Who is Ishtar?

[hoff]

I'm not that well versed in d&d deities can anyone explain who is Ishtar and what is the Ishtar crown? And any special reason for a psion to worship Ishtar?

[NerdyKris]

One of the gods in the Western Pantheon. From a google search.


She is the Assyrian goddess of fertility, lover, war, and sex. The rain, being an aid to fertility has been likened to "beautiful pearls, plucked from the crown of Ishtar".

[Bovine Colonel]

A deity that Rich has presumably brought into the setting. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar)

[hoff]

Ah so it's not a d&d deity like tiamat? More like Thor or Odin.

[Zach J.]

To be fair Tiamat was a chaos monster in Messopotamian religion before she was an evil five-headed dragon goddess in D&D

[137beth]

Ah so it's not a d&d deity like tiamat? More like Thor or Odin.

Tiamat is a babylonian goddess. Every D&D setting has a completely different pantheon, and most of them "steal" deities from real-world mythology. They don't all "steal" the same ones, and don't always depict them the same way.
The depiction of Tiamat in OOTS, however, is similar to her depiction in Greyhawk and Planescape, both "official" D&D settings, and differs substantially from her mythological origins.
There isn't really any such thing as a "D&D god", since they vary so much by setting.

Also, in case you are curious, all of the Western Gods in OOTS appear to be Mesopotamian deities. The Southern gods are based on the Chinese Zodiac, the Northern gods are Norse, and the Easter gods are Greek. So if you hear someone on the western continent talking about a deity, chances are it is (at least loosely) based on a Mesopotamian god:smallsmile:


To be fair Tiamat was a chaos monster in Messopotamian religion before she was an evil five-headed dragon goddess in D&D
Well, she appeared in the AD&D Monster Manual, and is Chaotic Evil, so I'd say that her D&D incarnation would also count as a chaos monster:smalltongue:

[Rogar Demonblud]

Ishtar/Inanna is one of the primary deities in the Mesopotamian mythos, and has rulership aspects. So, she wears a crown and is probably the most powerful goddess on the Western Continent.

Incidentally, her sister is Ereshkigal, spouse of Nergal.

There was an article in Dragon that dealt with the Mesopotamian mythos in 3.5 terms, but I can't remember which issue it was.

[hoff]

By D&D god I meant the ones described in the players handbook. I remember being quite a lot of those there, I assumed most of them were not based on real world deities.

I knew that Tiamat was a western god, but I did not knew that she was based on Mesopotamian origins. I assumed Rich pulled her out from the D&D books directly because she is so popular due to the old D&D cartoon. Which brings the question of why hasn't Rich parodied it yet? I mean there is a Final Fantasy 6 and Lord of the Rings parodies in the comic! Why not D&D cartoon parody?

[SavageWombat]

Ran a D&D game using the Babylonian/Sumerian mythos. A lot of the plot based around the fact that modern people (i.e. the PCs) were really, really wrong about Tiamat, the Mother Ocean and source of all life.

[LystAP]

By D&D god I meant the ones described in the players handbook. I remember being quite a lot of those there, I assumed most of them were not based on real world deities.

I think for Giant and the Order-verse in general, most of the gods are real-world entities; although the Southern Gods are based on the Chinese Zodiac.

[137beth]

By D&D god I meant the ones described in the players handbook. I remember being quite a lot of those there, I assumed most of them were not based on real world deities.

All of those were taken from the Greyhawk D&D setting. Those are most certainly not the same gods used in other settings.
Many of them are (very loosely) based on real world deities. Some of them are not.

[CRtwenty]

By D&D god I meant the ones described in the players handbook. I remember being quite a lot of those there, I assumed most of them were not based on real world deities.

I knew that Tiamat was a western god, but I did not knew that she was based on Mesopotamian origins. I assumed Rich pulled her out from the D&D books directly because she is so popular due to the old D&D cartoon.

If you're talking about the 3rd ed PHB the core deities are all from the Greyhawk Campaign Setting.

[karkus]

Ah so it's not a d&d deity like tiamat?

