.

Like Eldan says, the Athar are a prominent faction that believe the powers are posturing frauds who are not immortal, omniscient or omnipotent and do not deserve worship, let alone the powers they wield over consenting dupes.

[Lord_Gareth]

Similar to my question on Baatezu, how do Archons and the natives of Arcadia handle conflicting loyalties between various causes, patrons, and lords?

As a side note: do any gods have Modron servants, or do Modrons strictly serve the interests of Mechanus?

[Galvin]

Explain the dragon god Io to me. What is his history and lore in 3.5?

[CRtwenty]

How do different planar aspects of the same deity work? For instance FR Lolth and Greyhawk Lolth are very similar, but still have a few key differences (mostly Lolth dealing with the whole FR Drow Pantheon)

[afroakuma]

Similar to my question on Baatezu, how do Archons and the natives of Arcadia handle conflicting loyalties between various causes, patrons, and lords?

They don't typically need to; Angels, not archons, are the primary servants of the gods of good. Further, archons aren't quite as "owned" as baatezu, so as long as they're serving principles of law and goodness, they're on the money.


As a side note: do any gods have Modron servants, or do Modrons strictly serve the interests of Mechanus?

Yes. :smallamused:


Explain the dragon god Io to me. What is his history and lore in 3.5?

Neither is given much of a tweak in 3.X; instead, his power level is dropped in Races of the Dragon. Take anything the Races books have to say on gods with a grain of salt, however; most of them forget the original members of the various racial pantheons and replace them with suspiciously similar substitutes, so it's in general a poorly-handled topic in those books.


How do different planar aspects of the same deity work? For instance FR Lolth and Greyhawk Lolth are very similar, but still have a few key differences (mostly Lolth dealing with the whole FR Drow Pantheon)

The drow pantheon also have relevance in Planescape; there are undoubtedly other worlds where they are a factor in Lolth's work. Oerth is just not one of them. It's very hard for gods to fully insulate their portfolios on Toril, which is a key reason why so many of them have a presence there - it's easier to steal new worship away.

The Lolth of Oerth and the Lolth of the Realms are one and the same, the chief difference being that what Lolth does to her followers on one world doesn't necessarily carry over. The ridiculous "Silence of Lolth" that decimated the drow of Faerun, for instance, had no bearing on her worshipers on other worlds, since she didn't need it to. Lolth still resides where she always did and the drow of Faerun have been successfully trolled.

[Mystify]

You have established it is possible for deities to steal worship intended for other things by making that an aspect of themselves. Is it possible for one to gradually take over all of the worship of an existing god and replace them? Has this happened?

[afroakuma]

You have established it is possible for deities to steal worship intended for other things by making that an aspect of themselves. Is it possible for one to gradually take over all of the worship of an existing god and replace them? Has this happened?

It is possible and has happened. It's not easy to do since usually the other god is extremely aware of it and will come punch you in the face. It's a pretty terrible way for gods to try and war against one another. In many cases, gods in danger of getting "washed out" will seek a new power base to reestablish themselves, which is why gods of the Celtic and Finnish pantheons are part of the Faerunian pantheon.

[Claudius Maximus]

So what's the deal with Eberron's vague deities? Why are they so hands-off? Do they have a presence in any way outside of Eberron and whatever weird planes or subplanes it's connected to? How are they viewed by religious scholars in the planes, who are used to much more concrete and active entities?

[enderlord99]

Does the Plane of Shadow connect to:


Eberron?
Khyber?
Both, as well as Sibyris?
Some other part of the Eberron "system?"

[LOTRfan]

15) What exactly did Tenebrous do when he deposed the old Primus and took over?

16) What can you tell be about Luz?

17) What can you tell me about the Orc-Baboon hybrids whose name I cannot remember right now? I believe they're related to a demon lord, but I really can't recall.

18) Why do the Illithids have a god?

[Claudius Maximus]

Can you cast spells like Blink on planes other than the material? The ethereal plane is only described as being coexistent with the material, but I also seem to recall something about the ethereal connecting to all over the place, even allowing for planar travel.

[afroakuma]

So what's the deal with Eberron's vague deities? Why are they so hands-off? Do they have a presence in any way outside of Eberron and whatever weird planes or subplanes it's connected to? How are they viewed by religious scholars in the planes, who are used to much more concrete and active entities?

Eberron's spiritual connections have always been pretty nebulous (fits the setting's tone better, you see) with rare exceptions. It may be a trait imposed by the Overpower of that sphere that the gods are limited in direct interactions with their faithful.

It's speculated that some of Eberron's deities may be aliases of gods from other spheres who collect worship by proxy on Eberron, especially the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six. Some suggest that Eberron's gods reside on the Outer Planes in their native aspects and are distinct from other, similar deities. Of course, there's little to prove that the gods even exist.


Does the Plane of Shadow connect to:


Eberron?
Khyber?
Both, as well as Sibyris?
Some other part of the Eberron "system?"


Yes to all.


15) What exactly did Tenebrous do when he deposed the old Primus and took over?

He activated the Great Modron March in order to discover the whereabouts of the Wand of Orcus. When he had his answer and the March had ended, he removed himself from the Infinity Web and retreated so a new Primus could be chosen. He did not enjoy the experience, to put it mildly.


16) What can you tell be about Luz?

Do you mean Iuz?


17) What can you tell me about the Orc-Baboon hybrids whose name I cannot remember right now? I believe they're related to a demon lord, but I really can't recall.

There are so many primate monsters in D&D; I'm afraid you'll have to narrow this one down for me.


18) Why do the Illithids have a god?

Now that's an interesting question. Illithids have no preoccupation with an afterlife and very few are interested in divine magic. In Ilsensine they see an idealized version of an elder brain, essentially the apex of what mind flayers aspire to be: the ultimate collectors and masters of that which can be known, a supreme mental force. Essentially, Ilsensine is that which they revere.

Illithids actually had at least one other deity; Maanzecorian, the illithid god of secrets, was the nominal subordinate of Ilsensine but did his own thing more often than not.


Can you cast spells like Blink on planes other than the material? The ethereal plane is only described as being coexistent with the material, but I also seem to recall something about the ethereal connecting to all over the place, even allowing for planar travel.

The Ethereal Plane has curtains of shimmering color where Astral conduits from other planes (or rifts into demiplanes) touch the ether, but does not directly contact planes other than the Material. Therefore, spells and magic items that use it don't function on the Outer Planes, etc. Blink is a weird exception; it can work, but it won't move you into the Ethereal Plane if it's not there to blink between. You'd best hope you have somewhere to blink to, or be prepared for a strange experience assuming the spell works at all.

[Eldan]

It should be noted that up to second edition, the Astral and Ethereal Planes were different: the Astral was only coterminous to the Prime and Outer Planes, but not the Inner Planes, while the Ethereal was coterminous to not only the Prime, but also the Inner Planes.

So, if you go by strict Planescape canon, you could cast Blink on the Inner Planes.

[afroakuma]

So, if you go by strict Planescape canon, you could cast Blink on the Inner Planes.

Could. Part of the multiversal corrections process included the separation that prevented it from working again.

[Fax Celestis]

Does Nyarlathotep have a Faerunian, Eberronian, or Oerthian equivalent? What about Cyäegha? Ithaqua? Daoloth? Adramelech?

[afroakuma]

Does Nyarlathotep have a Faerunian, Eberronian, or Oerthian equivalent?

Officially, the aboleth elder evil Y'chak the Violet Flame is derived from Nyarlathotep with some Hastur elements.


What about Cyäegha?

Closest match would be Tharizdun.


Ithaqua?

Father Llymic hits the predatory, cold, alien and miniony qualities of Ithaqua, but overall it just doesn't line up perfectly. Thrym or Kostchtchie might be more accurate.


Daoloth?

Tricky, not least because I'm not best familiar with Daoloth. The general concept lies right on that edge between obyriths and the Far Realm. An argument could even be made that he resembles a draeden in some fashion.


Adramelech?

Adramalech, Chancellor of Nessus. :smalltongue:

Unless this is also something from the Lovecraftian side and not the Adramelech of classic demonology.

[123456789blaaa]

Would Kyuss have any allies amongst the powers of the planes after succeeding in bringing about the Age of Worms and proceeding in his goals?

Part of Kyuss's portfolio is "Unholy Transformation of the Flesh". What does this mean exactly?

Would undead be more inclined to worship Kyuss than other gods given that undead are sacred to Kyuss, and his followers are not permitted to destroy them except in self-defense? I've looked around a bit and it seems most of the other gods of the undead only see the undead as tools.

I seem to recall a bit about Kyuss getting a "tiny green worm" from a "distant reality" when he was first starting out. It isn't stated that this is a Kyuss worm...I'm not sure if this is true though. Do you remember anything like this?

From the Forgotten Realms wiki:


Myrkul was a powerful adventuring necromancer in his mortal years, traveling with Bane and Bhaal, dedicated each to a quest to attain divinity for themselves. They traveled to the citadel of Jergal who, luckily for them was tiring of his existence as lord of the end of everything. Breaking off his skeletal knucklebones after an argument over which of the three would rule over the other two, they were each thrown by the mortals to determine which of Jergal's portfolios they would receive. Malar tried and failed to interrupt this game.

Is the bolded part true? If so, how did he do so?

[LOTRfan]

Yeah, I meant Iuz (which just further proves how little I know of him). And the baboon-orc hybrid I am thinking of may be Losels.

[afroakuma]

Would Kyuss have any allies amongst the powers of the planes after succeeding in bringing about the Age of Worms and proceeding in his goals?

Look Kyuss, just because you were stupid enough to get ganked into your own monolith doesn't mean you get sympathy planning help. Figure out your own blasted future.

Plenty of forces of evil out there, though nobody likes sharing so anyone who collaborated with him would betray him/get betrayed in the end. The demon lords Ugudenk and Obox-ob might be natural allies.


Part of Kyuss's portfolio is "Unholy Transformation of the Flesh". What does this mean exactly?

Kyuss considers both life and death to be abominable. Both, to Kyuss, are failed states of being. Undeath is the state of superiority to nature and primitive universal law, and the myriad forms of undeath are the hierarchical manifestations of that superiority. All things should be twisted away from the course of life and made to become undead, or failing that, achieve a new form of life that exults in the tearing down of the natural world. Birth and growth must end for all time in the mountain of crawling bones that shall writhe as it upholds the eternal throne of Kyuss.


Would undead be more inclined to worship Kyuss than other gods given that undead are sacred to Kyuss, and his followers are not permitted to destroy them except in self-defense? I've looked around a bit and it seems most of the other gods of the undead only see the undead as tools.

Undead worship is a pale thing to begin with, but many of the undead Kyuss's servants create are of little or no intellect, driven only by the urge to infect, destroy and ravage. Even the mighty ulgurstasta was not designed and loosed with independent thought in mind. Kyuss is not a patron of sentient undead. His chief works are mindless hosts sent to clumsily rip apart the living. Sentient undead are more likely to serve their own patrons (typically the same evil deities they worshiped in life) or turn to the gods of their own kind (Mellifleur, Kanchelsis, etc.)


I seem to recall a bit about Kyuss getting a "tiny green worm" from a "distant reality" when he was first starting out. It isn't stated that this is a Kyuss worm...I'm not sure if this is true though. Do you remember anything like this?

Yes. It's the preamble to "The Spire of Long Shadows." Pretty much verbatim, too.


Is the bolded part true? If so, how did he do so?

Yes and no. The original challenge involved bowling lich skulls across Hades, because Jergal is awesome and doesn't mess around. However, Malar wanted in on the game, so he hunted the skulls to seize them and prevent a victor being declared until he could toss his hat in the ring.

While he did so, Jergal proposed a new test - a game of knucklebones, played with his very own. By the time Malar returned, the game had concluded with Bane the victor and Myrkul the runner up.


Yeah, I meant Iuz (which just further proves how little I know of him). And the baboon-orc hybrid I am thinking of may be Losels.

Iuz the Old One is the demigod son of the Witch-Queen Iggwilv and the Demon Prince Graz'zt (www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KUJE2xs-RE&t=0m45s). He can be read about at this handy link (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Iuz). Further questions can be taken here as always.

Losels are a rather unfortunate lot; they're not particularly bright or otherwise noteworthy, to the point that in the 2E Monstrous Manual they're just one of many entries under "Mammal." Bred as grunts and war muscle by both Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood (not collaboratively, mind you), losels are glorified baboons with the bare minimum of intellect needed to follow orders and recognize authority, as well as the theoretical potential to become adepts and practice low-level spellcasting. By and large, though, they have never been significant, and despite their associations in life, most dead losels show up in Arborea, where they feel most comfortable.

[Lord_Gareth]

Have there been any (relatively) recent cases in planar history of gods mustering their armies and marching off to war?

[123456789blaaa]

Undead worship is a pale thing to begin with

You mean it doesn't give as much as living worship does? Or they just don't put as much effort into worshiping as living beings? Either way, why is this?


but many of the undead Kyuss's servants create are of little or no intellect, driven only by the urge to infect, destroy and ravage. Even the mighty ulgurstasta was not designed and loosed with independent thought in mind. Kyuss is not a patron of sentient undead. His chief works are mindless hosts sent to clumsily rip apart the living. Sentient undead are more likely to serve their own patrons (typically the same evil deities they worshiped in life) or turn to the gods of their own kind (Mellifleur, Kanchelsis, etc.)

I get that he wouldn't create intelligent undead but why wouldn't other independently created intelligent undead come to worship him? Would he treat them worse than the gods of their own kind? Does he dislike intelligent undead as servants?


Yes. It's the preamble to "The Spire of Long Shadows." Pretty much verbatim, too.

Any ideas what the green worm is and which reality it was from?

What do you think would have happened if Malar had succeeded?

What can you tell us about Ravanna, King of Rakshasas?

What is the relationship between Urdlen and The Glutton?

[Eldan]

I'm running Modron March/Dead Gods and my players actually got it into their heads to head into Thanatos to find out more. Do you know if there's more information on it anywhere other than in the Book of Chaos? The state it was in when ruled by the Kiaransalee would be preferable, but I'll take anything.

[CRtwenty]

What exactly happened during the Silence of Lolth? I've been reading the City of the Spider Queen adventure and tried to look some of it up on wikipedia but the information I've found is kind of disjointed. As far as I can tell Lolth decided to split the Demonweb Pits from being a layer of the Abyss to being its own separate Demi-Plane and for some reason this cut her off from Toril.

I just don't really get her reasoning, especially since the Demonweb Pits still seem to be part of the Abyss in the other settings and are only a demi-plane in the Forgotten Realms now.

EDIT: Also is there any real information about what's on top of Celestia other then a "mortal-erasing light of pure goodness and law"?

[afroakuma]

Have there been any (relatively) recent cases in planar history of gods mustering their armies and marching off to war?

Nope.


You mean it doesn't give as much as living worship does? Or they just don't put as much effort into worshiping as living beings? Either way, why is this?

A bit of the former, because their animating energy is tainted. Largely the latter, because there's less incentive to align yourself with a choice of afterlife when you're functionally immortal.


I get that he wouldn't create intelligent undead but why wouldn't other independently created intelligent undead come to worship him? Would he treat them worse than the gods of their own kind? Does he dislike intelligent undead as servants?


You seem to be interpreting "Held as sacred, not to be destroyed except in self-defense" as something noteworthy. Most intelligent undead would process it as "Free surprise round, morons." What are you going to do, really? Massage the rigor mortis out of them? Feed them raisins (i.e. undead grapes)? The best thing the priests of Kyuss can really do for the undead is slap buffs on them, which is also the same thing any evil god wanting to use them as tools would do. Except that Kyuss is a puny, pathetic, trapped demigod. Why should they subscribe to the guy whose primary dogma is "eliminate the food supply?" Intelligent undead already know that they're special snowflakes; Kyuss has nothing new to tell them. Bane will make them tyrants; Erythnul will give them ages of charnel and carrion. Talona will aid them in attainting cities to weaken the herd. Vecna will offer them secrets to transcend the limitations of undeath.


