Space Marines vs Terminators (hint: Arnold-esque)

[gooddragon1]

If a battle barge came upon the battlefield shown in the first terminator movie in a flashback what would they do assuming they had to rescue as many humans as possible and (if possible) stop skynet? How would they prevent attempts at skynet hacking their equipment?

[Emperor Ing]

As superstitious as the Mechanicus is regarding the Imperium's technology, there is truth in their actions. Even the Guardsman learns to treat the machine spirits with respect or they will knock your blocks off (oh, those are some nice orks charging your front line. It would be a shame if your lasgun somehow...jammed.) This mechanism, and especially considering that the Imperium's technology is more advanced than Skynet's, i'd say that it's not really possible for the Termies to do much before REAL termies come down on their teleporters and blow these Abominable Intelligence constructs apart with their handheld automatic rocket-launchers.

put simply, Spess Mareenz win. No contest.

[gooddragon1]

As superstitious as the Mechanicus is regarding the Imperium's technology, there is truth in their actions. Even the Guardsman learns to treat the machine spirits with respect or they will knock your blocks off (oh, those are some nice orks charging your front line. It would be a shame if your lasgun somehow...jammed.) This mechanism, and especially considering that the Imperium's technology is more advanced than Skynet's, i'd say that it's not really possible for the Termies to do much before REAL termies come down on their teleporters and blow these Abominable Intelligence constructs apart with their handheld automatic rocket-launchers.

put simply, Spess Mareenz win. No contest.

But do they manage to rescue the people with minimal casualties too?

[Emperor Ing]

But do they manage to rescue the people with minimal casualties too?

Hahahahahahahahaah :smallbiggrin:

*ahem* I think that's highly unlikely. Truth be told it'll vary heavily on what chapter is being sent. Space Wolves would probably do something to evacuate civilians while the Flesh Tearers may not be so keen on it.

[HamHam]

If a battle barge came upon the battlefield shown in the first terminator movie in a flashback what would they do assuming they had to rescue as many humans as possible and (if possible) stop skynet? How would they prevent attempts at skynet hacking their equipment?

The Imperium hates AI. Basically none of their equipment can be hacked because it's all by intention analogue.

And Terminators go down a lot easier then Necrons.

But really they would just invoke Exterminatus and nuke the whole thing from orbit.

[gooddragon1]

But really they would just invoke Exterminatus and nuke the whole thing from orbit.

They have to try to rescue the people first.

[Tanuki Tales]

They have to try to rescue the people first.

They'd probably consider that rescuing them.

[Cheesegear]

If a battle barge came upon the battlefield shown in the first terminator movie in a flashback what would they do assuming they had to rescue as many humans as possible and (if possible) stop skynet?

An entire Chapter has lots and lots and lots of access to Plasma- and Melta-based weaponry. Essentially they are guns that shoot lava. It's a cakewalk as far as destroying Terminators go. Second, Terminators already exist in 40K, called Necrons. Necrons are dealt with on a regular basis by Space Marines. Destroying Terminators is easy.

Next problem. Rescuing as many humans as possible. Can as many as possible = 0? Several Chapters would Bombard the planet without thinking if the problem is serious. If an actual attempt is made, well, they start killing Terminators en masse. Should they fail, or the Terminators prove too durable...Glass the planet. If Marines can't stop something, Exterminatus is enacted. With many situations, the only reason Exterminatus doesn't get called in immediately is because of a planet's strategic value or resources.
Is the planet useful? No. Is the planet over-run? Yes. Then, ignite the atmosphere.

[gooddragon1]

An entire Chapter has lots and lots and lots of access to Plasma- and Melta-based weaponry. Essentially they are guns that shoot lava. It's a cakewalk as far as destroying Terminators go. Second, Terminators already exist in 40K, called Necrons. Necrons are dealt with on a regular basis by Space Marines. Destroying Terminators is easy.

Next problem. Rescuing as many humans as possible. Can as many as possible = 0? Several Chapters would Bombard the planet without thinking if the problem is serious. If an actual attempt is made, well, they start killing Terminators en masse. Should they fail, or the Terminators prove too durable...Glass the planet. If Marines can't stop something, Exterminatus is enacted. With many situations, the only reason Exterminatus doesn't get called in immediately is because of a planet's strategic value or resources.
Is the planet useful? No. Is the planet over-run? Yes. Then, ignite the atmosphere.

But John Connor has strategic value... he can help to defeat the... oh right...

Okay. Then the emperor of mankind is with them and he orders them to try and save as many as possible.

Bonus Question: Do the space marines decide to value John Connor's tenacity enough to initiate him as a space marine?

[HamHam]

Is inter dimensionhnal travel actually involved here? Because if they actually recognized it as Holy Terra glassing it would probably be off the table. Or they would glass it for being heresy and perversion. Not sure which.

[LOTRfan]

Aren't Space Marines genetically engineered? I mean, I can't really see them making John Connor a Space Marine.

[Cheesegear]

Okay. Then the emperor of mankind is with them and he orders them to try and save as many as possible.

The local PDF and a nearby Guard regiment hold out for as long as possible until a Space Marine Fleet can arrive - The Minotaurs are here! The Minotaurs start smashing the crap out of the Terminator forces, but, with the Terminators' ability to keep coming back again and again and again, the Minotaurs ultimately reach 60% losses to their Chapter and begin evacuating the Sector. With the Minotaurs pulling out, the Imperium says 'either we get more Marines, or we glass the System'. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Orphean_War#.UhhL49Kmjop)


Do the space marines decide to value John Connor's tenacity enough to initiate him as a space marine?

In Terminator 2, John Connor is 10/11 years old. His age limit is right. But the fact that he hasn't grown up on a Death World, or spent his entire life training how to murder other people, probably not.

[tyckspoon]

Aren't Space Marines genetically engineered? I mean, I can't really see them making John Connor a Space Marine.

Yeah, it's a procedure that is usually initiated just before/in the beginning stages of puberty and then carried out through several years as the Marine candidate goes through teenagerdom - the Marine transformation process piggybacks on the growth going on in puberty to help its changes grow and be accepted by the body. You can't do it to an adult subject (or at least, you can't do it safely within the known medical science of the modern 40k world.) If John Connor was recognized as worthy of commendation in some way, he might receive..