Well which is it. :smallamused:

[Geordnet]

Am I the only one here who first thinks of the Ishtar Gate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar_Gate), that lovely blue edifice of lapis lazuli in Babylon, the heart of Mesopotamian world? :smalltongue:

And though at first I didn't notice Tiamat, since I'd gained some familiarity from secondary sources, as soon as it was said that Marduk (patron diety of Babylon) was the chief deity of the Western Pantheon the pattern was evident to me: loosely based on Mesopotamian deities, but heavily diverging from the original source.

The only other guess I could make for Western deities would be Anu, but then the position of "chief deity" has already been taken, so who knows.

[ti'esar]

I would actually speculate that Rich chose the Mesopotamian deities for the Western Gods specifically because Tiamat (as in the five-headed chromatic dragon) is one of the most iconic D&D deities.

[NerdyKris]

Am I the only one here who first thinks of the Ishtar Gate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar_Gate), that lovely blue edifice of lapis lazuli in Babylon, the heart of Mesopotamian world? :smalltongue:

You do realize that Ishtar Gate is named after the goddess Ishtar, right? :smalltongue:

[Kish]

Well, she appeared in the AD&D Monster Manual, and is Chaotic Evil, so I'd say that her D&D incarnation would also count as a chaos monster:smalltongue:
Bad news. In all the statblocks I ever saw for her, she was Lawful Evil.

[F.Harr]

Am I the only one here who first thinks of the Ishtar Gate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar_Gate), that lovely blue edifice of lapis lazuli in Babylon, the heart of Mesopotamian world? :smalltongue:



So? It's beautiful. Thanks.

[The Oni]

It might be worth mentioning that Ishtar is most famous for being a dangerously jealous lover in The Epic of Gilgamesh, the original Yandere, if you will. When Gilgamesh refused her, she summoned the Bull of Heaven, wrecked Gilgamesh's city and killed his best friend. :smalleek:

[Echobox]

Most of the gods we've seen so far have been based on real-world mythology, adapted to a D&D 'verse. The Northern Gods are Norse, the Western Gods are Babylonian (with Tiamat an apparent fusion of her D&D and real-world sources), the Southern Gods are based on the Chinese Zodiac, and the Eastern Gods were Greek.

The Goblinoid pantheon is unique to OotS, and the currently unseen Elven pantheon may be Burlew's creation, or may draw from D&D's usual contingent of elvish gods.

[Miriel]

Am I the only one here who first thinks of the Ishtar Gate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar_Gate), that lovely blue edifice of lapis lazuli in Babylon, the heart of Mesopotamian world? :smalltongue:
Gate? What gate?

[denthor]

A movie with Warren Beatty and Dustin Hoffin filmed about two amercian musicians that are horrible

Mostly shot in the desert.

[Knight.Anon]

A movie with Warren Beatty and Dustin Hoffin filmed about two amercian musicians that are horrible

Mostly shot in the desert.

So She isn't evil, merely Bad.:smallsmile:

[Bird]

Gate? What gate?

Oooooooohohohoho

[Sir_Leorik]

A movie with Warren Beatty and Dustin Hoffin filmed about two amercian musicians that are horrible

Mostly shot in the desert.

The movie itself is also pretty bad. :smallwink:

[Chronos]

So, what would historical-mythical-Marduk's portfolio have been? What were his symbols?

[SavageWombat]

Depends on whether you want real history or D&D history.

In the real world, Marduk was one of those gods that rose to prominence when his patron decided to go monotheistic.

[Psyren]

Ah so it's not a d&d deity like tiamat? More like Thor or Odin.

I assume by this you mean "she wasn't created specifically for D&D." To which the answer would be no, she is a mythological deity that just happens to be public domain as a result - again, like Thor or Odin.


And any special reason for a psion to worship Ishtar?

Psions can worship any or no deity as they see fit. Further, we don't know if Laurin's oath was indicative of any true piety on her part. It could have been a more cultural exclamation than anything.

[Raenir Salazar]

Tiamat is also/sorta Takhisis from Dragonlance.

