Elan's happy ending: Spoiler

[GSFB]

Lots of talk about Tarquin, or possibly Sabine, raising Nale. I haven't yet seen this other scenario, though: Elan raising Nale.

Elan would only need a drop of Nale's blood, as Roy stated in 911 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html). Elan is now with Haley, right next to Tarquin, who has a dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html) now covered in Nale's blood. Haley is a skilled enough rogue to take that dagger.

Elan loves Nale, even though Nale is evil. Elan would do ANYTHING to make his family whole again. Elan would be motivated to raise Nale, even if logic - and his team members - were against it.

What happens if Nale is raised? Depends who raises him. If Tarquin raises Nale, then he would just come back resentful, and the family problems continue, likely resulting in one killing the other. If Sabine raises Nale, he would come back wanting revenge. But Elan?

If Elan raised Nale, it would have a profound impact on him. Nale always wanted - but never received - his father's respect. Nor has he ever known unconditional love. But if Elan raised Nale, Nale would suddenly realize he has those things from his brother. Now sure, Nale has always been EVIL. He would continue to be evil. No question there. But even a very evil person can know love. Would Nale have an epiphany about Elan?

I could totally see, in this scenario, Nale coming back and, out of love and respect for his brother, ending his war with the Order of the Stick. He would still be an evil NPC going out to do evil things - but he would always have his brother's back instead of putting a knife in it. This would be the happy ending Elan was promised by the Oracle. And think about it:

Many believe Elan's happy ending will simply be saving the world and marrying Haley. But would that really be anything above and beyond what we already expect? That is the cliche. As Elan is genre-savvy, he already knows how the story is meant to end: the story is MEANT to end with the good guy saving the world and getting the girl. Sure, that is "happy" enough - but it is going to happen. There is nothing gained by a prophecy telling us all this. But an ending in which Elan and Nale reconcile would be happy, and would be happy IN ADDITION TO the predicted save-world-get-girl trope.

Also, it doesn't have to happen soon. Once Elan has the bloodied dagger, he can save-world-get-girl FIRST, raise Nale later - which would make sense, as raising Nale first would risk complications to the other. Thus, assuming once save-world-get-girl is completed, the story is all but over, raising Nale and having a reconciliation would actually be the END of the story.

Thoughts?

[NerdyKris]

Lots of talk about Tarquin, or possibly Sabine, raising Nale. I haven't yet seen this other scenario, though: Elan raising Nale.

This has been brought up in BOTH other threads, actually. And Elan would have to convince the party that it's a good idea, while being unconvinced of the sheer stupidity of his actions. And he's not that stupid. He's going to understand, like in the illusion, that Nale will never be friends with him.

That was the whole point of his epiphany. Changing his mind would just be poor storytelling, not to mention the leap of logic required to ignore all his trusted teammates and the multiple times Nale has tried to kill him.

[Kish]

Much as I hate to say this, for Elan's sake...

...I don't think Nale is at all likely to reform, in any way, on any level, ever. Any more than Xykon is--or Tarquin. I think Nale's going to stay down, but if he gets back up, Elan will still be one of his worst enemies.

[Amphiox]

I think Elan has grown enough that he would be unlikely to consider doing this during the remainder of the quest. It is far too much of a risk and Nale is too dangerous, and Elan understands that now.

After it is all over, when the world is safe and all the other major evil threats have been neutralized, it is possible he might think about trying it. He could bring the dagger to a secured location, and have Nale res'ed basically in a maximum security prison. If he did this, he would probably commit himself to personally guarding Nale for the rest of their lives (or until the unlikely event that Nale reforms) to make sure he doesn't escape to harm anyone else. Nale will lose a level to the resurrection and Elan may gain several by the end of his adventures, so he will be substantially more powerful.

But would committing himself to be Nale's permanent personal jailer (his brother's keeper!) be a happy ending for Elan?

[NerdyKris]

Or more importantly, would Nale accept being raised just to go to prison?