A referral for a commission to the Imperial Guard to become an officer.
An offer (or a press-ganging, depending on Chapter) to become one of the intervening Chapter's non-Marine support staff (ie, he gets the huge honor of cleaning the tables after dinner and making sure the barrels of gun and armor oil are clean. Cleaning the equipment itself is something the Marines do themselves and take very, very seriously.)
An individual callout on the memorial the Marines raise in respect of the valiant human Resistance that sadly had to be sacrificed when the Marines Exterminatus the AI uprising. His name might even be in a half-point larger print size compared to the listing of 'ten thousand Humans, names unknown.'

[The Glyphstone]

[URL="http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Orphean_War#.UhhL49Kmjop"]
In Terminator 2, John Connor is 10/11 years old. His age limit is right. But the fact that he hasn't grown up on a Death World, or spent his entire life training how to murder other people, probably not.

I'd consider the post-Skynet Earth to be Death World-level nasty, and he's spent his entire childhood life training how to murder evil robots. But if they're showing up post-Rise of the Machines, he's too old for the Marine treatments.

[paddyfool]

OK... let's do a few things to even the odds.

- Let's say the battlebarge got to this divergent time and reality by some freak, apparently one-time phenomenon, that for the time being cuts off all connections with the 40k verse, warp etc. (So no calling in support from the vast logistical resources of the Imperium, and no psychic powers, since the latter would give the Marines a vast intel advantage and nullify the terminators' ability to infiltrate etc.)

- Let's rule out exterminatus. Maybe the battlebarge is crippled, maybe it crashlands, maybe it simply doesn't have any of the necessary weaponry (virus bombs, cyclonic torpedoes, planetbusters etc.) in stock at the moment.

If crippled, you'll end up with a situation of them realising this is an alternate Terra, the planet below being scanned, then reconned with smaller vessels, locals being interrogated, and the further realisation that there are no humans anywhere elsewhere in this verse making it a valuable resource. Cue wiping out the terminators while actually trying not to wipe out humans too much. The terminators are at something of a major disadvantage, since even a crippled battlebarge should be damn hard for them to attack from the Earth of that day, giving the marines something of an impregnable position to attack from. Their best chance of getting aboard the battlebarge and doing damage there is via infiiltration, and that's unlikely to happen if the marines get intel on this capacity from any resistance fighters first.

If they're merely out of stock on Exterminatus-grade weaponry, cue a much faster and messier curbstomp due to orbital bombardment with their conventional weaponry of a planetbound opponent.

If they crashland, it gets more interesting, since all of both sides' resources are then at stakes in the game. And while the marines will be individually more effective, there'll be limited numbers of them and the chapter serfs etc. are merely peak humans with nice toys. Also, they can expect to get caught out by terminator infiltrators, since Skynet would be sure to secure the area around the crash-site as an immediate priority, meaning that many/most of the first local humans they're likely to capture and interrogate would likely be terminators in disguise... and then it gets very messy indeed, because Skynet is smart. Also, while a grounded battlebarge should make a very effective fortress, it would be far easier to attack on the ground than one in space. And every marine that falls is irreplacable, while Skynet can keep churning out the terminators.

So yeah, if you rig this enough, it does get interesting.

[Selrahc]

But do they manage to rescue the people with minimal casualties too?

These people have been living under the rule of an Abominable Intelligence.
They have no knowledge of the Emperor or his beneficence.
They were in part responsible for the creation of this "Skynet", their doom is of their own making.
They have access to temporal technology banned by the Ordos Chronos.

They need to be executed. Not saved.

[shadow_archmagi]

The Imperium hates AI. Basically none of their equipment can be hacked because it's all by intention analogue.


Incorrect. "Machine Spirits" are a fairly common thing, and a wide variety of weapons are computerized to some degree, as evidenced by their capacity for being controlled via cybernetics.

Furthermore, servitors *can* be hacked- In the Rogue Trader RPG, Arch-Hereteks can learn a special ability that allows them to seize control of creatures with the [machine] subtype (hilariously, this includes heavily augmented techpriests.) for short periods.

In the novel Titanicus, there's a scene where a lesser techpriest is attempting a coup, and one of the higher-ranking techpriests unleashes a flurry of code that causes his (Skitarii? Servitors? Unsure) to temporarily start murdering each other.

[SoC175]

They have to try to rescue the people first.Sorry, can't hear you, all the high ranking inquisitors are laughing to loud :smallbiggrin:

[paddyfool]

These people have been living under the rule of an Abominable Intelligence.
They have no knowledge of the Emperor or his beneficence.
They were in part responsible for the creation of this "Skynet", their doom is of their own making.
They have access to temporal technology banned by the Ordos Chronos.

They need to be executed. Not saved.

On the other hand, in my tweak to this scenario:
- They're the only human resource available to the people on the battlebarge besides themselves.
- They're entirely free of warp taint
- They're probably free of xenos taint (but see below)
- Knowledge of the Emperor can be taught
- Their access to temporal technology would probably not be immediately clear
- The history of their world likewise; in fact, the terminators might well be first mistaken for an alternate version of the necrons or some other outside invader

[Cheesegear]

The problem with the scenario is that you're utterly crippling the Marines and most - if not all - of the aspects that make them the superior force that they are.

No Battlebarges or Orbital support. Marines have to rely on man-portable weapons. Again, this includes guns that shoot lava, and in two weeks time, Marines will have access to gravity weapons which will ruin Terminators. Depending on just how amazing you consider Sternguard, a proper Company of them could kill a whole messload of Terminators on their own.

The Marines are forced to Care. The humans must be saved. You know what makes Marines scary? They don't do anything except murder aliens. And they're really good at it. When you dilute that objective, the Marines become significantly less effective. Marines aren't allowed to say 'F* it' and bail and glass the planet. This is what makes the Imperium scary. When they're losing, they blow up the planet rather than let it Fall. That's how the Imperium stays strong, by cutting the weak links.

