D&D 3.5 levels for mythical figures, etc.

[Stille_Nacht]

So I'm a new-ish DM, and for the purposes of knowing how to set up my narrative, i'm just asking for some comparisons. These comparisons are kind of random, but i'm trying to get a general feel.

no need to answer everything extremely detailed, but a general area would be much appreciated.

EDIT: to make it more clear, i'm not asking for concrete numbers, or class comboes, or something, just when a character should "feel" like this.
EX: Buakaw is almost always going to beat the crap out of a normal person, but a lucky guy might stab him fatally, a group of in shape men could probably beat him up, apparently this is what a level 3 should "feel" like.
Similarly, i don't need to know Aizen's class combo/skill choices/ stats. Just what his level of "i can do all this stuff" at the time of his defeat approximately corresponds to for optimized characters.
This is for DM narration purposes, i want this to be more immersive, so i'm asking for a general idea of the levels at such and such narration epicness.

So:

What level (and why) corresponds to:
-A top end fighter (Buakaw, Anderson Silva, Manny Pacquiao)?
-Odysseus (Oddysey)
-Achilles (Illiad)
-Franken D. Stein (Soul Eater)
-Hercules (Herakles' Tasks)
-Drizzt Do'Urden (Legend of Drizzt)
-Apollo (any)
-Captain Aizen (bleach)
-Zeus (any)

EDIT:
Apollo may have a rule sheet that says he's an epic character, but in the greek legends, he's been afraid, and bested by several heroes. (Perhaps ares would have been better, as he gets in more fights).
Drizzt may have a rule sheet that says hes level 16, but if the comments in this thread are accurate, his portrayal seems more like a level 10 with magic items.

Again, i'm going for DM narrative purposes, not actual builds or anything. see the top edit.


MISC:
How much STR does an olympic lifter have?

How much bludgeoning damage would being hit by a rather large (lets say 2 ft diameter sphere) boulder dropped from a good height (lets say 30 feet) do?

How many dollars is 1 GP?

How many turns would a 10 minute stun last?

[Gavinfoxx]

About level 6 is the top end for real life, everything 7+ is obviously superhuman. Non silver age Superman was ~12-15 ish...

[Invader]

Drizzt has been stated out a few times, I believe Zeus and Apollo also ha e state blocks in one of the books somewhere.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

We use to give an E6 system to "real life" characters.

Gold medal olympics are consensuated to be level 4 (more levels is "legend"), so i'd say Buakaw, Anderson Silva, level 3 fighters, and Pacquiao level 4 monk).
Achylles is the strongest warrior ever. Fighter 6.
Odysseus. Known for his wits and fighting skills. I'd say Swashbuckler 6.
Herculess, Apollo and Zeus are demi-gods. There is a book around there with their stats.

[Urpriest]

How many turns would a 10 minute stun last?

This one is pretty simple. Each round is explicitly 6 seconds, so 1 minute is 10 rounds, and 10 minutes is 100 rounds.

[AKA_Bait]

How many dollars is 1 GP?

Impossible to answer. There is no USD to D&D GP exchange rate.


How many turns would a 10 minute stun last?

100. Each round is six seconds. So, at ten rounds a minute, ten minutes is 100 rounds.

Edit: Ninja'd by an UrPriest.

[ellindsey]

Impossible to answer. There is no USD to D&D GP exchange rate.


There's no direct exchange rate, but I have seen estimates that in terms of purchasing power 1GP is roughly equal to a few hundred dollars.

[Slipperychicken]

There's no direct exchange rate, but I have seen estimates that in terms of purchasing power 1GP is roughly equal to a few hundred dollars.

The D&D universe's "economy" (air quotes because there are almost no rules for how it's supposed to run) is not comparable to a real-world one. A comparison of gold pieces to dollars is useless.



MISC:
How much STR does an olympic lifter have?


Depends on the lifter. Take the lifter's stats and compare it to the corresponding D&D Strength value on the encumbrance table. Values above 18 are possible via templates, special NPC traits, and certain classes like Human Paragon.