[The Pilgrim]

Elan could do it. If not for Nale, for his mom. Elan has stated at least two times that his mom missed Nale. So, raising him and dropping him by his mother, that would be a nice move by Elan. Plus, the love of a long-lost mother reforming an evil guy, that would be a very family-friendly happy ending. :smalltongue:

Of course, the problem with that course of action is that chances are good that Nale's first reaction would be to kill his mom because she chose Elan over him. So...

But, wait! Luckly for Elan, his cleric friend who can rez Nale is, also, a Vampire!. Elan can ask Durkon to rez Nale, then ask Durkon to drain Nale until he is left as a Level 1 character. Then he could drop him with his mother and hope his mom can reform Nale. Yep, it's a nedlessy complicated plan, which means his Mom would love it and Nale would at least respect it. :smalltongue:

But, nah, too puke-rainbows, too many plot holes (can a barmaid NPC keep even a lvl1 character under check? what about Sabine? etc...) and too much filler. This book is already running too long.

[Echobox]

Comic #889 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0889.html): "What's real... is that my family is screwed up and broken. And it's not just going to get magically fixed, ever."

Elan's huge, spell-breaking epiphany is that some things can't be fixed. To have him try to resurrect Nale, in the hope that this will show Nale the Power of Love and cause him to become a loyal, loving brother...

That's not going to happen.

[Bulldog Psion]

Elan's horrified, but he's not going to resurrect Nale in my opinion. He's got bigger fish to fry, and Nale was an enemy regardless.

[Amphiox]

Elan could do it. If not for Nale, for his mom. Elan has stated at least two times that his mom missed Nale. So, raising him and dropping him by his mother, that would be a nice move by Elan. Plus, the love of a long-lost mother reforming an evil guy, that would be a very family-friendly happy ending. :smalltongue:

Of course, the problem with that course of action is that chances are good that Nale's first reaction would be to kill his mom because she chose Elan over him. So...

But, wait! Luckly for Elan, his cleric friend who can rez Nale is, also, a Vampire!. Elan can ask Durkon to rez Nale, then ask Durkon to drain Nale until he is left as a Level 1 character. Then he could drop him with his mother and hope his mom can reform Nale. Yep, it's a nedlessy complicated plan, which means his Mom would love it and Nale would at least respect it. :smalltongue:

But, nah, too puke-rainbows, too many plot holes (can a barmaid NPC keep even a lvl1 character under check? what about Sabine? etc...) and too much filler. This book is already running too long.

Aside from the practical issues, I don't think Elan would choose to do this for ethical reason. To drain someone's levels is the same as forcibly taking away from them abilities and skills that they spent years of effort to acquire. It would be equivalent to lobotomizing Einstein, or amputating Usain Bolt's legs. It is a massive violation of someone's personal integrity and bodily autonomy. There's a reason why level draining abilities are almost always associated with evil characters. Underneath the sterile game mechanics we are talking about something utterly horrific. And to do it for the sake of a third party (Elan's mother) smacks with vibes of slavery and turning Nale into a commodity.

Even if Nale deserves to be treated this way it is still an evil thing to do to anyone. A pragmatic goodish character might consider it (but if they didn't have qualms I would call them fallen to neutral right then and their). An idealistic heroic good character like Elan wouldn't countenance such a thing. Nor would I think that Elan's mother be too happy to see one of her sons flat out violate his brother like that.

[Amphiox]

Or more importantly, would Nale accept being raised just to go to prison?

I don't think he'd have much chance to object. The resurrected person is brought back at the place the spell is cast, but the soul is only told the alignment and god of the cleric casting the spell. He wouldn't know where the spell was being cast.

So just cast the spell inside the prison.

[Scow2]

If Elan raised Nale, it would have a profound impact on him. Nale always wanted - but never received - his father's respect. Nor has he ever known unconditional love. But if Elan raised Nale, Nale would suddenly realize he has those things from his brother. Now sure, Nale has always been EVIL. He would continue to be evil. No question there. But even a very evil person can know love. Would Nale have an epiphany about Elan?

Here's the flaw in your argument - Nale has always had his father's respect and love, but he didn't want it or acknowledge it. He found them to be constraining, largely because the idea that someone can make stuff happen despite not planning it out in advance is beyond him. He wanted to be his own thing. Elan has saved Nale numerous times, even when it's in 'his better interest' to kill his brother.