Any ideas what the green worm is and which reality it was from?

Well, it's a Kyuss worm - the first Kyuss worm. It likely came from an alternate Prime, though it's not impossible that it originated in some Lower Plane or in a far crystal sphere. It's certainly a curiosity.


What do you think would have happened if Malar had succeeded?

Technically he did, insofar as he ended the game of skill. I assume your real question is "what would have happened if Malar forced his way into the proceedings," to which the answer is that there would have been death. The Dark Three were ready to kill each other before the game of chance was proposed; put Malar into the mix and they'd all feel threatened. Three murderous psychopaths feeling threatened isn't where anyone wants to be, nor is it a good plan to be facing a god in combat. How that battle would play out is difficult to say, but it's to be expected that once the whole business devolved into violence, Jergal's patience would be at an end and there would be no winner.


What can you tell us about Ravanna, King of Rakshasas?

Start with this. (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Ravanna) I'll take further questions as they arise.


What is the relationship between Urdlen and The Glutton?

Same as the relationship between Coke and Pepsi, VHS and Betamax, Blu-Ray and HDDVD, Star Wars and Eragon, Lord of the Rings and Eragon...

Basically for one bizarre reason or another the Races books (particularly Races of Stone) feature knockoffs of preexisting racial deities instead of those deities themselves.

Anyway, since they both exist now, let's go over the key differences.

The Glutton is a lesser deity, whereas Urdlen is an intermediate power. Maw vs. mole. Heavy mace vs. claw bracer. Destruction and Strength vs. Earth and Hatred. Giant badger vs. giant mutant albino mole. So the broad strokes are different.

The Glutton is a venal and petty deity of disaster and greed, blamed for rotten luck and serving as the gnome boogeyman. He takes gnomes as servants and is big into demons and general ruin and disorder.

Urdlen is something worse.

A nightmare force of sheer hate, Urdlen tears through its realm in the Abyss in maddened "patterns" that leave tunnels where his petitioners struggle, hoping not to get caught in the path of their god. No myths tell of his awakening; the truth is either unknown or - more likely - has been blotted out by the other gnomish deities, who do not comprehend the blind, alien malevolence Urdlen embodies. Urdlen is worshiped by spriggans and may have had a hand in their creation. It is obsessed with blood and the draining of vital forces, and to contact it (as a priest or otherwise) involves getting a minor hemorrhage (1d4 damage). Urdlen hates you.

So that's the basic setup. The Glutton's who you call upon if you're crazy or exiled, and want to break up communities or steal lots of gold or collapse a tunnel. Urdlen's the one you call if blood bubbling hot and crimson let it flood wash the cracked earth in the red rain seas arise and all shall yield their pitiful lot fluids spill into the ocean that makes whole the rock and when all consumed become then the egg splits and the great poison leaks forth


I'm running Modron March/Dead Gods and my players actually got it into their heads to head into Thanatos to find out more. Do you know if there's more information on it anywhere other than in the Book of Chaos? The state it was in when ruled by the Kiaransalee would be preferable, but I'll take anything.

The Book of Chaos has a fair bit on Thanatos under Kiaransalee. What more would you like to know?


What exactly happened during the Silence of Lolth? I've been reading the City of the Spider Queen adventure and tried to look some of it up on wikipedia but the information I've found is kind of disjointed. As far as I can tell Lolth decided to split the Demonweb Pits from being a layer of the Abyss to being its own separate Demi-Plane and for some reason this cut her off from Toril.

I just don't really get her reasoning, especially since the Demonweb Pits still seem to be part of the Abyss in the other settings and are only a demi-plane in the Forgotten Realms now.

Basically, someone decided to do something pointless and stupid, and gave the Forgotten Realms a new "tree" cosmology shortly before the release of the Manual of the Planes. Boneheaded idea, and it annoyed people who wanted to use the two together (Skip Williams' brilliant advice: "no adapting. Use the Plane of Shadow to link the two cosmologies). The shift was reflected in fiction via the Silence of Lolth, a poorly-justified ransacking of drowkind that primarily served as a great big middle finger to people like me who enjoy the crossover settings.

You can tell I'm a big fan of this.

Anyway, as far as my work goes, I don't consider it canonical since other sources that aren't an anthology work by a cadre of authors ramshackled together to justify a wrongheaded design decision clearly have Lolth right where she belongs, 66th floor of the Abyss. My official position on it is that Lolth just pulled a fast one on the drow of Faerun to expose cults of the other members of the Dark Seldarine and punish them for splitting off worship (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE&t=1m10s) that should be hers and hers alone.


EDIT: Also is there any real information about what's on top of Celestia other then a "mortal-erasing light of pure goodness and law"?

Well, Zaphkiel resides up there, and possibly the souls of those he protects as well. I suspect the unwritten implication is that the divine realm of a power the game has always preferred not to list is located up there. I'm going to stop at this point and assume your response was an incredulous "No way!" and let the implied answer do what it must. Site rules and all that.

Beyond that, nothing's been said about it. Chronias remains one of the great mysteries of the Planes.

[CRtwenty]

Well, Zaphkiel resides up there, and possibly the souls of those he protects as well. I suspect the unwritten implication is that the divine realm of a power the game has always preferred not to list is located up there. I'm going to stop at this point and assume your response was an incredulous "No way!" and let the implied answer do what it must. Site rules and all that.

Beyond that, nothing's been said about it. Chronias remains one of the great mysteries of the Planes.

So something like this then? :smallwink:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iEJsjR6CsPc/UFY7Sf43n5I/AAAAAAAAB3g/ljXOsnrJveU/s200/Great_Seal_of_United_States.jpg


I'm just going to rule that it's where the Archons keep their muiltiverse wide spy network and they have a giant conspiracy to hide its existence. Hence why people who make it to the top get "erased".

[afroakuma]

You might say that.

Personally, I feel it's also the realm where the archons' predecessors reside.

[LOTRfan]

When you say the Archon's predecessors, are you implying that there used to be a race of Lawful Good outsiders that fit the same concept as both the Obyrith and the Baatorians? If so, what happened to them? I mean, I doubt the forces of Lawful Good would willingly wipe a primordial force of Lawful Good the same way the forces of Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil did with their counterparts.

[afroakuma]

When you say the Archon's predecessors, are you implying that there used to be a race of Lawful Good outsiders that fit the same concept as both the Obyrith and the Baatorians?

There's no evidence of it, but it's certainly possible.


If so, what happened to them?

Nobody knows, but they were likely present at least in the early battles of the War of Law and Chaos. It's only theorized that they ever did exist.

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
You seem to be interpreting "Held as sacred, not to be destroyed except in self-defense" as something noteworthy. Most intelligent undead would process it as "Free surprise round, morons." What are you going to do, really? Massage the rigor mortis out of them? Feed them raisins (i.e. undead grapes)? The best thing the priests of Kyuss can really do for the undead is slap buffs on them, which is also the same thing any evil god wanting to use them as tools would do. Except that Kyuss is a puny, pathetic, trapped demigod. Why should they subscribe to the guy whose primary dogma is "eliminate the food supply?" Intelligent undead already know that they're special snowflakes; Kyuss has nothing new to tell them. Bane will make them tyrants; Erythnul will give them ages of charnel and carrion. Talona will aid them in attainting cities to weaken the herd. Vecna will offer them secrets to transcend the limitations of undeath.
<snip>

Do intelligent undead get treated like special snowflakes by members of those faiths you mentioned? I obviously don't know as much about planar lore as you but I was under the impression that none of those faiths really regard the undead as special (at least, not near to the extent that Kyuss does). Even if the undead think they're awesome and special, I think it would be less great for them if nobody else around them thought so. As for what the members could do for them...well I could list a lot of things. Would you like me too?

To be clear: I'm not trying to debate with you. I understand your points and accept them. I'm just giving a little more detail on why I thought what I did.

Also, the Age of Worms adventure path says that there was a force greater than Kyuss that tried to bring about the Age of Worms. It's one of the suggestions for stuff the PC's can concern themselves with after defeating Kyuss. Any ideas as to what this force is exactly?

Can Fiends like the Demon Lords have actual, true friends?

Assuming the "big three" demon lords of the Abyss were suddenly and inexplicably killed, which other demon lords would be most likely to fill in the resulting power vacuum?

What sort of abilities do you think a Thrall of Ugudenk would have? What about a Thrall of Dwergius?

[fluke1993]

I am not a player anywhere near AfroAkuma's level but please allow a humble petitioner to offer his opinion.

@The Count: Relating to the worship of evil gods by sentient undead; I feel like an evil god would probably treat a vampire or lich or somesuch better than the average servant because a vampire or lich would be more useful than a regular servant (compare a level 1 cleric to the bare minimum for a vampire). Also given that undead are typically not worried about the afterlife, I imagine that who they offer worship too is a combination of brand loyalty (to the god they worshiped in life) and whichever god is willing to offer them the most power. Given that Kyuss is a fairly weak demigod with an agenda pretty much inimical to the living (and for creatures like vampires; the food source) there isn't much reason to worship him. If your going to make the argument that Kyuss would be less likely to betray a sentient undead than another god that may be some argument but all in all I'm not sure that would be generally worth it.

@AfroAkuma: Lets say a sentient undead gets alignment swapped somehow and ends up good. Who would they worship? Could you provide answers for the following: Ghouls, Wights, Vampires, Lichs and Mummies. Would there be any gods (aside from the undead hating ones) that would outright disallow their worship by the undead?

[afroakuma]

Do intelligent undead get treated like special snowflakes by members of those faiths you mentioned?

They don't, but that was my point: when you already feel entitled, you don't need others to tell you that you are.


Even if the undead think they're awesome and special, I think it would be less great for them if nobody else around them thought so.

Why?


As for what the members could do for them...well I could list a lot of things. Would you like me too?

Can you list anything that a god with more status than Kyuss could not do just as well or better?


Also, the Age of Worms adventure path says that there was a force greater than Kyuss that tried to bring about the Age of Worms. It's one of the suggestions for stuff the PC's can concern themselves with after defeating Kyuss. Any ideas as to what this force is exactly?

It could be another Elder Evil that requires the Age of Worms in order to come forth in this neck of reality, but there's a better candidate out there.

Kyuss found the spell weavers, and Mak'ar found the prophecies, but Kyuss is merely the Herald of the Age of Worms, not its outcome and not its master. This title is repeated over and over, and Kyuss doesn't seem to know much more than that.

But Kyuss is served by many beings, and of those who live, the powerful and dedicated avolakias are of unknown provenance. Certainly they work and writhe in all places that Kyuss has left his mark, but what is their origin? What are they after?

I would suggest that the avolakias, those collaborators of alien nature and unspoken design, are involved with the true power behind the Age of Worms. It is said that in the era of Kyuss's weakness, avolakia clerics wielded powerful divine magic supplied by another, unidentified source on his behalf. Who is this source? Canon has no answer, but I've got one for you:

Mak Thuum Ngatha.


Can Fiends like the Demon Lords have actual, true friends?

I don't know that it can be said to exist along any recognizable mortal paradigm, but strong relationships do exist among some of the greatest fiends.


Assuming the "big three" demon lords of the Abyss were suddenly and inexplicably killed, which other demon lords would be most likely to fill in the resulting power vacuum?

Well, there would definitely be a throwdown to catch Demogorgon's stray title. The big guns of tanar'ri-kind are Baphomet, Fraz-Urb'Luu and Yeenoghu. Neither Lupercio nor Vucarik would be inclined to seek the top rungs. Among obyriths, Obox-ob and Pazuzu are most powerful, though Pazuzu has generally been content to remain behind the scenes. Obox-ob would fight fiercely to reclaim his lost title.


What sort of abilities do you think a Thrall of Ugudenk would have? What about a Thrall of Dwergius?

Looks like a job for homebrew. :smallbiggrin:


@AfroAkuma: Lets say a sentient undead gets alignment swapped somehow and ends up good. Who would they worship?

Well, Wee Jas is Lawful Neutral, but if you went LG she'd be a decent choice. Other possibilities might include Tritherion, god of individualism and liberty; Rao, god of peace; Lirr, goddess of poetry; Torm, god of duty; Tyr, god of justice; and Ilmater, god of suffering. I'll sort things out on the rest in a bit.

[Mystify]

Are spellweavers related to the planes? Can you tell me anything about them?

[Eldan]

My question about Thanatos was really more in general. More description is always nice, but I can work with what's given in the Book of Chaos.

Who's Mak Thuum Ngatha? Because someone is currently trying to talk me into running Age of Worms.

[LOTRfan]

Mag Thuum Ngatha is a god of forbidden secrets and the crossing of boundaries (which I just sort of presume to mean the crossing from the Far Realm into reality). His worshipers include psurlons and tsochari, and his holy symbol is a bunch of interconnected squiggly lines.

He's detailed in Lords of Madness, if I remember correctly, but I'm sure that Afroakuma will give a much better answer using other sources as well.

[123456789blaaa]

They don't, but that was my point: when you already feel entitled, you don't need others to tell you that you are.



Why?

Because people like attention. The like being special and being told they're special and treated like they're special. Being sacred is kind of great. It's just how people work.

Now their are certainly people who don't care about that stuff. However, I would also say that their are people that do care about that stuff. If someone thinks they're awesome but everyone else treats them normally, that can be unpleasant for some people. Not everyone of course but some people like being treated "above" others. Besides the practical uses, it's an emotional thing.


Can you list anything that a god with more status than Kyuss could not do just as well or better?

Well it's not really the gods themselves that help the followers right (unless you're really high up in the faith)? The gods are way to busy doing their own thing in their realms to help most of their followers. Instead, the advantage of being in a gods faith comes from other followers. the support you gain and the resources you have access to. This is why I don't think Kyuss being trapped is really that bad (unless I'm wrong?).

IIRC Kyuss's faith is about as big as any other demigods. You just don't see them as much because they're mostly in hiding. So their's not much of an advantage their. One unique advantage Kyuss's undead followers have is getting free minions. I think almost all of Kyuss mindless minions have the "Obey the Wormtouched" feature which causes them to obey any undead servant of Kyuss. Some of these minions aren't pushovers either. As far as I can tell too, Kyuss doesn't care if you use these however you want (as long as they don't get in his way of course). Go send some Overworms to eat that annoying paladin who keeps trying to kill you. Kyuss doesn't mind.

Another nice thing about Kyuss's faith is that he has those prophecies around him. Now these can be averted but they are still strange and potent forces. When his minions release him, it's not just that they're realizing a powerful demigod to go beat his enemies up. The world starts crumbling even in places he hasn't touched. Kyuss is just the Herald. Being on the side of the forces of the apocalypse is quite nice. Having a concrete end goal to work towards is also nice. Simply free Kyuss and the world is "yours".

A tiny benefit is that the planar allies called by clerics of Kyuss are more powerful than normal. They're all demons with the Favored Spawn of Kyuss template slapped on. It's a pretty good template.

What else...oh yeah, Kyuss can actually stomp around on the Material Plane. I'm not sure if this is that special anywhere else but in Faerun at least, Ao stops the gods from doing that. The conversion booklet doesn't mention anything like that for Kyuss though.

One more thing: It actually seems to me that the number of sapient undead servants Kyuss has isn't too bad. We have: Favored Spawns of Kyuss, Kyuss Knights, Swords of Kyuss, Ulgurstastas, Worm Nagas, Worms that Walk, Scions of Kyuss, Wormcallers, and I think Wormdrakes). Out of all his undead servants, that's 9 sapient undead and 7 mindless undead (I think). And I think only 2 of the sapient ones are actually under his control. The rest serve him out of Free Will

Again, not trying to argue, just giving my thoughts.


It could be another Elder Evil that requires the Age of Worms in order to come forth in this neck of reality, but there's a better candidate out there.

Kyuss found the spell weavers, and Mak'ar found the prophecies, but Kyuss is merely the Herald of the Age of Worms, not its outcome and not its master. This title is repeated over and over, and Kyuss doesn't seem to know much more than that.

But Kyuss is served by many beings, and of those who live, the powerful and dedicated avolakias are of unknown provenance. Certainly they work and writhe in all places that Kyuss has left his mark, but what is their origin? What are they after?