What level (and why) corresponds to:
-A top end fighter (Buakaw, Anderson Silva, Manny Pacquiao)?
-Odysseus (Oddysey)
-Achilles (Illiad)
-Franken D. Stein (Soul Eater)
-Hercules (Herakles' Tasks)
-Drizzt Do'Urden (Legend of Drizzt)
-Apollo (any)
-Captain Aizen (bleach)
-Zeus (any)


D&D characters are supposed to perform Herculean tasks at level 10. I'm sure you can google Hercules' dnd stats.

All those deities are given game statistics in the books Epic Level Handbook and Deities and Demigods. There are special rules to govern divine powers outlined there.

Drizzt definitely has stats somewhere.

[Spuddles]

We use to give an E6 system to "real life" characters.

Gold medal olympics are consensuated to be level 4 (more levels is "legend"), so i'd say Buakaw, Anderson Silva, level 3 fighters, and Pacquiao level 4 monk).
Achylles is the strongest warrior ever. Fighter 6.
Odysseus. Known for his wits and fighting skills. I'd say Swashbuckler 6.
Herculess, Apollo and Zeus are demi-gods. There is a book around there with their stats.

I would put the demi-gods of Greek myth to be from levels 7 to 12. Apollo and Zeus are full blown gods, immortal, can create life, and manipulate the fabric of reality. I'd probably give them at least 20 HD.


The D&D universe's "economy" (air quotes because there are almost no rules for how it's supposed to run) is not comparable to a real-world one. A comparison of gold pieces to dollars is useless.

They are absolutely comparable. You may disagree with the value of such a comparison, but you can make one. The previous thread that discussed the PPP of unskilled D&D labor with IRL PPP found it to be fairly consistent with median income in the middle ages in different countries. The value of a gold coin, based on how much unskilled labor it required to purchase a basket of goods, put gold at somewhere between $US20 and $US100

[kaminiwa]

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Drizzt_Do'Urden - Drizzt is, at least in 3rd edition, apparently a 16th level character.

Gods are generally in their own separate category, well above everything else. When given stats, they're usually ~60 HD, which would be roughly equivalent to a non-epic level 60 character.



How many dollars is 1 GP?


I find the comparison of 1 GP = $100 works fairly well. An untrained hireling is 1 sp/day, so 1 sp = 1 day of minimum wage. 8 hours/day x $7.25/hour (*) = $58, and I rounded up since I like nice, round comparisons :)

An inn stay is 2 GP or $200, which sounds about right for a nice hotel.

One pound of gold is 500 GP, or $50,000. Actual modern market price:
~$20,000

So on and so forth.

I once saw a research paper that indexed the ratio of D&D prices to real prices, and while most items were in a narrow band, this conversion rate will result in a few absurdly cheap and expensive items, as compared to either modern times or historical medieval ledgers.

So, obviously, take this with a grain of salt (5 GP / $500 per pound... um... vs a real market price of $2... so maybe salt isn't a good example :smalltongue:)

* United States federal minimum wage.

Edit Add:
http://community.wizards.com/boo_too/blog/2012/07/07/accuracy_of_dungeons__dragons_prices - Aha, here's the link :)

[Dark.Revenant]

What level (and why) corresponds to:
-A top end fighter (Buakaw, Anderson Silva, Manny Pacquiao)?
Answer: Level 6 with exceptional physical stats
-Achilles (Illiad)
Answer: Level 15 to 20, depending on interpretation; he's a legendary figure and cannot be compared to real life values like the E6 system
-Hercules (Herakles' Tasks)
Answer: Level 20-30, or perhaps an actual demigod (30+ HD), depending on interpretation
-Drizzt Do'Urden (Legend of Drizzt)
Answer: Level 16
-Apollo (any)
Answer: ~50 HD deity
-Captain Aizen (bleach)
Answer: Depends on transformation level, but level 20 in a theoretical "Shinigami" class as a pure captain
-Zeus (any)
Answer: ~50+ HD deity


MISC:
How much STR does an olympic lifter have?
Answer: 22-25 Str

How much bludgeoning damage would being hit by a rather large (lets say 2 ft diameter sphere) boulder dropped from a good height (lets say 30 feet) do?
Answer: Figure out how heavy it is and look at the falling object rules

How many dollars is 1 GP?
Answer: Depends on era. A good estimate is $20 to 1 GP, but straight conversions are pointless due to a completely different economy. Compare to medieval society.