[BlackDragonKing]

If Elan raised Nale, it would have a profound impact on him. Nale always wanted - but never received - his father's respect. Nor has he ever known unconditional love. But if Elan raised Nale, Nale would suddenly realize he has those things from his brother. Now sure, Nale has always been EVIL. He would continue to be evil. No question there. But even a very evil person can know love. Would Nale have an epiphany about Elan?

I feel bad for Elan saying this, but I think he knows as we know that that's not likely how Nale would react, it's how Elan would WANT him to react. :smallfrown:

We've seen Elan's vision of happiness from the illusion; the big factor that breaks his suspension of disbelief is that Nale finally gets tired of fighting him and just wants to spend some time with his family, which is what Elan wants but knows can never be; Elan would have been happy in his own naive way to have made peace with the entire Linear Guild, and even the Empire of Blood, if it wasn't for the unforgiving realities that make this impossible.

As far as Nale having an epiphany for Elan saving him when he has every reason to let him take the consequences for his actions AGAIN...it's unfortunate for Elan, but if Nale was the sort of person who had epiphanies and examined his actions in response to kindness or mercy from another, he would not be Nale. It's the same as Tarquin becoming overcome with remorse for all the evil things he's done and surrendering to Elan rather than forcing the issue; it would make Elan happy, but if Tarquin was that kind of person, he wouldn't be Tarquin. Being as ungrateful as a bucket of scorpions and about as dangerous to try embracing is who Nale is, and I think that while it's a sad, bitter idea for Elan to swallow, the fact is there was nothing he could have done that would make Nale appreciate that Elan never wanted to be his enemy.

[Valanarch]

Elan might want to raise Nale. That doesn't matter though, because nobody else in the party would agree to using their last diamonds to resurrect him, especially since they are still looking for V and think that they need them to resurrect him/her. Even after V gets back, do you really think that Durkon or Roy would agree to raising Nale? V almost certainly wouldn't either, Haley probably wouldn't, and Belkar would only do it so he could kill Nale himself as soon as he was resurrected.

[DaggerPen]

Lots of talk about Tarquin, or possibly Sabine, raising Nale. I haven't yet seen this other scenario, though: Elan raising Nale.

Elan would only need a drop of Nale's blood, as Roy stated in 911 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html). Elan is now with Haley, right next to Tarquin, who has a dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html) now covered in Nale's blood. Haley is a skilled enough rogue to take that dagger.

Elan loves Nale, even though Nale is evil. Elan would do ANYTHING to make his family whole again. Elan would be motivated to raise Nale, even if logic - and his team members - were against it.

What happens if Nale is raised? Depends who raises him. If Tarquin raises Nale, then he would just come back resentful, and the family problems continue, likely resulting in one killing the other. If Sabine raises Nale, he would come back wanting revenge. But Elan?

If Elan raised Nale, it would have a profound impact on him. Nale always wanted - but never received - his father's respect. Nor has he ever known unconditional love. But if Elan raised Nale, Nale would suddenly realize he has those things from his brother. Now sure, Nale has always been EVIL. He would continue to be evil. No question there. But even a very evil person can know love. Would Nale have an epiphany about Elan?

I could totally see, in this scenario, Nale coming back and, out of love and respect for his brother, ending his war with the Order of the Stick. He would still be an evil NPC going out to do evil things - but he would always have his brother's back instead of putting a knife in it. This would be the happy ending Elan was promised by the Oracle. And think about it:

Many believe Elan's happy ending will simply be saving the world and marrying Haley. But would that really be anything above and beyond what we already expect? That is the cliche. As Elan is genre-savvy, he already knows how the story is meant to end: the story is MEANT to end with the good guy saving the world and getting the girl. Sure, that is "happy" enough - but it is going to happen. There is nothing gained by a prophecy telling us all this. But an ending in which Elan and Nale reconcile would be happy, and would be happy IN ADDITION TO the predicted save-world-get-girl trope.