I would suggest that the avolakias, those collaborators of alien nature and unspoken design, are involved with the true power behind the Age of Worms. It is said that in the era of Kyuss's weakness, avolakia clerics wielded powerful divine magic supplied by another, unidentified source on his behalf. Who is this source? Canon has no answer, but I've got one for you:

Mak Thuum Ngatha.

Um...holy crap O_O. Mak Thuum Ngatha is called the Nine-Tonged Worm. His portfolio is Worms (duh), Forbidden Knowledge (say didn't Kyuss get the knowledge of the Age of Worms from dreams and those plates?), and Destruction of Barriers (hey wasn't Kyuss trapped in some kind of obelisk? And didn't the first Kyuss worm come from a "distant reality"?). He's also a god. And Avolakias as his servants fits so well! This makes a lot of sense :smallcool:.

EDIT: You know I'm not sure if this would work in-universe but I really like the idea that Kyuss is literally Mak's herald just like Dragotha is Kyuss's herald (and that it's not just a title) :smallbiggrin:. Having another god as a Herald is pretty awesome.



<snip>
Well, there would definitely be a throwdown to catch Demogorgon's stray title. The big guns of tanar'ri-kind are Baphomet, Fraz-Urb'Luu and Yeenoghu. Neither Lupercio nor Vucarik would be inclined to seek the top rungs. Among obyriths, Obox-ob and Pazuzu are most powerful, though Pazuzu has generally been content to remain behind the scenes. Obox-ob would fight fiercely to reclaim his lost title.

Yeenoghu? Really? You barely hear about him these days. Not to mention with losing control of Doresain and Doresains realm I would have thought he was losing power. Fraz also comes as a bit of a surprise :smallconfused:. I would have thought what with being trapped for some time...and losing his awesome staff...and having to rebuild his realm...that he would have been much diminished (he can't even get rid of his infestation problem!). Still powerful yeah but not one of the next big contenders.

Question: What impact would Obox-ob regaining his title have on the planes?


Looks like a job for homebrew. :smallbiggrin:

Yup. I'd do it myself but I'm pretty terrible at homebrew. Not really sure what I could give in exchange for having someone more proficient do it.

Question: Why are their so many "princes" in the Abyss. Obox is the Prince of Vermin, Demogorgon is the Prince of Demons, Orcus is the Prince of the undead. Why no Kings, Lords, or Dukes?


Well, Wee Jas is Lawful Neutral, but if you went LG she'd be a decent choice. Other possibilities might include Tritherion, god of individualism and liberty; Rao, god of peace; Lirr, goddess of poetry; Torm, god of duty; Tyr, god of justice; and Ilmater, god of suffering. I'll sort things out on the rest in a bit.

Besides Wee Jas, that seems like quite a random collection :smallconfused:. I can see why Good creatures in general would worship them but why would Good undead specifically worship them? :smallconfused:

[questionmark693]

So I basically don't understand layers. Should I start my own thread, or are you comfortable explaining them to me here?

[LOTRfan]

Layers are essentially liked mini-planes that make up a larger plane. I like to think of them as coexistent planes of existence (like the Material and the Shadow); moving between the two with magic is really easy, but you can't physically move between one and the other unless you have magic or a portal or something (unless it's Bytopia, but that was always stupid to me).

The way I understand it, the different layers are like separate planes, each of which sort of represents a specific perception of the overall theme of the overall plane (using Bytopia as an example even though it's stupid; Bytopia represents harmony with nature, with one side being more of a taming of nature while the other represents being more in line with nature). That's why a layer formerly part of Arcadia was able to become part of Mechanus; it's perception of reality changed so drastically that it fit the theme of Mechanus more than it did with the theme of Arcadia.

EDIT: You know, I'm going to stop answering questions now, because I feel like I may be stepping on Afroakuma's feet (especially since this is his thread and he is much more knowledgeable on this subject than I am).

[Eldan]

There's actually more than one where you can move physically. In Celestia, you have to climb the mountain to get to the next level. In the Abyss, the Plain of Infinite Portals has portals to all hte other planes. Tiamat guards the gates of Avernus that lead to the other, deeper layers of hell. There's similar natural features on many other planes.

[LOTRfan]

There's actually more than one where you can move physically. In Celestia, you have to climb the mountain to get to the next level. In the Abyss, the Plain of Infinite Portals has portals to all hte other planes. Tiamat guards the gates of Avernus that lead to the other, deeper layers of hell. There's similar natural features on many other planes.

Another reason why I shouldn't be answering questions; I'm wrong. :smalltongue:

I forgot about Celestia, which is weird, as it's my favorite plane. And I didn't really consider The Plain of Infinite Portals to be a contradiction of what I said because without those portals you really wouldn't be able to go from one layer to another easily.

[Larkas]

Layers are essentially liked mini-planes that make up a larger plane.

Unless you're talking about the Far Plane. THOSE layers are really weird. But, then again, everything about the Far Plane is weird.

[afroakuma]

Are spellweavers related to the planes? Can you tell me anything about them?

They are super duper not. Spell weavers avoid the Planes to the best of their ability, which is considerable. An alien race of extremely long-lived magic wielders, spell weavers once had an immense empire that collapsed due to hubris and untempered magic. Very few now remain.


My question about Thanatos was really more in general. More description is always nice, but I can work with what's given in the Book of Chaos.

It's only mentioned again in Monster Mythology. What's in the book is, sad to say, what you've got.


Who's Mak Thuum Ngatha? Because someone is currently trying to talk me into running Age of Worms.

Answered above.


Because people like attention. The like being special and being told they're special and treated like they're special. Being sacred is kind of great. It's just how people work.

People. Undead are not people. You can't apply living human mentality to even other humanoids per se, much less abominable twisted mockeries of life. The issue here is that... how can I put this... It's like seeking the approval of cattle when you run Big Dead Cow's 100% Beef Burger Joint (We Kill Cows And Eat 'Em And Hey So Should You!)


Instead, the advantage of being in a gods faith comes from other followers. the support you gain and the resources you have access to. This is why I don't think Kyuss being trapped is really that bad (unless I'm wrong?).

Not so long ago, Kyuss was incapable of granting spells above 4th level. He's still incapable of generating lots of artifacts, magic items, desecrated regions, etc. etc. etc. and so you're better off with a stronger god who has more followers.


Another nice thing about Kyuss's faith is that he has those prophecies around him.

Not a selling point. It's D&D, there's prophetic gobbledygook everywhere. Not to mention his is "a world without food."


Being on the side of the forces of the apocalypse is quite nice. Having a concrete end goal to work towards is also nice. Simply free Kyuss and the world is "yours".

I can think of no better way to respond than this:


We like to talk big, vampires do. "I'm going to destroy the world." It's just tough-guy talk. Strutting around with your friends over a pint of blood. The truth is, I like this world. You've got... dog racing, Manchester United... and you've got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here. But then someone comes along with a vision. With a real... passion for destruction. Angel could pull it off. Good-bye, Picadilly. Farewell, Leicester-bloody-Square."


What else...oh yeah, Kyuss can actually stomp around on the Material Plane.

When he wins. Supposedly. Assuming he doesn't notice his terrible vulnerability and run off to the Lower Planes immediately. Hard to market yourself on a potential feature when you're a young upstart.


Um...holy crap O_O. afroakuma is one cunning blood

:smallbiggrin:


EDIT: You know I'm not sure if this would work in-universe but I really like the idea that Kyuss is literally Mak's herald just like Dragotha is Kyuss's herald (and that it's not just a title) :smallbiggrin:. Having another god as a Herald is pretty awesome.

Kyuss has no idea, of course, or at best only a vague understanding that the Age of Worms isn't his doing so much as his lucky day.


Yeenoghu? Really? You barely hear about him these days.

I said he was one of the foremost tanar'ri contenders, not that he would win.


Fraz also comes as a bit of a surprise :smallconfused:. I would have thought what with being trapped for some time...and losing his awesome staff...and having to rebuild his realm...that he would have been much diminished (he can't even get rid of his infestation problem!). Still powerful yeah but not one of the next big contenders.

You could have said the same of Orcus not so long ago. Fraz-Urb'luu has always been a quiet menace and one of the more notable tanar'ri lords.

Who did you think I was going to tap? Kostchtchie? Juiblex? The number of truly significant demon lords who would leap at the chance to fill the power vacuum is not as great as one would imagine.


Question: What impact would Obox-ob regaining his title have on the planes?

Other demons couldn't become more powerful than Obox-ob. That's what Prince of Demons does. It would also shift power in the Abyss back to the obyriths, advancing the Blood War to Carceri briefly but causing due alarm in the upper reaches of most hierarchies. Obox-ob doesn't have the influence to restart the War of Law and Chaos, but anything that advances the obyriths is bad juju.


Question: Why are their so many "princes" in the Abyss. Obox is the Prince of Vermin, Demogorgon is the Prince of Demons, Orcus is the Prince of the undead.

"Prince" is the Abyssal vernacular for a demon lord who fully rules one or more Abyssal layers (Baphomet gets a bye).


Why no Kings

Felex'ja the Tiger King, Ilsidahur the Howling King, Rr'ikin'aka the King of Scorpions, Ugudenk the Squirming King...


Lords

Alzrius the Lord of Infernal Light, Eltab the Lord of the Hidden Layer, Haagenti the Lord of Alchemy, Juiblex the Faceless Lord, Lascer the Lord of the Shadow Shoal, Phraxas the Lord of Misery and Despair, Yrsillar the Lord of the Nothing...

In fact, most major demons are demon lords. Demon prince is a step up.


or Dukes?

Alvarez the Purging Duke, Kizarvidexus the Horned Duke...


Besides Wee Jas, that seems like quite a random collection :smallconfused:. I can see why Good creatures in general would worship them but why would Good undead specifically worship them? :smallconfused:

I was selecting Good deities who don't hate undead and order their destruction. Narrows the list. If you want Good deities who actively recruit undead and represent their needs, you'll be waiting a while.


So I basically don't understand layers. Should I start my own thread, or are you comfortable explaining them to me here?

A plane is not just a planet or locale, but an infinite expanse. Some of these infinities are actually multiple infinities grouped together, similar and of shared character but not physically linked.

Layers, in a way, are multiple levels of being on the same plane, multiple ways of experiencing what it expresses. Only the Outer Planes (and the Far Realm) have layers. Each plane's layers work slightly differently from the rest, but the most extraordinary structures are Mount Celestia, where the layers are physically discernible as being "above" and "below" one another despite being infinite in scope, and Bytopia, which has two infinite layers facing one another as though forming a gigantic planar sandwich.

In a practical sense, though, layers are effectively "alternate dimensions" within the same plane. While we order the Nine Hells and distinguish them by "depth," this is not, strictly speaking, accurate. One cannot just dig down so far that one ends up in the next lowest Hell, and most Hells have their own skies above them, not a cavernous expanse of rock. Similarly, Eronia, the second layer of Elysium, is not adjacent to, nor above, nor below Amoria, the first layer; it is simply "more within" the plane.

It's not an easy concept; it's quite abstract when looked at in these terms. If it's still confusing I'd be happy to break it down further.

[Larkas]

It's not an easy concept; it's quite abstract when looked at in these terms. If it's still confusing I'd be happy to break it down further.

About layers being infinite... Are the Far Realm's layers something like demi-layers, then?

What about Mount Celestias'? Those are surely finite... Right?

[Eldan]

They really aren't. You can't really think of hte planes in terms of mortal world geography. I'd assume that if you tried walking around the mountain, it could take you an infinite amount of time. Similarly, climbing the mountain takes variable amounts of time.

Some of the planes are quite flexible in their geography, too. Walking from any major feature to any other major feature in the outlands always takes "about two weeks".

Or in Elysium, how fast you travel actually depends on how many people you help along the way.

[Eurus]

The planes have always had a really weird relationship with infinity.

[CRtwenty]

About layers being infinite... Are the Far Realm's layers something like demi-layers, then?

What about Mount Celestias'? Those are surely finite... Right?

The Far Realm plays by different rules, which are incomprehensible to inhabitants from the normal Planes. There's no sense trying to categorize it.

As for Celestia they're still infinite. You're on a perpetual mountain slope. Remember climbing the Mountain in Celestia doesn't require actual climbing so much as spiritual enlightenment. Somebody who appears on the bottom layer and starts traveling upwards is going to remain on the bottom layer until he accomplishes whatever sort of test the Plane requires for ascension, or until an Archon or somebody helps him out by showing him a Portal.

[afroakuma]

About layers being infinite... Are the Far Realm's layers something like demi-layers, then?

No, they're just infinite in fewer ways. Maybe.


What about Mount Celestias'? Those are surely finite... Right?

Nope!


They really aren't. You can't really think of hte planes in terms of mortal world geography. I'd assume that if you tried walking around the mountain, it could take you an infinite amount of time. Similarly, climbing the mountain takes variable amounts of time.

You could also walk around the whole mountain while missing the thing you're looking for. Climbing the mountain takes as long as it needs to, which is why portals to expedite the process are of such great value.


Or in Elysium, how fast you travel actually depends on how many people you help along the way.

Technically true in most places, though usually an inverse correlation...

[CRtwenty]

Regarding Gods and Undead, the Egyptian Pantheon is pretty Undead friendly. I'm sure Osiris and Anubis have plenty of Good and Neutral aligned undead worshipers.

[afroakuma]

Regarding Gods and Undead, the Egyptian Pantheon is pretty Undead friendly. I'm sure Osiris and Anubis have plenty of Good and Neutral aligned undead worshipers.

I searched Osiris and didn't get confirmation either way, but as he has the Repose domain I didn't want to press the issue. For mummies, though, the pantheon is generally a very strong bet. Nephthys has necromancer levels, she might be one of the better ones.

Anubis is a very special case as he doesn't take worship calls anymore.

[Fable Wright]

There was a question that came up before, about entities that take alignment to incomprehensibly extreme levels; the Lady of Pain for Neutral, and Tharizdun for Evil were the examples I remember. Can you think of what the entities for Good/Law/Chaos would be?

If a character wanted access to a repository of knowledge of the planes such as could be provided by this thread, where would they go to find it?

Are there many Aberrations on the Outer Planes? How do the Exemplar races view the intelligent ones, such as Aboleths and Mind Flayers?

Where do people kicked to another plane by Prismatic Spray wind up?

Why are things that advance Obyrinths "bad juju," and bad for whom?

Why doesn't Anubis take any worshippers?

You've mentioned gods appearing out of nowhere from strong enough faith. Is there, in general, a certain threshold of followers needed for this to happen, or can one extremely high level (17+), fanatically devoted cleric of the God of Giant Space Hamsters who travels throughout the many Crystal Spheres building shrines (but not directly converting others) to his imaginary god be enough of a force for an entity to arise? (Not necessarily a god, but something resembling what he believes in?)

Actually, how much does the faith of high-level characters matter to gods, assuming the characters are faithful but don't evangelize or crusade in the name of the god?

I've seen the Demiplane of Dreams mentioned before. A few questions about it:
1. Where is it located on the Great Wheel?
2. Is it possible to Plane Shift into or out of the demiplane without a spell like the Dream Walk spell?
2a. If so, what would happen if someone's dream-self was planeshifted out of the Demiplane of Dreams? Would the dreamer still be able to wake up?
2b. If so, what would happen if you Plane Shifted into an area of the demiplane that was not inhabited by others?

Finally, are we allowed to ask questions about the Demiplane of Dread?

[questionmark693]

So far what I've gathered is this. Planes are like themes that represent a certain ideal. Layers are like planes that represent different facets of that ideal, and are just as distinct from each other (normally) as other planes are. Is that close?

[CRtwenty]

So far what I've gathered is this. Planes are like themes that represent a certain ideal. Layers are like planes that represent different facets of that ideal, and are just as distinct from each other (normally) as other planes are. Is that close?

Somewhat. Layers are distinct and can have wildly varying traits (for instance Avernus is a meteor scarred battlefield while Cania is a frozen wasteland) but they're still recognizably part of the same Plane and travel between them is usually easier than traveling to a different Plane.

