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Mr. Mask
2013-08-23, 12:46 PM
OK. I woke up, watched Extra Credits about playtesting, which made me think about playtesting for table top games, which made me think about character sheets...


Do any of you have ideas or design preferences on this topic? Even if you can tell a character sheet is well designed and easy to read, or poorly designed and hard to make out, it's generally hard to put into words as to why this is.

Thinking about it, I noted to myself that no one puts the critical information at the very top of the character sheet, just as novels don't have their text start from the very top of pages--simply because it's awkward to read there.


What are your thoughts on character sheets? Can you think of examples from tabletop games which really impressed you, or really bug you?

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-08-23, 12:53 PM
I need the 3-4 things that I will constantly be referencing to be front-and-center.

Slipperychicken
2013-08-23, 01:00 PM
I need the 3-4 things that I will constantly be referencing to be front-and-center.

Basically. If a something's important and needs to referenced in a hurry, put it where I can see it, not in a corner on the third page.

AKA_Bait
2013-08-23, 01:53 PM
I need it to be automated or, minimally, editable on a PC. I know some folks are fans of pencil and paper, but I personally would much rather have it electronically.

Also, I am a fan of sheets that have a two column system going for anything that can be affected during gameplay. (e.g., one column for total hp, one for current hp; one for base str, one for current str)

horseboy
2013-08-23, 04:08 PM
There's never enough room for equipment. I always end up just writing it on another sheet.

RandomNPC
2013-08-23, 04:46 PM
I've gotten so used to the standard layout that came in the back of the PHB for 3.X I haven't put much thought into it. I'd like something like the magic item body slot sheet to become standard as the back of the sheet.

I can make a half sheet of notebook paper cover everything on a first level adventurer, but once things start to expand (Magic bonus, feat bonus, gear bonus...) Now I need to look for a make your own site and see what I can do. I really want a gear location sheet to be standard though, so much easier than going through a list of things in the order you got them looking for headgear before you decide to keep or sell the new hat.

Zavoniki
2013-08-23, 06:05 PM
Really just basic organization. I tend to type mine up anyway and cluster any of the statistics I need easy access to in one area and then separate out sections for the big things(For D20, Abilities, Skills, Feats, Gear, Class Features, Spells). Generally I try to have all the things I would want access to at one time visible on the same page(IE all the combat stats)

IE for Eclipse Phase it would go something like(As a Blank Sheet):

Name:
Background:
Faction:

COG:
COO:
REF:
INT:
SOM:
SAV:
WILL:

Moxie:

Lucidity:
TT:
IR:

Ego Traits:
Positive then a line break for

Negative traits

Morph:
Durability:
WT:
DR:

Credits:
Rep:

Morph Implants and Traits
Positive

Negative

Speed:
Initiative:
Armor:

Weapon/Attacks:
Space Gun A:
Space Gun A stats.

Skills:

Software:

Gear:


If I wanted to really improve this sheet I'd mark down my Fray(Dodge) skill up near Attacks and put the Attack skill level next to the weapon/attack.

I also like using () or [] for modifiers that aren't intrinsic to your character(morph and gear bonuses in EP, magic items in DnD)

Jay R
2013-08-23, 07:38 PM
If it's on more than one page, even front and back, I want every piece of information needed during combat to be on the same page/side. No turning it over or thumbing through during combat.

Grinner
2013-08-23, 07:47 PM
Ideally, it shouldn't need to be longer than half a page.

Jurai
2013-08-23, 08:04 PM
When I did sheets up, I'd do them on lined paper. (This was before Heroforge)

The top space would be where I'd record character vital statistics (Name, Age, Sex, Class, Alignment, HP).

Below that, I would have all six ability scores, their totals, and the modifiers associated with it.

After that came my three saves: Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.

Then came Base Attack Bonus, and below that, weapons.

After that, if I had the space, I'd list down my feats. If I had room on the side, I'd list my skills.

On the back, I'd list loot.

On another sheet, I'd list my spells.

Rondodu
2013-08-23, 08:41 PM
I would say a character sheet is well organised if I can find stuff I need quickly when I need it.