Also, it doesn't have to happen soon. Once Elan has the bloodied dagger, he can save-world-get-girl FIRST, raise Nale later - which would make sense, as raising Nale first would risk complications to the other. Thus, assuming once save-world-get-girl is completed, the story is all but over, raising Nale and having a reconciliation would actually be the END of the story.

Thoughts?

I rather like this idea. It keeps Nale out of the story for the foreseeable future, but it lets us have the "Nale meets his mother" plot I'd kind of been hoping for, and it seems like someone Elan might do. I doubt it'll actually happen, but it would be neat.

[Echobox]

I don't think he'd have much chance to object. The resurrected person is brought back at the place the spell is cast, but the soul is only told the alignment and god of the cleric casting the spell. He wouldn't know where the spell was being cast.

So just cast the spell inside the prison.

This is a common misconception. According to the SRD, "A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis."

Nale would know that he is being resurrected by Durkon, a lawful evil cleric of no deity. This is not a call he is likely to answer.

[The Pilgrim]

Aside from the practical issues, I don't think Elan would choose to do this for ethical reason. To drain someone's levels is the same as forcibly taking away from them abilities and skills that they spent years of effort to acquire. It would be equivalent to lobotomizing Einstein, or amputating Usain Bolt's legs. It is a massive violation of someone's personal integrity and bodily autonomy. There's a reason why level draining abilities are almost always associated with evil characters. Underneath the sterile game mechanics we are talking about something utterly horrific. And to do it for the sake of a third party (Elan's mother) smacks with vibes of slavery and turning Nale into a commodity.

Even if Nale deserves to be treated this way it is still an evil thing to do to anyone. A pragmatic goodish character might consider it (but if they didn't have qualms I would call them fallen to neutral right then and their). An idealistic heroic good character like Elan wouldn't countenance such a thing. Nor would I think that Elan's mother be too happy to see one of her sons flat out violate his brother like that.

Mmmmh... you have a point.

However, sending Nale back to lvl1 is not the same as practicing a lobotomy or amputation. I mean, there would be no damage to his attributes and nothing would impede Nale from raising back to a mid-high level characte the hard way. And Nale is still young.

It's true that it would be harsh and near evil, and Nale would suffer a lot in the process (being drained isn't funny). But intention counts, and if someone can pull off the "I do this for your own good" thing, it's Elan. He would indeed do it for Nale's own good, giving him a second chance to become a person instead of an evil monster and a second chance to become a reasonably well-built character instead of an unpotimized wreck (I mean, pick a class and stick to it already).

Trough you have a point in that the course of action would bee too much against Elan's nature, and the scenario is too irreal already.

But a man can dream...

EDIT: Someone says Nale would refuse to be raised by Durkon. I think Nale's soul is so outraged right now, that if the IFCC and/or Sabine fail to bail him out, he would be willing to hold onto any straw, no matter how tiny, just to get back into the game and have a chance (no matter how low) in the (no matter how far) future to exterminate his father.

[Synesthesy]

Lots of talk about Tarquin, or possibly Sabine, raising Nale. I haven't yet seen this other scenario, though: Elan raising Nale.


in reality that was MY idea, i posted (but now I can't find) that

'Durkula will resurrect Nale becouse Elan ask him to do so. Becouse he's the Good Tween, not the Neutral one'

[Silverionmox]

Nale is not going to happily agree with a non-aggression pact either. If you raise him for free, that just means that you're a sucker and he'll gloat extra hard when he stabs you in the back. He's nowhere near that level of insight ("You vampirized Durkon? That's hilarious!).

[Lord Vukodlak]

Many believe Elan's happy ending will simply be saving the world and marrying Haley. But would that really be anything above and beyond what we already expect? That is the cliche. As Elan is genre-savvy, he already knows how the story is meant to end: the story is MEANT to end with the good guy saving the world and getting the girl. Sure, that is "happy" enough - but it is going to happen. There is nothing gained by a prophecy telling us all this. But an ending in which Elan and Nale reconcile would be happy, and would be happy IN ADDITION TO the predicted save-world-get-girl trope.

This isn't exactly a comic that defies cliches at every turn, they in fact lamp shade the cliches then stroll right into them. Your forgetting the Oracle said.

"For you at least." Those are the words we should focus on.

