What if Redcloak wins?

[Turtlesbanes]

Let's assume for a second that Redcloak pulls it off. He tricks Xykon, he transfers control of the gate to the Dark One, and brings about a new era of goblinoid power. Is that so bad? He doesn't plan to unleash the snarl. He just wants equality. The world already has the empires of blood, sweat, and tears, who are clearly evil. Why not have a relatively peaceful "evil" nation of goblinoids? The Azurites already have a new fortress to live in. And if goblins have a homeland that can support them, they can stop being so aggressive and militaristic as a means of survival, and slowly acclimate to civilized life. Less goblins get killed, less humans get killed and nobody gets unmade by a godkilling abomination.

Thoughts?

[Zmeoaice]

Well we know that Redcloak is okay with slavery, and is pretty drunk with power, so the new world might be Goblin supremist instead of goblin equality.

[137beth]

I think The Dark One might be after a bit of revenge for how he was betrayed in SoD. Possibly "equality, plus interest for the 100 extra years it took us to get here".

[The Pilgrim]

Note that Recloak has already conquered a homeland for the Goblins.

SoD spoilers:
Destroying in the process the nation and the paladin order who slaughtered his family and village

So Redcloak has already won, in a sense.

[Mando Knight]

He says he's out for equality, but "equality" to him apparently means "now we get to destroy your civilizations for a few millennia without any repercussions!"

[Muenster Man]

Let's assume for a second that Redcloak pulls it off. He tricks Xykon, he transfers control of the gate to the Dark One, and brings about a new era of goblinoid power. Is that so bad? He doesn't plan to unleash the snarl. He just wants equality. The world already has the empires of blood, sweat, and tears, who are clearly evil. Why not have a relatively peaceful "evil" nation of goblinoids? The Azurites already have a new fortress to live in. And if goblins have a homeland that can support them, they can stop being so aggressive and militaristic as a means of survival, and slowly acclimate to civilized life. Less goblins get killed, less humans get killed and nobody gets unmade by a godkilling abomination.

Thoughts?

Just because there is a more evil empire in the world does not a mean a less evil empire/nation/whatever has to or needs to exist.

I think if he can pull it off successfully, things will be better off for goblinoids and by extension many other races because goblins may not be so likely to be evil if they aren't the butt-monkey race of the world. But that assumes Gobbotopia won't take vengeance against others. That assumes that it can successfully lead itself for any real length of time. And that assumes the Dark One isn't lying to Redcloak or the Snarl is too much for even the Dark One to control. A long time ago Redcloak threw all of his chips into a 1-in-a-thousound chance that this works out well for goblins, and I don't think those odds have gotten terribly better since he's started.

[Secris]

Yeah, I don't see this as a quest for equality, at least not anymore. The gobbos have their new nation that is being recognized by many other nations and is even trading with some of them if I recall. And yet he continues to quest for control of a gate containing a god-killing abomination that he plans to hand over to his God that will then use it for a power play against the other Gods.

[tomandtish]

Just because there is a more evil empire in the world does not a mean a less evil empire/nation/whatever has to or needs to exist.

I think if he can pull it off successfully, things will be better off for goblinoids and by extension many other races because goblins may not be so likely to be evil if they aren't the butt-monkey race of the world. But that assumes Gobbotopia won't take vengeance against others. That assumes that it can successfully lead itself for any real length of time. And that assumes the Dark One isn't lying to Redcloak or the Snarl is too much for even the Dark One to control. A long time ago Redcloak threw all of his chips into a 1-in-a-thousound chance that this works out well for goblins, and I don't think those odds have gotten terribly better since he's started.

And that assumes that even The Dark One knows what's going on inside those rifts. At this point, all we really know is that we don't know what is in there at present, and it seems to be becomeing more apparent that no one else seems to actually know either (or is sharing at any rate).

[137beth]

Yeah, I don't see this as a quest for equality, at least not anymore. The gobbos have their new nation that is being recognized by many other nations and is even trading with some of them if I recall. And yet he continues to quest for control of a gate containing a god-killing abomination that he plans to hand over to his God that will then use it for a power play against the other Gods.

Alternatively, he recognizes that the biggest single threat to Gobbotopia may be an enraged Xykon flying around killing goblins, and is keeping up the charade of the Plan partially to distract Xykon.
Of course, that theory is largely undercut by his desire to kill the OOTS even when Xykon objected.

[Morty]

It's really hard, if not impossible, to answer this question, because what would constitute a 'win' for Redcloak is hardly clear. Does he know that himself? What would count as a 'win' for his god is even less clear, because everything we know about him, we got from second-hand sources. Equality for goblins is a desirable prospect, and one they deserve, but is that what's going to happen? Like the posters above me said, both Redcloak and the Dark One are vengeful and hold gigantic grudges against the human race... and they're not terribly sympathetic to all the other PC races, either.

Add to that the fact we don't really know if the Plan has any chance of working even if Redcloak gets his hands on an intact Gate. In fact, the likelihood of it working is decreasing with every hit we get that what we - and conversely the Order and the Team Evil - know about the Gates is, at best, incomplete. There may be no Snarl to teleport to the gods' domains anymore. There may never have been one, who knows.

So, yeah. My answer, at this point, is 'who the hell knows', because we sure don't know. The Plan may not work. The Dark One's motivations are murky at best. Redcloak's motivations are, I think, caught up in trying to justify past sacrifices and getting revenge. He may not know, or care, what will happen if they seize a Gate and enact the Plan, because what he really wants is to get there and make sure all he's done in pursuit of that goal mattered.

[Deliverance]

Let's assume for a second that Redcloak pulls it off. He tricks Xykon, he transfers control of the gate to the Dark One, and brings about a new era of goblinoid power. Is that so bad? He doesn't plan to unleash the snarl. He just wants equality. The world already has the empires of blood, sweat, and tears, who are clearly evil. Why not have a relatively peaceful "evil" nation of goblinoids? The Azurites already have a new fortress to live in. And if goblins have a homeland that can support them, they can stop being so aggressive and militaristic as a means of survival, and slowly acclimate to civilized life. Less goblins get killed, less humans get killed and nobody gets unmade by a godkilling abomination.

Thoughts?
What makes you assume that what Redcloak believes is the Dark One's plan is the entirety of the Dark One's plan or even the major part of it?

Put it another way, in just about any other story somebody doing "evil in a good cause" in pursuit of a utopian plan risking the very existence of the world (and considering the world being destroyed a good second best to winning), that starts out with that guy getting his plan force-fed into his mind after donning an artefact created by an evil god, levitating in the air while his eyes light up, an experience from which he staggers away repeating that the plan must succeed (as seen in SOD), the reader would at least consider the possibility that the goal the guy believes he is pursuing might not be one hundred percent identical to the goal of the evil god, who created the artefact. :D

Now, it is entirely possible that the Giant is going with the "what Redcloak believes is the truth about his god's plan IS his god's plan", but based on the story so far, I do think we can be allowed just a bit of doubt. :)

Redcloak: Dupe or Liberator? With a bit of luck we will know by the end of the series.

[Synesthesy]

Well, i actually hope that, instead of a cliché happy ending, Redcloak will win. He is right about goblinoids. What he seeks is not revenge, but justice. If he stops here, I'm with him.

[Mammal]

I think an interesting turn of events would be for Redcloak to be killed by the other Goblins-without going into detail, there's a historical and fictional precedent for civic leaders to do away with their more violent and extremist partners in revolution. Having someone like Redcloak running around, trying to unmake the world could be the largest threat to the long-term stability of Gobbotopia. It would be good for respectability's sake to take him out of the equation, so to speak.

[Mando Knight]

The Redcloak that explained The Plan to us is one that's far younger and more naïve than the one that founded a goblin nation on the ruins of Azure City and murdered co-workers in cold blood to preserve The Plan. Even then, he acknowledged that the purpose of the ritual is to drop the Snarl on other gods to "level the playing field." A playing field where one side and only one side has the weapon to wipe out its competition isn't level.