So, first, it means identifying a character sheet quickly. Especially for a GM (because, yes, your GM should have your character sheets with them between games, or at the very least a copy of it).

It doesn’t mean putting everything on the first page. In a game were combats are ubiquitous or take a long time, you needn’t put everything combat related on the first page. But having it on its own page is a must; a duplicate of combat skills, damages, temporary health points, etc. Possibly useful tables.

Magic stuff should have its own pages too. Especially so that non-magic-user can just discard them.

Is the game puts some light on equipment, then a very well organised equipment page is essential. Bonus points if the sheet is well organised iff your equipment is. Can’t find your health kit? Well maybe you shouldn’t have just thrown it into you backpack.

If the character sheet is several pages long, I tend to avoid writing on the first page more than a few times a session. So hit/mana points on a first page is a no-go. At most a place to write them after scenes in which they change a lot has ended.

If the character sheet is several pages long, I should never need more than two pges in front of my eyes.

Here are two character sheets (in French) I love, although I just be used to them.

The character sheet for In Nomine Satanis v4 (http://www.jdrp.fr/telechargement/asmodee/fiche_perso_ins.pdf) is, for me, a great example of signel page character sheet, with on top the character name and other important in-game info; below that,*characteristics. On the top left, main skills, in the bottom left, lesser-used skills; in between, rare skills (no need to list them all). Top right, damage markers. In the middle right, magical powers and, bottom right, notes, including equipment.

Its angelic pendant The character sheet for Magna Veritas v4 (http://www.jdrp.fr/telechargement/asmodee/fiche_perso_mv_2.pdf) (same game, different team). The organisation is similar, but different. I love that the angelic one is cleaner and ore symetric in its design than the demonic one without making the demonic less readable.

An “old-school” game, very long example with the character sheet from Rêve de Dragon (http://www.prevot-co.fr/difundrum/jdr/fiches/Rdd2feuilleOriginal.pdf). Very long, the first page is characteristics and skills (note that the weapon skill are left blank because you don’t need to know you can’t handle a sword when you keep fighting axe and bow). The table on the top left is the one you use for basic resolution. Some space for notes, but I would only keep long term notes here.

The second page is “temporary points”. Expect to erase that one a lot. Hit points, life points, wounds, on the top right, magic on the top left. Diverse temporary points (morale, experience) bottom right, various table bottom left (was there some place left?).

Third page is equipment. Yes, thats a lot of possible bags. Once again, weapons have their own place, with various info for quick reference.

Fourth page is basically “everything you need when you gain a skill level”: experience costs and some very game-specific info.

The last page is a magic-user “spellbook”.

Compare to the character sheet from the english translation (http://malcontentgames.com/loot/downloads/ReveChar.pdf) the sheet is shorter, the font quite smaller. But the first page mix nearly fixed and ever-changing counters, list every single weapon described in the manual on the character sheet when you’ll use 7 at most (including hand-to-hand and dodging), list every armor in the manual. The second page list equipment (just a big list) and the standard price for every item (except for weapons, see page 1). Sure it contains more info in two pages than the original in three, but most of it is useless and, quite frankly, it’s a mess.

DrBurr
2013-08-23, 09:46 PM
Magic stuff should have its own pages too. Especially so that non-magic-user can just discard them.


Definitely my biggest issue with most default sheets in DnD or any game with Magic is when a block is made for spells on the first or second page. I usually just use it for item overflow even when playing a mage because theres not enough space for my spells anyway.

Even though I DM mostly I hate seeing these blocks when I'm reviewing sheets between sessions. Just reminds me of all the other things that could be there

Moving Away from my peeve on Magic spaces, the members of my group really want a space for proficiencies I have no idea why but whenever we make characters for a game I'll always hear one of them complain that they need a spot to list what kind of Armor they can where. I usually just chuckle

LibraryOgre
2013-08-23, 09:51 PM
Clean, simple organization. That's going to vary from game to game, but that's what I want.

TheCountAlucard
2013-08-23, 10:03 PM
Like our friendly mod said, it's gonna vary from game to game. Shadowrun is often very gear-heavy, so the tiny boxes they've consistently provided for gear, magic, drones, et cetera., can be infuriating.