[NerdyKris]

I assume by this you mean "she wasn't created specifically for D&D." To which the answer would be no, she is a mythological deity that just happens to be public domain as a result - again, like Thor or Odin.


Just for the record, pretty much all deities are "public domain", unless they were created in the last 100 years.

[Rakoa]

Just for the record, pretty much all deities are "public domain", unless they were created in the last 100 years.

All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

[XanKrieger]

It might be worth mentioning that Ishtar is most famous for being a dangerously jealous lover in The Epic of Gilgamesh, the original Yandere, if you will. When Gilgamesh refused her, she summoned the Bull of Heaven, wrecked Gilgamesh's city and killed his best friend. :smalleek:

Best part of that was after Gilgamesh insulted her based around her past "relationships" and refused her. She went to her father/chief Deity and he more or less said "So, all of that is true".

[Psyren]

Just for the record, pretty much all deities are "public domain", unless they were created in the last 100 years.

Some however are Product Identity. For example, the Giant couldn't make Pelor, Lathander or Sarenrae deities in OotS - not without drastically altering them anyway, and it would be dangerous to try even then.

[NerdyKris]

I meant real world religious deities specifically, sorry. Not copyrighted characters from fictional works.

[Psyren]

I meant real world religious deities specifically, sorry. Not copyrighted characters from fictional works.

In that case, that's what I was saying. Mythological deities like Ishtar are public domain, deities created for this or that game are not.

[Sir_Leorik]

Can we keep the discussion of the Western Pantheon to their appearance in the strip or how they are used in the D&D game?

Takhisis is based on D&D Tiamat, and she may have been intended to be an aspect of of D&D Tiamat, but there are way too many differences for that to be true anymore. Takhisis is much more powerful than D&D Tiamat, she prefers to manifest in humanoid form when she can, she is not as purely Lawful Evil as D&D Tiamat is, and Takhisis happens to have been killed at the end of the "War of Souls" trilogy. They're not the same. On the other hand Greyhawk Lolth and Forgotten Realms Lloth/Lolth are aspects of the same deity. The proof is the portals to many different alternate Prime Material Worlds found in the Demonweb Pits in "Q1: Queen of the Demonweb Pits".

Some of the older AD&D sourcebooks had stats for Marduk, Ishtar and other deities based on Babylonian and Persian mythology. Check the 2E "Legends & Lore" for the most recent game stats for their Avatars. The 3.0 "Deities & Demigods" sourcebook did not discuss the Babylonian or Persian pantheons.

[NerdyKris]

In that case, that's what I was saying. Mythological deities like Ishtar are public domain, deities created for this or that game are not.

Ah, I misread you then. :smalltongue:

[Caex]

If we want to look at Ishtar in a D&D context, Dragon Magazine #329 has a nice Mesopotamian Pantheon which includes her. There she is listed as a chaotic neutral intermediate goddess with a focus on the passions, particularly love and war. "She is the patron of lovers, harlots, marriage, and pregnancy. However, she is also the patron of warlords and conquerors." That last part fits well with this group, though her chaotic nature and focus on the passions do not necessarily sit well for a person operating behind the scenes to manipulate the situation. One could make the argument that Team Tarquin is mostly shown actively manipulating the passions of others, though.

Of course, in that same pantheon Nergal is listed as Chaotic Evil, naturally excluding very Lawful Malack from his clergy, so it is clear we can't tie it too well into this setting.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Thor's Chaotic Good, and yet had Lawful Good Durkon among his priests.

[kpenguin]

Can we keep the discussion of the Western Pantheon to their appearance in the strip or how they are used in the D&D game?

The Modguin: Good idea. Try to steer the discussion away from real life religious/mythological entities and restrict it to fictional contexts please.

[Caex]

Thor's Chaotic Good, and yet had Lawful Good Durkon among his priests.

I had taken that to mean that OotS Thor is not Chaotic Good, rather than that a core element of the cleric class (the alignment restriction) was altered without explanation. Of course, that is purely speculation on my part; if we were to believe that both Thor and Nergal aligned closely with the ones in published D&D material (an official Wizards 3.0 sourcebook and Dragon magazine, respectively), then being devoted but very lawful clerics of chaotic deities could be something that Durkon and Malack bonded over.