In other words, The Plan as a means of creating equality for goblinoids among humanoids is total propaganda, and the only way in which Redcloak believes it is in a twisted "equality means I'm more equal than you" manner.

[Xelbiuj]

Not like he can stop now, "I'm done Xykon, the gobli . . . "
*METEOR SWARM*

[Unisus]

Not like he can stop now, "I'm done Xykon, the gobli . . . "
*METEOR SWARM*

I don't think it's Xykon that keeps Redcloak from stopping - there was someone else saying Don't screw this up! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html)

[Secris]

With control of Xykon's phylactery and an entire nation at his fingertips, as well as being able to prepare positive energy spells and intimate knowledge of Xykon's strategies and spells, I believe Redcloak could have defeated Xykon with some very, very careful planning. This might have come at the cost of scores of goblin lives, and maybe even tricking the MitD to help, but I believe a sufficient trap could have been sprung at Gobbotopia to end the threat of Xykon forever. Instead, he continues to use/be used by Xykon because he knows Xykon's power is the best way to control the gate.

[Anarion]

Redcloak has demonstrated that, from a mental standpoint, he's incapable of stopping what he's doing at this point. He has several times expressed the opinion that, if he were to stop now, all the goblins that he has led to their deaths would have died in vain. So, his winning, imo, wouldn't be anything short of full power for the Dark One and total goblin control of the world.

If everything worked as advertised (which is highly questionable given what we've seen of the rifts), it wouldn't end the world, but it would subject it to a reign of total evil. I don't think the Dark One would be content with a world some good kingdoms, some evil kingdoms, some goblins, some others. It would be a plan to conquer the whole world and make everybody, except bloodthirsty halflings, pretty miserable. Roy explains. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)



I don't think it's Xykon that keeps Redcloak from stopping - there was someone else saying Don't screw this up! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html)

I took this as more of a warning. That is, the Dark One knows Redcloak plans to continue no matter what and wants him to be really careful because every gain they've ever made could be lost, perhaps permanently, if Redcloak blows it.

[DeadMG]

I think more interestingly would be is if TE performs the ritual, but because the Snarl and the rifts aren't what TDO (and optionally, the other gods) think they are, the Ritual does nothing and/or backfires. I think this is basically the only way the Redcloak/Xykon tension can pay off, as opposed to just build up.

[rs2excelsior]

As has been posted before, I don't think Redcloak is out for equality. He is out for vengeance. He wants to see Azure City specifically brought to its knees, which he has done now. He straight up says he's in it for revenge here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html). He wants to make the paladins suffer for what they did. If he was truly in it for equality, if all he wanted was a homeland for all goblins, he could have set it up anywhere, not just on the ruins of Azure City. He even had a walled city of hobgoblins. That'd be a good place to start.

If what we know about the rifts, the snarl, and the Dark One's plan (unlikely, but right now all we have to go on), the Dark One will have a ridiculous amount of leverage. After the goblins have been stigmatized so long, I will be very surprised if they don't take advantage of that fact to put themselves on an advantageous position, not just an equal one.

And even if Redcloak was seeking equality, not dominance, and even if he managed to hold the goblins in check, what's to guarantee that his successor would be so magnanimous? Or that no other nation will see Gobbotopia as a threat (correctly or incorrectly, it's irrelevant) and attack preemptively? And I really don't see the exiles from Azure City settling themselves, rebuilding their empire, then just shrugging their shoulders and letting the goblins have a free pass after conquering their homeland, destroying their city, and killing ten thousand of their people? I don't, personally.

tl;dr No. There's no way Gobbotopia will live in peace with the other human nations. Any more than those human nations will live in peace with each other.

[137beth]

I don't think it's Xykon that keeps Redcloak from stopping - there was someone else saying Don't screw this up! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html)

I thought the "this" was Gobbotopia, not the plan...

[LadyEowyn]

I don't think Redcloak actually is interested in conquering the world. He seems happy with Gobbotopia, and isn't displaying any interest in expanding its borders.

The purpose of the Plan - at least as Redcloak understands it - is not to gain additional territory, but to change the rules of the world so that goblins are not defined as XP fodder. Which would, in my view, be a good and just thing.

It's possible the Dark One is lying about this, but we don't have any foundation for that presumption other than "he's Evil", which is a little thin given that goblins have been cosmically defined as Evil. From the little we've seen of him he appears quite reasonable - he speaks to Jirix about trade and diplomacy, not conquest, as the future of Gobbotopia.

Sure, there's a possibility that, in future, there might be wars between Gobbotopia and other nations, but that's no different from the situation between other existing nations in the Stickverse. Gobbotopia existing doesn't in itself make the world a worse place; it makes it a better one because goblins now have some place they can live without being slaughtered by any adventuring party that turns up wanting XP.

The refugees of Azure City now have a new place to live, claimed by no one else, and the opportunity to start a new life there. In the context of what Rich has said about right and wrong in the Stickverse/D&D - namely, that it's NEVER okay to slaughter people indiscriminately on the basis that their creature type is defined as Evil - the loss of Azure City looks like karmic justice, not something that's going to be reversed.

So I don't see Redcloak winning as all that bad an outcome. And - if the Snarl is indeed dangerous, as our heroes at least believe it to be - it's at least a LOT less bad than continuing to destroy gates. Going by what they know, the good guys are being at least as reckless re: potential destruction of the world as Redcloak is, and probably more so.

[Synesthesy]

Well, I don't think that Gobbotopia is enough for goblin's deity. I mean, not all goblinoids live there, not all goblinoids can live in peace their lifes.
I think that The Dark One wants ALL goblins to be safe. His goal is not just to 'level' the fight between PC's races and Monster Races, but to erase the 'aligment system' who said that all goblin MUST be evil, even women and children, and all paladin MUST be good, even who fight in goblins' genocide.

So, Gobbotopia is not enough. But I think that in the end Reddy will have his win, and the goblinoids will have justice. I think that will be Reddy to kill Xykon. He's the only one to can, he's the one who have the philactery :smalltongue:

[Porthos]

I think that The Dark One wants ALL goblins to be safe. His goal is not just to 'level' the fight between PC's races and Monster Races, but to erase the 'aligment system' who said that all goblin MUST be evil, even women and children, and all paladin MUST be good, even who fight in goblins' genocide.

Err.. The 'alignment system' doesn't say that.

[Amphiox]

I think in SoD it was implied or even stated that even if everything goes right for Redcloak and TDO, even if they get the gate and the Snarl, it is still at best 50:50 the goblinoids getting equality in this world or the world being destroyed in the course of the divine "negotiations" pertaining to the Snarl, forcing the rebuilding of a new world, but this time with TDO having a seat at the table to ensure goblinoids are created equal to begin with.

[bguy]

The purpose of the Plan - at least as Redcloak understands it - is not to gain additional territory, but to change the rules of the world so that goblins are not defined as XP fodder. Which would, in my view, be a good and just thing.

Sure, but there's a fair amount of evidence that the goblins are not actually considered just XP fodder in the Stickverse. A nation of 30,000+ hobgoblins was allowed to exist in peace just a few weeks march distance away from Azure City without being attacked by the Azurites or adventurers. Indeed the Azurites don't even seem to have been spying on them (or else they would have noticed Redcloak mobilizing the entire nation to march against Azure City.) The fact that so many hobgoblins could congregate in one place that close to a major human nation without being attacked is pretty good evidence that the other races were willing to leave the goblins in peace.

Likewise in Start of Darkness
Righteye and his family were peacefully coexisting with humans just fine when Redcloak and Xykon weren't around.


It's possible the Dark One is lying about this, but we don't have any foundation for that presumption other than "he's Evil", which is a little thin given that goblins have been cosmically defined as Evil. From the little we've seen of him he appears quite reasonable - he speaks to Jirix about trade and diplomacy, not conquest, as the future of Gobbotopia.

Well keep in mind that the Dark One's conception of diplomacy is

to form the largest army in all of history, march it up to the border of the other nations and then say, "how 'bout you give us some of your land."