That implies that perhaps no one else gets a happy ending. Sure the good guys win but V's lost hir family possibly forever and must live with the guilt of the genocide hir caused.

Belkar is fated to die and Durkon who was by the way was prophesied to bring death and destruction upon his return.(which is why he was banished to begin with) has now become a vampire, allowing him to return home posthumously(as the Oracle predicted) Allowing him to fulfill the first prophecy.

Roy might not get a happy ending either, he's the leader of the group after all which could mean he either performs a heroic sacrifice allowing them to save the day... or ends up the only survivor after Redcloak and Xykon kill the rest of the party.

Elan and Haley don't have to survive in order to get a happy ending, spending eternity together in Chaotic Good Heaven is a happy ending for them even if its tragic for everyone else.(especially us).

I can even take the happy ending away from Haley and make it bitter sweet. Elan performs the heroic sacrifice saving her life. Elan gets a happy ending because he got to die saving the woman he loves and for Haley its bitter sweet because she left him something to remember him by. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SomeoneToRememberHimBy)

Yeah Elan gets a happy ending but he may be the only member of the Order who gets it.

[Kish]

This isn't exactly a comic that defies cliches at every turn, they in fact lamp shade the cliches then stroll right into them. Your forgetting the Oracle said.

"For you at least." Those are the words we should focus on.

That implies that perhaps no one else gets a happy ending.
Suppose, for the moment, that you're right about "the words we should focus on" and right about what they imply.

If you were the Oracle, Elan had just asked "Will this story have a happy ending?" and the correct answer was that Roy, Elan, Haley, Durkon, Celia, and Redcloak's brother would all get happy endings; Belkar, Vaarsuvius, Ho Thanh, Therkla, Xykon, Redcloak, the Linear Guild, Tarquin, and Bozzok would all get unpleasant endings. And you didn't want to volunteer any extra information, because you don't like the Order. Yet you will, I hope, agree that neither "Yes" nor "No" by itself would be a correct answer to Elan's question at all.

What would you say?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Suppose, for the moment, that you're right about "the words we should focus on" and right about what they imply.

If you were the Oracle, Elan had just asked "Will this story have a happy ending?" and the correct answer was that Roy, Elan, Haley, Durkon, Celia, and Redcloak's brother would all get happy endings; Belkar, Vaarsuvius, Ho Thanh, Therkla, Xykon, Redcloak, the Linear Guild, Tarquin, and Bozzok would all get unpleasant endings. And you didn't want to volunteer any extra information, because you don't like the Order. Yet you will, I hope, agree that neither "Yes" nor "No" by itself would be a correct answer to Elan's question at all.

What would you say?

I'm not sure I understood half of that.

[Amphiox]

This is a common misconception. According to the SRD, "A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis."

Nale would know that he is being resurrected by Durkon, a lawful evil cleric of no deity. This is not a call he is likely to answer.

Elan doesn't necessarily have to use Durkon as the cleric casting Resurrection. And that STILL means that Nale won't know the location or circumstances of his resurrection, so it is perfectly possible to arrange a situation where Nale gets resurrected in the middle of a secure prison and he wouldn't know enough about it to refuse beforehand because of that aspect.

[Yendor]

Elan doesn't necessarily have to use Durkon as the cleric casting Resurrection. And that STILL means that Nale won't know the location or circumstances of his resurrection, so it is perfectly possible to arrange a situation where Nale gets resurrected in the middle of a secure prison and he wouldn't know enough about it to refuse beforehand because of that aspect.

So Elan is going to deliberately trick his brother into getting raised in the middle of a prison, possibly for the rest of his life.

Are we talking about the same Elan here?

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

This was actually one of the first things I thought would happen. It's completely keeping in character with Élan; even though Nale is a total a-hole, he was still conflicted about what to think of Nale. I think it's gonna happen, or Élan will at least try to get him resurrected. Nale is likely to stay evil, but he'll probably stop hating his twin, and may actually become a minor protagonist (though that's unlikely).

[Lord Vukodlak]

So Elan is going to deliberately trick his brother into getting raised in the middle of a prison, possibly for the rest of his life.