No Librarians. The Marines are now susceptible to all sorts of civilian stupidity on the ground. This is probably the thing that will cripple them the most, since it's exactly how the Horus Heresy started. The problem is, once the Marines find a human Infiltrator, they would put the world to the sword on the off chance that there are more - which there are more Infiltrators, so they're not wrong.


Marine are 'The Final Solution'. If you make a scenario where they aren't, then they aren't.

[The Glyphstone]

Any attempts at infiltration are likely to go poorly against any Marine with an Auspex, which is roughly one in every 10 of them. The infiltration Terminators are designed to fool resistance humans - remember that dogs could recognize the early models. The synthetic skin coating isn't likely to be able to hide their complete lack of life signs or metallic to 40K personal scanners (I doubt it would be able to hide the endoskeleton from a 20th century metal detector).

[paddyfool]

Any attempts at infiltration are likely to go poorly against any Marine with an Auspex, which is roughly one in every 10 of them. The infiltration Terminators are designed to fool resistance humans - remember that dogs could recognize the early models. The synthetic skin coating isn't likely to be able to hide their complete lack of life signs or metallic to 40K personal scanners (I doubt it would be able to hide the endoskeleton from a 20th century metal detector).

Doh! Of course. So with that little addition, on all settings I've envisioned, this becomes a bit of a curbstomp for the Marines.


The problem with the scenario is that you're utterly crippling the Marines and most - if not all - of the aspects that make them the superior force that they are.

No Battlebarges or Orbital support. Marines have to rely on man-portable weapons. Again, this includes guns that shoot lava, and in two weeks time, Marines will have access to gravity weapons which will ruin Terminators. Depending on just how amazing you consider Sternguard, a proper Company of them could kill a whole messload of Terminators on their own.

The Marines are forced to Care. The humans must be saved. You know what makes Marines scary? They don't do anything except murder aliens. And they're really good at it. When you dilute that objective, the Marines become significantly less effective. Marines aren't allowed to say 'F* it' and bail and glass the planet. This is what makes the Imperium scary. When they're losing, they blow up the planet rather than let it Fall. That's how the Imperium stays strong, by cutting the weak links.

No Librarians. The Marines are now susceptible to all sorts of civilian stupidity on the ground. This is probably the thing that will cripple them the most, since it's exactly how the Horus Heresy started. The problem is, once the Marines find a human Infiltrator, they would put the world to the sword on the off chance that there are more - which there are more Infiltrators, so they're not wrong.

Marine are 'The Final Solution'. If you make a scenario where they aren't, then they aren't.

I'd disagree. The Marines are being given a more complex set of objectives than simply "exterminate the xenos", but that doesn't stop them being what they are and acting in a suitably ruthless fashion. Anyway, even with all the limitations I put in, the simple fact that they aren't going to be fooled by infiltrators, as pointed out by the Glyphstone, makes this a kurbstomp.

[Emperor Ing]

If their commanders WERE to place value of human life over the extermination of the Abominable Intelligences (Hilarious, I know, I know) then it would be easier to just destroy SkyNet and leave the humans to rebuild with Ecclesiastical missionaries and/or Techpriests.

Furthermore i'd say giving Terminators Necron-level toughness and potency is extremely generous. I kinda see them as being Guardsmen with Know No Fear and maybe a bit more toughness.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Guys, guys, remember, bombardment isn't the only method of Exterminatus (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Samus). And there's a chance the planet won't blow up behind her!

[Killer Angel]

Necrons are dealt with on a regular basis by Space Marines. Destroying Terminators is easy.


SMs also die on a regular basis, fighting necrons.
Of course, Necrons play in a different League than terminators.


Sorry, can't hear you, all the high ranking inquisitors are laughing to loud :smallbiggrin:

It's already almost a curbstomp, so please avoid this. It seems stupid, but the orders are to save those worthless civilians.
The inquisitors will obey, probably they'll think they need to investigate a new type of Chaotic corruption and that those humans will be purged later with fire, after collecting the infos.

[hamishspence]

The synthetic skin coating isn't likely to be able to hide their complete lack of life signs or metallic to 40K personal scanners (I doubt it would be able to hide the endoskeleton from a 20th century metal detector).

It doesn't in Terminator novels, at least.

[HamHam]

No but seriously, Terminator weapons are utterly primitive compared to 40k standards. You drop a single Astartes with no guns and he still wins. Might take him a while to break every last one with his bare hands, but being immortal he's got the time.

[Emperor Ing]

Guys, guys, remember, bombardment isn't the only method of Exterminatus (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Samus). And there's a chance the planet won't blow up behind her!

Dude, you gotta admit. Sending a Primarch in is probably overkill.

[Trixie]

No Battlebarges or Orbital support. Marines have to rely on man-portable weapons. Again, this includes guns that shoot lava, and in two weeks time, Marines will have access to gravity weapons which will ruin Terminators.

Shoot lava? :smallconfused:

That is original description, but anyway, to not dispute semantics, aren't meltaguns one of these things they 'lost' instruction papers for? Things company is lucky to have enough to arm one man per squad? Unless you're SW, of course. Not something everyone carries.

Gravity guns? Um, do you mean these corroded bits of metal kept behind bars for last ten millennia because Primarch sneezed on it once? Because that is about the only example of graviton gun most chapters will ever see, if they're lucky enough to see one.


The Marines are forced to Care. The humans must be saved. You know what makes Marines scary? They don't do anything except murder aliens. And they're really good at it. When you dilute that objective, the Marines become significantly less effective.

Sooo... Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Raven Guard and dozens of their descendants are completely ineffective? :smallconfused:

Because all of the above were willing to start shooting war with other imperial factions over the humans they supposedly don't care about. Hell, in Lamenters case, it took ritual suicide of people they were trying to save (to free marines out of obligation so their saviours aren't annihilated defending them) to get them out of the way of complete obliteration. Yeah...


Marines aren't allowed to say 'F* it' and bail and glass the planet. This is what makes the Imperium scary. When they're losing, they blow up the planet rather than let it Fall. That's how the Imperium stays strong, by cutting the weak links.