Gobbotopia existing doesn't in itself make the world a worse place; it makes it a better one because goblins now have some place they can live without being slaughtered by any adventuring party that turns up wanting XP.

Except Gobbotopia is a slave state. Bringing more slavery into the world certainly makes it a worse place. And the goblins already had a place they could live without being slaughtered by any adventuring party that shows up before they attacked Azure City. Redcloak could have simply formed Gobbotopia there without killing or enslaving anyone if all he wanted to do was create a goblin nation. But Redcloak isn't about trying to lift the goblins up. He's just about trying to tear the humans and other races down.


The refugees of Azure City now have a new place to live, claimed by no one else, and the opportunity to start a new life there. In the context of what Rich has said about right and wrong in the Stickverse/D&D - namely, that it's NEVER okay to slaughter people indiscriminately on the basis that their creature type is defined as Evil - the loss of Azure City looks like karmic justice, not something that's going to be reversed.

How is it karmic justice? The people in Azure City that were killed or enslaved as a result of Redcloak's invasion weren't the ones that killed his family. Karmic justice is the person who did wrong gets punished, not their children or grandchildren.

[DeadMG]

The description of the lands available to the goblinoids strongly implies, however, that they would be too economically impoverished to ever account for much compared to the human nations. They would not be an equal nation in their own right in the same way.

[Squark]

I think it's worth pointing out that Xykon is a bigger problem (Certainly not the biggest obstacle; that's the cognitive dissonance he has going on) for stopping at Gobbotopia than some people are giving him credit for; Xykon is quite capable of whiping the floor with Redcloak; Redcloak just doesn't have the caster level to deal with Xykon's Superior Dispelling followed by Energy Drains, and remember that Xykons lazy, not stupid- We've seen him take precuations against Redcloak stabbing him in the back before; He's almost certainly recreated the ring of protection from Positive Energy he lost when the REdmountain Gate destroyed him, which means Heal isn't going to work (Plus, he's got a lot better save than Malak, and more hit points, so it's less of a threat to him), and in any conflict between the two, the MITD comes down on Xykon's side barring heroic willpower on the MitD's part- Xykon saw to that the second Redcloak was away from the two of them in SoD.

[bguy]

The description of the lands available to the goblinoids strongly implies, however, that they would be too economically impoverished to ever account for much compared to the human nations. They would not be an equal nation in their own right in the same way.

We only have the Dark One's word though that the goblins have terrible land lacking in resources. That's a pretty typical ploy for dictators, claiming that things are bad for their people not because the dictator is corrupt or incompetent, but because some outside force is denying them the resources they need.

What we see in the strips is that the hobgoblins held land sufficiently fertile to sustain a population of over 30,000 hobgoblins. That's a good size settlement for medieval era agriculture. They had sufficient resources to build an impressive looking city on that land, complete with roads, walls, towers, and bridges. (See strip 197). The settlement was located alongside a river (which is generally desirable ground as it helps with both defense and trade.) And the hobgoblin army that came from that land was well equipped with metal weapons and was capable of building siege engines which implies they have skill with both metallurgy and engineering. (Both hallmarks of an advanced civilization which in turn requires them to have adequate resources.)

Conversely, not all the human lands appear to be that great. Just look at the human lands on the Western Continent. They seem to be pretty barren.

[Turtlesbanes]

The arguments I've seen so far far are as fallows.
1: Redcloak/The Dark One is not out for justice, he's out for revenge.
It doesn't matter what Redcloak is after because he's giving control of the gate to The Dark One. The Dark One has proven to be level headed and reasonable about this in SOD when, instead of invading human territory with a massive army, he choose to try and settle things diplomatically.
2: The goblins already had a homeland as evident by the Hobgoblin Fortresses and the Goblin villages in SOD.
The land the Goblins have is nearly barren and worth next to nothing, on top of that they are being frequently invaded by Humanoids and slaughtered for XP because they're "Evil".
3: Slavery is bad.
The only people the goblins have enslaved were the former citizen of Azure City. Nobody else has been captured and there are no voiced plans to do so. I'm not saying slavery is okay as long as you only do it a little, but it's better than the western continent.
4: No Goblin state can stay peaceful with everyone forever, war is inevitable.
Same with any Humanoid states.
5: We don't really know what's going on with the gates right now, the plan might not work.
Yeah, that's true.

[Forikroder]

Let's assume for a second that Redcloak pulls it off. He tricks Xykon, he transfers control of the gate to the Dark One, and brings about a new era of goblinoid power. Is that so bad? He doesn't plan to unleash the snarl. He just wants equality. The world already has the empires of blood, sweat, and tears, who are clearly evil. Why not have a relatively peaceful "evil" nation of goblinoids? The Azurites already have a new fortress to live in. And if goblins have a homeland that can support them, they can stop being so aggressive and militaristic as a means of survival, and slowly acclimate to civilized life. Less goblins get killed, less humans get killed and nobody gets unmade by a godkilling abomination.

Thoughts?
think about it, when does the Dark One lose control of the Snarl?

lets say that TDO's plan works, the goblins get bettter stats and using there newfound strength manage to defend Gobbtopia forever

how long until the DArk one decides thats not enough? a few centuries? a few milenia?

the Dark One will eventually start asking for more

also whos to say the Goblins will truly change into a peaceful people?

[Porthos]

The arguments I've seen so far far are as fallows.
1: Redcloak/The Dark One is not out for justice, he's out for revenge.
It doesn't matter what Redcloak is after because he's giving control of the gate to The Dark One. The Dark One has proven to be level headed and reasonable about this in SOD when, instead of invading human territory with a massive army, he choose to try and settle things diplomatically.
Well, that's his story at least. We have no idea what, if anything, he is leaving out of the tale. Or if he is exaggerating.

on top of that they are being frequently invaded by Humanoids and slaughtered for XP because they're "Evil".

They are? By whom? Neither D&D nor OotS as near as I can tell presume that all goblinoids are evil.

[Turtlesbanes]

They are? By whom? Neither D&D nor OotS as near as I can tell presume that all goblinoids are evil.

D&D and OotS don't presume so, the self righteous paladins of Azure City do.

[Porthos]

D&D and OotS don't presume so, the self righteous paladins of Azure City do.

Again, near as I can tell, we don't know that all of them do.

We do know that one band did. We don't know what happened to that band afterwards though. It's very possible some of them stopped being paladins afterwards.

I wouldn't make too many presumptions one way or the other about those paladins and whether or not they stayed paladins, myself.

[137beth]

The arguments I've seen so far far are as fallows.
1: Redcloak/The Dark One is not out for justice, he's out for revenge.
It doesn't matter what Redcloak is after because he's giving control of the gate to The Dark One. The Dark One has proven to be level headed and reasonable about this in SOD when, instead of invading human territory with a massive army, he choose to try and settle things diplomatically.
2: The goblins already had a homeland as evident by the Hobgoblin Fortresses and the Goblin villages in SOD.
The land the Goblins have is nearly barren and worth next to nothing, on top of that they are being frequently invaded by Humanoids and slaughtered for XP because they're "Evil".
3: Slavery is bad.
The only people the goblins have enslaved were the former citizen of Azure City. Nobody else has been captured and there are no voiced plans to do so. I'm not saying slavery is okay as long as you only do it a little, but it's better than the western continent.
4: No Goblin state can stay peaceful with everyone forever, war is inevitable.
Same with any Humanoid states.
5: We don't really know what's going on with the gates right now, the plan might not work.
Yeah, that's true.

You're missing
6. Redcloak already accomplished the initial goal of the plan--an equal nation, so he must be out for more.
Well yea, but he can't say "ya know, I've had enough of this 'plan'" without Xykon killing him. And Xykon could do a lot of damage to Gobbotopia, likely more than anyone else could now that they are an established nation. And Gobbotopia might be the first target of Xykon's rage if he isn't kept occupied by the plan.