Traveling between layers is generally more like using Teleport to travel to a different part of the same Planet. You might have traveled from the top of a mountain to a boat on the ocean but most things are still the same. Being the Outer Planes though the differences seem more wild to travelers used to the Prime Material but to the inhabitants that live there it's less so. Hell is always going to be overwhelmingly Evil and Lawful, even if one layer has poison gas for air and another has a frozen ocean filled with evil sharks.


There was a question that came up before, about entities that take alignment to incomprehensibly extreme levels; the Lady of Pain for Neutral, and Tharizdun for Evil were the examples I remember. Can you think of what the entities for Good/Law/Chaos would be?

Law is Primus, I've seen Good argued to be Jazirian based on the whole Ahriman connection but that's not backed up by a lot of other material.



If a character wanted access to a repository of knowledge of the planes such as could be provided by this thread, where would they go to find it?

There's plently of places that have large chronicles of knowledge. Celestia has a giant library on one of its layers, the Fortress of Disciplined Enlightenment is on Mechanus, Asmodeus knows pretty much everything but isn't telling. Etc. However getting access to those places and the price that might be asked in return is usually too much of a hassle for your random Loremaster.


Where do people kicked to another plane by Prismatic Spray wind up?

Randomly or determined by the DM.



Why are things that advance Obyrinths "bad juju," and bad for whom?

Bad for pretty much everything in the multiverse that isn't an Obyrith. Especially those on the side of Law. They nearly destablized the entire multiverse back in the day and having them come back into power could spark a second Law vs Chaos war. Which nobody wants.



Finally, are we allowed to ask questions about the Demiplane of Dread?

Yes, just don't ask about the Powers that control it. Like the prisoner of Elysium they're intentionally left vague so nobody knows a thing about them.

[Fable Wright]

Yes, just don't ask about the Powers that control it. Like the prisoner of Elysium they're intentionally left vague so nobody knows a thing about them.

:smallconfused:
You seem to be misunderstanding me. There was a time in a previous Planar Questions thread where people kept asking afro questions about Ravenloft, and he had asked that questions on the topic stop. I'm asking him whether or not the taboo on the Demiplane of Dread is lifted, not about whether or not he'll give solid answers.

[afroakuma]

Keep the peace, please. I like this thread.

I'll get to all questions tomorrow (provided I won't have to doublepost to do so). In the meantime, I ask for patience and the requisite amount of civility needed to keep the thread from an untimely lock. :smalleek:

[CRtwenty]

:smallconfused:
You seem to be misunderstanding me. There was a time in a previous Planar Questions thread where people kept asking afro questions about Ravenloft, and he had asked that questions on the topic stop. I'm asking him whether or not the taboo on the Demiplane of Dread is lifted, not about whether or not he'll give solid answers.

Ah, got it.
From what I remember most of the questions were about the Dread Powers, I can imagine it'd be irritating to keep getting asked about stuff where there's intentionally no real answer.

[Cirrylius]

There's plently of places that have large chronicles of knowledge. Celestia has a giant library on one of its layers, the Fortress of Disciplined Enlightenment is on Mechanus, Asmodeus knows pretty much everything but isn't telling.
There's also the Library of Thoth on the Outlands, but most people craving knowledge who go there don't come out again, just because they discover how much more there is to learn in an infinite library. Mechanus has the Planar Orrey inside the Great Modron Cathedral, but they probably wouldn't let you use it long enough to get REALLY comprehensive answers. The Caverns of thought would be a good place to look for answers, if it weren't for the fact that it's hard to index countless miles of pulsing, hateful gray meat.

[Eldan]

Youcan pretty much be certain that the realm of any god with the knowledge domain will have a library. The more important the god, the bigger hte library. Of course, many of them don't just hand it out. Investigating the realm of Chronepsis or Illsensine, as examples, is notoriously suicidal.

[afroakuma]

There was a question that came up before, about entities that take alignment to incomprehensibly extreme levels; the Lady of Pain for Neutral, and Tharizdun for Evil were the examples I remember. Can you think of what the entities for Good/Law/Chaos would be?

Primus for Law and Ssendam for Chaos. Good is harder because there's no answer. Nobody gets "pure Good" that perfectly. Zaphkiel would probably be closest.


If a character wanted access to a repository of knowledge of the planes such as could be provided by this thread, where would they go to find it?

There are a few great libraries and other vast stores of data across the Planes; unfortunately, most tend to be owned by the likes of Asmodeus and Graz'zt. The prominent gods of knowledge all have their own repositories; Thoth's Great Library is a noted one. Dagon is also a great master of secrets and ancient knowledge and a valuable source of info if you can wrangle it. Ilsensine acquires and collects new information from everywhere, though he stores it within himself. Lastly, the best sources of information on just about anything anywhere are the mysterious flards of Mechanus, though it's extremely impractical to attempt to use them as all-purpose research tools.


Are there many Aberrations on the Outer Planes?

The Outer Planes have their own native aberrations.


How do the Exemplar races view the intelligent ones, such as Aboleths and Mind Flayers?

They've never concerned themselves with aboleths (and the feeling is mutual), but when the illithids appeared in the ancient past, the Blood War stopped and the two sides began drawing up a temporary entente to deal with the emergence of the flayers. Fortunately for the multiverse they didn't have to, since the conference devolved into violence, but still.


Where do people kicked to another plane by Prismatic Spray wind up?

Somewhere random. DM's discretion, it seems.


Why are things that advance Obyrinths "bad juju," and bad for whom?

Let me put it this way. Pale Night, one of the obyrith lords but by no means the strongest, is so horrifying that reality itself refuses to look at her. Imagine the impact of that kind of being existing in greater numbers.


Why doesn't Anubis take any worshippers?

He's got a different job, now: he is the Guardian of Dead Gods, and resides in the Astral Plane. He diverts his worship to the rest of the pantheon to prevent faith-based job loss.


You've mentioned gods appearing out of nowhere from strong enough faith. Is there, in general, a certain threshold of followers needed for this to happen

It's never been specified, but inception requires larger amounts of belief than devotion; i.e. it's not enough to have a church, others outside the church must also come to acknowledge the divinity.


or can one extremely high level (17+), fanatically devoted cleric of the God of Giant Space Hamsters who travels throughout the many Crystal Spheres building shrines (but not directly converting others) to his imaginary god be enough of a force for an entity to arise? (Not necessarily a god, but something resembling what he believes in?)

No. Remember, uncoordinated belief and faith scatter on the winds.


Actually, how much does the faith of high-level characters matter to gods, assuming the characters are faithful but don't evangelize or crusade in the name of the god?

Faith is all the same, really. Being high-level just means you're a better asset, and if you aren't an asset, your faith's as good as the next guy's.


I've seen the Demiplane of Dreams mentioned before. A few questions about it:
1. Where is it located on the Great Wheel?

Any demiplane is located in the Ethereal Plane. I'm going to assume you mean the Region of Dreams or this would be a boring question.

Given its nature, we can conjecture that the Region of Dreams is tied to the Astral Plane, the medium of thought. Where the Astral Plane is a conduit, however, Dream is a sort of net or web, and crossing through it requires risk and effort. The best analogy I can think of would be to depict the Astral Plane as a thread and the Region of Dreams as a ring around that thread. It is coterminous to the Material Plane, and likely the Astral Plane and Outer Planes, but in order to use it as a medium of transport you need to step into the center of Dream. The Dreamheart, "occupying" that space where the Astral would be, is also where the Region of Dreams can allow you to use it as a Transitive Plane; the tension in that area that permits this strange effect also carries with it mortal peril.


2. Is it possible to Plane Shift into or out of the Region without a spell like the Dream Walk spell?

Yes, though very perilous, and you don't get the benefits provided by dream travel.


2a. If so, what would happen if someone's dream-self was planeshifted out of the Region of Dreams? Would the dreamer still be able to wake up?

Dream selves ejected from the Region of Dreams cause their dreamer to awaken. It's possible that powerful though unknown magic exists that can capture or otherwise harm a dream self in ways that would impact the waking world. Plane shift won't do it, though.


2b. If so, what would happen if you Plane Shifted into an area of the demiplane that was not inhabited by others?

Free dreamstuff is the base state of the Region of Dreams; it exists always, even in a lack of dreamers. Areas that are not filled with dreamscapes have the Highly Morphic planar trait and respond to stray thoughts or directed Lucid Dreaming to form a new dreamscape.


Finally, are we allowed to ask questions about the Demiplane of Dread?

As long as the thread doesn't capsize again, fine.


So far what I've gathered is this. Planes are like themes that represent a certain ideal. Layers are like planes that represent different facets of that ideal, and are just as distinct from each other (normally) as other planes are. Is that close?

Just as distinct? No. Layers of the same plane have a certain element of commonality - similar inhabitants, more intrinsic links between them, shared traits. In terms of facets, though, you're right on the money.

[Eldan]

You could possibly create a pale shadow of your giant space hamster god in some planes, though it would probably require directed effort. I.e. you could go about collecting protoplasm on the ethereal and try to form a living creature from it, or move to Limbo and try to think your god into being there, but I assume at best (and that's still very unlikely), you'd get some kind of mid-powered outsider. As a DM, I would perhaps allow some kind of personalized Planar Ally.

[Fable Wright]

Primus for Law and Ssendam for Chaos. Good is harder because there's no answer. Nobody gets "pure Good" that perfectly. Zaphkiel would probably be closest.
Could you describe Ssendam in a nutshell? I looked at the Wikipedia article about him, and I can't see why he's incomprehensibly chaotic.

Lastly, the best sources of information on just about anything anywhere are the mysterious flards of Mechanus, though it's extremely impractical to attempt to use them as all-purpose research tools.

What are the flards of Mechanus?


Let me put it this way. Pale Night, one of the obyrith lords but by no means the strongest, is so horrifying that reality itself refuses to look at her. Imagine the impact of that kind of being existing in greater numbers.
The Obyrinths ruled the Abyss before, and reality remained sane enough. Why would a resurgence be worse? Also, why would the Queen of Chaos take down the Obyrinths if they were such a force? Did she get support from other planes taking them down?


The Dreamheart, "occupying" that space where the Astral would be, is also where the Region of Dreams can allow you to use it as a Transitive Plane; the tension in that area that permits this strange effect also carries with it mortal peril.
What is the Dreamheart, and why is it perilous?
[/QUOTE]

[afroakuma]

Could you describe Ssendam in a nutshell? I looked at the Wikipedia article about him, and I can't see why he's incomprehensibly chaotic.

The oldest Slaad Lord, we don't know if Ssendam is male or female (it has been described as both) or beyond such limited classification. Whereas the other Slaad Lords are a rainbow slaad, a white slaad and a giant humanoid skeleton, Ssendam is... a gigantic amoeboid mass of golden goo with a purple brain in the middle. Ssendam has ties to and is associated with the breakdown of reason and ordered thought. It is a Lord that does not rule, a slaad that is not a slaad, and it spends its time on the plane that is not anything, Limbo. Ssendam is unpredictable, with vast power. Who else would you pick, if you had to because someone asked a silly question with no answers? :smalltongue:


What are the flards of Mechanus?

A flard is a truly bizarre creature indeed; they are found far from the common reaches of Mechanus, always individually, and they're hard to find given that a flard is an infinitely-high marble column that repels all forms of attack. Flards sleep for eons, awakening only to the sound of their individual names (and these are hard to come by). An awakened flard will answer a question before returning to its slumber, in which it acts as a sort of cosmic lightning rod for information. Weirder still: it's quite possible that when you find one you'll be at its base. Oh the Planes; so strange, so wonderful.


The Obyrinths ruled the Abyss before, and reality remained sane enough. Why would a resurgence be worse?

Fine, I lied, it wouldn't be.

Oh wait no, not that at all. Reality as we know it is not what reality was back in the Age Before Ages. Not only has it transformed and grown more complex, it has also seen the emergence of the Prime Material Plane as the arena of activity and the transition of cosmic tensions from Law and Chaos to Good and Evil. Most among the Planes are plenty glad the obyriths didn't taint reality worse than what they managed back then.


Also, why would the Queen of Chaos take down the Obyrinths if they were such a force? Did she get support from other planes taking them down?

She didn't "take down" anything. When the tanar'ri insurgency occurred and her forces were in disarray, she retreated. The obyriths were decimated through a variety of factors.


What is the Dreamheart, and why is it perilous?

It's the massive storm at the metaphysical heart of the Region of Dreams. If you die there, dream self or otherwise, you die for real and are sucked into the Dreamheart, where conventional attempts (raise dead and resurrection) to retrieve you will not succeed.

[Eldan]

Ssendam is a good choice simply because some planes are a bit emptier in VIPs than others and Limbo is one of them.

I'd actually recommend suggesting not 4 or 5 but nine cosmic primal entities, one for each of the cardinal alignments. Zaphkiel fits Lawful Good, but not good in general. Though then, we are left with even more empty spots.

[Fable Wright]

She didn't "take down" anything. When the tanar'ri insurgency occurred and her forces were in disarray, she retreated. The obyriths were decimated through a variety of factors.
My planar history is obviously terrible, then. What did happen that caused the Obyriths to lose the prominence they once had?

Also, can you wake a flard up with its name multiple times to get answers to multiple questions, or does it just ignore you after the first time?

[afroakuma]

I'd actually recommend suggesting not 4 or 5 but nine cosmic primal entities, one for each of the cardinal alignments. Zaphkiel fits Lawful Good, but not good in general. Though then, we are left with even more empty spots.

I'd recommend like, one. The Lady. I think the nature of the question opens itself up to poor links and comparisons that shouldn't be made.


My planar history is obviously terrible, then. What did happen that caused the Obyrinths to lose the prominence they once had?

Obyriths. There is no "n."

The eladrins turned on them and struck a terrible blow, the slaad slaaded off, the tanar'ri rose up against them, and the Queen of Chaos pulled away from the flailing war effort on the banishment of her general and withdrew from planar affairs.


Also, can you wake a flard up with its name multiple times to get answers to multiple questions, or does it just ignore you after the first time?

It dozes off again for a good century or so and doesn't respond to its name during that time.

[TheGeckoKing]

Do all Gods/Relevant Other Beings have to abide by the rules of the Pact Primeval, or just the ones that signed it/were around when it was created?

[Tovec]

Primus for Law and Ssendam for Chaos. Good is harder because there's no answer. Nobody gets "pure Good" that perfectly. Zaphkiel would probably be closest.
God this is an odd conversation.

Would, perhaps, Angels fit the bill? Angels lack a fiendish counterpart, but are ALWAYS good.

Also, Afro, do you have any idea why there isn't a fiendish counterpart. And/Or rather, given the structure of exemplar races, why angels exist given their place as in a nebulous non-counterparts?

[afroakuma]

Do all Gods/Relevant Other Beings have to abide by the rules of the Pact Primeval, or just the ones that signed it/were around when it was created?.

The Pact Primeval is in many ways just one more myth surrounding Asmodeus. The artifact itself is a thing of great power, but its specific enforcement abilities are unknown. Assuming it did what people believe it does, it would not be binding on gods that were not signatory, but would be binding on the archon race as a whole.


God this is an odd conversation.

Would, perhaps, Angels fit the bill? Angels lack a fiendish counterpart, but are ALWAYS good.

It's a conversation I'm tired of having. And no, since he was looking for the one most extreme representative.


Also, Afro, do you have any idea why there isn't a fiendish counterpart. And/Or rather, given the structure of exemplar races, why angels exist given their place as in a nebulous non-counterparts?

Angels, aka aasimon, are not an exemplar race. They are beings of the Upper Planes who exist to serve deities of those realms. My own take is that the Blood War has caused their shadowy counterparts to conceal themselves and wait for its conclusion, and that these beings - anathemas - await beyond the great seal at the bottom of the Ghoresh Chasm.

[Eldan]

Angels aren't even exemplars. The distinction is important.