So all these hundreds of crusades reclaiming lost imperial worlds doesn't exist now? Tau Empire is full of dead worlds? Gaunts Ghosts don't spend dozen books fighting on ex-Imperial worlds? Cain was glassed instead of titled 'Liberator' by leading rebellion on fallen Imperial world? Pardon? :smallconfused:


No Librarians. The Marines are now susceptible to all sorts of civilian stupidity on the ground. This is probably the thing that will cripple them the most, since it's exactly how the Horus Heresy started.

Poor Black Templars, 10 millennia of blundering into mistakes thanks to never taking Librarians for a ride. So, you say they mended their heretical ways and started taking them in? :smalltongue:


Any attempts at infiltration are likely to go poorly against any Marine with an Auspex, which is roughly one in every 10 of them. The infiltration Terminators are designed to fool resistance humans - remember that dogs could recognize the early models. The synthetic skin coating isn't likely to be able to hide their complete lack of life signs or metallic to 40K personal scanners (I doubt it would be able to hide the endoskeleton from a 20th century metal detector).

That was early models. Every movie model from T1 to T3 was better in infiltrating in some respects. We can't say if auspex would detect them, as these range in stories from 'instantly analyse chemical composition' to '1940s level night vision device, as we are dumb and managed to lose all better tech'.

By the way, that bit about metal detectors, if true, is yet another example of writer stupidity, as pretty good methods of fooling metal detector were made decades ago, what, Skynet doesn't have copy of future Wikipedia? :smallconfused:


Furthermore i'd say giving Terminators Necron-level toughness and potency is extremely generous. I kinda see them as being Guardsmen with Know No Fear and maybe a bit more toughness.

Plasma rifles, also, in games they have skeletons with hard coded chance of hand grenade doing nothing to them (IIRC, 50%) explained as great immunity to shockwaves. Which is incidentally equivalent of main weapon marines use.


No but seriously, Terminator weapons are utterly primitive compared to 40k standards. You drop a single Astartes with no guns and he still wins. Might take him a while to break every last one with his bare hands, but being immortal he's got the time.

Yeah, all these advanced plasma rifles are sooo primitive :smallsigh:

Even if we make them worse than WH40K one in every respect S6 AP3 still kills Marines just fine. Hell, even if it is really inferior S5 AP4 plasma rifle is still far and away better than bolter or even heavy bolter. It can't be worse than that as in most depictions it is better than Tau pulse rifles, itself better than bolters.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Furthermore i'd say giving Terminators Necron-level toughness and potency is extremely generous. I kinda see them as being Guardsmen with Know No Fear and maybe a bit more toughness.

Its actually more like the Necron's having Terminator level toughness. :smallwink:

We'll Be Back!

[Tyndmyr]

Its actually more like the Necron's having Terminator level toughness. :smallwink:

We'll Be Back!

Pretty much. Sounds like a straight up Necrons vs SM matchup in 40k. Fun times for all.

Well, unless you rely on the movie "they're all controlled centrally" bs. I'd rather just forget that entirely, though.

[Emperor Ing]

Plasma rifles
Really, those are probably the equivalent of 40k Lasguns.

And those metal bodies? Could they stop a .75 caliber diamantium-tipped self-propelled projectile that explodes with the force of a hand grenade (or possibly more?) Terminator 4 established that they can be stopped by the equivalent of a Heavy Stubber, I think an Astartes Bolter would be more than sufficient.

[GloatingSwine]

Furthermore i'd say giving Terminators Necron-level toughness and potency is extremely generous. I kinda see them as being Guardsmen with Know No Fear and maybe a bit more toughness.

Considering a homemade pipebomb blew one in half, they're nowhere near the toughness of the Necrons, which would have just ignored something like that (and any scarring to the necrodermis would just regenerate anyway).

I'd be surprised if you needed the force an entire Battle Barge could bring to this to destroy Skynet's ground forces and terminate it. A company level force at most, with vehicle support, would be able to flatten the Machines before they knew what was going on, and just count on the humans to hide until it was over (which they basically do anyway) whereupon the missionaries of the Ecclesiarchy can bring the Emperor's light unto them.

Whether they like it or not.


(Hell, a tactical squad would probably win, albeit they'd have to do so using the same kind of guerilla tactics the resistance is already using, just far more effectively because they can basically ignore all but the biggest of Skynet's weapons and trivially defeat its forces when forced into engagement)

[Wardog]

Really, those are probably the equivalent of 40k Lasguns.

Possibly slightly better than lasguns, as lasguns are generally described as equivilent to autoguns (which are basically modern assault rifles). Maybe hotshot lasguns or hellguns or the like.

But you're right - they're definitely not equivilent to 40k plasma guns. Lots of SF has "plasma" weapons, but there is pretty much no consistency in what "plasma" actually does between settings. (40k: shoots miniture suns that can pretty much destroy anything; Terminator: better than contemporary firearms; Bablyon 5: used on board spaceships/stations specifically because they don't penetrate the walls).



And those metal bodies? Could they stop a .75 caliber diamantium-tipped self-propelled projectile that explodes with the force of a hand grenade (or possibly more?) Terminator 4 established that they can be stopped by the equivalent of a Heavy Stubber, I think an Astartes Bolter would be more than sufficient.

Well, ignoring the penetrator, they probably have (according to Trixie) a 50% chance of shrugging off a bolter round. But - as I understand it - bolters are usually used in burst/auto mode, so the Termies will be getting hit with the equivilent of multiple grenades. The chance of shrugging of a three-round burst would only be 1 in 8. (And if for some reason the Marines are firing in single-shot mode, well, that just means Termies are Toughness 4 or have a 4+ armour save, which while quite good, is not unusual for the Astartes' foes).

Also, Termies are actually pretty poor at hand-to-hand combat, relying mainly on strength and toughness. I would expect a Marine would be at least as strong, at least as tough, but a lot more skilled and with much better reflexes (and heavier to).

Most Terminators seem to be designed for killing large numbers of weaker enemies - i.e. normal humans with 20th century weaponry. Their normal tactics are either to use surprise to assassinate unsuspecting victims, or to tank small-arms fire while picking off selected/all targets with precise weapons fire. Against an enemy that can survive their attacks, and hit back harder, I don't think they would do well at all.