How many turns would a 10 minute stun last?
Answer: 100

[Pesimismrocks]

Apollo and Zeus are both started out in demigods and deities along with othe Greek gods. They all have 40 class levels and 20 racial hit die.

[faircoin]

You know, there's all these ridiculous claims that "a comparison of gold pieces to dollars is useless".

As a financier, I can say this is blatantly false. It would be more accurate to say, "a useful comparison would be way too difficult to do, and not worth the time for a tabletop board game". Since all currency is an approximation of utility, and we can model utility in any system we want, it is quite possible to compare gold pieces to dollars, even in an inconsistent and screwy world with D&D gold prices. It's best to leave it at, "way too difficult to do, and not worth it".

See Debreu's Theory of Value, reprinted as a monograph in a Yale course page.

http://cowles.econ.yale.edu/P/cm/m17/m17-all.pdf

[kaminiwa]

You know, there's all these ridiculous claims that "a comparison of gold pieces to dollars is useless".

As a financier, I can say this is blatantly false.

I think the reason people say it's a useless comparison is because the prices in D&D have absolutely nothing to do with supply, demand, or utility. I suspect that the D&D economy is not even on speaking terms with those concepts :)

Thus, D&D currency is exceptional* in that that it actually isn't a useful approximation of utility.


That said, I find having a rough baseline is useful for when the GM needs to improvise prices, or for gauging what sort of market might exist for an item. For example, if an item costs 1,000 GP, it's clearly something no peasant can ever afford. Or if I know that a nice modern bed costs $1,000, and 1 GP = $100, then I can assume the PCs could purchase a bed to furnish there house for ~10 GP :)

It's also fun because it helps you realize that your PC is in the "Millionaire" tier of wealth by the time they have a mere ten thousand GP. Most players don't realize quite how relatively wealthy their character is, because magic items tend to cost at least a thousand GP :)

(* exceptional, in the sense of "being an exception"; not in the sense of awesome :))

[faircoin]

I think the reason people say it's a useless comparison is because the prices in D&D have absolutely nothing to do with supply, demand, or utility

Utility will never, ever be irrelevant so long as agents aren't gods with arbitrarily large amounts of power (like the Lady of Pain; even normal deities suffer from having utility).

The prices in D&D don't have "absolutely nothing" to do with utility; like real-world prices, it fails to calibrate for optimal utility maximization, but it can approximate it, as is the purpose of currency valuation.

Moreover, as fundamental processes like magic are directly tied to currency (like wish), the currency itself has value.

Finally, if we are to accept that the pricing in D&D "just is" and has no "underlying reasons", then this becomes an underlying reason in developing a economic model.

Since economics is predicated on the decision-making ability of humans, everything else must follow in any system. Including D&D.

[Prime32]

This article is a must-read for this topic:
http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2

Or for a rough estimate you could try this page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperWeight) and the formula Minimum Level = (Weight x 3) + 1.



-Hercules (Herakles' Tasks)
Answer: Level 20-30, or perhaps an actual demigod (30+ HD), depending on interpretationWay too high. A level 30 character could punch a hydra so hard it disintegrated. And while D&D gods are insanely high-level, that doesn't mean all gods of all religions are; normal humans have beaten Olympians, which isn't possible if they're level 50.

Just about the only mythical hero I'd stat as epic is Sun Wukong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Wukong) (Cú Chullain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn) is pretty high-level, but not that high).

[Dark.Revenant]

Way too high. A level 30 character could punch a hydra so hard it disintegrated. And while D&D gods are insanely high-level, that doesn't mean all gods of all religions are; normal humans have beaten Olympians, which isn't possible if they're level 50.

Just about the only mythical hero I'd stat as epic is Sun Wukong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Wukong) (Cú Chullain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn) is pretty high-level, but not that high).

Heracles after taking his place as a demigod, after having completed his labors, would have such a level.

DURING the labors, he's 10-20.

[Invader]

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Drizzt_Do'Urden - Drizzt is, at least in 3rd edition, apparently a 16th level character.