[Forikroder]

You're missing
6. Redcloak already accomplished the initial goal of the plan--an equal nation, so he must be out for more.
Well yea, but he can't say "ya know, I've had enough of this 'plan'" without Xykon killing him. And Xykon could do a lot of damage to Gobbotopia, likely more than anyone else could now that they are an established nation. And Gobbotopia might be the first target of Xykon's rage if he isn't kept occupied by the plan.

an equal nation for now but without Xykon protecting it Azure city can rally up its allies and take it back Gobbtopia stands for now but wont stand forever its fall is inevitable unless Redcloak suceeds

[Mando Knight]

Well, that's his story at least. We have no idea what, if anything, he is leaving out of the tale. Or if he is exaggerating.
Or if his outlook changed after he got stabbed in the back for trying diplomacy.

We do know that one band did. We don't know what happened to that band afterwards though. It's very possible some of them stopped being paladins afterwards.
Some survivors fell, according to Rich (see the Giant's comments compilation thread). However, they did have a legitimate reason for attacking the village: kill the bearer of the Crimson Mantle to prevent the Dark One from succeeding.

[Synesthesy]

D&D and OotS don't presume so, the self righteous paladins of Azure City do.

Well, if I cast Detect Evil and you are detected as evil, you ARE evil. So the paladins must be right saying that all goblins are evil, if Detect Evil says so.


However, in SoD,

the Dark One is not upset becouse of the land, of the right, of the aligment system: he's upset becouse goblin are intelligent being BUT they can't be PC. He said 'rules for Monster PCs suck' to the other gods, not 'our lands sucks' or 'we are good even if tagged as evil' (another think that can be true and it's a theme of the story).

He wants that Gobbotopia (and every goblins' land) become a real indipendent nation, instead to be a 'challenge for a heroes' quest to earn XP'. He wants that goblins become real race like human or elves, and not just some walking XP for some adventures.

[luc258]

My thought is that the snarl and the gates cannot be used in the way Redcloak assumes it can.

[Kish]

Well, if I cast Detect Evil and you are detected as evil, you ARE evil. So the paladins must be right saying that all goblins are evil, if Detect Evil says so.
You know, that's a funny thing. Rich has said that Redcloak's brother was True Neutral and that Redcloak's sister did not deserve to be stabbed (and that the entire question "did that five-year-old girl deserve to be killed" was a grotesque one).

Either Detect Evil would have gone, "Not Evil" on both of them, and the group of paladins that killed them weren't relying on it. Or...Detect Evil is not "Reliably Detect Valid Target." Or, you know, both. (Or Rich's genocidal creations are right and Rich is wrong about his own writing, of course.)

[Uniqueorn]

But aren't goblins "usually" neutral evil: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html

[Kish]

I'm uncertain of what you're getting at with the air-quotes on "usually."

[Yuki Akuma]

But aren't goblins "usually" neutral evil: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html

Yes. Which means about 50 or 60% of all Goblins are Neutral Evil.

The rest are one of the other eight alignments, two of which are also Evil, so the majority of Goblins are evil according to those demographics - but a huge population of them aren't.

[Synesthesy]

You know, that's a funny thing. Rich has said that Redcloak's brother was True Neutral and that Redcloak's sister did not deserve to be stabbed (and that the entire question "did that five-year-old girl deserve to be killed" was a grotesque one).

Either Detect Evil would have gone, "Not Evil" on both of them, and the group of paladins that killed them weren't relying on it. Or...Detect Evil is not "Reliably Detect Valid Target." Or, you know, both. (Or Rich's genocidal creations are right and Rich is wrong about his own writing, of course.)

So think about it: if Redcloak's sister did not deserve to be stabbed, why stabbing her did not count as an evil act to make the paladin who did it lose his paladinhood? Paladin usually should not be allowed to kill innocent people, should them?

[hamishspence]

There's a quote from The Giant saying that some of the paladins may in fact have Fallen:


Suffice to say that the Twelve Gods are not beholden to put on the same visual display they did for Miko for every paladin who transgresses, and that all transgressions are not created equal. It is possible that some of the paladins who participated in the attack crossed the line. It is also possible that most did not. A paladin who slips up in the execution of their god-given orders does not warrant the same level of personal attention by the gods as one who executes the legal ruler of their nation on a glorified hunch. Think of Miko's Fall as being the equivalent of the CEO of your multinational company showing up in your cubicle to fire you, because you screwed up THAT much.

Of course, while Redcloak is not narrating the scene, it is shown mostly from his perspective; we don't see how many Detect Evils were used before the attack started, and we don't see how many paladins afterwards try to heal their wounds and can't, because these things are not important to Redcloak's story. Whether or not some of the paladins Fell does not bring Redcloak's family back to life. Indeed, if we transplant the scene to real life, he would think it cold comfort that some of the police officers who gunned down his family had to turn in their badge afterward (but were otherwise given no punishment by their bosses at City Hall).

Dramatically, showing no-name paladins Falling at that point in the story would confuse the narrative by making it unclear whether or not Redcloak had already earned a form of retribution against them. To be clear, he had not: Whether or not some of them lost a few class abilities does not change the fact that Redcloak suffered an injustice at their hands, one that shaped his entire adult life. That was the point of the scene. Showing them Fall or not simply was not important to Redcloak's story, so it was omitted.

Further, it would have cheapened Miko's fall to show the same thing over and over--and Miko, as a major character in the series, deserved the emotional weight that her Fall carried (or at least that I hope it carried).

I hope that clears this issue up. I hope in vain, largely, but there you have it.

(Oh, and I leave it up to the readers to form their own opinions on which paladins may have Fallen and which didn't.)

[bguy]

However, in SoD,

the Dark One is not upset becouse of the land, of the right, of the aligment system: he's upset becouse goblin are intelligent being BUT they can't be PC. He said 'rules for Monster PCs suck' to the other gods, not 'our lands sucks' or 'we are good even if tagged as evil' (another think that can be true and it's a theme of the story).

Even that complaint seems dubious though. The Dark One was able to become a god (something that otherwise only certain elves have been able to do), so obviously he wasn't held back by the rules for Monster PCs. Likewise Redcloak is very possibly the highest level cleric on the entire planet. And we've seen goblinoid ninjas, wizards, and psionicists, so they seem to be able to access all the PC classes.

[Kish]

If you think the rules for monster PCs don't suck, you've never read them. The fact that two goblinoids managed to overcome their racial disadvantages doesn't mean those disadvantages don't exist any more than the occasionally successful half-orc means half-orcs aren't thoroughly screwed over. Malack's vampire powers were very useful, but they didn't make him as powerful as an epic-level living human cleric would have been, even with an extremely friendly DM who apparently responded to Malack wanting to research a Protection from Daylight spell with a Santa Claus grin and, "I see no reason for that to be a particularly high-level spell!"; Jirix's +2 Strength +2 Constitution -nothing is very nice, compared to Vaarsuvius' +2 Dexterity -2 Constitution or Belkar's +2 Dexterity -2 Strength, but it's not worth a whole level.

[Synesthesy]

There's a quote from The Giant saying that some of the paladins may in fact have Fallen:

Well, I actually think that this quote have changed the whole think.

But I don't understand. Well, I don't want to deny what the Giant say, but I think that there is something illogical.
As Belkar said about Miko, losing paladinhood is not a simple think. In his opinion it's worst then death itself (even if it is not so true). If killing innocent goblins lead paladin to lose their paladinhood, I don't think they would kill them so easily. It seems to me more logical that no paladin losed their paladinhood that day.
And I have an explanation: simply for their god and their moral, killing goblin is not an evil act. Not more evil then killing an angry wolf who is hunting me, for example.
This is the way I see it - no absolute good, but good from gods point of view - and this is the start of everything I wrote here.

Maybe I'm just all wrong. However, if there is some justice for paladin slaying innocent goblin children, I will really feel better when Reddy will (eventually) die :smallbiggrin:

[LadyEowyn]

Bguy -

It's repeatedly stated and shown in the strip that Evil-defined creatures being regarded as XP packets whom it's okay to kill simply because they're Evil-defined is a condition of the Stickverse, and that Rich considers it fundamentally unjust. It goes back to some of the first strips:

- On the Origin of PCs: The first party Roy is with want to kill some orcs for XP even though they aren't hurting anyone.