Are we talking about the same Elan here?

Not from where I'm sitting.

[Forikroder]

Lots of talk about Tarquin, or possibly Sabine, raising Nale. I haven't yet seen this other scenario, though: Elan raising Nale.

Elan would only need a drop of Nale's blood, as Roy stated in 911 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html). Elan is now with Haley, right next to Tarquin, who has a dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html) now covered in Nale's blood. Haley is a skilled enough rogue to take that dagger.

Elan loves Nale, even though Nale is evil. Elan would do ANYTHING to make his family whole again. Elan would be motivated to raise Nale, even if logic - and his team members - were against it.

What happens if Nale is raised? Depends who raises him. If Tarquin raises Nale, then he would just come back resentful, and the family problems continue, likely resulting in one killing the other. If Sabine raises Nale, he would come back wanting revenge. But Elan?

If Elan raised Nale, it would have a profound impact on him. Nale always wanted - but never received - his father's respect. Nor has he ever known unconditional love. But if Elan raised Nale, Nale would suddenly realize he has those things from his brother. Now sure, Nale has always been EVIL. He would continue to be evil. No question there. But even a very evil person can know love. Would Nale have an epiphany about Elan?

I could totally see, in this scenario, Nale coming back and, out of love and respect for his brother, ending his war with the Order of the Stick. He would still be an evil NPC going out to do evil things - but he would always have his brother's back instead of putting a knife in it. This would be the happy ending Elan was promised by the Oracle. And think about it:

Many believe Elan's happy ending will simply be saving the world and marrying Haley. But would that really be anything above and beyond what we already expect? That is the cliche. As Elan is genre-savvy, he already knows how the story is meant to end: the story is MEANT to end with the good guy saving the world and getting the girl. Sure, that is "happy" enough - but it is going to happen. There is nothing gained by a prophecy telling us all this. But an ending in which Elan and Nale reconcile would be happy, and would be happy IN ADDITION TO the predicted save-world-get-girl trope.

Also, it doesn't have to happen soon. Once Elan has the bloodied dagger, he can save-world-get-girl FIRST, raise Nale later - which would make sense, as raising Nale first would risk complications to the other. Thus, assuming once save-world-get-girl is completed, the story is all but over, raising Nale and having a reconciliation would actually be the END of the story.

Thoughts?

Elan's already come to terms taht his family is beyond repair, and Nales not smart enough to ever give up on becoming world emporer

[Giggling Ghast]

Elan already saved Nale once. It meant nothing to him. If raised, Nale would probably gloat about weak and stupid Elan was for helping him.

[tomandtish]

I'm not sure I understood half of that.

The definition of a happy ending is relative. The Oracle clarified that point with his answer. Elan will get a happy ending. He made no promises one way or the other about anyone else, whether a member of the order, Team Evil, etc.

Therefore, what Kish was saying what that the Oracle couldn't just say "yes" or "no", because some may get a happy ending, and some may not. For instance, for Therkla, this story already did not have a happy ending. Therefore if the Oracle just said "yes", that would not be true.

The Oracle seems to give very literal answers. This means that if you ask a very broad question, you either get a very narrow answer that is sometimes useless ("in his throneroom") or or something vague and cryptic that only makes sense after the fact (right 4 words etc.). Interestingly, his answer to Elan seems to be one of the more straightforward and open responses he's given.

[Forikroder]

The definition of a happy ending is relative. The Oracle clarified that point with his answer. Elan will get a happy ending. He made no promises one way or the other about anyone else, whether a member of the order, Team Evil, etc.

Therefore, what Kish was saying what that the Oracle couldn't just say "yes" or "no", because some may get a happy ending, and some may not. For instance, for Therkla, this story already did not have a happy ending. Therefore if the Oracle just said "yes", that would not be true.

The Oracle seems to give very literal answers. This means that if you ask a very broad question, you either get a very narrow answer that is sometimes useless ("in his throneroom") or or something vague and cryptic that only makes sense after the fact (right 4 words etc.). Interestingly, his answer to Elan seems to be one of the more straightforward and open responses he's given.

i think its safe to say that Belkar and Durkon at elast wont get a happy ending