Gods are generally in their own separate category, well above everyone. When given stats, they're usually ~60 HD, which would be roughly equivalent to a non-epic level 60 character.



I find the comparison of 1 GP = $100 works fairly well. An untrained hireling is 1 sp/day, so 1 sp = 1 day of minimum wage. 8 hours/day x $7.25/hour (*) = $58, and I rounded up since I like nice, round comparisons :)

An inn stay is 2 GP or $200, which sounds about right for a nice hotel.

One pound of gold is 500 GP, or $50,000. Actual modern market price:
~$20,000

So on and so forth.

I once saw a research paper that indexed the ratio of D&D prices to real prices, and while most items were in a narrow band, this conversion rate will result in a few absurdly cheap and expensive items, as compared to either modern times or historical medieval ledgers.

So, obviously, take this with a grain of salt (5 GP / $500 per pound... um... vs a real market price of $2... so maybe salt isn't a good example :smalltongue:)

* United States federal minimum wage.

Edit Add:
http://community.wizards.com/boo_too/blog/2012/07/07/accuracy_of_dungeons__dragons_prices - Aha, here's the link :)

The only problem with this method is it hyper inflates the cost of silver and copper. There's really no good way to equate the platinum/gold/silver/copper fantasy standard to modern currency standard, unless you only use one of 4 denominations and ignore the other 3.

[GuesssWho]

When a house costs a thousand GP, but it takes one GP just to have lunch, you know the economy is truly ****ed.

[Slipperychicken]

When a house costs a thousand GP, but it takes one GP just to have lunch, you know the economy is truly ****ed.

Actually...


Meals (per day)
Good 5 sp —
Common 3 sp —
Poor 1 sp

At the absolute minimum, it takes 1 silver to eat poor meals for a day. Assuming a 3 meal day, that means that one poor meal would be ~3-4 coppers.


EDIT: Wow. I just realized: The base laborer pay is 1sp/day... and that's exactly enough for one day of eating the lowest-quality food available.

[TuggyNE]

We already kind of had this thread, though it went off the rails toward the end. Should be some good stuff in there though.


EDIT: Wow. I just realized: The base laborer pay is 1sp/day... and that's exactly enough for one day of eating the lowest-quality food available.

You are enlightened.

[lycantrope]

I'm fairly certain that Drizzts actual stats are Ranger 1/Cleric 19, as this is the only possible explanation for how he keeps pulling miracles out of his butt.

[Chronos]

Quoth Gavinfoxx:

About level 6 is the top end for real life, everything 7+ is obviously superhuman. Non silver age Superman was ~12-15 ish...

Which you apparently got from that Alexandrian article Prime32 linked to, because that's the source that everyone who says things like that ultimately trace back to.

Except that the game that that article talks about quite clearly isn't D&D, since a sixth-level D&D character is far from the top end of what's possible in the real world.

To give a few benchmarks:

In trying to stat out Einstein, Alexander calculates that it'd take a 5th level character to be able to learn something so hard, nobody has ever learned it before. OK, well and good... But that's not a description of Einstein: That's the definition of a PhD. Thus, by Alexander's own math, every single person with a PhD must be at least level 5.

Level 6 is when, in D&D, a character can attract a cohort and followers. Many, many people in our world have cohorts and followers. Therefore, there must be many, many level 6 people in our world.

Level 11 in D&D is considered a rough benchmark for when a character is considered "legendary". Surely, you don't need to be twice as powerful as anyone in the real world has ever been, in order to be considered legendary, do you? I can name plenty of people living today for whom "legendary" would be an apt label.

The article correctly points out that high-level characters in D&D end up with a lot of hit points, and that thus, if there were high-level characters in our world, you'd occasionally hear of people surviving absurd amounts of damage. Well, yes, and in fact you do, and usually from just the sort of people you'd expect this from.

[Gavinfoxx]

<snip>

So your view of this is based on the Leadership feat? Really? Wow, that's... a view, I suppose.

And I would say a PhD is a level 3, with skill focus and one of the +2/+2 feats (or something similar) and maxxed skill ranks in the skill. And writing the Thesis to come up with something new isn't taking 10, it's rolling until you get it, or taking 20...