The Archons, Guardinals, Eladrins, Slaad, Tanar'ri, Yugoloth, Baatezu and Modrons are all native creatures of a plane that arise more or less naturally from its energies or from souls. They don't report to gods, they report to superiors of their own race and the plane itself.

The Angels/Aasimon aren't. They are made by the gods as servants.

[LOTRfan]

So what is this Ghoresh Chasm of which you speak, and what does the Seal look like?

[afroakuma]

So what is this Ghoresh Chasm of which you speak, and what does the Seal look like?

The Ghoresh Chasm is a massive rift in the Grey Waste where once stood a yugoloth city. At its deepest point lies a great seal embedded into the ground which no force has opened. It is marked with the symbols of law, chaos and evil, along with various antediluvian glyphs and a general sense of omen and import. The Blood War held a cease-fire to unite the three great fiendish races, thinking they needed to work together to open it; as usual, the meeting got off to a bad start and the war resumed with no one the wiser as to the true secret of the Ghoresh Chasm.

[LOTRfan]

In the past couple of posts, you've mentioned two different attempts at ceasefire for the Blood War (one for the Illithids' arrival and the other to try to open the seal).

If it isn't too much trouble, could you list all instances in which the fiends have attempted to broker a temporary ceasefire?

[afroakuma]

In the past couple of posts, you've mentioned two different attempts at ceasefire for the Blood War (one for the Illithids' arrival and the other to try to open the seal).

If it isn't too much trouble, could you list all instances in which the fiends have attempted to broker a temporary ceasefire?

1) When the Upper Planes tried to get involved and destroy all the fiends. That ceasefire worked and they absolutely wrecked house with the stupid celestials. After the forces of Good retreated, the Blood War resumed.

2) The illithids.

3) The Ghoresh Chasm.

4) There is no 4.

[CRtwenty]

What do we know about Neth the Plane that Lives? Any clues as to its origins?

Also is the Plane of Mirrors a single Plane? Or are each of the mirror halls separate?

[Fable Wright]

The protoplasm on the Ethereal plane that Eldan mentioned: What is it, and what are its uses?

Also, do you have a list of things known to tick off the Lady?

[afroakuma]

What do we know about Neth the Plane that Lives? Any clues as to its origins?

The usual information that can be found in MotP or what have you. Its origin remains unknown, but as a demiplane could range from mundane to very intriguing.


Also is the Plane of Mirrors a single Plane? Or are each of the mirror halls separate?

Each constellation is a separate plane within the larger umbrella of the Plane of Mirrors. It's a very unique place, to say the least. Deadly, too.


The protoplasm on the Ethereal plane that Eldan mentioned: What is it, and what are its uses?

I think he meant protomatter, which is essentially the "stuff" the Ethereal Plane is made of. It doesn't really have any inherent properties of use, though accretion over a very long period is thought to form natural demiplanes. Magic is used to manipulate protomatter, as with the spell genesis (which creates the demiplane out of protomatter and ethereal vapor).


Also, do you have a list of things known to tick off the Lady?

I think the best form such a list could take would be one word: "Idiots."

As you can no doubt imagine, she's often ticked off.

[Eldan]

The short version is:

Being a god, worshipping her, interfering with the Dabus. And variants on these.

Then there's rumours that she also kills off any faction that gets too large and that this may be the cause behind a wave of inexplicable deaths in the Indeps, but, well, rumours.

[afroakuma]

Mind you, you don't generally annoy her just by being a god. It's being a god intruding in Sigil that bothers her.

[questionmark693]

Thanks for all the help with layers guys :)

[CRtwenty]

Each constellation is a separate plane within the larger umbrella of the Plane of Mirrors. It's a very unique place, to say the least. Deadly, too.

Because of the mirror versions of yourself that appear and try to murder you when you enter right? It's been awhile since I read about that place. Don't they take your place and leave the Plane if they kill you?

Also is there any real reason why the Gnolls decided to worship a Demon Prince rather then their actual creator Deity? Seems kind of counter productive to me. Can Yeenoghu even grant spells?

[afroakuma]

Because of the mirror versions of yourself that appear and try to murder you when you enter right? It's been awhile since I read about that place. Don't they take your place and leave the Plane if they kill you?

Oh yes, but they're not the only worry. The secretive masters of the Plane of Mirrors, the nerra, are inscrutable and dangerous.


Also is there any real reason why the Gnolls decided to worship a Demon Prince rather then their actual creator Deity? Seems kind of counter productive to me. Can Yeenoghu even grant spells?

Gorellik, their creator deity, taught the gnolls nothing of their creation; his dogma basically boiled down to "power is the only thing to respect." So the gnolls did. Actually, they worshiped the gods of the giants before Yeenoghu came to them offering the powers of the Abyss, which impressed them enough to transfer their faith to the demon prince.

Yeenoghu can grant spells through his agency as a demon prince. His domains include Bestial, Chaos, Demonic and Evil. Nice guy. :smallwink:

[Sgt. Cookie]

Is there ANY situation at all in which a god would be allowed to enter Sigil?

[Lord_Gareth]

Is there anyone with a current interest in restarting the war between Law and Chaos?

[afroakuma]

Is there ANY situation at all in which a god would be allowed to enter Sigil?

There is. It's extremely narrow, though. The Lady would allow no more than a few demigods into the city for the sole purpose of dislodging something, like Vecna, which was outside her ability to eject without harming the multiverse, and only if other options had been exhausted, and only if the multiverse had literally minutes left to exist unless she took action. (She would then, of course, throw them right back out).


Is there anyone with a current interest in restarting the war between Law and Chaos?

The Queen of Chaos is still interested, but until she can recover her forces and her general she won't be going anywhere.

[Lord_Gareth]

The Queen of Chaos is still interested, but until she can recover her forces and her general she won't be going anywhere.

I remember before that you said something about how the Queen already possesses one part of the Rod of Seven Parts, but are there any OTHER artifacts or powers capable of freeing the Wolf-Spider?

[afroakuma]

I remember before that you said something about how the Queen already possesses one part of the Rod of Seven Parts, but are there any OTHER artifacts or powers capable of freeing the Wolf-Spider?

In canon? Nothing's been specified. It's likely the only solution available to her, at any rate.

[Cirrylius]

Then there's rumours that she also kills off any faction that gets too large and that this may be the cause behind a wave of inexplicable deaths in the Indeps, but, well, rumours.

I beliiiiiieve this particular rumor is confirmed in one of the PS modules or adventures, possibly Eternal Boundary, but until I remember where I saw it I can't verify it.

[Fable Wright]

There is. It's extremely narrow, though. The Lady would allow no more than a few demigods into the city for the sole purpose of dislodging something, like Vecna, which was outside her ability to eject without harming the multiverse, and only if other options had been exhausted, and only if the multiverse had literally minutes left to exist unless she took action. (She would then, of course, throw them right back out).

Why was Vecna's stay on Sigil threatening the existence of the multiverse? Why couldn't the Lady eject him without harming the Multiverse? And are there any other artifacts like the focrux out there that can limit the Lady's omniscience or near omnipotence?

[Eldan]

Why was Vecna's stay on Sigil threatening the existence of the multiverse? Why couldn't the Lady eject him without harming the Multiverse? And are there any other artifacts like the focrux out there that can limit the Lady's omniscience or near omnipotence?

The answers to those three questions are:
"Plot"
"Fiat"
"Maybe".

[AuraTwilight]

Or, to give more helpful answers, Vecna was basically pulling off the biggest spell ever, and by the time he got to Sigil it was already under way and reality was restructuring to his will. Handling the Vecna situation poorly would've damaged the multiverse because it was becoming his brain.

[Lord_Gareth]

How would the various Lawful exemplars respond to a request or spell (like Planar Ally or Planar Binding) asking for their aid in the creation of a law, contract, or other agreement?

[enderlord99]

The answers to those three questions are:
"Plot"
"Fiat"
"Maybe"Probably not, and if there are, you can't have/use them.

FTFY. Seriously.

[Rob Roy]

FTFY. Seriously.

Wasn't the Harbinger House closed to her?

[enderlord99]

Wasn't the Harbinger House closed to her?

Upon a cursory googling, the focrux is what caused that, and it was already mentioned in the original question, so it shouldn't count.

[ShadowFireLance]

Here's a good one me and my friends thought up:

How would the Multiverse react, If a Unknown race, of immense power, and almost infinite number, suddenly appeared, and began total annihilation of all life, unlife, and animated beings?
They appear to be fully immune to deific powers that would remove them.

[Lord_Gareth]

Here's a good one me and my friends thought up:

How would the Multiverse react, If a Unknown race, of immense power, and almost infinite number, suddenly appeared, and began total annihilation of all life, unlife, and animated beings?
They appear to be fully immune to deific powers that would remove them.

You mean like how the Mind Flayers showed up?

[Eldan]

The answer seems to be "(almost) everyone unites against the threat until it is removed". At least that happend with the Illithids.

[enderlord99]

You mean like how the Mind Flayers showed up?

I think he does, yes.:smallamused:

[Rob Roy]

Here's a good one me and my friends thought up:

How would the Multiverse react, If a Unknown race, of immense power, and almost infinite number, suddenly appeared, and began total annihilation of all life, unlife, and animated beings?
They appear to be fully immune to deific powers that would remove them.

Blood War comes to a temporary truce. Hopefully the Unkown race succumbs to internal collapse before the armies of the lower planes get too involved though, because all sorts of things* could happen in the aftermath of the war if the war dragged on for a while.

*Needless to say, none of those things are good for basically any living thing that aren't from the terrible half of the Great Wheel.

[afroakuma]

Why was Vecna's stay on Sigil threatening the existence of the multiverse?

Sigil is the fulcrum of the multiverse. Divine energy from such a potent source as a full-fledged god disrupts it, with ramifications on the rest of the multiverse. It's why Vecna tried this plan in the first place. He intended to entrench himself in the locus of the multiverse's shattering and use his position to become supreme deity of the new order.


Why couldn't the Lady eject him without harming the Multiverse?

Vecna is 100% inside Sigil and her normal favored method of ejecting deities is being countered with a sizeable amount of his own divine power. To go any further would involve her unleashing a level of power that is capable of harming the multiverse; in the state it was in at the time, roughly 3-12 days after Vecna's arrival in Sigil, her doing so would have been more damaging than letting in a few demigods.

In any event, the Lady of Pain has since closed the loophole through which Vecna entered Sigil. It won't work again.


And are there any other artifacts like the focrux out there that can limit the Lady's omniscience or near omnipotence?

None are known, and it's not likely any exist. Technically, the focrux itself doesn't really qualify. The properties it has are derived from its presence in Harbinger House, and that eldritch location is unique in every way. The focrux is rather unique thing, all told, and it requires a very singular philosophical belief to bring into existence. That's not easy to divide or replicate and impossible to fake.


How would the various Lawful exemplars respond to a request or spell (like Planar Ally or Planar Binding) asking for their aid in the creation of a law, contract, or other agreement?

Well, since the spells allow you to request service, they'll probably be okay with it provided they're compensated. An archon might be annoyed at you for wasting the time of a soldier of Good for paralegal duty and a baatezu will probably attempt to subtly screw you over at least once, but it's certainly within their ability to do as a task. An archon will quibble over the moral underpinnings of the legality in question, a modron will overcomplicate it and stuff it full of minutiae and a baatezu will riddle it with fine print, legalese and the occasional oblique reference to how much it now owns your soul. Just hire the paralegal. :smalltongue:

[Lord_Gareth]

Are there any significant settlements of (still-living) mortals on the Planes?

[CRtwenty]

Are there any significant settlements of (still-living) mortals on the Planes?

Pretty much every Plane has settlements of living beings unless it's actively hostile to life (like the Negative Energy Plane). Sigil is of course the largest, but any major Planar city is going to be full of mortals. I mean even Dis has mortals visiting it regularly.

[Eldan]

Sigil, of course. All sixteen gate towns. The corresponding towns on the outer planes. A handful of settlements in the outlands.

[Mystify]

I've seen you make references to the original conflict as that between law and chaos, but now it is primarily occurring as good vs. evil. If that is the case, why is the major conflict the blood war, which is occurring across the law/chaos axis?

[CRtwenty]

I've seen you make references to the original conflict as that between law and chaos, but now it is primarily occurring as good vs. evil. If that is the case, why is the major conflict the blood war, which is occurring across the law/chaos axis?

Cause Fiends gonna Fiend.

Mostly it's because the whole Law vs. Chaos war never ended for the Fiends, they've been at each others throats ever since the initial war happened, even though the Good and Neutral sides have long since stopped most of their hostilities.

Also because all the Fiends profit from the unending conflict. Asmodeus has an easy way to get rid of underperforming Devils ("off to the front lines with you!") and a great way to train his army, the Demons have an infinite supply of things to rip and tear for fun, and the Daemons are able to be War Profiteers in the multiverses most lucrative conflict.

[VariSami]

This has probably been pointed out a limitless amount of times but I would appreciate an expert opinion:

Seeing as how the Planes are infinite as well as the amount of Prime worlds is infinite, how much overlap is there with minuscule differences? For example, let us contend with the canon that Eberron is not a part of the Great Wheel (although I do not). Since the all possibilities should logically be covered by an actual infinity, should there still be "Eberron-that-is-part-of-tGW", as well as a limitless supply of worlds "almost-like-Eberron"? Of course this applies to Athas, Faerün, Oerth, and all other ever conceived and even those not conceived worlds.

The question should logically apply to the Planes other than the Material, of course, but I am relatively sure that unlike the Materials, the rest of the Planes were clearly ill-conceived in being called infinite. Of course I would like to be proven wrong but unless the existence of logical singularities, or a limit to divine power (the limited amount of followers does not suffice for they are limitless) is somehow proven as a part of planar lore, there should actually be an infinite amount of each deity, probably with minor adjustments.

I know this takes for granted that all possible worlds would at some level co-exist as a part of the planar infinity instead of being separated, but it also seems to follow from the admission of "infinity" into the lore.

[123456789blaaa]

Spoilering this since it's taking up the thread a bit:



<snip>
People. Undead are not people. You can't apply living human mentality to even other humanoids per se, much less abominable twisted mockeries of life. The issue here is that... how can I put this... It's like seeking the approval of cattle when you run Big Dead Cow's 100% Beef Burger Joint (We Kill Cows And Eat 'Em And Hey So Should You!)

Why do farmers name their pigs? After all, they're eventually just going to kill and eat them so why bother being affectionate and petting them and giving them names? And remember that pigs aren't even sapient. They're just animals. Let us also not forget that pigs (and other farm animals) are practically speaking helpless against humans. This is not neccecarily true for living creatures and unliving creatures.

What I'm trying to say is that I think there are plenty of reasons why I think undead-even Evil undead- wouldn't necessarily look at living creatures as nothing but food.

And of course we mustn't forget that there are sapient undead that don't eat living creatures.


Not so long ago, Kyuss was incapable of granting spells above 4th level. He's still incapable of generating lots of artifacts, magic items, desecrated regions, etc. etc. etc. and so you're better off with a stronger god who has more followers.

Desecrated regions? I can't think of what you mean by that except by areas effected by the desecrate spell-which any cleric of a certain level could cast. :smallconfused:

Anyways I understand your point. As I said before, I don't actually disagree with you.


Not a selling point. It's D&D, there's prophetic gobbledygook everywhere. Not to mention his is "a world without food."

Right but Kyuss's prophecies actually do come to pass if he manages to get free. The campaign is pretty clear: if the PC's don't stop him, he wins. Of course, people wouldn't really notice this before that happened...most of my questions were actually hypothetically about if he had succeeded. That kind of got lost during the back-and-forth though. Whatevs.

As for a "world without food", I'm not sure that's quite accurate. After all, Kyuss needs at least some living creatures to create more undead right? I see no reason why some of those could not be killed by feeding before being reanimated.


I can think of no better way to respond than this:

The apocalypse of Kyuss isn't going to destroy the world though. It'l still be there, just changed so I don't see how that quote applies.


When he wins. Supposedly. Assuming he doesn't notice his terrible vulnerability and run off to the Lower Planes immediately. Hard to market yourself on a potential feature when you're a young upstart.

