[3.5/PF] Switching in and out of combat

[Calmar]

The one thing that bothers me about 3.5 and PF is the fact that, in all games I've seen, roleplaying ends when combat begins: the game then turns from a storytelling game to performing game mechanics on the battlemap. Things like tense exploration of a decrepit ruin where suddenly, out of nowhere an unknown or unseen monster attacks only to quickly disappear again seem impossible.

For surprise attackers, I was thinking about using faceless tokens that the players can eitehr defend themeself against, or use an action to identify with Spot/Perception. After all, one or two rounds are only 6 or 12 chaotic seconds.

How do you handle these things in your games?

[Slipperychicken]

Things like tense exploration of a decrepit ruin where suddenly, out of nowhere an unknown or unseen monster attacks only to quickly disappear again seem impossible.

You can pull that off, but much like real life, it's really hard to do a melee hit-and-run without someone getting a good look at you.

The spot penalties for darkness and distance might counter the hide penalties for attacking.

[Slide]

Things like tense exploration of a decrepit ruin where suddenly, out of nowhere an unknown or unseen monster attacks only to quickly disappear again seem impossible.


You know what your PCs character sheets look like, right?

Roll for 'em. Spot/Listen checks vs Hide checks. Tension level goes WAY up when they hear dice rolling.

Now roll a few dice randomly. Stare at them. "Hmm...", shrug, and continue describing the area.

There's got to be some reason you're rolling those dice, right? What is it? Why didn't you say anything? WHAT'S OUT THERE THAT WE MISSED!?


"You hear something scurrying down the hallway." (stare at dice) "Might have been a big rat. Might not."

Was that a rat? Why would he roll dice to see if we heard a rat? It had to be something bigger than a rat. Maybe we should just stay here and listen really hard. Do we hear anything else? No? Is that because we failed the listen checks? Is it because it's not moving? Did it stop moving because we stopped too?

"You see two dim reflections from your light source for a moment through the archway. They hover about three feet off the ground for a second or two, then vanish."

Was that a rat again? Why would a rat be three feet off the ground? Was it on the back wall? Was it something else that STANDS three feet off the ground? My character is only level 4, there's a lot of three foot tall things that can still eat me...

"The mist seeps in through the gaping windows and cracks in the stone wall. Even with your torch, you can barely see to the end of your sword." (roll dice)

Uh oh. Not good. This is the part where we get eaten, right? Uh... ready action to shoot the first loud noise I hear.

And that's your cue for someone to kick up a cloud of sneeze-inducing dust, or stumble into a spiderweb, or knock over a few objects piled atop each other.

Use dramatic tension and pacing. Bring it up, bring it down. And when the players finally start to relax a little, THAT'S when something should jump out at them.

[Calmar]

See, my point is not how to create tension, but how to maintain it, once combat begins and roll-playing tends to begin. Once something has jumped at the PCs, I want to keep the tension alive instead of a plain kill-or-be-killed- showdown.

[Slipperychicken]

See, my point is not how to create tension, but how to maintain it, once combat begins and roll-playing tends to begin. Once something has jumped at the PCs, I want to keep the tension alive instead of a plain kill-or-be-killed- showdown.

Maybe you want a game system which runs combat fast enough to maintain tension? It doesn't have to be as slow as D&D makes it.

[JellyPooga]

This is a common problem and it's one that doesn't really have an easy answer.

- One way that satisfies some is to simply describe the action in non-game terms. Saying that "the Orc lunges wildly for you, his scimitar singing a song of swift death as he sidesteps around your defenses" is more immersive than "the orc attacks". The problem with this is two-fold; there's ambiguity over specific actions and headwork for everyone to come up with original descriptions.

- Another way to "keep the roleplay" is to have NPCs (and PCs, for that matter) act like actual people instead of game pieces. Yes, it might be tactically sound for the high AC Rogue to block the corridor so the skeleton can't reach the Wizard, but he's a coward, so prefers to hide in the shadows round the corner. Similarly, it might be good tactics for the Orcs to hold position at the top of the stairs, but in the depths of a bestial rage one charges recklessly ahead; seeing the one guy going forward, none of his mates want to look like a coward, so suddenly the PC's are faced with a sweeping tide of orcs rushing down the stairs.

- Mix up the combat. Use combat maneuvers; Bull-Rush, Overrun and so forth might not be that good from a mechanical standpoint, but they're often very cool imagery enhancers. For example, the aforementioned tide of Orcs sweeping down the stairs; have the front few guys bull rush and/or overrun the first couple of PCs they encounter to simulate the orcs behind pushing the front-runners ahead in their own eagerness to get to grips with the heroes.

To specifically address the issue of hit-and-run monsters, identification and tension:
- The simplest method I can think of is to simply have the monsters dressed in concealing clothing. Most humanoids look practically identical if wearing a voluminous hood or masks. Only subtle signs, such as their gait or build would give away their true nature, which is easily solved in game-terms by an appropriate (difficult) knowledge check.
- Don't use a battlemap. Once that bad-boy comes out, everyone knows it's Tactics-time and you have the problem of using appropriate miniatures or counters. Don't give them that luxury. Describe the blur of motion, the pain of an arrow out of nowhere, the confusion of the moment when the torch-light flickers out in a mysterious gust of air. Give them a chance to respond, but keep the narrative pressure on; tell them what they need to know, but keep it ambiguous and constantly hurry them along time-wise. If they don't make a decision quickly enough, their character stands there dithering for the round. Make your Players as disoriented as their characters are supposed to be. Before they can really get to grips with the encounter and start turning the tide, end it with the bad-guys disappearing into the shadows, leaving the PCs dazed and confused.

[Slide]

Why is your combat lasting beyond 1 or 2 rounds?

You're the DM. Control the combat like everything else. If they want to see something that's got a Hide of +20 or more, they'd better be popping Glitterdust all the time. That thing is going to want to Sneak Attack them continuously. It's going to appear, then disappear for five minutes.