[hamishspence]

Cityscape, and Arms & Equipment Guide, when talking about ordinary professionals, tend to portray Masters as around 9 or 10, Apprentices as around 1-4th level, and Journeymen as around 5th level.

I could see a PhD as the equivalent of the masterwork, that a Master completes in order to get that title- but for knowledge.

[Gavinfoxx]

Cityscape, and Arms & Equipment Guide, when talking about ordinary professionals, tend to portray Masters as around 9 or 10, Apprentices as around 1-4th level, and Journeymen as around 5th level.

And we are saying that those books are wrong!

[kaminiwa]

And we are saying that those books are wrong!

The DMG "Random City Charts" would support that, but they also result in most Metropolises having Epic 24th Level Commoners.

It is a running joke in my campaign that every major Metropolis has someone who is so good at barkeeping, farming, or somesuch similar skill, that they can actually take down dragons *using* that skill.

The most ridiculous example is Farmer Brown, who tends Yggdrasil. He also keeps a flock of Steel-Wool Sheep :)


I think it really depends on the feel you want for your campaign. I like one where high levels are common, because I run high-power campaigns and want a world that can keep up with that. I have no issues with the 17th level Troll Chef who uses an extradimensional portal to hunt exotic animals and serves them for breakfast. Other people find this absurd and utterly horrible for the aesthetic :)



I would point out that a starting commoner can easily be a 16 year old human, by the starting age charts. Since doubling group size is approximately a +2 CR, we could just measure this by saying you're Level 3 when you have 50/50 odds of winning a fight against a pair of teenagers. I think plenty of people can do that :)

An Elephant is CR 7, and I would be seriously shocked if a trained soldier couldn't kill one of those. Certainly, this is well within the range of even fairly trivial mythological characters :)

A team of four such soldiers is CR 11, and I'd certainly expect that some sort of veteran special forces commando could win that fight 50% of the time.

That actually lines up really well with Cityscape, and the Arms & Equipment Guide :)



At Level 15, those four soldiers are a trivial obstacle with no real chance of hurting you, which is the point I blanch and accept that we've definitely left the realm of plausible human behavior.

There's potentially a few legendary humans in that range, but I have trouble believing that Sun Tzu truly never lost a duel. Kung Fu and Action Movie heroes who can face an entire horde of 100+ mooks and walk away without a scratch fall in to this category, I think.

At 15th, you can routinely perform actions that are still within the "human range", but a real human would have to be both skilled AND lucky to pull it off, whereas the 15th level character is doing these as a routine matter. In short, they make their own luck, and I don't think real world people can do that :)



So, obviously, at 19th, even Sun Tzu and Kung Fu Masters aren't a challenge, and at that point you're really looking at characters whose lore has them basically transcending the merely human. The only example I can come up with is the hero at the end of a Kung Fu movie: He has finally become One With The Plot, and can stand in the middle of an army casually dodging.

At 19th, one is performing feats, that while not literally impossible, are definitely outside the range of what even an amazingly lucky person could manage.



Epic is the point where you truly *are* on a different tier - you shape nations, and can probably solo their armies. Epic is also when you start getting Epic Skills, like "balancing" on a cloud, or "tumbling" through a wall of force.

Epic is when you start doing the literally impossible things :)

[hamishspence]

The DMG "Random City Charts" would support that, but they also result in most Metropolises having Epic 24th Level Commoners.

The DMG caps them at 20th level if the chart would produce higher level ones- the Epic Handbook chart needs to be in play in order for level 21 or higher NPCs to appear that way.

[Hytheter]

It is a running joke in my campaign that every major Metropolis has someone who is so good at barkeeping, farming, or somesuch similar skill, that they can actually take down dragons *using* that skill.

"Foolish mortal, how could you possibly hope to defeat me? I am the greatest of black dragons and a mighty sorcerer to boot! You are unarmed, unarmored, and completely mundane! A humble peasant! Yet you challenge me?"
"I breed cows."
"Excuse me?"
"I breed cows."
"I... I don't see how that's rele-"
*far off mooing*
*swathes of cows begin falling from the sky with meteoric force, bombarding the dragon with unprecedented force and grinding it into a fine powder*
"I BREED COWS MOTHER****ER"

[Slipperychicken]

It is a running joke in my campaign that every major Metropolis has someone who is so good at barkeeping, farming, or somesuch similar skill, that they can actually take down dragons *using* that skill.

