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Starcofski
2013-08-24, 12:37 AM
I hope I title'd this right. This is my attempt to try and understand the Awakened Tyrannosaur setup, (starting with the given Monster Manual Entry), adding the Awakened spell effect, and then attempting to either determine the proper ECL, and create a leveling plan starting at level 1. First off is my math (which I believe is correct based on the RAW I have access to).

Awakened Tyrannosaur (ECL 8 according to Monster Manual, 20 according to GitP and other internet discussions)
Tyrannosaur, Awakened
18d8 + 2d10 + 5x20 + 3x3 (Toughness) HP =~ 191 Health average
28 STR, 12 DEX, 21 CON, ~10 INT, 15 WIS, ~12 CHA (Tildes indicate adjusted from Awaken spell)
Skills: 20 points (1 per HD with 2 bonus?)
BAB: +15 (3/4 of HD)
Fort+16, Ref+12, Will+8
Attack once per round, using Bite (3d6), has 5 natural armor, 40 ft speed

A full attack round deals (3d6 + 13) x 1 attack = 16 to 31 damage per round

For comparison, a Half-Orc level 20 Barbarian (with no feats selected)
Half-Orc Barbarian 20 (Normal PC)
STR+2, INT-2, CHA-2 (Racial), +5 ability points from levels (all STR)
Assume 18 STR, 14 DEX, 16 CON, 8 INT/WIS/CHA from 32 point buy
Giving: 25 STR, 14 DEX, 16 CON, 6 INT, 8 WIS, 6 CHA
20d12 hit die + 3 x 20 HP ~= 180 Health average
(4+Int)x23 skill points total
BAB = +20/+15/+10/+5
Fort+12, Ref+6, Will+6
Damaged Reduction 5/- and Rage 6/day, Gains +8 STR and CON, Will+4 while raging. Uses Greataxe (non-Magic for this example)

An attack round deals (1d12 + 11) x 4 attacks = 48 to 92 damage per round, excluding crits

Level 1 Comparison
Assuming level 1 for each, and scaling tyranno down to medium size

Half-Orc: 20 STR, 14 DEX, 16 CON, 6 INT, 8 WIS, 6 CHA = 32 point buy
Tyranno: 12 STR, 14 DEX, 13 CON, ~10 INT, 15 WIS, ~12 CHA = 29 point buy

Note that Tyranno also loses 5 ability points from de-leveling to 1 HD. Removing 5 points (and maximizing their purchase value) reduces to a 23 point buy (Absolutely terrible).

Again, calculate level 1 damage:

1d12 + 7 damage = 8 to 19 damage, excluding crits for the Half Orc and his Axe
2d4 + 1 damage = 3 to 9 damage for the tyranno and his bite.

If you adjust the base stats of the tyranno to meet with a 32 point buy, I can

push his stats to 16 STR, 14 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 12 WIS, 12 CHA

This gives us 2d4 + 4 damage = 6 to 14 damage with a bite at level one.

And now for why I'm posting this: I am itching to play a Dino character (as many are/have), but there are only homebrewed rules thus far, and I had yet to see concrete numbers for this specific species, so I figured I'd use my weekend to try and come up with something reasonable.

Using the math from above, I draw the conclusion that, even if this character started with 20 hit dice, it would not be strong enough to keep pace with a streamlined, un-optimized Barbarian of the same number of Hit Dice. So, my goal is to strike a balance where this character is at least equal to a straight fighter.

Initial thoughts: A character of this race has very little use taking up a martial class, and requires the Surrogate Spellcasting feat just to consider caster levels. Pursuing fighter levels does nothing, as the Bite damage does not scale all that well, and trying to get the proper mental skills is difficult with 23 points almost mandatorily spent. On top of that, unless you have a DM who house-rules that class hit die count towards size changing, this is pointless.

So, Based on this, my idea is as follows:
12 STR, 13 DEX, 12 CON, 3d6 INT, 12 WIS, 10+1d3 CHA
Use point buy to bring from current 23 points to 25 or 32 as desired.
Theoretically, if your DM permits, you can change to 18+(3d6)/2 INT if the subject of a Maximized Awaken.

Start with 8d10 Hit Dice and Large size (Be sure to apply size change modifiers!). Increase to Huge size at 18 Hit Dice (Consistent with MM entry).
(2+INT)x(HD+2) skill points, with Listen, Spot, and Balance considered class skills. Racial bonus of +2 to Listen and Spot.
Unable to use any weapons of any sort. (Though I think there is a Savage Species Wondrous Item which could counteract this.) Cannot learn another language other than the one imparted from the Awaken spell. And to top it off, from the Awaken Spell's Magical Beast type, gains Darkvision (60ft) and Low-Light Vision.