I reckon the standard "mechanical" terminators would be pretty easy for a Marine to take out. The liquid-metal ones would be harder (you'd probably need meltas or plasma guns or las-cannons rather than bolters), but not insumountably so.

Likewise, the various terminator vehicles seem to be optimised for mopping up opperations against 20th/21st centuary human armies, and would be outclassed by anything the Astartes (or even Guard) could bring along.


Honestly, the Terminator universe is pretty low-powered, and designed to be overwhealming compared to us at the time it was written. You don't need a setting as overpowered as 40k to beat it. NATO could probably make quite a good stand against the Terminators now, providing Skynet hadn't pre-emptively nuked us.

[Squark]

Shoot lava? :smallconfused:

That is original description, but anyway, to not dispute semantics, aren't meltaguns one of these things they 'lost' instruction papers for? Things company is lucky to have enough to arm one man per squad? Unless you're SW, of course. Not something everyone carries. No, meltaguns are still mass-producable. It's plasmaguns that are only produced by a handful of forgeworlds like Ryza. That's why you see devastator teams with 4 multi-meltas, Sternguard squads with large numbers of combi-meltas, and the like.
Gravity guns? Um, do you mean these corroded bits of metal kept behind bars for last ten millennia because Primarch sneezed on it once? Because that is about the only example of graviton gun most chapters will ever see, if they're lucky enough to see one. Fluff changes; Gravity guns are being added to the 6th edition Marine codex.
Sooo... Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Raven Guard and dozens of their descendants are completely ineffective? :smallconfused:

Because all of the above were willing to start shooting war with other imperial factions over the humans they supposedly don't care about. Hell, in Lamenters case, it took ritual suicide of people they were trying to save (to free marines out of obligation so their saviours aren't annihilated defending them) to get them out of the way of complete obliteration. Yeah.../QUOTE] First off, a lot of the Blood Angels successors don't hold themselves to the same standards, due to the whole Red Thirst thing, and it's really only the Primogenitors that hold themselves that closely to the Ultramarines legacy. They're the exception, not the rule. The reason they get so much screen time is similar to the Drizzt principal. Also, most of those chapters are also generally better stocked due to the prestige of being first or second founding chapters. Also, I find it... odd... that you forgot the posterboys of the Marines as defenders of humanity role, the salamanders.[QUOTE]So all these hundreds of crusades reclaiming lost imperial worlds doesn't exist now? Tau Empire is full of dead worlds? Gaunts Ghosts don't spend dozen books fighting on ex-Imperial worlds? Cain was glassed instead of titled 'Liberator' by leading rebellion on fallen Imperial world? Pardon? :smallconfused: It happens on important worlds, sure. Or if there's a lot of them, or if there are Salamanders or Space Wolves glaring at the Warmaster. But if an Astartes commander decides a world is beyond saving... Boom. Even a Strike Cruiser is sufficient to commence Exterminatus if the situation calls for it, IIRC.
Poor Black Templars, 10 millennia of blundering into mistakes thanks to never taking Librarians for a ride. So, you say they mended their heretical ways and started taking them in? :smalltongue: No, they've just diverged a bit and incorprate the roles a Librarian plays in a normal chapter into other officers roles.
That was early models. Every movie model from T1 to T3 was better in infiltrating in some respects. We can't say if auspex would detect them, as these range in stories from 'instantly analyse chemical composition' to '1940s level night vision device, as we are dumb and managed to lose all better tech'.That's because Auspex is a catch all term for a meriod of patterns of similar devices. Marines, though, generally get the pick of the best with regards to wargear, especially the more prestigious chapters you need for the level of compassion you're calling for.
By the way, that bit about metal detectors, if true, is yet another example of writer stupidity, as pretty good methods of fooling metal detector were made decades ago, what, Skynet doesn't have copy of future Wikipedia? :smallconfused: You're assuming metal dectecting technology won't improve in the future. Remember, the more civilized imperial worlds consider nuclear fission quaint.
Plasma rifles, also, in games they have skeletons with hard coded chance of hand grenade doing nothing to them (IIRC, 50%) explained as great immunity to shockwaves. Which is incidentally equivalent of main weapon marines use. Ignoring the fact that the Boltgun is a bit above a standard hand grenade, that's why bolters are automatic weapons.
Yeah, all these advanced plasma rifles are sooo primitive :smallsigh:

Even if we make them worse than WH40K one in every respect S6 AP3 still kills Marines just fine. Hell, even if it is really inferior S5 AP4 plasma rifle is still far and away better than bolter or even heavy bolter. It can't be worse than that as in most depictions it is better than Tau pulse rifles, itself better than bolters.

Admittedly, I haven't seen the films for myself, but most laser and plasma technology in sci-fi tends to be in line with a lasgun's capabilities. Maybe if it's high end closer to a Tau pulse rifle, but Marines still shrug those off in large numbers. Unless it's flash-boiling people it hits, it doesn't deserve to be on the scale of a 40k plasmagun.

[GloatingSwine]

Well, ignoring the penetrator, they probably have (according to Trixie) a 50% chance of shrugging off a bolter round. But - as I understand it - bolters are usually used in burst/auto mode, so the Termies will be getting hit with the equivilent of multiple grenades. The chance of shrugging of a three-round burst would only be 1 in 8. (And if for some reason the Marines are firing in single-shot mode, well, that just means Termies are Toughness 4 or have a 4+ armour save, which while quite good, is not unusual for the Astartes' foes).


That's just flat out wrong though.

It assumes that a bolter round is equivalent to a modern hand grenade, when they're actually essentially equivalent to a 20mm autocannon fired High Explosive Armour Piercing round (though the bolter is actually a gyrojet weapon, the rounds are rocket propelled).

Bolters will completely shred Terminators. They will blow them to bits as easily as they would an unarmoured human.



Admittedly, I haven't seen the films for myself, but most laser and plasma technology in sci-fi tends to be in line with a lasgun's capabilities. Maybe if it's high end closer to a Tau pulse rifle, but Marines still shrug those off in large numbers. Unless it's flash-boiling people it hits, it doesn't deserve to be on the scale of a 40k plasmagun.