- Strip 13: Belkar: Well, I just figured we'd wander around, kill some sentient creatures because they had green skin and fangs and we don't, and then take their stuff.

- Strip 115: *Goblins surrender* Belkar: *stab* Run, my pretty little chunks of XP, run!! 'Surrender.' Ha! How do they come up with this stuff?

- Strip 421: Elan: No one ever won a war by dying for their country. They won by making the other guy die for his country. Which still applies even though hobgoblins don't live in countries. They live in caves, I think. So make them die for their caves. Which, admittedly, sounds a lot less heroic than dying for your country.

This, I think, is the first major line pointing out that something's fundamentally wrong with the situation goblins are in; the first two are Belkar, who's evil, though they do lampshade a typical D&D adventurer mentality. Elan's line has a real point behind it.

- Strip 628: Ancient Black Dragon: Simply because we have statistics for every age category, you think it is acceptable to kill our children.

In addition to that, we have numerous statements from Rich:

- Rich: The primary purpose of Redcloak's characterization is to specifically prove that this point is completely and utterly wrong. That D&D cannot and should not begin and end at black-and-white, and indeed already doesn't, if everyone would just learn to look at things a little more complexly.

- Rich: I CARE. I care, and every goddamn person in the world should care, because it's objectification of a sentient being. It doesn't matter that the sentient being in question is a fictional species, it's saying that it's OK for people who look funny to be labeled as Evil by default, because hey, like 60% of them do Evil things sometimes! That is racism. It is a short hop to real-world racism once we decide it is acceptable to make blanket negative statements about entire races of people.

Our fiction reflects who we are as a civilization, and it disgusts me that so many people think it's acceptable to label creatures with only cosmetic differences from us as inherently Evil. I may like the alignment system overall, but that is its ugliest implication, and one that I think needs to be eliminated from the game. I will ALWAYS write against that idea until it has been eradicated from the lexicon of fantasy literature. If they called me up and asked me to help them work on 5th Edition, I would stamp it out from the very game itself. It is abhorrent to me in every way.
___

So, in short, you can't reasonably make an argument about an injustice whose existence is a [I]fundamental and foundational part of the comic and has been recognized as such by the author by simply denying that that injustice exists. That goblins are mistreated simply because of who they are, and that that situation is built into the framework of the world by the gods, is our starting point here. Redcloak's fight is to end that.


Well keep in mind that the Dark One's conception of diplomacy is

to form the largest army in all of history, march it up to the border of the other nations and then say, "how 'bout you give us some of your land."

As an alternative to what - walking up to a human nation unarmed and say the same thing? Additionally, now that the goblins do have a country it's notable that they are not being aggressive or seeking to gain additional territory. His actions don't support the idea that the Dark One is out to conquer the world.


Except Gobbotopia is a slave state. Bringing more slavery into the world certainly makes it a worse place.
Yes, it is. But so are many of the human nations and empires (Empire of Blood included). That's evil, but it's not a distinction between a goblin nation and any other nation.

[Starwaster]

Let's assume for a second that Redcloak pulls it off. He tricks Xykon, he transfers control of the gate to the Dark One, and brings about a new era of goblinoid power. Is that so bad? He doesn't plan to unleash the snarl. He just wants equality. The world already has the empires of blood, sweat, and tears, who are clearly evil. Why not have a relatively peaceful "evil" nation of goblinoids? The Azurites already have a new fortress to live in. And if goblins have a homeland that can support them, they can stop being so aggressive and militaristic as a means of survival, and slowly acclimate to civilized life. Less goblins get killed, less humans get killed and nobody gets unmade by a godkilling abomination.

Thoughts?

What snarl? I dont think it exists. Or if it does, we really dont know anything about it save for what we've been told, and that's not matching up with what we've seen in the rifts.

Someone has lied to us and the party...

[Kish]

What snarl? I dont think it exists.
*watches the Snarl suddenly pounce on Starwaster*

[bguy]

Bguy -

It's repeatedly stated and shown in the strip that Evil-defined creatures being regarded as XP packets whom it's okay to kill simply because they're Evil-defined is a condition of the Stickverse, and that Rich considers it fundamentally unjust. It goes back to some of the first strips:

Alright look at it this way, when in the comics has a non-evil person been shown killing goblins or other monster races for XP?


- On the Origin of PCs: The first party Roy is with want to kill some orcs for XP even though they aren't hurting anyone.

Remember though that group thought the Orcs had raided a human village. And when they learned that the Orcs had not actually raided the village, they did ultimately (if ungraciously) accept a peaceful resolution. And frankly that group was one of the worst characterizations that the Giant has done in the entire run of OOTS (how exactly does a paladin plot to have a fellow party member get killed and not immediately fall for it?)


- - Strip 13: Belkar: Well, I just figured we'd wander around, kill some sentient creatures because they had green skin and fangs and we don't, and then take their stuff.

That's Belkar. He is just as willing to harvest humans for XP as he is goblins. See Strip 124.


- - Strip 421: Elan: No one ever won a war by dying for their country. They won by making the other guy die for his country. Which still applies even though hobgoblins don't live in countries. They live in caves, I think. So make them die for their caves. Which, admittedly, sounds a lot less heroic than dying for your country.

That's Elan. He's not exactly the most learned person in the Stickverse. Do you really think he knows much about hobgoblins?

But while we're on the subject of Elan, remember he participated in a diplomatic mission with Sir Francois to the troglodytes and on behalf of Hinjo to the orcs, so his experiences demonstrates pretty clearly that the PC races are perfectly willing to engage in trade and diplomacy with the other races and don't just treat them as XP fodder.


- Strip 628: Ancient Black Dragon: Simply because we have statistics for every age category, you think it is acceptable to kill our children.

Given that her child attacked the Order first and while they were retreating, the ABD doesn't really have any grounds for moral self-righteousness here. And V's subsequent action in the familicide has been portrayed in-comic as big time EVIL. (Remember the IFCC thinks they have a good chance of getting V's soul purely based on that act. That shows pretty clearly that the powers that be in the Stickverse consider the mass murder of black dragons to be an evil action.)


- In addition to that, we have numerous statements from Rich:

- Rich: I CARE. I care, and every goddamn person in the world should care, because it's objectification of a sentient being. It doesn't matter that the sentient being in question is a fictional species, it's saying that it's OK for people who look funny to be labeled as Evil by default, because hey, like 60% of them do Evil things sometimes! That is racism. It is a short hop to real-world racism once we decide it is acceptable to make blanket negative statements about entire races of people.

I agree with the sentiment, but I don't really see how the comic supports that point. By and large we haven't seen characters in OOTS massacring goblins because of their race. Rather the goblins are being killed because they are fighting for a lich who is trying to take over the world, or because they are invading a city with the intent to enslave all its inhabitants, or because they are torturing old men. The goblins aren't being judged because of their race. They are being judged because of their actions.


- So, in short, you can't reasonably make an argument about an injustice whose existence is a [I]fundamental and foundational part of the comic and has been recognized as such by the author by simply denying that that injustice exists. That goblins are mistreated simply because of who they are, and that that situation is built into the framework of the world by the gods, is our starting point here. Redcloak's fight is to end that.

I can when there is no credible evidence in the comic that the goblins are being systematically discriminated against because of their race. All we have is the Dark One's word that that is what was happening, and his word is inconsistent with what we actually see in the comics.


- As an alternative to what - walking up to a human nation unarmed and say the same thing? Additionally, now that the goblins do have a country it's notable that they are not being aggressive or seeking to gain additional territory. His actions don't support the idea that the Dark One is out to conquer the world.