The way I see it, this method does not allow for absurd stats, and possibly provides a slight penalty/hindrance to the player. So, thoughts? I'd like to make this proposal at least fair when I give it to my DM.

LordErebus12
2013-08-24, 12:58 AM
first off, throw out the concept of a T-rex... go for megaraptor.
Doing this allows much higher average damage and grants you much more chances of landing attacks. charges are infinitely better, too, with pounce. anyways, take it into barbarian or something and you should end up with something far stronger and tougher than a standard T-Rex. you wont be as big, but it should be better.

MEGARAPTOR
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+43 (79 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (1 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+15
Attack: Talons +10 melee (2d6+5)
Full Attack: Talons +10 melee (2d6+5) and 2 foreclaws +5 melee (1d4+2) and bite +5 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Pounce
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +4
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +9, Jump +27, Listen +12, Spot +12, Survival +12
Feats: Run, Toughness, Track
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (36)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 916 HD (Large); 1724 HD (Huge)

This creature is a larger version of the deinonychus, standing about 12 feet tall with a total length of 24 feet. It has the same appearance, habits, and abilities of the smaller version.

Combat

Pounce (Ex): If a megaraptor charges, it can make a full attack.
Skills: A megaraptor has a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks.

Starcofski
2013-08-24, 01:35 AM
first off, throw out the concept of a T-rex... go for megaraptor.
Doing this allows much higher average damage and grants you much more chances of landing attacks. charges are infinitely better, too, with pounce. anyways, take it into barbarian or something and you should end up with something far stronger and tougher than a standard T-Rex. you wont be as big, but it should be better.
*snip*

Interesting, didn't see that one. But the theory still stands: Would it be broken or balanced to reduce Hit Die down to the creature's base Challenge Rating, so that there could be more class levels?

For example, I was hoping to take levels of Cleric or Paladin (Originally Druid, but that didn't sound like a great idea). That was the main goal; balance the build so that it did not have an ECL of 20 from the get-go.

That said, I guess with a magic item that increases the size of it's wearer, I could take on the description of a T-rex as fluff/flavor, right?

LordErebus12
2013-08-24, 11:36 AM
Interesting, didn't see that one. But the theory still stands: Would it be broken or balanced to reduce Hit Die down to the creature's base Challenge Rating, so that there could be more class levels?

For example, I was hoping to take levels of Cleric or Paladin (Originally Druid, but that didn't sound like a great idea). That was the main goal; balance the build so that it did not have an ECL of 20 from the get-go.

That said, I guess with a magic item that increases the size of it's wearer, I could take on the description of a T-rex as fluff/flavor, right?

Generally its not allowed. Hit Dice stands as something that cannot be reduced. That begin said, racial classes could be made to create what you want, but it wont be as tough overall when you strip the base creature down like that. At least with the mega raptor you can take 10 levels of cleric or paladin.

Is your DM big on core rules or does he allow new spells/items to be completely made? As per normal rules, Enlarge person effects humanoids only, not magical beasts.

---

If you take a moment to check pathfinder rules for animal companions, you get these below:

Allosaurus Starting Statistics

Size Medium, Speed 40 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6), 2 claws (1d4)*; Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.

Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8), 2 claws (1d6); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex 2, Con +4; Special Qualities grab, pounce.

---

Deinonychus Starting Statistics

Size Small; Speed 60 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack 2 talons (1d6), bite (1d4); Ability Scores Str 11, Dex 17, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 14; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.

Size Medium; AC +2 natural armor; Attack 2 talons (1d8), bite (1d6), 2 claws (1d4) Ability Scores Str +4, Dex 2, Con +2; Special Attacks pounce.

---

Spinosaurus Starting Statistics

Size Medium; Speed 30 ft., swim 20 ft.; AC +3 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6), 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 18, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 3.

Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8), 2 claws (1d6); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex 2, Con +4.

---

Tyrannosaurus Starting Statistics

Size Medium, Speed 30 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.

Size Large; AC +3 natural armor; Attack bite (2d6 plus grab); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex 2, Con +4; Special Qualities powerful bite.