[JSSheridan]

It's an anagram for Trisha.

But I don't know of one in this comic.

[Sir_Leorik]

I had taken that to mean that OotS Thor is not Chaotic Good, rather than that a core element of the cleric class (the alignment restriction) was altered without explanation. Of course, that is purely speculation on my part; if we were to believe that both Thor and Nergal aligned closely with the ones in published D&D material (an official Wizards 3.0 sourcebook and Dragon magazine, respectively), then being devoted but very lawful clerics of chaotic deities could be something that Durkon and Malack bonded over.

Not all material published in Dragon Magazine during the 3E period was considered "100% Official D&D Content". At best an article in "Dragon" was considered slightly more authoritative than a Mongoose or Green Ronin d20 sourcebook. The main exceptions were when WotC specifically endorsed the article, either by republishing part of it in a splatbook, or by referring to it in a published product or on the WotC website.

As for OotS Thor... yeah, he's probably Chaotic Good, but he could allow Lawful Good Dwarves to become his Clerics, since they believe in honor, hammers, beer and fighting against the arborean menace. :smallamused:

[137beth]

I believe there are exceptions to the one-step rule, decided by individual deities. Thor in OOTS may very well make such an exception.

[Sky_Schemer]

A movie with Warren Beatty and Dustin Hoffin filmed about two amercian musicians that are horrible

Mostly shot in the desert.

It is two hours of my childhood that I will never get back.

[Bartle]

Ishtar is also related to Astarte, Astaroth, and Artemis. Etymologically, the name(s) may be related to "star".

[Miriel]

Etymologically, the name(s) may be related to "star".

[citation needed]

Since it is a Semitic word and "star" derives from an Indo-European stem (cf. latin stella, german Stern), I shall remain skeptical.

I don't know about the others, but I wasn't aware of any such interpretation on Artemis. I understand one popular interpretation is that it derives from the Greek word for "bear" (arktos, IIRC).

[allenw]

Ishtar is also related to Astarte, Astaroth, and Artemis. Etymologically, the name(s) may be related to "star".

Also (perhaps) "Easter".
Citation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter#Etymology) Also: American Gods by Neil Gaiman. :smallcool:

[Rogar Demonblud]

Easter comes from Ostern, the fertility festival of the pagan German spring goddess Ostera. There should be umlauts over those 'O's, but my computer isn't cooperating today.

Medieval English types assumed the 'Ost' meant 'east', hence Easter.

[TroubleBrewing]

Also (perhaps) "Easter".
Citation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter#Etymology) Also: American Gods by Neil Gaiman. :smallcool:

*Shudder*. So excited for the third part of that story.

[malloyd]

[citation needed]

Since it is a Semitic word and "star" derives from an Indo-European stem (cf. latin stella, german Stern), I shall remain skeptical.

I don't know about the others, but I wasn't aware of any such interpretation on Artemis. I understand one popular interpretation is that it derives from the Greek word for "bear" (arktos, IIRC).

The proto-Semitic root for star is probably something like KBK, so yeah, the goddesses names are likely unrelated to star. A relationship between Ishtar, Artemis and Easter isn't implausible though. Keep in mind the historical goddess Artemis/Diana wasn't much like the modern portrayal as a maiden huntress at all. She's essentially a mother goddess at Ephesus (likely her most important temple) for instance.

[Rogar Demonblud]

She's also associated with the bear cult of northern pre-Greece (in her Callisto aspect), which would be a Mother/Nymph aspect, and is also a plague/death goddess, which is a Crone/Elder aspect traditionally.

As per usual, she's a triune.

[Sir_Leorik]

She's also associated with the bear cult of northern pre-Greece (in her Callisto aspect), which would be a Mother/Nymph aspect, and is also a plague/death goddess, which is a Crone/Elder aspect traditionally.

As per usual, she's a triune.

But which Domains does she grant?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Depends on Edition. Her AD&D1E version is a lot less cuddly in the sphere selection than the 3E version is with the Domains allowed.