Negotiation at spearpoint is not diplomacy, it's robbery. And Gobbotopia has no reason to try and expand militarily, since it has every reason to believe that Redcloak is going to win the world for them anyway. (Its also questionable whether they could conquer any of their neighbors without Redcloak and Xykon's assistance.)


- Yes, it is. But so are many of the human nations and empires (Empire of Blood included). That's evil, but it's not a distinction between a goblin nation and any other nation.

Agreed, but the point is not whether Gobbotopia is worse than other evil nations. What you said was that creating Gobbotopia did not make the world a worse place. I'm arguing that it's creation did make the world a worse place because it increased the total amount of slavery in the world.

Also while we're on the subject of the Empire of Blood, you'll notice that lizardfolk live as equals with humans there, and that seems to be true throughout the western continent. That's further evidence that "monster" races really aren't divinely discriminated against in the Stickverse.

[Turtlesbanes]

Given that her child attacked the Order first and while they were retreating,


We never see the dragon attack first, we cut straight from the Order barging into his home, to mid battle. And even if the dragon attacked first it would be completely understandable, these people are barging into his home, fully armed, and we find out here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html that his father was killed by a similar group of adventurers. What would you do if your dad was killed by adventurers, and then a few years later you see some armed adventurers sneaking through your house?

[Synesthesy]

By and large we haven't seen characters in OOTS massacring goblins because of their race.


We can see the paladin in SoD. Miko admitted to have killed many creatures just becose she magical saw their evilness. V said that there was a lot of XP left in Dorukan's dungeon, (s)he may think about all the surviving goblins like Belkar. An elf killed a prisoner goblin just becouse 'the only good goblin is a dead one'.

At least.

[bguy]

We never see the dragon attack first, we cut straight from the Order barging into his home, to mid battle. And even if the dragon attacked first it would be completely understandable, these people are barging into his home, fully armed, and we find out here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html that his father was killed by a similar group of adventurers. What would you do if your dad was killed by adventurers, and then a few years later you see some armed adventurers sneaking through your house?

Except in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html we see the Order retreating as soon as they see the dragon, so clearly they did not want to fight it. And in the next strip, the dragon has pinned Elan and is breathing at the rest of the party, and neither Roy or Durkon have even drawn their weapons. (Which makes it pretty obvious the dragon initiated hostilities, since I don't think Roy would try to fight a dragon bare handed.)


We can see the paladin in SoD. Miko admitted to have killed many creatures just becose she magical saw their evilness. V said that there was a lot of XP left in Dorukan's dungeon, (s)he may think about all the surviving goblins like Belkar. An elf killed a prisoner goblin just becouse 'the only good goblin is a dead one'.

The paladins in SoD were carrying out a legitimate mission against a true threat (the Crimson Mantle is essentially a magical WMD), and the ones that exceeded the parameters of that mission were punished by the gods for it (which makes it pretty clear that no the gods are not ok with slaughtering goblins for fun.)

I don't remember Miko stating that she actually attacked based on nothing more than a Protection from Evil reading, which strip was that in?

V was also hoping to kill Belkar for XPs http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html, so hir attitude about the goblins in Redmountain isn't indicative of racism but simply that V is willing to kill anyone that is opposed to hir.

I'll give you the elf who was a bona fide bigot, but remember he also pointedly acknowledged that he was not a good person. And that same strip made it clear that Thanh would not approve of the elf's action, which given that Thanh is a paladin who follows divine law, is further evidence that the gods are not ok with killing goblins just because they're goblins.

[Kish]

Do the words, "The Twelve Gods may have sanctioned the paladins' massacres, but even they can't keep karma from kicking them in their divine asses once in a while" mean anything to you?

[Porthos]

If killing innocent goblins lead paladin to lose their paladinhood, I don't think they would kill them so easily. It seems to me more logical that no paladin losed their paladinhood that day.

This is not a very logical statement at all. Paladins are not infallible. They are just as susceptible to errors in judgement and succumbing to zealotry as anyone else.

We even have an example right in the strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) :smallwink:

So let's say that a paladin started to slip more and more. They cut more and more corners. But never actually yet crossed the line. But then they get in charge of a squadron that is going after a village that, as far as they know, contains an cult (not artifact, cult [they don't know the actual significance of the Crimson Mantle]) that threatens reality itself.

This paladin loses it. Just like a certain other paladin.

This paladin orders a massacre. They slaughter everyone in sight, not bothering to Detect Evil. Hell, by their own oaths (and their own imperfect understanding of what is going on), there can be no survivors.

Then, a couple of days later when some of them actually try to use their paladin powers, they're surprised to find a [SIGNAL LOST] message.

How is any of this illogical? It's the very reason paladins can Fall in the first place. If they were incapable of committing an evil act, the rules would say so. But since the very opposite is not only stated, but spelled out in the rules what happens when they do, I don't think your statement really holds water. :smallsmile:

[bguy]

Do the words, "The Twelve Gods may have sanctioned the paladins' massacres, but even they can't keep karma from kicking them in their divine asses once in a while" mean anything to you?

Not really because that's not what happened in the comic. The Twelve Gods didn't suffer because of what happened at Redcloak's village. They're still large and in charge. Likewise the members of the Sapphire Guard that committed atrocities in that attack aren't the ones that suffered when Redcloak attacked Azure City. (Just look at the picture of the paladins in strip 447, they all look way to young to have been around for the attack on Redcloak's village.) The people that were killed in Azure City were as far as we know innocent. They didn't murder Redcloak's mom or his sister. The vast majority of them had never even heard of the Gates, the Crimson Mantle, or the Sapphire Guard. Innocent people being killed or enslaved for the crimes of others is not karma.

[rs2excelsior]

- Strip 13: Belkar: Well, I just figured we'd wander around, kill some sentient creatures because they had green skin and fangs and we don't, and then take their stuff.

- Strip 115: *Goblins surrender* Belkar: *stab* Run, my pretty little chunks of XP, run!! 'Surrender.' Ha! How do they come up with this stuff?

- Strip 421: Elan: No one ever won a war by dying for their country. They won by making the other guy die for his country. Which still applies even though hobgoblins don't live in countries. They live in caves, I think. So make them die for their caves. Which, admittedly, sounds a lot less heroic than dying for your country.

The first two are Belkar. Do you really expect anything different? And on the case of the first one, the rest of the party has a negative reaction to Belkar's statement. And the third one is Elan. He's a moron. A lovable moron, but a moron nonetheless. And the hobgoblins didn't live in caves, they lived in a walled city that looked just as well-established and perhaps as advanced as Azure City.

Redcloak could have set up Gobbotopia right there. Gobbotopia WAS right there. He didn't need the Dark One holding the snarl over the heads of the rest of the world like a giant Sword of Damocles. One doesn't seek out a weapon of mass destruction when one has what one wants.

Of course, Xykon doesn't know about the Plan, and Redcloak couldn't exactly just say "yeah, I've got what I want now, so we're done here." Though he showed no reluctance whatsoever to invade Azure City.

[killallgoblins]

Of course he wouldn't. Goblins, at their core, are just murderous animals. Redcloak's ideal of equality has never been anything more than a pretty sounding lie.

[Gift Jeraff]

If the goblins win we'll have to listen to oboes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html)
Heck no, heck no, I'll never listen to oboes!

[Demolator]

Of course he wouldn't. Goblins, at their core, are just murderous animals.

Is this idea not one of the things The Giant has been trying to disprove with the comic on a broader level?

Edit: Oh, wait, I didn't read the username carefully enough. :smalltongue:

[Aquillion]

The arguments I've seen so far far are as fallows.
1: Redcloak/The Dark One is not out for justice, he's out for revenge.
It doesn't matter what Redcloak is after because he's giving control of the gate to The Dark One. The Dark One has proven to be level headed and reasonable about this in SOD when, instead of invading human territory with a massive army, he choose to try and settle things diplomatically.That was then, though. He's been through a lot since then, and it's entirely possible that he's now embittered and wants to make humans pay for what they did.


Is this idea not one of the things The Giant has been trying to disprove with the comic on a broader level?