Powerful Bite (Ex): A tyrannosaurus applies twice its Strength modifier to bite damage.

these creatures are built to start at 2nd level (basically two levels of animal) and gain advancements as they gain animal levels. While they will never reach the size of the base creature, it allows you to play one far earlier than normal if you and your DM do it right.

you could theoretically start at 4th level with one of these things at the minimum (2 levels of animal, 2 levels of magical beast) and continue from then on, gaining the advancements as you progress in your standard magical beast racial class levels.

youd gain your advancement once you reach 7 total (racial) Hit Dice, so it would be something like 2 levels of animal, 5 levels of magical beast, gain advancement, then the remaining 13 levels in cleric or paladin.

you could also spread it out a bit, if you wanted, take levels of paladin/cleric before the advancement to gain classing or special abilities before gaining the advancement.

Starcofski
2013-08-24, 11:47 AM
Generally its not allowed. Hit Dice stands as something that cannot be reduced. That begin said, racial classes could be made to create what you want, but it wont be as tough overall when you strip the base creature down like that. At least with the mega raptor you can take 10 levels of cleric or paladin.

Is your DM big on core rules or does he allow new spells/items to be completely made? As per normal rules, Enlarge person effects humanoids only, not magical beasts.

Yea he's a sticker on core rules.

Thanks for the help; it seems the best/only way to feasibly do this would be with a custom race in Pathfinder.

LOTRfan
2013-08-24, 12:28 PM
I'm not sure if this helps, but;

Sharptooth Racial Traits
 +2 Str, +2 Con
 Large Humanoid (Reptilian): As Large creatures, Sharpteeth gain a -1 size penalty to Armor Class, a -1 size penalty on attack rolls, and a -4 size bonus on Hide checks, and they must use larger weapons than humans use.
 Base Speed 30 ft.
 Lowlight Vision
 Cold Torpor (Ex): Saurials are warm-blooded creatures, but they retain heat poorly in cold environments. A saurial suffers a -4 penalty to Fortitude saving throws made to avoid subdual damage from cold environments and takes double the normal amount of subdual damage for failing those saving throws. In cooler climates, saurials bundle up to keep warm, for they can easily die from exposure in an environment that a human would find merely uncomfortable.
 Protection from Sonic Attacks (Ex): A saurial's earholes are well protected, giving it a +4 circumstance bonus on saving throws against sonic effects and attacks.
 Vulnerability to Gas Attacks (Ex): A saurial's metabolism and reliance on scent makes it vulnerable to attacks conveyed through gas, including stinking cloud, cloudkill, and poisonous gas. Saurials suffer a -4 penalty on saving throws against gas-based effects and attacks.
 Racial Levels: A Sharptooth has 2 levels of Humanoid. This grants it a BAB of +1 and Fort +0, Ref +3, WIll +3.
 Racial Skills: Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
 Racial Feats: A Sharptooth's racial levels grant it one feat.
 +4 natural armor
 Scent
 Bite Attack (1d6 damage)
 Tail Attack (1d4 Damage)
 Favored Class: Barbarian

There are other races of Saurial, too; four official ones, if I recall correctly; Hornhead, Finhead, Bladeback, and Flyers.

Starcofski
2013-08-24, 12:34 PM
@LOTRfan: It'd work in a pinch, but the Humanoid type doesn't fit the bill. For that I could probably just adjust the Anthro templates people have posted here. The key selling point is Beast. So, if you swapped the two types, would it still just be LA+2 with 2 RHD? Or would the LA change to compensate?

LOTRfan
2013-08-24, 12:39 PM
I'd say it would be the same LA, roughly. You'd have to make the following changes;

 Large Magical Beast As Large creatures, Sharpteeth gain a -1 size penalty to Armor Class, a -1 size penalty on attack rolls, and a -4 size bonus on Hide checks, and they must use larger weapons than humans use. As Magical Beasts, Sharpteeth are not affected by effects that specifically target Humanoids, like Hold Person.
 Racial Levels: A Sharptooth has 2 levels of Magical Beast. This grants it a BAB of +2 and Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +0.

LordErebus12
2013-08-24, 12:43 PM
Would it be broken or balanced to reduce Hit Die

Not sure about that, but it can be done.

Megaraptor base statistics:
(treat it as a hatchling megaraptor at 1st level, a juvenile at 4th level, and an adult at 8th.)