[Sir_Leorik]

Depends on Edition. Her AD&D1E version is a lot less cuddly in the sphere selection than the 3E version is with the Domains allowed.

If I remember correctly, the version of Artemis in the 3.0 "Deities & Demigods" sourcebook was very similar to the version of Ehlonna in the same book. The main differences were that Artemis, like the rest of the Olympian Pantheon, were Large Outsiders by default (with the option to resize themselves to Medium when dealing with Humanoids) and she had an association with the moon, while Ehlonna had Elf traits and focused on nature in general. Otherwise their portfolios overlapped a great deal when it came to archery, hunting and similar areas.

[Bartle]

[citation needed]

Since it is a Semitic word and "star" derives from an Indo-European stem (cf. latin stella, german Stern), I shall remain skeptical.

I don't know about the others, but I wasn't aware of any such interpretation on Artemis. I understand one popular interpretation is that it derives from the Greek word for "bear" (arktos, IIRC).Wikipedia agrees on "arktos" being Greek for "bear".

I was told the "star" connection by a (increasingly-proven unreliable) source, and should've fact-checked it first. Thanks (and to others) for the info!

[Sir_Leorik]

Wikipedia agrees on "arktos" being Greek for "bear".

I was told the "star" connection by a (increasingly-proven unreliable) source, and should've fact-checked it first. Thanks (and to others) for the info!

So D&D Artemis sends bears as Divine Allies? Is that what you're saying? :smallconfused:

[Bartle]

So D&D Artemis sends bears as Divine Allies? Is that what you're saying? :smallconfused:Not at all.

[Mad Humanist]

All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

Of course fundamentalist pastafarians claim that the flying spagetthi monster has always existed. He was simply hiding and pirates weren't talking about him.

[Rand Race]

The etymological root Ishtar derives from probably has to do with irrigation. Something like "she who waters".

http://www.jstor.org/stable/3087504?seq=1

[SaintRidley]

Anyone have Ishtar's domains in D&D handy? It'd be interesting to get an idea what Shattersmith might like about her that way.

[Caex]

Not all material published in Dragon Magazine during the 3E period was considered "100% Official D&D Content". At best an article in "Dragon" was considered slightly more authoritative than a Mongoose or Green Ronin d20 sourcebook. The main exceptions were when WotC specifically endorsed the article, either by republishing part of it in a splatbook, or by referring to it in a published product or on the WotC website.

As for OotS Thor... yeah, he's probably Chaotic Good, but he could allow Lawful Good Dwarves to become his Clerics, since they believe in honor, hammers, beer and fighting against the arborean menace. :smallamused:

Regarding Dragon magazine: Yeah, that's why I specifically noted what part of my info I was drawing from an official sourcebook (albeit a 3.0 one) and what part came from the magazine. I figured published by someone licensed by WotC meant marginally more legitimate than some random third party splatbook ... which, now that I look at it, is exactly what you said. So, agreed.

Regarding Thor: His actions that we've seen in comic do seem more chaotic than lawful, though up to this point I'd been chalking that up to the comic-relief nature of his appearances. Are there any significant examples of D&D deities that allow a wider alignment range for their clerics than normal? The only modified case I can think of off the top of my head is St. Cuthbert, who narrowed his range by not accepting evil clerics, only LN & LG.


Anyone have Ishtar's domains in D&D handy? It'd be interesting to get an idea what Shattersmith might like about her that way.

That Dragon magazine edition (the only D&D stuff I have handy on her) made her domains Animals, Trickery, Chaos, and War.

[Kish]

Are there any significant examples of D&D deities that allow a wider alignment range for their clerics than normal?
Not that I'm aware of. In the Forgotten Realms, which has the variant rule that every member class with even minimal divine spellcasting must have a specific patron god, there's Sune Firehair, who is a Chaotic Good god who nonetheless has paladins. This is commonly misquoted as her having Chaotic Good paladins...but no, she has standard Lawful Good paladins; she's just the only Chaotic Realms deity who does.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So, what would historical-mythical-Marduk's portfolio have been? What were his symbols?

I looked up the Dragon article, so here's the short version of 3.5 Marduk.