I don't think we ever see a terminator's handheld weapon used on humans. The cannon on a Hunter Killer blows a person to smoking gibs, but that's an obviously much larger weapon.

[paddyfool]

Admittedly, I haven't seen the films for myself.

Quick viewing guide: Terminator and Terminator 2 are cultural icons, made of awesome, and you should see them. The rest of the stable is kind of meh.

EDIT: The above is of course just my opinion. However, imdb doesn't altogether disagree...

Terminator: 8.1
Terminator 2: 8.6
Terminator 3: 6.4
Terminator Salvation: 6.7
Sarah Connor Chronicles: 7.4

[Wardog]

That's just flat out wrong though.

It assumes that a bolter round is equivalent to a modern hand grenade, when they're actually essentially equivalent to a 20mm autocannon fired High Explosive Armour Piercing round (though the bolter is actually a gyrojet weapon, the rounds are rocket propelled).

Bolters will completely shred Terminators. They will blow them to bits as easily as they would an unarmoured human.

I know. I was just trying to show that even with the worst-case scenario, a bolter is more than enough to kill a terminator.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Possibly slightly better than lasguns, as lasguns are generally described as equivilent to autoguns (which are basically modern assault rifles). Maybe hotshot lasguns or hellguns or the like.

Well, the source I've seen (admittedly, it's the wiki, may not be fully accurate) says that Autoguns are more effective than modern small arms, and stubbers are the ones that are basically what we use today. So yeah, it's probably about lasgun effectiveness.

[hamishspence]

By the way, that bit about metal detectors, if true, is yet another example of writer stupidity, as pretty good methods of fooling metal detector were made decades ago, what, Skynet doesn't have copy of future Wikipedia? :smallconfused:

In those books- the terminators the heroes were fighting had been constructed in our era.

An infiltrator had been sent back, with CPUs and extra-small power cells stitched under the skin- she extracted them after arriving in the "present" and started building her own terminators- which were a bit inferior to ones built by Skynet.

[Karoht]

If a battle barge came upon the battlefield shown in the first terminator movie in a flashback what would they do assuming they had to rescue as many humans as possible and (if possible) stop skynet? How would they prevent attempts at skynet hacking their equipment?

I'm really, REALLY not a fan of Space Marines normally. Or the 40K verse for that matter.
BUT, in this case I must defer to the Space Marines handling the situation just fine. Why?
Normal humans with tech below that of the Imperial Guard are fighting the Terminators (and related support such as tanks and VTOL patrol craft) and winning. To the point where the humans have successfully captured Terminators, reprogrammed them, debriefed them, then sent them back in time to successfully protect their future leader.

The Terminators are tough, but not THAT tough.

Flash forward a few years, and add in some more tech.
Throw a few T-1000's and T-X on the field? Things with nanobots which could potentially hack the Space Marine tech? Okay. Now things get interesting.

The Marines get out of their suits, possibly being forced to fight the animate suits AND some Terminators at once. With firepower that can and likely will obliterate both. The only major threats at that point are the suits (especially if there are Terminator squads there) and other heavier tech.

If Skynet somehow captures this tech and adapts, and then mass produces, sure, that could be a problem. The Resistance at that point becomes completely useless, the few Marines stranded there are outnumbered and outgunned by their own tech. Unlikely, but a possible scenario.

VS T-1000
It is a collection of Nanobots manipulating a polymer substance to have shape. It is affected by heat and cold. If Bolter rounds explode inside one, it is going to have an effect.
Can it hack?
We don't actually see the T-1000 hack any devices in T2, however it seems to have access to the Police computer and knows perfectly how it works. While it is likely to have been built with computer skills, it is also a nanobot collective, ergo it is equally likely that it can hack the way we see the T-X do so in T3. It also stands to reason that the nanobots controlling the T-1000 are the same as those on the T-X
A T-1000 stands probably the best chance of getting into contact with a Marine Suit and hacking it.

VS T-X
While it has a nanobot skin and can hack and remote control devices such as cars, it still has a solid exo/endoskeleton just like the T-800's, so Bolter fire is still going to decimate one. Unlikely that it will actually survive long enough to make contact.

VS T-Meg
This particular Terminator only exists in the ride at Universal Studios. Capabilities are largely unknown, but it looks like a nano-creature.

[GloatingSwine]

Throw a few T-1000's and T-X on the field? Things with nanobots which could potentially hack the Space Marine tech? Okay. Now things get interesting.

It always amuses me when people say things like "early 21st century technology will be able to trivially take control of technology at least 30,000 years advanced from it".


Ain't gonna happen. Skynet is a super AI by modern standards, it's a rock on a stick compared to even the degraded tech of the Imperium of Man.

[Rakaydos]

Ain't gonna happen. Skynet is a super AI by modern standards, it's a rock on a stick compared to even the degraded tech of the Imperium of Man.

Skynet tries to hack a land raider... the land raider machine spirit says "Thanks but no thanks."

[Karoht]

It always amuses me when people say things like "early 21st century technology will be able to trivially take control of technology at least 30,000 years advanced from it".

Ain't gonna happen. Skynet is a super AI by modern standards, it's a rock on a stick compared to even the degraded tech of the Imperium of Man.I agree it is unlikely (see Independance Day for equally unlikely example), but not outright impossible. Either way, I concur.


Skynet tries to hack a land raider... the land raider machine spirit says "Thanks but no thanks."aaaaand answers like this are why I greatly dislike the 40K setting. They put an AI into a tank that is more powerful than an AI designed to govern an entire planets military hardware including other tanks? And that there is an equally powerful AI governing suits of powered armor? I won't argue that the machine spirit wins or loses (again, I concur), but the logic is pretty odd. But hey, thats the 40K verse for you.

[The Glyphstone]

I agree it is unlikely (see Independance Day for equally unlikely example), but not outright impossible. Either way, I concur.

aaaaand answers like this are why I greatly dislike the 40K setting. They put an AI into a tank that is more powerful than an AI designed to govern an entire planets military hardware including other tanks? And that there is an equally powerful AI governing suits of powered armor? I won't argue that the machine spirit wins or loses (again, I concur), but the logic is pretty odd. But hey, thats the 40K verse for you.