Terrible vulnerability?


<snip>
I said he was one of the foremost tanar'ri contenders, not that he would win.


The big guns of tanar'ri-kind are Baphomet, Fraz-Urb'Luu and Yeenoghu

You didn't say that he would win but when someone says a being is one of the "big guns" I get the impression they're talking about someone exceptionally powerful amongst the other "guns".


You could have said the same of Orcus not so long ago. Fraz-Urb'luu has always been a quiet menace and one of the more notable tanar'ri lords.

Who did you think I was going to tap? Kostchtchie? Juiblex? The number of truly significant demon lords who would leap at the chance to fill the power vacuum is not as great as one would imagine.
<snip>


I suppose I thought (in a vague sense) of Demon Lords that have been doing lots of stuff and attempting lots of ambitious plans. I'd have thought they'd jump at the chance. Kostchtchie sounds like one yeah. Not really Juiblex since he doesn't really seem like the ambitious type (nor is he that powerful).

There have been a few cases of celestials falling, have there been any recorded cases of fiends being redeemed?

Do you know of any children between the Archdevils and Demon Lords? How would such a child be treated if it existed?

Have there been any children between Good and Evil Powers in the planes? How would such a child be treated if it existed?

Which Powers of the planes have a particular affinity with adventurers (for example, a demon lord or god of adventurers)?.

Why is it common in Faerun for peasants to mutter quick prayers to evil deities (for example, a sailor praying to Umberlee for his ship to be spared from her wrath) but not for peasants to do the same to Demon Lords and Archdevils? After all, many evil gods are just as bad as the Fiendish Powers right (I know I'm missing something here)?

What is the single weakest Power in all the planes?

It seems to me that Yeenoghu is slowly losing more and more power. Is this true? If it is, then which being do you think the gnolls would transfer their worship to if he were to die?

Does Dagon have any children? If so, who?

(apologies if any of this is misspelled or incoherent. I'm a little tired right now).

[afroakuma]

Wasn't the Harbinger House closed to her?

Closed? No; rather, she was unable to pinpoint it due to the extreme antiscrying powers of the focrux and its location within Harbinger House. Had she happened across the House and decided to poke around inside, she would have been able to; her dabus have been to the House before to drop off barmies, so on at least one level she knows about it. The effect of the focrux occluding a divine ascension from her senses has been compared to hearing a mosquito buzzing but being unable to see it. In short: it just bugged her.


I've seen you make references to the original conflict as that between law and chaos, but now it is primarily occurring as good vs. evil. If that is the case, why is the major conflict the blood war, which is occurring across the law/chaos axis?

The most obvious battle on the Outer Planes is the Blood War; however, the War of Law and Chaos was far more extensive, originally spanning the Inner Planes, Outer Planes and every other plane that dared become relevant during its prosecution. The Blood War is a petty thing, a battle of great futility that the true powers on either side stay largely uninvolved in. The War of Law and Chaos featured the major players quite prominently; only a few, such as Dagon, stayed out of it. It was massive, transformative, epochal and had wide-ranging ramifications. Archons allied with devils; demons with eladrins. Good and Evil fought alongside one another for what were then considered more fundamental cosmic principles.

The current clash between Good and Evil does not play out directly on the Outer Planes, but instead echoes across the multiverse. On the Prime Material Plane, on the Inner Planes, wherever lines are drawn, the factions are almost always black and white, not blue and orange. Good and Evil have become the "polarities" of existence, and the new war manifests across a thousand thousand battlefields in a thousand thousand ways.


Seeing as how the Planes are infinite as well as the amount of Prime worlds is infinite, how much overlap is there with minuscule differences?

Clarify?


As I said before, I don't actually disagree with you.

So are you just playing devil's advocate now? I really don't understand why, if there's nothing to debate, you continue debating. If you have a position to stand on, take the stand and we'll discuss it. If not, leave it be.

Now then, to the rest:


You didn't say that he would win but when someone says a being is one of the "big guns" I get the impression they're talking about someone exceptionally powerful amongst the other "guns".

He is. Aldinach, Arziel, Barbu, Ixinix, Laraie, Lascer, Oublivae, Siragle, Turaglas... these are "guns." Heard of many? There are loads more like them.

The top echelons of demonkind have always involved the following individuals (save on the rare occasions where one of them has been nonexistent): Baphomet, Dagon, Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb'luu, Graz'zt, Juiblex, Kostchtchie, Lolth, Malcanthet, Obox-ob, Orcus, Pale Night, Pazuzu, Yeenoghu and Zuggtmoy. Of these, Dagon and Pale Night have no interest in taking power; Juiblex and Zuggtmoy are too busy fighting one another and make up the lowest tier of power among the "big guns;" Malcanthet and Pazuzu prefer their forms of indirect power and control; Lolth is a goddess and no longer bothers with day-to-day demonic politics; Demogorgon, Graz'zt and Orcus are the ones you subtracted from the equation; and Kostchtchie is a massive idiot who would rather be considered a frost giant than a demon. Seriously.

That leaves Baphomet, Fraz-Urb'luu, Obox-ob and Yeenoghu. Obox-ob is an obyrith, so the remaining three constitute the "big guns" of the tanar'ri who are interested in throwing down for the top jobs.


I suppose I thought (in a vague sense) of Demon Lords that have been doing lots of stuff and attempting lots of ambitious plans. I'd have thought they'd jump at the chance. Kostchtchie sounds like one yeah.

Immensely no. No title would displease him more than Prince of Demons (well, maybe Bunny Rabbit Supreme, but...)


There have been a few cases of celestials falling, have there been any recorded cases of fiends being redeemed?

A few. I don't like to talk about it. It summons the Gareth. :smalleek:


Do you know of any children between the Archdevils and Demon Lords?

Zero.


How would such a child be treated if it existed?

Something would kill it or kidnap it very fast. That something would almost certainly be a yugoloth.


Have there been any children between Good and Evil Powers in the planes?

Children, possibly. Romances? Definitely.

I'm not counting the children of Corellon and Lolth because she wasn't evil back then.


How would such a child be treated if it existed?

Same as any other god-child, really; they'd have to land a niche for themselves, and would probably draw largely from one parent to do so. Children of two gods are actually rather rare in the modern planar age. Well, proper children at any rate.


Which Powers of the planes have a particular affinity with adventurers (for example, a demon lord or god of adventurers)?.

Typically you're looking at gods of travel and fortune; Tymora thrives on the worship of adventurers, while gods like Celestian shelter the reckless fools who step outside the realms of men.


Why is it common in Faerun for peasants to mutter quick prayers to evil deities (for example, a sailor praying to Umberlee for his ship to be spared from her wrath) but not for peasants to do the same to Demon Lords and Archdevils? After all, many evil gods are just as bad as the Fiendish Powers right (I know I'm missing something here)?

It's a very Grecian notion, that; in the main, though, it has to do with the difference between gods and demons. A god is fundamentally the master of something in the world; notionally, you can venerate or appease them, trading recognition of their domain for a bit of their mercy.

A fiend is something else altogether. Fiends are the visitation of unnatural horrors. Where a god like Talos is just going to throw a storm at you, or Umberlee the waves, or Auril the biting winds, archdevils and demon lords are horrors whose powers are an intrusion into nature. Their role is to corrupt, attaint and destroy, and one does not casually invite the attentions of such a being. Essentially, it's the difference between "A storm is rolling in. Talos must be angry again" and "Belial devours small children who don't go to bed on time!" The role of one is to embody something that plays a role in life; the role of the other is as a boogeyman.


What is the single weakest Power in all the planes?

Impossible to say, really. You could measure by many factors and still not come up with one answer.


It seems to me that Yeenoghu is slowly losing more and more power. Is this true?

His power has eroded somewhat due to the loss of his vassal Doresain, but he's not done yet and is likely planning his resurgence. He's still quite powerful.


If it is, then which being do you think the gnolls would transfer their worship to if he were to die?

Whoever can impress them next. Vaprak's probably closest.


Does Dagon have any children?

Nope.

By the way, you were looking for this earlier. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301271)

[VariSami]

Clarify?
Well, I thought I did. But essentially it is about modal logic and its relationship with the planar cosmology. When speaking of "possible worlds" in modal logic, it is admitted that there is an infinite amount of them, but only one is actual. However, the planar cosmology posits that there is an infinite amount of actual worlds, and their infinite amount logically entails that they span all logical possibilities.

When speaking of all logical possibilities, it includes a lot of overlap in the way I specified earlier using Eberron as an example. On the level of worlds, even the smallest change of detail would make it a different world. On the level of individuals residing in that world, if the change does not directly affect them, they will also have a limitless supply of identical doppelgängers on other worlds not-quite-like-their-own. For example, there is King Boranel of Eberron-without-Warforged, King Boranel of Eberron-with-one-less-hair-in-Vol's-head (than the "root" world which is posited to actually remain outside of the Great Wheel although its identical copy probably exists within the Great Wheel system as well), and so on.

Basically my question is whether or not such problems regarding the infinity of the Planes as well as the infinity of the Material Worlds has been addressed somehow.

[Mystify]

their infinite amount logically entails that they span all logical possibilities.

Infinite does not necessarily imply it is all inclusive. There are an infinite number of numbers between 0 and 1, but none of them are 2. There are an infinite number of irrational numbers, and none of them are 2 either.

[afroakuma]

One less thing I need to say. :smalltongue:

More questions for the question god!

[Fable Wright]

Which fiends have been redeemed, and how?

Also, there are a few demiplanes out there that are difficult to enter/exit at times, such as the eerie ethreal place you mentioned, Ravenloft, and the Dreamheart. Do you have a list of such demiplanes that are difficult to enter/exit?

[Lord_Gareth]

Which fiends have been redeemed, and how?

Also, there are a few demiplanes out there that are difficult to enter/exit at times, such as the eerie ethreal place you mentioned, Ravenloft, and the Dreamheart. Do you have a list of such demiplanes that are difficult to enter/exit?

Famously, Falls-From-Grace, though an upgrade from 'evil' to 'neutral' isn't exactly redemption.

[Coidzor]

What do you mean by no proper children being born of a pair of deities in the modern planar age? Do they keep just making monsters or Atropii (Atropuses?) instead when they have coupled and produced something?

[Arcanist]

In any event, the Lady of Pain has since closed the loophole through which Vecna entered Sigil. It won't work again.

What exactly was the loophole that Vecna exploited? It was performing a Divine Ascension while in Sigil, right? Wasn't he a God prior to entering Sigil?

[Lord_Gareth]

What exactly was the loophole that Vecna exploited? It was performing a Divine Ascension while in Sigil, right? Wasn't he a God prior to entering Sigil?

Yes, and at the same time no. Vecna did a complicated shuffle to escape from Ravenloft by switching divinity with Iuz, but delayed actually acquiring his power until he was within Sigil.

It, ah, it didn't end well.

[Fable Wright]

Assorted questions on Acheron:
1. For spellcasters who wind up dead and go to Acheron, what's to stop them from Planeshifting out?
2. What happens to the soldiers who re-die on Acheron? Do they become petitioners elsewhere, or do they just cease to exist?
3. What would it take for the fighting on Acheron to ever stop?
4. If the fighting on Acheron did stop for an extended period of time, what would happen?

[Lord_Gareth]

If a petitioner chooses to become a more conventional Outsider (such as becoming an exemplar or an angel) do they retain any memories of their mortal life?

[Darkhope]

I breezed through this thread and didn't see the answer I was looking for so sorry if its already been brought up.

In the Trials of Cyric the Mad 5 book series, the last page of the book describes Ao taking a knee to a Luminous Glow and and saying "All is right in the realms, Master."

Anymore info on this "Luminous One"?

My homebrew stuff is cool, at least to me. But was curious if its been elaborated on in other sources. Thanks Afro!

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
So are you just playing devil's advocate now? I really don't understand why, if there's nothing to debate, you continue debating. If you have a position to stand on, take the stand and we'll discuss it. If not, leave it be.

I agree with your general point (that undead would be more likely to worship other gods than Kyuss) but disagree with some of your points which you made in defence of that position (undead seeing the living as cattle, a "world without food").

There's also how some people derailed your other planar questions threads with debates on your answers to their questions. You got pretty angry. I don't want to be the next target of The Afro's wrath :smalleek:. So I wanted to make sure that you knew I wasn't actually disagreeing with your general point.


<snip>
Immensely no. No title would displease him more than Prince of Demons (well, maybe Bunny Rabbit Supreme, but...)

...oh yeah, forgot about the frost giant fetish.


<snip>
Something would kill it or kidnap it very fast. That something would almost certainly be a yugoloth.

Why would it be killed or kidnapped? And why would the thing that did so almost certainly be a yugoloth?



Children, possibly. Romances? Definitely.

I'm not counting the children of Corellon and Lolth because she wasn't evil back then.

Could you give some examples?



<snip>
Typically you're looking at gods of travel and fortune; Tymora thrives on the worship of adventurers, while gods like Celestian shelter the reckless fools who step outside the realms of men.

You know I actually went looking around after I asked that question and it turns out there is actually a Demon Lord of Adventurers: Anarazel The Daring Darkness. He's only mentioned by name in the MM2 (1983) on page 35 though.



<snip>
By the way, you were looking for this earlier. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301271)

So...beautiful :smalleek:. I actually feel kind of guilty what with getting work of this quality for free. Comments in the thread will be made in a bit.

EDIT: You know it occurs to me that Ugudenk kinds of steps on Obox-obs toes a bit. Worms are vermin after all.

[Lord Haart]

1. For spellcasters who wind up dead and go to Acheron, what's to stop them from Planeshifting out?
2. What happens to the soldiers who re-die on Acheron? Do they become petitioners elsewhere, or do they just cease to exist?

1. If i remember correctly, petitioners (which is what such a spellcaster will become) lose their memories, along with all experience and class memories. Tabula rasa. However, if a petitioner is planeshifted out of his native plane by whatever reason, you have a petitioner outside of his native plane, nothing less, nothing more. Now whether he'd want to return is a question better suited for Afroakuma.
2. Their essence is absorbed into the plane itself.

[Fable Wright]

1. If i remember correctly, petitioners (which is what such a spellcaster will become) lose their memories, along with all experience and class memories. Tabula rasa. However, if a petitioner is planeshifted out of his native plane by whatever reason, you have a petitioner outside of his native plane, nothing less, nothing more. Now whether he'd want to return is a question better suited for Afroakuma.
2. Their essence is absorbed into the plane itself.

IIRC, the people fighting on Acheron aren't petitioners, but the actual souls with all their experience. Afroakuma's probably about to correct me on that, though.

[Pokonic]

Who could be said to be the most powerful individual lich in any published modal or book, sans Vecna? It seems that every setting has one or two that stands out, but it would be interesting to see who's the lichiest of them all, per say.

[Lord_Gareth]

Who could be said to be the most powerful individual lich in any published modal or book, sans Vecna? It seems that every setting has one or two that stands out, but it would be interesting to see who's the lichiest of them all, per say.

Well, there is the God of Liches (hint: it's not Vecna).

[Larkas]

Well, there is the God of Liches (hint: it's not Vecna).

There is also Azalin Rex, the other Ravenloft lich.

[Lord_Gareth]

There is also Azalin Rex, the other Ravenloft lich.

Yes, but his curse is to be Less Lichy forever - he can never learn a new spell.

[Lord Haart]

IIRC, the people fighting on Acheron aren't petitioners, but the actual souls with all their experience.Ah. As far as i understand, they didn't exactly die to get here, either. It goes more in line of "Guys, we're cornered and the siege goes on for seven months, but our wizard says he can beam us all up to somewhere with ore mines and sawmills and weak neutral armies, which we can easily crush and rebuild our own forces. *twenty years later* Whaddyamean, what are we doing here? Fighting with goblins, necromancers and elven renegades over territory and mines, of course! Whaddyamean, what's next? There are six maps to conquer on this cube, and all of them come with underground levels! Whaddyamean, what for? Look up, kiddo. Do ya see the devils on this big hot cube? Eighteen years ago, we were cornered enough to ask 'em for some help. Been cleaning the cubes for them ever since. At least they allowed us to enslave the gremlins, so we don't lack in cheap frontline meat." But anyway, let's hear Afroakuma rather than me. Hope he gives a good lecture rather than a short reply, since Acheron interests me too. It's especially interesting how it seems to parallel Ysgard, its diametral opposite.