Edit: Oh, wait, I didn't read the username carefully enough. :smalltongue:Killallgoblins should end every post with a demand that all goblins be killed, even on an unrelated subject, like Cato the Elder's Carthago delenda est.

"This is the best update to Space Webcomic ever! Furthermore, all goblins must be destroyed."

[rs2excelsior]

Killallgoblins should end every post with a demand that all goblins be killed, even on an unrelated subject, like Cato the Elder's Carthago delenda est.

"This is the best update to Space Webcomic ever! Furthermore, all goblins must be destroyed."

I second this. :smallbiggrin:

[M84]

Too bad it's possible the Dark One's plan is unfeasible, since it depends on a weapon that might not even exist anymore, if it ever really did.

That isn't to say the goblins can't find a way to make a better life for themselves without the Dark One or Redcloak. Right-Eye had a good thing going for a while before Xykon's return mucked it all up.

[Nameless Hero]

Just my two cents...

In the world of role playing games, Goblins are always low-level cannon fodder. Very often, their only purpose in a story is to get brutally slaughtered. Gnomes on the other hand should in theory deserve the same treatment since they are roughly the same size, same strengths, abilities but Gnomes are PLAYABLE CHARACTERS and are allowed to have heroic quests and their own society while goblins are NPC and are expected to die.

Therefore my theory is that Red Cloak is on a quest to challenge the Creator and change the status of Goblins so they finally become Equal with the other races.

Its just a theory but IMO it would make a great story line.
Rebel against the Gods stories always feature epic battles.:smallbiggrin:

[JennTora]

Except in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html we see the Order retreating as soon as they see the dragon, so clearly they did not want to fight it. And in the next strip, the dragon has pinned Elan and is breathing at the rest of the party, and neither Roy or Durkon have even drawn their weapons. (Which makes it pretty obvious the dragon initiated hostilities, since I don't think Roy would try to fight a dragon bare handed.)


You uh... totally ignored the part where they barged into his home in weapons and armor. For all he knew they were plotting a sneak attack. It ultimately still boils down to self defense.

[Elfey]

Note that Recloak has already conquered a homeland for the Goblins.

SoD spoilers:
Destroying in the process the nation and the paladin order who slaughtered his family and village

So Redcloak has already won, in a sense.

Yeah, but the God's are still ***** who created the Goblins to be fodder, and made it 'right' to kill them.

I do like the comments the giant made that some of those who attacked Redcloak's village fell, but it feels harsh without seeing it. Arbitrary lines defining who is good and who is evil is a pretty dickish thing that makes me support overthrowing the current pantheon.

[pwning doodes]

Assuming the Plan succeeds and The Dark One stops at equality as advertised, I approve of goblins getting the same treatment as the player races. Of course, there are a lot of "ifs" there. IF the Snarl doesn't kill everyone. IF The Dark One doesn't demand that the goblins rule the world. IF there actually is a Snarl in the first place. When it's all over, I don't expect the Plan to work. However, as previously mentioned upthread, the ultimate goal has already been achieved to some extent with the founding of Gobbotopia. They even seem to have peaceful trading relationships with Cliffport.

[Dark Matter]

The purpose of the Plan - at least as Redcloak understands it - is not to gain additional territory, but to change the rules of the world so that goblins are not defined as XP fodder.True.


Which would, in my view, be a good and just thing.It depends. Do we accomplish this by reforming goblins? By making them an "alignment undefined" species like humans? By establish goblin paladin orders?

Yeah, all that would be a good (and Good) thing.

But I seriously doubt that's what The Plan is.

The Plan, I *think*, is to let goblins be as Evil as they want, but with Good PCs unable to step in. The slaves get properly whipped. The blood of the innocent gets correctly drunk. The souls of the Good get sacrificed or corrupted.

And all of that will happen with No Chance of Good ever gaining a foothold.

Red Cloak is fighting for "Evil Wins", not "Goblins are reformed".

[Forikroder]

True.

It depends. Do we accomplish this by reforming goblins? By making them an "alignment undefined" species like humans? By establish goblin paladin orders?

Yeah, all that would be a good (and Good) thing.

But I seriously doubt that's what The Plan is.

The Plan, I *think*, is to let goblins be as Evil as they want, but with Good PCs unable to step in. The slaves get properly whipped. The blood of the innocent gets correctly drunk. The souls of the Good get sacrificed or corrupted.

And all of that will happen with No Chance of Good ever gaining a foothold.

Red Cloak is fighting for "Evil Wins", not "Goblins are reformed".

not exactly redcloak is fighting so that Goblins dont need an epic level lich to take down azure city because theyd have fighters that can go toe to toe with the Paladins, its not "make good PCs unable to step in" its "make goblin PCs able to hold there ground"

for now at least

[Porthos]

Arbitrary lines defining who is good and who is evil is a pretty dickish thing that makes me support overthrowing the current pantheon.

Redcloak hasn't exactly covered himself with honor and glory in his following of 'The Plan', you know.

And even if one followed the credo that one has to ruthless slaughter some chickens to make an omelette, he could stop right now and call it a day by building up Gobbotopia.

Xykon may be tough, but I don't think he could withstand the combined might of a well planned attack by Redcloak and a high enough band of his elite followers.

But, somehow, I tend to think that even if Xykon was out of the picture Redcloak wouldn't... No, couldn't stop. He's sunk far too much in to this Plan business and he's not going to stop until:

A) He seizes a control of a Gate.
B) There are no more Gates left.
C) He dies.
D) Has some sort of epiphany that he really doesn't need to keep going down the road he currently is.

Sadly, it looks like Redcloak is headed down the road of the tragic figure. Which is a shame because I've been rooting for him to turn away from his path.

Ah, well. He's got two more books into which he can start to see where his actions are inevitably going to lead.

[Forikroder]

he could stop right now and call it a day by building up Gobbotopia.

Gobbtopia stands only as long as Xykon "protects" it (as in noone wants to cross paths with him.... or cross a specified area in which they think he might eventaully cross at some undetermined point in time)

as soon as the Lich is out of the way the OoTS and Azurites could gather an army and recover it in a week

[Demolator]

Redcloak and his goblin/zombie army actually did a pretty good job taking the city, actually. Xykon was a big part of it, getting rid of around 99% of the paladins there, but now that they're gone, I don't think they have to worry about much if the azurite's come back. If XYKON comes back, though...

[Porthos]

as soon as the Lich is out of the way the OoTS and Azurites could gather an army and recover it in a week

Maybe. Maybe not. Gobbotopia has been building up for almost a year now. They're getting trade alliances and hunkering down.

Furthermore, you have to consider the 'opportunity cost' of war. It'd cost a lot of lives if Hinjo and company decided to try to take back Azure City. Especially if a large enough faction of the ruling class takes a look at their current surroundings and says, "What's so wrong with settling down here?"

Each and every day that passes is another day that the status quo gets stronger.

Personally when this story is over, I won't be surprised if Gobbotopia stands, as is, and we have Neo Azure City (or some similar name) be built up with the Azure City fleet is now stationed. A lot of people 'in world' would be unhappy to a degree with such a resolution. But, then again, I suspect it's going to be flat out impossible to come up with a resolution where most everyone is completely happy with the way things turn out.

[137beth]

True.

It depends. Do we accomplish this by reforming goblins? By making them an "alignment undefined" species like humans? By establish goblin paladin orders?

Yeah, all that would be a good (and Good) thing.

But I seriously doubt that's what The Plan is.

The Plan, I *think*, is to let goblins be as Evil as they want, but with Good PCs unable to step in. The slaves get properly whipped. The blood of the innocent gets correctly drunk. The souls of the Good get sacrificed or corrupted.

And all of that will happen with No Chance of Good ever gaining a foothold.

Red Cloak is fighting for "Evil Wins", not "Goblins are reformed".

I'm pretty sure Redcloak is fighting for the goblin people, not "Evil".

[Forikroder]

Maybe. Maybe not. Gobbotopia has been building up for almost a year now. They're getting trade alliances and hunkering down.