This is the true nature of the Chicken Infested.

Also, I could absolutely see a cow-breeder filling a live cow (or even a human offering) with poison vials, then feeding it to a dragon. The vials would probably be strong enough to resist cow/human digestion, but weak enough that a dragon's insides would break them open and expose it to the poison.

[Chronos]

Quoth Gavinfoxx:

So your view of this is based on the Leadership feat? Really? Wow, that's... a view, I suppose.

And I would say a PhD is a level 3, with skill focus and one of the +2/+2 feats (or something similar) and maxxed skill ranks in the skill. And writing the Thesis to come up with something new isn't taking 10, it's rolling until you get it, or taking 20...

My view is based in part on Leadership, but also on a variety of other sources in the rules. Which, oddly enough, all seem to give the same answers, all of which are at odds with 6th level being superhuman.

And the Alexandrian article already takes into account taking 20, and skill-boosting feats, and maxed ranks, and every other conceivable bonus you could think of. That's what it takes to make a level 5 PhD. Take away any of that, and you need an even higher level.


And we are saying that those books are wrong!
Think about that: You're trying to say what it is that the D&D rulebooks are describing, and your argument depends on saying that the rulebooks themselves are wrong. Like I said, if you're talking about 6th level being effectively epic, you're not talking about D&D, but about some other game. Apparently, a game which does not have A&EG and Cityscape as rulebooks.

[JusticeZero]

As a rule? Not all that high. Six is a good estimate of most of the heavy hitters of literature, occasionally venturing as high as eight or even ten for people doing utterly superhuman feats. That's all they really NEED to do everything. in fact, i'm probably overshooting things quite a bit. The heavy hitters of the Fellowship of the Ring have been metered in as a level 6 party. A level 6 character can fight through ludicrous odds. Beyond that you start to venture into wuxia and superheroics. A level 12 party is capable of some severely surreal feats. Level 15, the gods invite you when they have a party, because you're a serious mover and shaker. level 20, when you have a party, you invite the gods, and they come because they don't want to upset you.

How many dollars is 1 GP?
Not really applicable, since the campaign is different, but it seems to eyeball in at about $25 or so USD, with the stipulation that the USD in question is residing in a third world country.

[Gavinfoxx]

I say the world described in the books are wrong, because they don't take into account the world the rules imply.

[hamishspence]

How many "Journeyman+ experts" does a city need, anyway?

If the average number produced by any of the random tables, is vastly smaller than what would be expected of a city- then I could agree with the argument that DMG and even Epic Handbook produce vastly lower numbers of mid-level NPCs than Cityscape & A&EG demand.

[Frozen_Feet]

"Calibrate your expections" is a good article, but a lot of people miss the spirit of the article (= crunch the numbers and see what is necessary to model X) and just take the conclusion presented (=real-life people cap around level 6) as a hard rule.

But it's not a hard rule. If you crunch the numbers, you will find people in real life that you might need more levels to stat properly. It's more of a soft cap - for each higher level, you are less and less likely to find people who actually need that many levels for modeling them. Most experts probably do fall around level 6, but there are outliers beyond that. (Still, personally I don't think any historical person needs levels higher than 10 to model them.)

As far as myth and fiction are concerned, the bets are off, though. You could stat someone like Thor as 8th level Fighter with some magic items. On the other hand Sun Wukong and Buddha are ridiculous even by D&D standards and need levels well past 20th to model them. I have a hard time thinking of what exact class combination would best fit Captain Aizen, but most Bleach characters would fairly comfortably be modeled as high-level gishes, such as a Psychic Warrior. Zaraki Kenpachi is fairly straight-forward Epic Barbarian with feats like Intimidating Rage, Ruinous Rage etc. Yamamoto Genryuisai is Epic Level Psychic Warrior / Pyrokineticist. So on and so forth.