P. S. Yes, lord Gareth, your post is great and caused my own interest. The questions currently discussed are about more technical workings of the plane.

[Lord_Gareth]

Ah. As far as i understand, they didn't exactly die to get here, either. It goes more in line of "Guys, we're cornered and the siege goes on for seven months, but our wizard says he can beam us all up to somewhere with ore mines and sawmills and weak neutral armies, which we can easily crush and rebuild our own forces. *twenty years later* Whaddyamean, what are we doing here? Fighting with goblins, necromancers and elven renegades over territory and mines, of course! Whaddyamean, what's next? There are six maps to conquer on this cube, and all of them come with underground levels! Whaddyamean, what for? Look up, kiddo. Do ya see the devils on this big hot cube? Eighteen years ago, we were cornered enough to ask 'em for some help. Been cleaning the cubes for them ever since. At least they allowed us to enslave the gremlins, so we don't lack in cheap frontline meat." But anyway, let's hear Afroakuma rather than me. Hope he gives a good lecture rather than a short reply, since Acheron interests me too.


Acheron has no architects. None of the Outer Planes do. Look, if you don't like canon, then you don't like canon (Asmodeus only knows that I hate quite a bit of it) but stop acting like just because the canon you're learning here is something you dislike it must be wrong and non-canon.

Yes, Acheron looks a little Chaotic on the outside. You know what, from the outside Carceri looks a little lawful. But Acheron isn't chaotic. Acheron is battle without resolution, law without harmony, order without structure, misery without hope, death without glory, unity without individuality. Acheron is not a plane that hates you; indeed, it is Acheron's utter indifference to you that eventually kills you. Acheron is the grinding monotony of hopelessness, and it is the weary horror of cynicism so great that it consumes morality. The sergeant who grows weary of fighting corruption and embraces bribery goes to Acheron; the office drone who takes out his misery on others by providing them barriers to actual help goes to Acheron. It is the punishment for which there was no crime, the penalty without a violation, the monolithic crushing indifference of Law with no moral compass, of conflict without belief, of tyranny without vanity.

Acheron doesn't hate you.

It wants you to die anyway.

There you go

[Urpriest]

You've probably answered this before, but what is the most powerful non-omnipotent being on the planes? What about the most powerful being who isn't detached, that is, who has particular desires and goals with regard to the rest of the multiverse?

[afroakuma]

Which fiends have been redeemed, and how?

Nobody particularly relevant.


Also, there are a few demiplanes out there that are difficult to enter/exit at times, such as the eerie ethreal place you mentioned, Ravenloft, and the Dreamheart. Do you have a list of such demiplanes that are difficult to enter/exit?

It would take me some time to compile; that's a pretty broad criterion.


What do you mean by no proper children being born of a pair of deities in the modern planar age? Do they keep just making monsters or Atropii (Atropuses?) instead when they have coupled and produced something?

Basically, yes. We have no record of the most recent fullblood divine child; neither do we have a record of the most recent abomination. I'm not discounting the possibility of a recent by-blow in order to leave open the possibility of a new abomination.


What exactly was the loophole that Vecna exploited? It was performing a Divine Ascension while in Sigil, right? Wasn't he a God prior to entering Sigil?

It was a massive confluence of cheaty factors, but the most fundamental was the stolen divinity blossom trick. Essentially, he took his almost-divine self, triggered the magic to absorb Iuz's divinity, catapulted himself out of Ravenloft on that waxing godhood and entered Sigil right before the big kaboom. When he landed in Sigil, he was a greater deity with no planar links outside of the City of Doors. 100% inside the Cage.


Assorted questions on Acheron:
1. For spellcasters who wind up dead and go to Acheron, what's to stop them from Planeshifting out?

Petitioners who die off-plane plunge into oblivion. That's what's known as a bad thing. Fortunately, petitioners as a general rule can neither leave nor be forced to leave (see the extraordinary ability Planar Commitment).


2. What happens to the soldiers who re-die on Acheron? Do they become petitioners elsewhere, or do they just cease to exist?

They fuse with the plane (usually) or their deity (if within reach). Acheron has no mercy or glory for you. Fall and vanish.


3. What would it take for the fighting on Acheron to ever stop?

It's an infinite plane with a domino effect. As long as Acheron is Acheron, the fighting will never stop.


4. If the fighting on Acheron did stop for an extended period of time, what would happen?

...they'd all be really antsy to start fighting again?


If a petitioner chooses to become a more conventional Outsider (such as becoming an exemplar or an angel) do they retain any memories of their mortal life?

Petitioners retain very little of their mortal memories in the first place. Those that become full outsiders may retain echoes or vestiges of some quality from their time as a mortal. Memory? Almost never happens.


I breezed through this thread and didn't see the answer I was looking for so sorry if its already been brought up.

In the Trials of Cyric the Mad 5 book series, the last page of the book describes Ao taking a knee to a Luminous Glow and and saying "All is right in the realms, Master."

Anymore info on this "Luminous One"?

Nope. The whole idea was... well, I'll stay within the bounds of forum rules and call it a nod to the concept of a DM. Later sources state that Ao serves none, which leads me to present the following two theories:

I. Ao is not Ao
...or rather, Ao as seen in the novels is but a messenger of the real Ao, perceivable only as a luminous being so far beyond the gods that it does not directly contact them.

II. Ao has a teacher
Ao is a comparatively young overpower of a comparatively young sphere, one that has historically been extremely porous with regard to immigrants both mortal and divine. If the overpowers collectively seek to maintain a balance across the Material Plane or represent a general principle of balance in the highly faith-enriched spheres they control, then it is possible that "young" Ao was being guided in the ways of protecting the Balance by a peer, a fellow overpower. This would be another being such as the High God or the nameless overpower of Oerth.


I agree with your general point (that undead would be more likely to worship other gods than Kyuss) but disagree with some of your points which you made in defence of that position (undead seeing the living as cattle, a "world without food").

I have limited time to make an argument when I must address a wall of questions. I make the most expedient ones where possible.


There's also how some people derailed your other planar questions threads with debates on your answers to their questions. You got pretty angry. I don't want to be the next target of The Afro's wrath :smalleek:. So I wanted to make sure that you knew I wasn't actually disagreeing with your general point.

Yeah, that was unclear. Also I'm always angry, don't let it get to you.


Why would it be killed or kidnapped? And why would the thing that did so almost certainly be a yugoloth?

It's something unusual that crosses lines. On the Lower Planes, that means a dissectin'. Either that or a strong desire to control whatever it is. So, killed or kidnapped. As the force in the middle of the Blood War, not to mention the ones who claim to control the whole thing, the yugoloths have the most incentive to seize such a being with all haste for just such a purpose.


Could you give some examples?

If I could have I would have. "Possibly" isn't "possibly" if there's a definite answer.

I'll answer more questions after the next post; not permitted to double-post and it's getting very long.

[Larkas]

I'm asking this more to let you post again, so, uh... Dark Sun. We know of the Gray, we know of the Black and we know of the Hollow. Are these things planes of some sort? Planar features? What the heck are they? Does the Gray make the Crystal Sphere "invisible" to the Powers? After all, we know of at least one attempt from an individual to breach it (seeking to become a god in the process), but that was from the inside. Were there any attempts to breach it from the outside?

Lastly, a non-canon question here: could the Black be equated to the Plane of Shadows, and the Hollow to the Far Realm?

[CRtwenty]

Alright. What do we know about the origins of the Princes of Elemental Evil? Were they Elder Elementals that got corrupted by Tharizdun or something? Just Elementals that turned evil for the hell of it?

Did they do anything in 3e? I know Imix got mentioned in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil but I don't think the others appeared.

[afroakuma]

Who could be said to be the most powerful individual lich in any published modal or book, sans Vecna? It seems that every setting has one or two that stands out, but it would be interesting to see who's the lichiest of them all, per say.

I'm going to assume we're excluding all lich gods, ruling out Mellifleur, Velsharoon, Kiaransalee and Vol, among others. The next rung, then, would be liches who are nearly gods, and that means Vlaakith CLVII, the Lich-Queen of the Githyanki.

Let's exclude her too. Stupid Vlaakith. Stop cheating. Go away.

Moving away from the god-liches, we next land at demilichdom, the transcendence that awaits the most powerful liches. The greatest of their kind is without a doubt Acererak, the powerful cambion lich who studied under Vecna. As a demilich, he plotted a great work of magic to fuse himself with the Negative Energy Plane and become the living nexus of undeath itself. It didn't pan out, but what a scheme! Even in his destruction, Acererak held on to become a vestige. There have been many demiliches and there will be many more, but none can approach the sheer audacity of Acererak.

But maybe that's cheating too. Go away, floaty skulls. We want real liches. Nothing demi.

So now we get to the, ah, "mortal" liches. Above most of the liches of the Forgotten Realms, such as Larloch, Sammaster and the powerful zulkir of necromancy Szass Tam, we have Aumvor the Undying, an ancient master lich from the time of Netheril. Aumvor is old - he lived in the era before Karsus' Folly and has survived the deaths of two goddesses of magic. He combines the wicked powers of an archmage necromancer with the vast expertise of an epic Netherese arcanist. His major field of arcane specialization is variation, while he minors in invention.

Aumvor's closest competition and potential rival would be Azalin Rex, a prisoner of Ravenloft whose vast powers nearly sundered the Demiplane of Dread's prisons for good. His latest experiments have delved into demilichdom, however, and have proven a dismal failure.


You've probably answered this before, but what is the most powerful non-omnipotent being on the planes?

Depends how we're defining "non-omnipotent." The Lady of Pain isn't omnipotent; she just packs power where it counts and is hilariously unchallengable.


What about the most powerful being who isn't detached, that is, who has particular desires and goals with regard to the rest of the multiverse?

It's very tricky to stratify power like this. I'm going to be very specific about the following answer: the most powerful being of the current multiverse and no other who is neither a power (i.e. a god) nor unbiased toward the present and future state of the multiverse and is presently active within this multiverse is Asmodeus. He flies a whole plane!

The fact that I have to be that specific should emphasize just how difficult a question it is to cover. Are there things in the multiverse that could take him to town? Certainly. Comes down to how we define "power" at that point, though.


I'm asking this more to let you post again, so, uh... Dark Sun. We know of the Gray, we know of the Black and we know of the Hollow. Are these things planes of some sort? Planar features? What the heck are they?

The Gray is a buffer zone that deadens Athas's links to the Astral and Ethereal Planes. It's practically impenetrable on the Astral "side" and quite thick on the Ethereal "side." The Gray entraps all that dares pass into it, and escape is difficult.

The Black is like the Plane of Shadow; coexistent with the Material Plane, it can only be accessed through shadows. It does not, however, allow for travel beyond Athas, as far as is known, nor does it touch on the Gray.

The Hollow is a natural non-plane coterminous to (often described as "underneath") the Black. Picture it as an envelope; it's "flat" when empty, and when something is within it, it reshapes to accommodate its contents. The Hollow is only ever as big as that which is within the Hollow.


Does the Gray make the Crystal Sphere "invisible" to the Powers?

Sort of. It interferes with souls and faith, which makes the Crimson Sphere "invisible" to them in the same way that a small neighborhood bookstore is "invisible" to Amazon.


After all, we know of at least one attempt from an individual to breach it (seeking to become a god in the process), but that was from the inside. Were there any attempts to breach it from the outside?

Planewalkers can get through the Gray (it's not easy, it's not safe, but it's doable) from both sides along the Ethereal border. Similarly, it's theoretically possible to fly a spelljammer into the Crimson Sphere, just challenging and horribly, horribly dangerous. Also you'll never return. Gith legend holds that this is how they arrived on Athas, and that they could not cause their vessels to return them to the skies.


Alright. What do we know about the origins of the Princes of Elemental Evil? Were they Elder Elementals that got corrupted by Tharizdun or something? Just Elementals that turned evil for the hell of it?

We know very little about their origins. We know they have worked with Tharizdun in the past, but he does not appear to have any legitimate role in their creation; rather, he merely claims to be their originator and exploits their collective power for his own goals. It says something about the Princes of Elemental Evil that they so readily buy into his schemes to the point that they are willing to unite with one another for any length of time.


Did they do anything in 3e? I know Imix got mentioned in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil but I don't think the others appeared.

They made an updated reappearance in Dragon #347, but that's largely it.

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
If I could have I would have. "Possibly" isn't "possibly" if there's a definite answer.

I'll answer more questions after the next post; not permitted to double-post and it's getting very long.

Right but you also said that there were definitely romances.

What is the relationship between Malar and Karaan?

Does Tiamat have any children? Can you name some of the most prominent?

Why did Ghaunadaur strike most of his worshippers mad and take away their intellects?

Is there a relationship between Ghaunadaur and Tharizdun? Ghaunadaur is called the Elder Eye...which is reminiscent of Tharizduns epithet of the Elder Elemental Eye. The cult of the Elder Elemental Eye (which was partially created by Tharuzdun) also has ties to Zuggtmoy...who is all about rot and slime and even has a few oozes and slimes as minions. Ghaunadaur dwells in the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze. The first avatar of the Elder Elemental God (which is a mask for Tharizdun) is a huge, mottled, tentacled being some 20' in length, resembling a vast slime/slug cross. This is VERY Ghaunadaur-like. Also, earlier in Monster Mythology, it says, "There are many tales of its (the Elder Elemental God) being worshipped by elder races, who may predate the coming of other gods and races to the Prime Material Plane; these beings were shapechanging, polymorphous slime-beings of genius intelligence and uniformly evil nature (remind you of anything?). Heck, Monster Mythology also outright states (page 60) "Readers of FOR2, The Drow of the Underdark, will find a specific form for this god [the Elder Elemental God] in the Forgotten Realms, that of Ghaunadaur.

It just seems really weird that there are all these relationships between seemingly unrelated things like entropy, the elements, and slime/ooze. Why are these relationships there?

What can you tell us of the relationship between Shothotugg, Prukal, and Demogorgon?

[afroakuma]

Right but you also said that there were definitely romances.

...you want me to talk about romances between gods. Pleeeeease tell me I'm wrong.


What is the relationship between Malar and Karaan?

The Book of Vile Darkness gods generally have no mention outside of that product. If you're planning any more questions in this line, please keep that in mind.

Malar the Beastlord is a power of Faerun. His worship is not known to be observed elsewhere. Karaan is clearly tied to worship on Oerth. The two have no known association. There is partial but incomplete overlap in their bases of worship, with Malar venerated by rangers and hunters and Karaan worshiped by gnolls and bugbears. Malar is primarily a god of the hunt; Karaan is a god of dark instinct. In short: no relationship of note.


Does Tiamat have any children? Can you name some of the most prominent?

Technically, all chromatic dragons are her children. I assume you're looking for more interesting information, though.

Tiamat's oldest child is An-Ur the Wandering Death, a draconic entity that resides within the Deep Ethereal. It is said of him that he can devour demiplanes. Another of her children is the dreaded Dhrakoth the Corrupter, an undead monstrosity birthed in the heart of the Negative Energy Plane. A third child of interest is two-headed Mordukhavar, a fiendish beast said to be the offspring of Tiamat and a member of the Dark Eight.


Why did Ghaunadaur strike most of his worshippers mad and take away their intellects?

Fit of unplanned fury. Lolth is said to be responsible somehow, though accounts differ.


Is there a relationship between Ghaunadaur and Tharizdun?

Ghaunadaur has assumed the aspects of both Tharizdun (as the Elder Elemental Eye) and Juiblex in Faerun; neither is active there, so all the worship (such as there is) passes to him. Beyond that, there is no link.


It just seems really weird that there are all these relationships between seemingly unrelated things like entropy, the elements, and slime/ooze. Why are these relationships there?

Clarify?