Whereas in Exalted even a god-king's panoply is largely abstracted, and his important things (orichalcum armor, magic sword, gem of immortality), can all fit in the space provided, and the ST is encouraged not to make players track things like how many feet of rope they have, or how many salted fish they can afford (what we really need is more space for Charms :smalltongue:). You don't really need to track how many throwing axes you have when you can create call them back to your hands, create them from Essence, or just kill someone with an origami crane. :smalltongue:

LibraryOgre
2013-08-23, 11:51 PM
Let's talk Hackmaster.

Now, in Hackmaster, what I need most often is skills and stats, followed by combat. My ideal sheet will have the first page be skills, stats, and priors and particulars (height, weight, class, race, etc.). Also, this is a good place for proficiencies, talents, quirks, flaws, and racial and class abilities. The skills list should have their key attributes listed, and some what of identifying Universal skills at a glance.

The second page is going to be for combat. I want a few combat roses and two or three worksheets, as well as things like HP, TOP, Trauma save, and armor & shield stuff. If you can fit in a shield save chart, that's fab, since it's something I don't have to look up.

Third page should be for gear, including some columns for tracking encumbrance, space for cash, and this would be a good place for something about fatigue (since you probably couldn't fit it on the 2nd page).

Fourth page? Fourth page should cover spells and magic, so it's completely skippable.

Fifth page should be additional pages for spellbooks, and thus, also skippable if you don't need it.

This gives me a good, well-organized, sheet that I can quickly flip through to find what I need. I might want more for priors and particulars; I could detail my family, or go into the backstory for my flaws, or whatever. But I don't need it NEARLY as much as I need those three or four clean sheets, without garbage.

This (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au-uL96OTnzjdFhRWDJmVnBxa0lYWmNiRVhMVjVlUFE#gid=0)is a Pathfinder sheet I did in GoogleDrive. Is it perfect? Not in the least. But being a workbook, it's pretty easy to change as I need to, and my core pages are pretty solid. I can print it up or run it off the screen. It's simple, clean, and organized so I can find everything quickly. 'Cause that's what I want from a character sheet.

Taet
2013-08-24, 12:25 AM
I want for everyone a space to write that is the same size as the numbers on ordinary dice. If a player can read the dice a player can read the sheet. If it is smaller it's no good. Also I want a way to stop the pdf forms from getting smaller text when a cat steps on the keyboard but they have to not lock the text so I can make the text larger if I have to. Why does a cat never make the text larger.

I want for myself extra large spaces or extra lines next to everything added in the game. If my INT has to get added to a skill check I want to write it down next to that skill or I will forget. I need to write down what dice to use if it's not always the same one. I will never remember to look at the table in the book if I don't write down the page number next to the roll that tells me to look at the table.

erikun
2013-08-24, 12:30 AM
Ideally, it should be clear where everything is. Important or common values should be large and in the upper half of the first page. If the system will allow magic and equipment to just be a couple of lines, then they're fine on the first page. If you're keeping track of all the equipment or dozens of spells for a character, though, it generally gets a separate page.

Oh, and no tables. I just hate seeing tables of numbers and small print on character sheets, especially after a pencil and eraser has been in use. I frequently write out D&D3e sheets on blank paper or type them in Notepad to avoid dealing with the D&D3e character sheet in that regard.

Knaight
2013-08-24, 12:59 AM
All that I want is something that looks decent, doesn't take a lot of ink, and puts the information important for the game where it needs to be and formatted for the visibility it needs to have. Generally speaking I also like white space, but that's more a side affect of preferring rules light games than anything else.


Also I want a way to stop the pdf forms from getting smaller text when a cat steps on the keyboard but they have to not lock the text so I can make the text larger if I have to. Why does a cat never make the text larger.

I believe we call this phenomenon the Murfuzz law.

Hober Mallow
2013-08-24, 04:02 AM
Most of my gaming is D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder. Many years ago after getting fed up with the amount of time that was wasted in trying to remember magic items, spell details, combat bonuses, etc. I decided to put every character on a customised multi-page character sheet using Microsoft's Excel spreadsheet program which I print out before every session.