Dex +2, Int (always 2, see animal intelligence below). Megaraptors are fast and agile creatures, becoming truely fearsome as they grow in size.
Small Animal (Megaraptor). A Small animal gets a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks. A Small animals carrying capacity is three-quarters of that of a Medium animal.
Base Speed: 40 ft. Megaraptors are fast creatures for their size.
Thick Hide: +2 natural armor.
Animal Intelligence: A Megaraptor's intelligence is always 2. It can never increase beyond 2 with non-magical means, meaning you cannot increase it beyond 2 with your ability score increase at 4th level (or at each increase thereafter). Magical items or awakening can still cause the desired increase, suppressing/removing this trait.
Low-Light Vision: A megaraptor can see twice as far as normal in low light conditions.
Natural Weapons: Primary Talons (1d6), 2 secondary foreclaws (1d2) and secondary bite (1d4)
Languages: All animals can generally understand other members of their species, although this is not truly a language, more like instinct.

Megaraptor Racial Class

Alignment: Always neutral.
Hit Dice: d8

Skills: Hide, Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival
Skill Points at 1st level: 4x (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1)
Skill points at each level: (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1)

Level| Attack Bonus | Fort | Ref | Will | Special|Ability Scores

1 | +0 |{colsp=1}+2|{colsp=1}+2|{colsp=1}+0 |Feat Selection: Run, Racial Skills |As base creature
2 | +1 |{colsp=1}+3|{colsp=1}+3|{colsp=1}+0 |Speed increase: +10 ft.|+2 Wis
3 | +2 |{colsp=1}+3|{colsp=1}+3|{colsp=1}+1 |Feat Selection: Track, Scent|+2 Str
4 | +3 |{colsp=1}+4|{colsp=1}+4|{colsp=1}+1 |Size Increase (Medium)|---

5 | +3 |{colsp=1}+4|{colsp=1}+4|{colsp=1}+1 |Speed increase: +10 ft.|+2 Dex
6 | +4 |{colsp=1}+5|{colsp=1}+5|{colsp=1}+2 |Feat Selection: Toughness|+2 Con
7 | +5 |{colsp=1}+5|{colsp=1}+5|{colsp=1}+2 |Pounce|+2 Wis
8 | +6/+1 |{colsp=1}+6|{colsp=1}+6|{colsp=1}+2 |Size Increase (Large)|---
[/table]

Special Abilities:

Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: Proficient with its natural weapons only. Proficient with no armor unless trained for war.

Feat Selection: Megaraptors gain feats as normal, but do not get a choice in the selection as they progress in their racial class. They gain Run at 1st, Track at 3rd, and Toughness at 6th.

Speed Increase: Megaraptors are fast creatures. they gain a +10 ft. increase at 2nd and 5th levels. these increases stack.

Racial Skills: Megaraptors gain a +X racial bonus on Hide, Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks. This bonus is equal to the number of animal levels the megaraptor has (max +8).

Scent: as per the special ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent).

Size Increase (Medium): The megaraptor increases one size category, gaining a +4 Str and a +4 Con. The megaraptor's natural attacks also increase one step (Primary Talons (1d8), 2 secondary foreclaws (1d3) and secondary bite (1d6)). They also gain a +2 increase in their natural armor (total of +4).

Pounce (Ex): If a megaraptor charges, it can make a full attack.

Size Increase (Large): The megaraptor increases one size category, gaining a +4 Str and a +4 Con. The megaraptor's natural attacks also increase one step (Primary Talons (2d6), 2 secondary foreclaws (1d4) and secondary bite (1d8)). The megaraptor becomes large (long), meaning it does not gain reach, despite its size. They also gain a +2 increase in their natural armor (total of +6).

hamishspence
2013-08-24, 12:53 PM
Interestingly, Megaraptor itself, while initially thought to be a giant deinonychosaur, (which was probably how WOTC heard about it and certainly how they chose to depict it) nonetheless eventually turned out to be an allosauroid with huge hand claws rather than foot claws.

LordErebus12
2013-08-24, 12:56 PM
Interestingly, Megaraptor itself, while initially thought to be a giant deinonychosaur, (which was probably how WOTC heard about it and certainly how they chose to depict it) nonetheless eventually turned out to be an allosauroid with huge hand claws rather than foot claws.

lol, its a funny creature, imo.

Starcofski
2013-08-24, 01:50 PM
@ LOTRfan: So, in the spoiler tags below is a URL to the character sheet I threw together, just to make sure it looks right. Also, is tiny arms (inability to use any non-natural weapons) worth negative LA? The lower a starting level, the better (Below is an ECL of 5, where 3 would be preferred).
http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=72422

@LordErebus12: Overall that looks really solid, but it still has the issue of requiring 10 hit die before it could take any caster levels and keep the large size. I think I'll go with LOTR's idea