As a side-note, I find Naruto a good visual representation of what high-level (15th - 20th) combat between Tier 1 casters look like. :smallwink: I mean, it's so close I could name out specific spells - summon monster, reverse gravity, orbs of force, shapechange, contingency, timestop, mindrape... :smallamused:

[Saidoro]

"Calibrate your expections" is a good article, but a lot of people miss the spirit of the article (= crunch the numbers and see what is necessary to model X) and just take the conclusion presented (=real-life people cap around level 6) as a hard rule.

But it's not a hard rule. If you crunch the numbers, you will find people in real life that you might need more levels to stat properly. It's more of a soft cap - for each higher level, you are less and less likely to find people who actually need that many levels for modeling them. Most experts probably do fall around level 6, but there are outliers beyond that. (Still, personally I don't think any historical person needs levels higher than 10 to model them.)
If you want to make it a soft cap it falls closer to level 3, level 10 is more than I can imagine anyone ever needing. For reference, a tenth level warrior with strength 13 can punch through steel with power attack. That's with no special techniques or unusual training or anything, just wailing on it as hard as they can.

As far as myth and fiction are concerned, the bets are off, though. You could stat someone like Thor as 8th level Fighter with some magic items. On the other hand Sun Wukong and Buddha are ridiculous even by D&D standards and need levels well past 20th to model them.
I can't claim to be an expert, but everything mentioned in the intro to Sun Wukong's wikipedia article could easily be replicated by a 20th level character. Wu Jen 5/Incantatrix 3/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 3 would work.

[Stille_Nacht]

This is quite interesting, but i'm not really shooting for "what levels and classes and skills would this guy have to have", i'm shooting more for "what level corresponds to this level of narration hype" or similar.

For example:
Hercules is a paragon among men. Capable of performing superhuman feats of strength. Still in danger of being killed by monsters like a hydra though. (as the tasks are supposed to be challenging).
This level of narration is what a level 10 character should feel like. While discussion on the feats and str level needed to move a river are interesting, i'm more focused on how this will affect narration.

[Slipperychicken]

This isn't going to be perfect, but here goes..


"what level corresponds to this level of narration hype" or similar.

1-3: "Normal" folks. PCs of this level have few special abilities, if any, to set them apart from the common rabble. Small groups of ordinary soldiers are a serious threat, criticals can turn the tide of battle, and any fighting is risky. Even an easy fight can go south after a few poor rolls. PCs' numbers are low enough that the d20's range (i.e. chance) matters a lot more than training, AC is supremely important, and conditions like Shaken, Sickened, Nonlethal damage, being on fire, etc matter quite a bit. Most spellcasters function as amateur crossbowman-magicians, since they have few spells per day, will almost always run out of spells each day, and need to mix magic and mundane to be effective. Encumbrance and supplies are important, since PCs need to make every pound and gold piece count.


4-6: "Heroes". PCs of this level can comfortably take down multiple ordinary opponents without any risk at all. Their numbers (hit points, attack bonus, skills) grow enough that mundane concerns like being Shaken, Tripped, or set on fire are relatively unimportant relative to stats, but can tip the odds if enough of them are used at once. AC begins losing importance as attack bonus starts scaling faster than AC, and characters who invested serious resources in AC will start being hit more often, and may start to regret that investment. Spellcasters have more endurance but still need to ration spells, they begin to acquire their more iconic/impressive spells like Fireball and Haste, and some magic effects can be set up to last long enough to be useful (Rope Trick), but the real game-changers have yet to come. Level 6 is often considered the "sweet spot" for D&D, for a number of reasons including game balance, and groups who enjoy these levels may like the "E6" variant, where PCs stop leveling at 6.


7-11 ish: "Movers and Shakers". Mortal concerns are decreasingly relevant as PCs numbers increase, and they begin fighting bigger foes like demons. People can punch through steel walls, eat lightning, and crap thunder. The big setting-changing, "plot-wrecking" spells and effects have begun to show up, and some lower-level spells become stronger due to increased duration. Overland Flight (and other all-day flight effects which become available. Not many PCs will realize how strong this is until later), Phantom Steed, and Teleport make long-distance travel trivially easy. Normal enemies and hazards are completely irrelevant to a well-prepared party; the only way to challenge them is through similarly-leveled NPCs and strong opponents like demons and mobs. Healing should be available in sufficient quantities that a party has no trouble recovering between fights. They can start performing superhuman feats as a matter of course. Spellcasters don't need to pace themselves; they have more than enough spells to last through every day, and the effects they have access to make them much stronger than non-magical characters. PC spellcasters may at this point, if they choose, become able to obviate a wide variety of challenges through careful use of scrolls and wands. Encumbrance and gold have stopped being and issue as PCs can afford conveniences like Handy Haversacks.