I think that conventional character sheets are a waste of time because they force players to rely too much upon their memory and are badly laid out. Players who use these sheets are more likely to dither, forget stuff and waste lots of time when calculating their combat bonuses. I have a separate page for each category (equipment, spells, etc.) so my character sheets tend to be several pages long.

The spreadsheet is designed to automatically calculate things like spell ranges, saving throw bonuses, DCs against my spells, etc. whenever the character is updated. Examples are:

The main page which contains attributes, classes, levels, key features, key feats and any other really important stuff that I wouldn’t want to forget.

Spells (often several pages long). Each spell has a separate entry which contains all relevant information such as range, area of effect, duration, saving throw DC, etc. These figures are calculated automatically and when I level up the spreadsheet updates every figure for each spell.

Equipment. Again this is often several pages long as I like to note everything that an item does on the sheet. Players who don’t tend to forget lots of relevant information as they are relying too much upon their memory.

Consumables (wands, potions, scrolls). It’s not unusual for me to have a character with a very high Use Magic Device skill who has 30 or more scrolls from a variety of classes. I would rather keep the relevant information for these scrolls on a page or two than rely on my memory.

Combat. The combat sheet details the to hit and damage bonuses for primary and secondary weapons (showing where each bonus comes from), as well as the effect of common options (multiple attacks, Inspire Courage), plus Armour Class and Initiative. When the fighting starts this is the first sheet that I turn to.

Add other sheets as needed. For example, a few years ago when we finished the Rise of the Runelords campaign my 8th Bard / 2nd Lyric Thaumaturge / 6th Sublime Chord had two pages just for tactical notes as to what default action to take in a particular situation (e.g. if Ambushed then cast Greater Mirror Image; a list of the things that she could do with Swift and Immediate actions, etc.). Then there were four pages for her spells and two pages for what she could do with Bardic Music.

During the game I keep track of variables such as hit points and spells used on a notepad rather than on the character sheet. Players who rub things out on their character sheet and keep track of their hit points in those little boxes are making things more difficult for themselves than they need to be.

horseboy
2013-08-24, 11:16 AM
Whereas in Exalted even a god-king's panoply is largely abstracted, and his important things (orichalcum armor, magic sword, gem of immortality), can all fit in the space provided, and the ST is encouraged not to make players track things like how many feet of rope they have, or how many salted fish they can afford (what we really need is more space for Charms :smalltongue:). You don't really need to track how many throwing axes you have when you can create call them back to your hands, create them from Essence, or just kill someone with an origami crane. :smalltongue:

White Wolf games usually need two different styles of character sheets. Yeah, the ones they usually give you work for near campaign end power level where you just don't care anymore, but suck for "low level" play. You know, when you can't quite get away with flouting your power and you've actually got to worry about the Masquerade/Veil/Tapestry/Wild Hunt so you've got to handle things as mundanely as possible. Sure enough starting dots in Heart's Blood will take care of most survival and travel problems, but it's obvious as all get out. "Oh you're just passing through to the next village two weeks that way? Why aren't you carrying two weeks of food?" It would really help the verisimilitude if they payed more attention to stuff like that themselves as well as bringing it up to the players.

TheCountAlucard
2013-08-25, 02:40 AM
Sure enough starting dots in Heart's Blood will take care of most survival and travel problems, but it's obvious as all get out.Not following. :smallconfused:


"Oh you're just passing through to the next village two weeks that way? Why aren't you carrying two weeks of food?"Living off the land is a thing, though, especially for the type of person who Exalts as a Lunar - after all, per 2e's RAW, you can't play a Lunar without dots in Survival. And if he's got the Resources for it, it can be handwaved when said PC says, "I resupply before leaving town."


It would really help the verisimilitude if they payed more attention to stuff like that themselves as well as bringing it up to the players.Why? I've never had a session improved by saying, "Okay, so after going across town to procure 16 pounds of salted meat and dried peas, you head to the corduer's and trade a half-ounce of silver for some rope; his brother the wainwright puts in a good word with the local cartographer, and gets you 10% off on the map to the next town, which you pick up before setting off," as opposed to, "Okay, so you resupply before setting off - do you want to buy a map, or are you confident in your Survival Ability?"

