Casting Defensively

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, I've been playing 3.5 since it came out, and third edition in general since 2002. I've always played that failing a Concentration check to cast defensively means the enemy gets an AoO on you, in addition to the spell fizzling and the action being wasted. I've never even thought about the skill working otherwise.

However, I was just reading over the Concentration skill, and realized that may be an unfounded assumption. The actual use of the skill doesn't mention an AoO if the check fails. Here's the relevant text:


Special
You can use Concentration to cast a spell, use a spell-like ability, or use a skill defensively, so as to avoid attacks of opportunity altogether. This doesn’t apply to other actions that might provoke attacks of opportunity.

The DC of the check is 15 (plus the spell’s level, if casting a spell or using a spell-like ability defensively). If the Concentration check succeeds, you may attempt the action normally without provoking any attacks of opportunity. A successful Concentration check still doesn’t allow you to take 10 on another check if you are in a stressful situation; you must make the check normally. If the Concentration check fails, the related action also automatically fails (with any appropriate ramifications), and the action is wasted, just as if your concentration had been disrupted by a distraction.

Some notes:


Under "if the Concentration check fails", the only thing mentioned is that the related action also fails and the action has been wasted. It doesn't actually mention that the action provokes.
You don't even attempt to cast the spell/SLA unless your Concentration check succeeds ("If the Concentration check succeeds, you may attempt the action...").
On the other hand, it says that the related action fails with any appropriate ramifications. Does an AoO for casting while threatened qualify here?


Have I been playing this skill wrong for the past decade? Or am I just overthinking things?

[Greenish]

You're attempting the concentration check to cast defensively, ie. without provoking. If the check fails, you fail to cast without provoking, so you provoke. It then mentions your spell also automatically fails.

That's how I read it, anyway. Maybe you are overthinking it.

[Piggy Knowles]

You're attempting the concentration check to cast defensively, ie. without provoking. If the check fails, you fail to cast without provoking, so you provoke. It then mentions your spell also automatically fails.

That's how I read it, anyway. Maybe you are overthinking it.

Again, that's how I've always read it before too. I was just looking at it, and noticed that it says you don't actually attempt to cast unless you succeed on the check, so the AoO-triggering action never occurs. Now I'm worried I've been doing it wrong :smalltongue:

[Hamste]

I take it to mean you are so focused on not doing anything that would give them a chance to attack you (I.E. dodging out of the way and moving about in the square) that you can't concentrate and you can't cast. You don't give them a chance to stab at you but you can't cast the spell either.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The real thing to read is simply casting defensively

Casting Defensively
If you want to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, you must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the spell you’re casting) to succeed. You lose the spell if you fail.

It doesn't say you suffer an AoO simply the spell fails. So from that we can conclude that "attempting to do X" on the the defensive always prevents the AoO but the concentration check is what allows you to succeed on doing X.

[crayzz]

I'd say the exception proves the rule.

The SRD specifies that, when casting defensively, one does not incur an AoO. Similar to how "No parking on Wednesdays" legally allows parking on other days despite not specifying that, I'd argue that one does incur an AoO if one fails the check to cast defensively.

[Gnome Alone]

A little bird told me that casting defensively without even the chance to provoke an AoO makes casting defensively even more "cheep cheep cheep" in the first place.

[Lord Vukodlak]

A little bird told me that casting defensively without even the chance to provoke an AoO makes casting defensively even more "cheep cheep cheep" in the first place.

What? why would one cast on the defensively if there wasn't a chance of an AoO in the first place. You don't gain anything, the spell fails if you fail the check. I suppose if your concentration is high enough you can't fail you might as well just in case there's an invisible guy around.

[navar100]

If it helps . . .

Even though Pathfinder doesn't have a Concentration skill it still has casting defensively. The rules clarify specifically casting defensively negates the attack of opportunity. If you fail the check (harder than 3E but not too hard) you lose the spell.

There is feat that allows you take the attack of opportunity when the opposing spellcaster fails the check.

[jhardin87]

I've always understood it that casting a spell normally in combat would be like drawing an item from your pack or drinking a potion and would provoke an AoO. However while casting defensively you are splitting your concentration between the spell and any enemy combatants being mindful not to leave yourself open to attack. Because you are splitting your attention you have to make the concentration check to be able to successfully cast the spell. If you fail the check it indicates you were focused too much on the combat and not enough on the spell, causing you to botch its casting. You don't provoke an AoO, you just lost the spell specifically because you were too busy preventing an AoO. This concept is reinforced by feats such as Disruptive, which allows a fighter to be more distracting to casters making it harder for them to cast defensively and Spellbreaker which teaches a fighter to watch specifically for that one brief, stunned, break in concentration when a caster loses their spell.

[Lord Vukodlak]

If it helps . . .

Even though Pathfinder doesn't have a Concentration skill it still has casting defensively. The rules clarify specifically casting defensively negates the attack of opportunity. If you fail the check (harder than 3E but not too hard) you lose the spell.

There is feat that allows you take the attack of opportunity when the opposing spellcaster fails the check.

A little misleading to those not versed in Pathfinder just like 3.5 dropped the Scry skill from 3rd edition and made it a caster level check. Pathfinder dropped the concentration skill and made it a caster level check.

[Greenish]

What?He meant "Casting defensively is very good. If casting defensively didn't provoke even when the concentration check fails it'd be much better."

[Piggy Knowles]

He meant "Casting defensively is very good. If casting defensively didn't provoke even when the concentration check fails it'd be much better."

Eh, it would be better, but not THAT much better. You still lose your action and lose your spell - taking some extra damage on top of that is nice, but you're still pretty hosed if you fail the check.