You're missing the bit that one of these AIs is thirty to forty thousand years more advanced. This is not "Tank AI" versus "Planetary AI", this is "Tank AI" versus "room full of wood+bead abacus calculators".

[Karoht]

You're missing the bit that one of these AIs is thirty to forty thousand years more advanced. This is not "Tank AI" versus "Planetary AI", this is "Tank AI" versus "room full of wood+bead abacus calculators".So the Tank AI makes Skynet look like a pocket calculator, yet Ciaphas Cain was completely blown away when he encountered a door that opened automatically on a ruined space hulk some 10000 years old.
Right.

I'll completely admit, I don't fully understand the tech of the 40K universe but comparisons like that really make it sound like writter fiat.

Again, I'm not arguing that the skynet level tech could hack these things, merely that the very small chance of it occuring is about the only chance skynet would have at beating a pack of 40K Astartes.
Or reverse-engineering the tech in the bizarre case that they actually managed to kill an Astartes and recover the body and suit in-tact.

[Selrahc]

How is hacking supposed to work anyway? 40k machines aren't even networked. No matter how relatively advanced something is, you can't hack it if it isn't linked to you.

I don't really buy the "40k machines are super duper advanced and hack proof" argument. 40kverse cut off AI research. With a hatchet. Then burned the remains.

[Karoht]

How is hacking supposed to work anyway? 40k machines aren't even networked. No matter how relatively advanced something is, you can't hack it if it isn't linked to you.

I don't really buy the "40k machines are super duper advanced and hack proof" argument. 40kverse cut off AI research. With a hatchet. Then burned the remains.To the latter point I completely agree.
Is the machine spirit a literal ghost? They make their tech work with ghosts?
Their AI systems are really good, but they can't make doors properly? Their super duper rail guns only reach less than 100 feet in front of them yet modern tech can easily outrange that? Yeah, I don't buy that. It's why I never bought into the 40K verse. But I'm not here to start that arguement, truthfully. In fact my opinion was solidly that the 40K verse stuff wins by virtue that the poorly equiped remains of humanity were already winning.

To the earlier point, here's the explanation.
T-X and T-1000 both have nano machines.
In Terminator 3 we see T-X stick some nanobots into vehicles, and (yes, magical hollywood tech not working like it should) remote access the cars. T-X also does this with the T-800. The nano machines are providing the interface, they just need to touch the subject, work into it, etc.

In other words, the nanobots make the link/interface, Skynet does the rest?


However if there is a literal ghost in the machine, well now I want to see a Ghost fight a bunch of nano-bots. That sounds cool.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It's why I never bought into the 40K verse.

There's also the fact that the Imperium insists on using WWI tactics. Good WWI tactics (shock troop/storm trooper equivalents, tanks, air support), but WWI tactics nonetheless.

[Karoht]

There's also the fact that the Imperium insists on using WWI tactics. Good WWI tactics (shock troop/storm trooper equivalents, tanks, air support), but WWI tactics nonetheless.Well, we could draw a parable to the Resistance and the WWI and WWII Resistance cells that sprung up similarly, and the combat tactics that came of it, but this debate of Space Marines VS Terminators pretty much ignores those guys altogether.

Mind you, the tactics of the Terminators literally boils down to DILLIGAF in walking and talking robotic form. Aside from the infiltrators, they don't really use much in the way of tactics that one can see from the films perspective.

[The Glyphstone]

So the Tank AI makes Skynet look like a pocket calculator, yet Ciaphas Cain was completely blown away when he encountered a door that opened automatically on a ruined space hulk some 10000 years old.
Right.


I think you missed the point I was making. Your comparison was purely in the size of the AI's governing capacity - 'tank AI' versus 'planetary AI that can also control tanks', when the far more important differentiation is the twenty-eight thousand years of technological advancement that the Tank AI is benefiting from, plus an additional ten thousand years of technical stasis. Skynet probably does have more processing power, but in any area other than brute force number-crunching, it really would be like comparing a modern pocket calculator to a wooden abacus. The Terminators themselves only come from 30-40 years in the future of the movie settings, after all.

The wild, often incredibly frustratingly inconsistent depiction of technology's application after those thirty-eight thousand years is another issue entirely.

[GloatingSwine]

I agree it is unlikely (see Independance Day for equally unlikely example), but not outright impossible. Either way, I concur.

Yeah, but Jeff Goldblum was using a mac, if he'd tried it with windows they'd be screwed :P


aaaaand answers like this are why I greatly dislike the 40K setting. They put an AI into a tank that is more powerful than an AI designed to govern an entire planets military hardware including other tanks? And that there is an equally powerful AI governing suits of powered armor? I won't argue that the machine spirit wins or loses (again, I concur), but the logic is pretty odd. But hey, thats the 40K verse for you.

It's nothing to do with "it's 40K", it's to do with the 30000 years of extra technological improvement over Skynet. Terminators can literally have no idea how to affect or operate the technology they are faced with on that level.

[Karoht]

The wild, often incredibly frustratingly inconsistent depiction of technology's application after those thirty-eight thousand years is another issue entirely.More the reason I conceded the point already. It's a pointless arguement at best.

[Deadline]

They have to try to rescue the people first.

FYI, here's some informative Imperial quotes (with regards to the use of Exterminatus):


Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise that you have no right to let them live!


In an Imperium of a billions worlds, what does the fate of one world matter?

[hamishspence]

On the other hand, there's a "Men are expendable. Planets are not" quote somewhere-

as well as info suggesting that Exterminatus orders are investigated thoroughly afterward, with Inquisitors that issue them too much, and without satisfactory justification, being in deep trouble.

[GloatingSwine]

A job like "protect the Human resistance" given to a Space Marine force basically turns into "terminate the Abominable Intelligence as swiftly and decisively as possible".

They're shock troops that specialise in assault operations, their version of saving humanity is killing its enemies as hard as possible.

[HamHam]

A job like "protect the Human resistance" given to a Space Marine force basically turns into "terminate the Abominable Intelligence as swiftly and decisively as possible".