Ailowynn
2013-08-25, 03:50 PM
I find it surprising how few people have mentioned looks. I like a character sheet that's easy to look at and that has a nifty design. Not some sort of crazy printer-killer, but something a bit more than boxes. Perhaps that's just me.

I like character sheets made by people who play the game. I mean, I know the designers play the game, but the character sheets in the backs of books always seem to lack something. Too little space fore equipment or spells. No place to track XP (*coughSWSEcough*), etc, etc. I like a sheet that has a place to track that thing that I always forget about, or ditches the useless boxes.

Kane0
2013-08-25, 05:13 PM
I always have my characters in excel so i can change format on the fly. A pdf or printed copy can only change numbers, i might want to put in an extra line or move that section around.


-Snip-
Like this, except Hober seems far more organised than me.

My first page is the basic stats. Attributes, saves, HP, bonuses, attacks, etc. I usually add a section for common things to happen to my character like special defenses, buffs, conditions, etc.
Second page is skills and feats.
Third is spells available / per day
Fourth is spells known
Fifth is equipment and inventory, which includes wealth and carry capacity
Sixth is my backstory, journal & notes.
Seventh is for other information, like my class table or commonly used rules that i need to remind the DM of.

Then i cut out pages I don't need, which is usually only the two magic pages on a martial character though I have had to change them to Maneuvers known for a ToB character (maneuvers ready went on the 1st page).

And then i start color coding, bordering and bolding to help me read it all.

Slipperychicken
2013-08-25, 05:56 PM
I like character sheets made by people who play the game.

Me too. People with experience playing the game have a better idea of which layout is more convenient, and how much space they need to write things.

Roguenewb
2013-08-26, 07:44 AM
I want a character sheet where things are grouped by level of use, instead of by some theorectical "logical organization". Every 3.5 sheet wizards has published always has 3 damn slots for weapons, and the detailed area for armor and shields, ON THE FIRST PAGE! In a perfect world, the first page is like an abstract for a paper, it contains all the information you need to run the character, with supporting details on the subsequent pages. Done properly, I wouldn't have to look at the back pages in an encounter, only at level ups, shopping, or when things chance drastically between encounters.

Second, an understanding that areas that need heavy erasing/re-editing need to be separate from things that shouldn't be changed. Oh sweet Vecna, how many times have I erased wounds suffered and accidentally also got part of the my AC!

DigoDragon
2013-08-26, 08:00 AM
When I draw out my own sheets, I follow a three-column format that is fairly similar to the d20 sheets:

Left column for stats, with main attacks below that
Middle column for advantages/qualities
Right column for skills

Equipment is usually on the back.

Rondodu
2013-08-26, 01:48 PM
How is constantly flipping your character sheet even remotely practical?

Hunter Noventa
2013-08-26, 01:54 PM
I've created a multi-sheet spreadsheet for use with pathfinder, since that's what most of our games are these days. it's reallyuseful because i can do things like have it add up skill points or attack bonuses automatically. Like, I have a section near the top that handles the most common buff (Attack, AC, saves) and adds them to the appropriate places automatically.

I also have separate sheets for a spellbook, spells for the day, skills and gear, even planning out my character progression. It's been a wonderful tool, and really, nothing is going to match a character sheet you make yourself.

Morgarion
2013-08-26, 02:01 PM
Does anyone else remember that really simple MS Word document from the early aughts? It was for D&D 3.x - it probably technically worked best for 3.0 - but it was basically just text and underscores. It was an abominably elegant, no frills thing. It was the gold standard for my group back then. It was ruled a little small, so some of the spots were harder to write in and read from than others, but it fit everything but a spell list (I think) all on one page. I'd love to be able to find that document again.

Jay R
2013-08-26, 03:52 PM
My ideal Character Sheet is an Excel spreadsheet I've created myself, that I occasionally re-organize to better fit my purposes. It calculates every thing that is calculable, including a "To-hit" number for each AC, with each weapon.

I've made them for specific characters in original D&D, AD&D 1E and 2E, Flashing Blades, Champions, and Fantasy Hero.