What can you tell us of the relationship between Shothotugg, Prukal, and Demogorgon?

It doesn't exist outside of kopru mythology. Almost nothing is known of Prukal besides information gleaned from kopru worship sites; Shothotugg has no contact with the Outer Planes; and Demogorgon's creation was comparatively well-documented and took place at the hands of the Queen of Chaos.

[LOTRfan]

No, you're right. And we want it just as long (but not as badly written) as Twilight. Go. :smallwink:

[Larkas]

Okay, last questions about Dark Sun's cosmology here, and I don't suppose there's a canon answer to it, so I'd love to read your conjectures on the subject.

Could the Gray have been put into place by Athas' overpower? Could Athas' overpower be dead, and that's what cut the links between that world and the outside? Was there ever any hint of that overpower's existing?

[ShadowFireLance]

Just to see if I know correctly, Is there anymore info on An-Ur then what you already stated? I don't think there is, but I would rather ask someone who Probably knows more.

[123456789blaaa]

...you want me to talk about romances between gods. Pleeeeease tell me I'm wrong.

Embrace the shipping Afro, EMBRACE IT! :smallfurious:



<snip>
Clarify?
<snip>


Generally when Powers form relationships to each other, they are related in some way. Lolth wouldn't try to steal the worship of a dead goddess of kittens and puppies right? And yet we have a god of Eternal Darkness, Decay, and Entropy deciding to put on a mask of...an elemental diety? And for some reason he forms a cult with other elementals? And what about Ghaunadaur? Why does HE take on the Tharizduns elemental aspect? How are those two things related? And as I pointed out in my previous post, there are a whole bunch of connections between all of them besides those things. It just seems really strange to me.

You know given how closely Half-Farspawn mirrors the similar Half-Fiend and Half-Celestial, that means that there is a Farspawn category of beings in the Far realm right? Any ideas on what these creatures are like?

Do you have any suggestions for names for a race that is to Half-Farspawn as teiflings are to Half-Fiends? I tried gaining some inspiration from the R'lyehian dictionary but it didn't go to well :smallfrown:. Another homebrewer made a thread for them here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291761). You may want to check it out.

Theoretically you could uncover the shared traits of these creatures through picking through the Half-Farspawn template and comparing it to its sibling templates couldn't you? (I actually made a thread for that here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296408). Forgot about it though...you may want to drop in). Then you could slap this "pseudo-template" onto any monster voila! Instant Farspawn (maybe also use for a "variant half-farspawn" thing?)

There are some references to a realm of darkness and ice in the Far Realm. It seems to be where Father Lymic and probably the Shivhads emerged from (possibly Ghulurak as well?). Could this be a Proxima besides the Amoebic Sea?

Wherever Otiax comes from, it's also probably completely different than the previous two realms no?

I'm wondering if the Farspawn can be split into 3 different races just like the Fiends and Celestials are...perhaps from the Amoebic Sea, Father Lymics realm, and wherever Otiax comes from respectively? I'm just bouncing ideas at you honestly...

You know it would really tickle me if the Farspawn were the "neutral" faction. I know that there are already others but since nobody ever talks about them (at least as much as the others) I can only conclude that they are boring and lame.

[afroakuma]

Okay, last questions about Dark Sun's cosmology here, and I don't suppose there's a canon answer to it, so I'd love to read your conjectures on the subject.

Could the Gray have been put into place by Athas' overpower? Could Athas' overpower be dead, and that's what cut the links between that world and the outside? Was there ever any hint of that overpower's existing?

I believe that the Gray was a result of the disasters and tainted magic that plagued Athas, specifically defiling magic. I'm not near my books at the moment to confirm, but that was my general understanding. It may be a component of the sphere's sealing, but that was not an overpower's act either. It's likely that Athas lacks an overpower and was the fief of a single god or a very few gods who grew complacent.


Just to see if I know correctly, Is there anymore info on An-Ur then what you already stated? I don't think there is, but I would rather ask someone who Probably knows more.

Eh, very marginal amounts more, plus combat statistics. Dragon #260.


Generally when Powers form relationships to each other, they are related in some way. Lolth wouldn't try to steal the worship of a dead goddess of kittens and puppies right?

Was it an eeeeevil petting zoo goddess? :smallbiggrin:


And yet we have a god of Eternal Darkness, Decay, and Entropy deciding to put on a mask of...an elemental diety? And for some reason he forms a cult with other elementals?

Oh. That has nothing to do with his areas of interest (well, nearly) and everything to do with trying to subvert primal forces to forge the conduit needed to release him from his prison.


And what about Ghaunadaur? Why does HE take on the Tharizduns elemental aspect? How are those two things related?

That one doesn't have anything to do with elements, either.

Tharizdun masquerades as the "Elder Elemental Eye," while Ghaunadaur's epithet is "the Elder Eye." The two are both secretive shadowy abominations of malign knowledge, so those trying to worship the one (on Faerun) get the other.


You know given how closely Half-Farspawn mirrors the similar Half-Fiend and Half-Celestial, that means that there is a Farspawn category of beings in the Far realm right? Any ideas on what these creatures are like?

"Farspawn" are like pseudonatural creatures; horrid mockeries of reality. They're not a category; it's just the general name for natives of the Far Realm.


Do you have any suggestions for names for a race that is to Half-Farspawn as teiflings are to Half-Fiends?

Xenozoi, Alloprax, Alloxene, Allosyn, Xenosyn, Xenoprax...


There are some references to a realm of darkness and ice in the Far Realm. It seems to be where Father Lymic and probably the Shivhads emerged from (possibly Ghulurak as well?). Could this be a Proxima besides the Amoebic Sea?

The concept of "cold" in any relatable sense would suggest that it's Proxima, yes.


Wherever Otiax comes from, it's also probably completely different than the previous two realms no?

Otiax may or may not be an entity of the Far Realm... or it may be a thing of the gap between reality and that nevertime.


You know it would really tickle me if the Farspawn were the "neutral" faction. I know that there are already others but since nobody ever talks about them (at least as much as the others) I can only conclude that they are boring and lame.

Pseudonatural creatures and half-farspawn are the boring ones; they're just Far Realm wights fused to reality's contamination. True Farspawn are twisted mockeries at best and utterly maddening on average. One day soon I'll have to write up an expedition post describing the insanity.

[inuyasha]

What happens when the para elementals touch the positive and negative planes? Do para quasi elementals exist?

[Larkas]

I believe that the Gray was a result of the disasters and tainted magic that plagued Athas, specifically defiling magic. I'm not near my books at the moment to confirm, but that was my general understanding. It may be a component of the sphere's sealing, but that was not an overpower's act either. It's likely that Athas lacks an overpower and was the fief of a single god or a very few gods who grew complacent.

I actually think it's the other way around: defiling magic came to be because of the Gray. As the Gray blocks incoming energies from the planes, the only sources of power were those native to the sphere: life and the sun. If the spiritual conduits linked Athas properly to the planes, people wouldn't have to rely on their exhaustible power resources and instead could tap on the infinite power from the planes. Incidentaly, that's why psionics came to be much earlier than magic there: its power comes from the self, not from the environment. At least, that's what I could gather from reading the setting, and I've read it quite some time ago. :smallredface:

Anyways, I thought all Crystal Spheres had an overpower! Is it common for them not to have one? Were do overpowers come from? Can a regular power volunteer to become one? I think all the answers to the above questions will be no, no one knows, and no, respectively, but it doesn't hurt to ask. :smallconfused:

[afroakuma]

What happens when the para elementals touch the positive and negative planes? Do para quasi elementals exist?

The supposed semi-elemental planes arise at those locations; these are esoteric and noncanonical, though, so take it with a grain of salt. Interestingly, "elementals" from these planes are not described, though native creatures are.


I actually think it's the other way around

Like I said, I'd need to be near my books to confirm.


Anyways, I thought all Crystal Spheres had an overpower! Is it common for them not to have one?

Very. They only appear associated with crystal spheres with competitive divine interests. Certainly a great many obscure and deadened spheres show no influence from an overpower where one would expect an adherence to the Balance.

Of course, given how very obscure they are, it's possible that these spheres all have overpowers that are just too uninvolved to bother stepping in for any sort of calamity.


Were do overpowers come from?

Cleveland. Unknown. There may not be a "where." I have a theory, though, as always.


Can a regular power volunteer to become one?

Who would you volunteer to? Again, seeeecret theory.

[Larkas]

Cleveland. Unknown. There may not be a "where." I have a theory, though, as always.



Who would you volunteer to? Again, seeeecret theory.

Clever! :smallamused: Anyways, I'd love to hear your theory, but I won't press the issue if you want it to stay secret. :smallsmile:

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
That one doesn't have anything to do with elements, either.

Tharizdun masquerades as the "Elder Elemental Eye," while Ghaunadaur's epithet is "the Elder Eye." The two are both secretive shadowy abominations of malign knowledge, so those trying to worship the one (on Faerun) get the other.

Ghaunadaur is about malign knowledge?

And there are still all that other stuff between the two like the Elder Elemental Gods slug/slime-like form and the shapeshifting slime creatures that used to worship it.


"Farspawn" are like pseudonatural creatures; horrid mockeries of reality. They're not a category; it's just the general name for natives of the Far Realm.

It seems kind of weird to me that such a diverse bunch of beings-especially beings form the far realm-would all produce the same generic template when mating with a non-far realmy creature.



<snip>
Otiax may or may not be an entity of the Far Realm... or it may be a thing of the gap between reality and that nevertime.

Well his title is "THE KEY TO THE GATE" so whatever's after the gate if you want to go that way.


Pseudonatural creatures and half-farspawn are the boring ones; they're just Far Realm wights fused to reality's contamination. True Farspawn are twisted mockeries at best and utterly maddening on average. One day soon I'll have to write up an expedition post describing the insanity.

I was more talking about the Rilmani

How familiar are you with Pathfinder planar fluff?

[Urpriest]

Do you have any suggestions for names for a race that is to Half-Farspawn as teiflings are to Half-Fiends? I tried gaining some inspiration from the R'lyehian dictionary but it didn't go to well :smallfrown:. Another homebrewer made a thread for them here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291761). You may want to check it out.


These already exist in Eberron. Daelkyr Half-bloods are analogous to Tieflings and other Planetouched.


On the earlier topic of liches, there are a bunch of demilich skulls, and at least one demilich hand (described in ELH, leads a guild in Union). Back when I first ran into the template, I tried to think of other plausible bodyparts that could form demiliches, but without much luck. Are there any demiliches on record who are composed of another bodypart, not a skull or a hand?

[123456789blaaa]

These already exist in Eberron. Daelkyr Half-bloods are analogous to Tieflings and other Planetouched.


On the earlier topic of liches, there are a bunch of demilich skulls, and at least one demilich hand (described in ELH, leads a guild in Union). Back when I first ran into the template, I tried to think of other plausible bodyparts that could form demiliches, but without much luck. Are there any demiliches on record who are composed of another bodypart, not a skull or a hand?


Where the heck did you get that idea from? I'd say they're almost nothing alike except for having ties to the Far Realm/Xoriat.

[Urpriest]

Where the heck did you get that idea from? I'd say they're almost nothing alike except for having ties to the Far Realm/Xoriat.

Mostly, the fact that both are low-ECL, mostly humanlike beings birthed among mortal races as the result of reproduction with beings from another plane. Admittedly, in Eberron they are direct, rather than indirect, but Eberron also has half-elves and changelings that breed true, so it's a somewhat different case anyway.

[Mystify]

Has any deity ever tried to simply make new followers, through whatever method? create new people, encourage reckless rates of breeding, nurturing them on a protected demiplane, etc?

[Rob Roy]

Has the Yak-Men/Forgotten God/ Dao Khan story ever been mentioned outside of Al-Qadim?

[CRtwenty]

Are there any Ancient Baatorians that have actually been given names and agendas? I know they still exist, but I was wondering if we actually knew about any specific ones. For some reason my headcanon has Dispatar being one but I have no idea where it came from.

[afroakuma]

Clever! :smallamused: Anyways, I'd love to hear your theory, but I won't press the issue if you want it to stay secret. :smallsmile:

By Clicking This Spoiler Button You Agree Not To Ask Questions About Things Within
There's always been a fundamental difficulty in reconciling Mystara with the Great Wheel canon, because Mystara's cosmology is weird and unique. In particular, Mystara has no gods, having rather "Immortals." It could be theorized that the unusual elements of Mystara's universe are really just another way of addressing similar concepts, however.

What the Known World did establish, however, was power at the highest levels recognized anywhere in an D&D multiverse. Gilmpses from the Immortals Rules of things too great to fathom have been provided, including the existence of a dimensional barrier. This barrier is fundamentally meaningless to nondeities, but to powers it represents the gulf between their universe and a higher order they could not begin to fathom.

Past this barrier, beyond the Dimensional Vortex, are said to be the Old Ones, also known as the Elder Gods or the Powers-Beyond-the-Powers. It is said that they created the whole of the multiverse. It is possible that overpowers are created within or beyond the Vortex by these entities beyond all thought and possibility.


Ghaunadaur is about malign knowledge?

Oh sure. Not completely, but Corruption is one of his domains, and he's a god of the dark and ancient times, inscrutable and capricious yet with terrible power, who wishes all to break free of the constraints of society, to learn through alienation and rebellion, to share the knowledge and faith of Ghaunadaur, and at the end to die in self-sacrifice to That Which Lurks. I'd say he fits the bill.


It seems kind of weird to me that such a diverse bunch of beings-especially beings form the far realm-would all produce the same generic template when mating with a non-far realmy creature.

It's not a very good template.


How familiar are you with Pathfinder planar fluff?

0%.


On the earlier topic of liches, there are a bunch of demilich skulls, and at least one demilich hand (described in ELH, leads a guild in Union). Back when I first ran into the template, I tried to think of other plausible bodyparts that could form demiliches, but without much luck. Are there any demiliches on record who are composed of another bodypart, not a skull or a hand?

Doesn't look like it. You could make a demilich out of part of a spine, though, or the sternum or a portion of the ribcage. Even the pelvis would make for an odd, fairly threatening (if you ignore that it's, you know, a pelvis) demilich. Pelvic bone is a scary-lookin' thing.


Has any deity ever tried to simply make new followers, through whatever method? create new people, encourage reckless rates of breeding, nurturing them on a protected demiplane, etc?

Plenty of gods have a favored race with rabbit-like breeding; orcs, goblins and the like all pop out children like there's no tomorrow. Never seems to matter, though. Divine power isn't easily optimized for. It seems that the richest sources are the most contested. Finding some out-of-the-way sphere and flooding it with only your people never seems to work out for gods like you'd think it would.

Then, of course, there's the fact that they cannot extend their influence where their worship does not lie. If Gruumsh happens to spot a perfectly suitable planet without any sentient life to contest him hovering in some far-off corner of the multiverse, he can't create orcs there and take over, nor can he do anything else to it, until his worshipers have already arrived there. A god cannot as a general rule self-admit into a crystal sphere. Physically, now...


Has the Yak-Men/Forgotten God/ Dao Khan story ever been mentioned outside of Al-Qadim?

Not particularly.


Are there any Ancient Baatorians that have actually been given names and agendas? I know they still exist, but I was wondering if we actually knew about any specific ones. For some reason my headcanon has Dispatar being one but I have no idea where it came from.

Technically, there are two. Technically.

1) Zargon. He's not actually an ancient Baatorian, though. Lies told to children at the hand of the Lord Below.

2) Baalphegor is not an ancient Baatorian. Of course not. What a silly idea. Where would you ever get a notion like that? What do you mean she's vanished? Alert the Lord Below at once. Signal Duke Mephistopheles. This is a crisis situation! The ancie- *ahem* Lady Baalphegor is a perfectly normal baatezu, what are you talking about?

There have been a couple of appearances in canon of unnamed ancient Baatorians, but their agendas beyond the most immediate terms remain unknown.

Dispater is definitely not an ancient Baatorian.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Is it possible to harvest the crystal of the crystal spheres? And if so, does it have any properties beyond mundane crystal?