Marduk, Lesser God, Lawful Good, Portfolio of 'Defense Against Evil', Domains are Fire, Law, Luck, War, Favored Weapon is a net

He's the son of Ea/Enki (wise god of fresh water) and slayer of Tiamat (hence the net, which he used to snare her). He also has two faces.

Holy symbol is not mentioned, but that was pretty much a riff on Catholicism and every saint having their own icon, so it doesn't really fit ancient Sumeria/Ur/Chaldees.

[warrl]

I believe there are exceptions to the one-step rule, decided by individual deities. Thor in OOTS may very well make such an exception.

It isn't hard to imagine a Chaotic deity making - or taking - exceptions to rules.

-----------

I once - briefly, the online game died - played an LG Paladin of a CG deity. The character sheet was built by the DM and had a few other oddities as well. So I put it that neither my character nor the leaders of the Order that ran the Chapterhouse where I was trained - consisting, as one would expect, of LG Paladins and Clerics of LG deities - had any idea why my god wanted an LG Paladin, or why their gods told them to take me in and train me.

[Arcite]

Hi all... I actually really like Ishtar.

In 1E, she was listed as Neutral, with worshipers as All Alignments. Sadly, the Babylonians didn't make it into 2E.

But get this! She lived in Elysium, the center-most Neutral Good plane. So I always took that as at least an indication that she might be fairly nice and Good leaning to live there. After all, even though she is a goddess of war, I think being a goddess of love is a defining portfolio and a positive thing.

There is another tidbit. In 1E Manual of the Planes, her home in Elysium is near the home of the goddess Isis (who, among many things, can be a love goddess as well). There is a brief passage saying they don't have conflicts, but they do have occasional rivalries, particularly about love.

That little blurb really captured my imagination way back when. I like to see Ishtar and Isis as friendly rivals, trying to out love-goddess each other, and sometimes chasing after the same romantic interests. And even competing on the mortal world, trying to raise their river cities to the best. But still going to each others' parties :)

That's stretching back to 1E and extrapolating from the scarce fluff given back then. I don't think we can conclude much about Laurin's alignment from that. Especially adding in that real-life Ishtar was pretty mixed and sometimes not so nice.

But anyway, that is kind of my softer 1E picture of Ishtar, on the weight of Elysium. She is a neat, passionate god: love and war in one package! Sometimes a bow wielding, armored warrioress in a chariot drawn by magic lions, and sometimes a very unarmored lusty sweetheart!

[Sir_Leorik]

Hi all... I actually really like Ishtar.

In 1E, she was listed as Neutral, with worshipers as All Alignments. Sadly, the Babylonians didn't make it into 2E.

But get this! She lived in Elysium, the center-most Neutral Good plane. So I always took that as at least an indication that she might be fairly nice and Good leaning to live there. After all, even though she is a goddess of war, I think being a goddess of love is a defining portfolio and a positive thing.

There is another tidbit. In 1E Manual of the Planes, her home in Elysium is near the home of the goddess Isis (who, among many things, can be a love goddess as well). There is a brief passage saying they don't have conflicts, but they do have occasional rivalries, particularly about love.

That little blurb really captured my imagination way back when. I like to see Ishtar and Isis as friendly rivals, trying to out love-goddess each other, and sometimes chasing after the same romantic interests. And even competing on the mortal world, trying to raise their river cities to the best. But still going to each others' parties :)

That's stretching back to 1E and extrapolating from the scarce fluff given back then. I don't think we can conclude much about Laurin's alignment from that. Especially adding in that real-life Ishtar was pretty mixed and sometimes not so nice.

But anyway, that is kind of my softer 1E picture of Ishtar, on the weight of Elysium. She is a neat, passionate god: love and war in one package! Sometimes a bow wielding, armored warrioress in a chariot drawn by magic lions, and sometimes a very unarmored lusty sweetheart!

There might be material about Ishtar in any of the 2E Planescape supplements, especially "On Hallowed Grounds", which focuses on the "Powers", or "Planes of Conflict", which focused on the Ethically Neutral Planes (which would include Elysium).