Furthermore, you have to consider the 'opportunity cost' of war. It'd cost a lot of lives if Hinjo and company decided to try to take back Azure City. Especially if a large enough faction of the ruling class takes a look at their current surroundings and says, "What's so wrong with settling down here?"

Each and every day that passes is another day that the status quo gets stronger.

Personally when this story is over, I won't be surprised if Gobbotopia stands, as is, and we have Neo Azure City (or some similar name) be built up with the Azure City fleet is now stationed. A lot of people 'in world' would be unhappy to a degree with such a resolution. But, then again, I suspect it's going to be flat out impossible to come up with a resolution where most everyone is completely happy with the way things turn out.

you forget about all of Azure citys allies they visited, all of them have an army theyd be willing to lend, the elves will lend an army

without high level defenders Azure city will be powerless, the OoTS leading the charge will break there defenders far more effectively then Redcloak and his summoned elementals/undead ever could

Gobbtopia CANNOT stand unless either Xykon has a change of heart and spends eternity protecting it or Redcloaks plan succeeds and the Goblin become able to raise there own powerful soldiers to fight

[Porthos]

you forget about all of Azure citys allies they visited, all of them have an army theyd be willing to lend,

You mean all of the allies that said "Get lost"? Those allies? Yeah, I wouldn't count on them showing up. They'll just find another excuse.


without high level defenders Azure city will be powerless,

What makes you think there are no high level defenders in Gobbotopia? :smallconfused:


Gobbotopia CANNOT stand unless either Xykon has a change of heart and spends eternity protecting it or Redcloaks plan succeeds and the Goblin become able to raise there own powerful soldiers to fight

Whatever happened to "Rich can write whatever story he wants no matter what the rules say" stance that you've held elsewhere? :smalltongue:

All I am saying is that Gobbotopia is going to be a tough nut to crack. And one that is tough enough that enough of the Azurites might look at their new home and decide to settle. In more than one definition of the term.

Sure there will be plenty of Azurites agitating to right the wrong that was visited upon them. Then again, that's how this whole current mess started, now isn't it? Someone deciding to 'right the wrong that was done to them'. Where does it stop? Sooner or later the Azurites and the Goblinkin are going to have to learn to live with each other. Or at least not visit never-ending death upon one another.

And having a huge ocean between them might be one of the better ways to enact a 'good fences make good neighbors' policy. After all, an ocean is a hell of a fence. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

I'm pretty sure Redcloak is fighting for the goblin people, not "Evil".
Thank you. I was wondering who these characters named Evil and Good whom I didn't remember seeing were.

[Forikroder]

What makes you think there are no high level defenders in Gobbotopia?

because the Gods literally made them that way


Whatever happened to "Rich can write whatever story he wants no matter what the rules say" stance that you've held elsewhere?

i dont see how that has anything to do with the current conversation i was only bringing it up because math constantly stated it was literally impossible (not figuratively impossible) for redcloak to control Xykon

yes its technically possible Gobbtopia will stand (peronally i have no opinoion either way) but thats purely through as perspective as a reader, through the perspective of an inhabitant of the OoTS verse it becomes obvious that Azure city will fall, im fairly certain the elves and remaining Azurited would be enough with the OoTS as back up


All I am saying is that Gobbotopia is going to be a tough nut to crack. And one that is tough enough that enough of the Azurites might look at their new home and decide to settle. In more than one definition of the term.

sure lets count on Paladins giving up on fighting evil... that seems like a very safe bet


Sure there will be plenty of Azurites agitating to right the wrong that was visited upon them. Then again, that's how this whole current mess started, now isn't it? Someone deciding to 'right the wrong that was done to them'. Where does it stop? Sooner or later the Azurites and the Goblinkin are going to have to learn to live with each other. Or at least not visit never-ending death upon one another.

try explaining that to the Azurites and hear the WOOOOOSH as it goes over there heads

[Porthos]

I'm pretty sure Redcloak is fighting for the goblin people, not "Evil".

Welllllll.

I would put it that he thinks he is fighting for the goblin people.

Which, isn't quite the same thing.

How much he is actually fighting for the goblin people, and how much he is fighting for his own personal grudges is a bit more debatable. And has been for quite some time. :smallwink:

====

Edited in to not double post:


because the Gods literally made them that way

Many goblins and hobgoblins have had class levels. There is no reason to think that Gobbotopia doesn't have access to them. We've seen them throughout the strip.


yes its technically possible Gobbtopia will stand (peronally i have no opinion either way)

I was simply pointing out that you said that Gobbotopia "CANNOT stand should Xykon leave the scene". I wanted to remind that they could.

But now that you've acknowledged that it's possible I have no further objection. :smallsmile:


but thats purely through as perspective as a reader, through the perspective of an inhabitant of the OoTS verse it becomes obvious that Azure city will fall, im fairly certain the elves and remaining Azurited would be enough with the OoTS as back up

Well, from the perspective of THIS reader, the signs are pointing to Gobbotopia standing.

Why else give the new people of Azure City a place to live?

As for perspective of people 'in universe', I make no bets one way or the other. Though the fact that lots of nations are recognizing and trading with Gobbotopia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) leads me to think that at least some of them are hedging their bets.

After all, why antagonize the Azurites if Gobbotopia is doomed? You'd think they wouldn't help strengthen them in the slightest if their fall is inevitable.


sure lets count on Paladins giving up on fighting evil... that seems like a very safe bet

Hmm. Let's think about this for a second. Goblins aren't de facto evil in OotSWorld. This is simply a fact. Moreover the paladins of Azure City mostly went nuts because of the Crimson Mantle.

If the Crimson Mantle is no more, and/or it isn't useful anymore in the future (for reasons too numerous to list), then a large reason for the paladins going after the goblins ceases to be.

Then it just becomes a cycle of revenge. Which.... isn't quite as noble as stopping a threat to all existence. :smallsmile:


try explaining that to the Azurites and hear the WOOOOOSH as it goes over there heads

You mean the Azurites that are sick and tired of war and just want to live their lives in peace? There might be more than you suspect. :smallwink:

[Dark Matter]

I'm pretty sure Redcloak is fighting for the goblin people, not "Evil".Right-eye fought for the goblin people, successfully too.

Redcloak is fighting for their right to whip slaves (etc).

[LadyEowyn]

All I am saying is that Gobbotopia is going to be a tough nut to crack. And one that is tough enough that enough of the Azurites might look at their new home and decide to settle. In more than one definition of the term.

Sure there will be plenty of Azurites agitating to right the wrong that was visited upon them. Then again, that's how this whole current mess started, now isn't it? Someone deciding to 'right the wrong that was done to them'. Where does it stop? Sooner or later the Azurites and the Goblinkin are going to have to learn to live with each other. Or at least not visit never-ending death upon one another.

And having a huge ocean between them might be one of the better ways to enact a 'good fences make good neighbors' policy. After all, an ocean is a hell of a fence. :smalltongue:

That would be my prediction as well. The Azurites have a new home. The Goblins have (for the first time in their history) a state, with diplomatic recognition and trading relations no less. I expect Gobbotopia to survive to the end of the story and after - or, if it is destroyed, to be destroyed in some way that's connected to Redcloak's actions, and not by the Azure City folks. But I'm hoping really hard against the latter.

Regarding the Plan, when Redcloak describes it to Tsukiko (at which point he is telling the truth, at least as he perceives it) he says that the purpose of the Plan is to allow the Dark One to "blackmail* the other gods into a series of concessions that will improve the lives of the goblin race"). He doesn't say that the goal is to make goblins rulers of the world, and he has no reason not to put things in those terms if that's his actual goal, since he plans to kill Tsukiko directly after explaining this.

And in addition to the Plan not being all that bad a thing for the world if it did go through, it many not be a threat for the larger reason that the Snarl doesn't appear to exist any more, in which case the Dark One would have no weapon with which to threaten anybody.

* The correct word is "extort". Blackmail is a threat to reveal harmful information, not a threat of violence.