They're shock troops that specialise in assault operations, their version of saving humanity is killing its enemies as hard as possible.

Yeah. They would identify Skynet's servers, and just hit them with extreme prejudice. Soften it up with orbital fire, then drop a company in Thunderhawks. If they meet any actual resistance, bring in the Dreadnaughts and Terminators.

[Cheesegear]

Exterminatus orders are investigated thoroughly afterward, with Inquisitors that issue them too much, and without satisfactory justification, being in deep trouble.

Justification usually involves "Well, a couple of Chapters tried to take the planet, they bailed. We either need more Marines - which ain't gonna happen if three Chapters have already pulled the plug - or we blow the planet."

Unless you're a Deathwatch Captain - who outranks most Inquisitors - has carte blanche to order Exterminatus.
=][= "Why'd you order Exterminatus?"
DWC "I thought it was neccessary, so I ordered it."
=][= "Welp, good enough for me! Please don't feed me to your science projects!"
DWC "That's what I thought."


A job like "protect the Human resistance" given to a Space Marine force basically turns into "terminate the Abominable Intelligence as swiftly and decisively as possible".

Marines have a lot of leeway when dealing with Psykers or Mutants and Aliens. Some of them can be helpful. Diplomacy first, open fire if they don't comply.
AI though...Kill it. Kill it now.

[Tavar]

Question regarding Cain and the Door: what exactly is the marvel? Is it the fact that the door is still working despite XXXX years without maintenance? Is is that it opens with physical interaction(ie, motion activated)?

Because if it's something like those, well, the shock doesn't really tell us about the capabilities of the computers, just about other things.

[Selrahc]

Justification usually involves

This is a planet full of robots who can imitate humans and travel through time. Justification will not be a problem.

[Karoht]

Question regarding Cain and the Door: what exactly is the marvel? Is it the fact that the door is still working despite XXXX years without maintenance? Is is that it opens with physical interaction(ie, motion activated)?

Because if it's something like those, well, the shock doesn't really tell us about the capabilities of the computers, just about other things.That the door opened automatically for him.

They can make super powerful AI (and ignore the majority of it's capabilities) and for some reason stick it in a tank, and that just gets handwaved as perfectly fine, but a modern infrared sensor from 38000 years ago is some kind of marvel.

But like I said, it's a pointless arguement. This response was only to clarify my earlier comment, and is not intended to pursue the arguement further.

[GloatingSwine]

They can only make Land Raiders because they have the STC for them.

They could probably invent an automatic door opening system, but that would be heresy and punishable by death.

[Karoht]

They can only make Land Raiders because they have the STC for them.

They could probably invent an automatic door opening system, but that would be heresy and punishable by death.Yeah, that gets into a whole other beef I have with 40K verse. So as before, I'm just going to stop myself here.


As for the Exterminatus destroying earth from orbit, I really hope that 40K verse isn't so stupid that they would kill their own emperor or the planet of his birth. But hey, 40K verse logic. If their ship board computers and human cartographers can't identify the Sol Solar System (AKA the Terran System) then they deserve to destroy themselves.

[shadow_archmagi]

How is hacking supposed to work anyway? 40k machines aren't even networked. No matter how relatively advanced something is, you can't hack it if it isn't linked to you.


Actually, in Mechanicum they rediscover a noosphere (which, by all appearances, is just wifi.) In Titanicus, all the techpriests are familiar with and use the noosphere network on a daily basis, occasionally complaining that about how some of the oldest tech requires one to be hard-linked. Speaking of which-

Almost all 40k machines support direct interface! The MIU (Machine interface unit) is one of the most commonly used tools in a techpriest's bag of bionics, and many mercenaries or skitarii will carry a specialized MIU so they can control their weapon (often shoulder-mounter) with their brain.



I don't really buy the "40k machines are super duper advanced and hack proof" argument. 40kverse cut off AI research. With a hatchet. Then burned the remains.

Agreed. "Advanced" is a meaningless word. You could argue that there's no short-term possibility of interface between 40k and 2k tech simply because they're running on utterly different operating systems, however.



They could probably invent an automatic door opening system, but that would be heresy and punishable by death.

Untrue. Innovation happens all the time in the Admech. It's just that whenever someone invents something new, one of two things happen:

1.
Researcher: "Hey guys, I just invented a new plasma rifle!"

Senior Plasma Adept: "Angling for my job eh? See how far you get once I slander your project!"

Imperial Guard: "We're told your weapon displeases the machines, and we're scared to use it!"

Senior Adept Committee: "Some say your weapon is unsafe, and could be potentially deadly to those fired upon. I'm afraid we can't approve it until it has a mark of approval from our weapons testing facility on Peragus III. They say they can space-pencil you in for two to three centuries from now, but it's tentative and subject to change if anyone higher priority needs the slot."



2.
Researcher: "Hey guys, I just invented a new plasma rifle! Time to share it with no one! From now on, everyone shall call me... Plasma Steve, and wonder at the arcane secrets I have uncovered! Whahahahahahahahahaha!"

[Tavar]

Don't forget the logistical concerns. That is generally the given reason for guard equipment. Yeah, there is better man portable weapons and armor. Just not in quantity.

[GloatingSwine]

Agreed. "Advanced" is a meaningless word. You could argue that there's no short-term possibility of interface between 40k and 2k tech simply because they're running on utterly different operating systems, however.


You forgot "using a completely different and totally incompatible architecture and design philosophy".

If you showed a modern CPU to a computer engineer 40 years ago they would swear that what you were holding was impossible to make, let alone interface with or program for.

Hacking isn't ****ing magic, you can't say "X is a computer, therefore it can hack Y, which is also a computer, because they're both computers!" It doesn't work like that, you have to know in detail how the target system works before you can even think about hacking it. That's why you haven't broken into your bank's computer systems and given yourself infinite money. Because you don't know the system well enough.


Untrue. Innovation happens all the time in the Admech. It's just that whenever someone invents something new, one of two things happen:

You forgot 3.

Hey guys I totally just found this STC that no-one's seen before, and didn't invent it at all, really.

Why are you looking at me like that. If you call me a heretic I'll cry!