11-15: "Wuxia". PCs start to realize that they can survive being dropped from orbit on people (Wait.. I have 127 hp.. and the maximum from falling is 120..), and may start to amuse themselves with cockamamie schemes involving their incredible powers. Resurrection spells allow PCs to overcome death itself, leading to the "revolving door afterlife". A savvy spellcaster can smash non-casters even more easily than before, with a wide variety of balance-warping, difficult-to-counter effects at his disposal. Everyone who realizes they can fly, and understands what that means tactcally, will fly or die. All-day buffs are the norm, and can make a spellcaster nigh-untouchable. Armor Class is largely irrelevant to full-BAB characters.


15-20: "Superheroes". Normal concerns have long ago ceased to be relevant, as PCs move farther away from the familiar world's worries to face cosmic threats. Truly incredible wealth means anything the PCs want is easily attained. A high-level fighter can set himself on fire to get a tan, while most other mundane penalties are similarly ignored. Spellcasters wield godlike powers to rewrite reality on a whim, as do many foes. The d20 almost doesn't matter, since the difference between someone who has specialized in a skill and someone who hasn't is much greater than 20, and many magic effects ignore and laugh at the d20 and all who rely on it's mercy.


21+: "Gods". The game shatters completely when Epic rules are in play. Just... don't. If you are insane enough to try this, save yourself the headache and ban Epic Spellcasting.

[Urpriest]

If you want to calibrate D&D power levels, you should ignore mythology and focus on monsters. Monsters have CRs that are generally determined by thematics and only loosely based on actual challenge. So if you're level 1, you fight kobolds or goblins, while level 10 you might fight golems, and at level 20 you might fight balors. If you look at the monsters at a particular CR, you'll get a rough idea of the type of stories characters of that level should take part in.

[Stille_Nacht]

This isn't going to be perfect, but here goes..

Snip

thanks, this helps a lot. we're actually house-ruling quite heavily, so spellcasters are being "fixed" to not be utterly broken (though still kind of broken) (we'll also tweak various other things, mostly ac items magically appearing, scrolls and wands just not existing, etc.). We'll most likely stop around 10 ish, but who knows 8D


If you want to calibrate D&D power levels, you should ignore mythology and focus on monsters. Monsters have CRs that are generally determined by thematics and only loosely based on actual challenge. So if you're level 1, you fight kobolds or goblins, while level 10 you might fight golems, and at level 20 you might fight balors. If you look at the monsters at a particular CR, you'll get a rough idea of the type of stories characters of that level should take part in.

again, this is for narration purposes. "its a githyanki" can be said in many different ways. so, in this case, i know githyanki should be described like creatures that present a credible threat to the legendary heroes, etc.

[Slipperychicken]

thanks, this helps a lot. we're actually house-ruling quite heavily, so spellcasters are being "fixed" to not be utterly broken (though still kind of broken) (we'll also tweak various other things, mostly ac items magically appearing, scrolls and wands just not existing, etc.). We'll most likely stop around 10 ish, but who knows 8D


Don't go overboard with it. Most groups don't play spellcasters so well as to really be an issue, and even then, many players are willing to show restraint for the sake of fun. Get a feel for how your group uses magic before you do anything extreme like ban scrolls and wands. The chances are good that you might not have to do much "fixing" at all.


EDIT: I say this because I have played with a DM who got scared by stories he read on the internet, and then went overboard with the ban-hammer. It wasn't very fun.

[Chronos]

again, this is for narration purposes. "its a githyanki" can be said in many different ways. so, in this case, i know githyanki should be described like creatures that present a credible threat to the legendary heroes, etc.
Githyanki generally have class levels, so (like the PCs) their power depends on their level. A gith can quite easily present a credible threat to a 20th-level character... if it's 20th level, too.