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View Full Version : Dragonfury Disciple: DFA, 1/2 Dragon, Dragonborn, Raptoran - all in one (PEACH)



nonsi
2013-08-24, 04:40 PM
The DFA (Dragonfire Adept (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook) – DrMg; p.25) and the DS (Dragon Shaman – PHB-II, p.11) are both intended to embody draconic aspects. To my personal taste, the DS has way too many features that have nothing to do with the draconic theme (AFAIK, auras in other sources - other than Frightful Presence - came later, so I don't regard them as noteworthy references/justifications for these controversial features), and is quite poorly designed mechanically (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7964258&postcount=8) and can't keep up the pace (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7967158&postcount=13).
The DFA, OTOH, is quite appropriate thematically and is practically the only official base class whose general makeup I found quite appealing. However, it's just far too puny physically to relay the "dragon might" feel, and a bit lacking to come anywhere near a true dragon’s versatility (focused too much on just blasting).

Sure, the official class is more than decent, versatile and interesting compared to the other official non-caster base classes, and the majority of features are more or less where they're supposed to be, but I feel it needs a bit more.

I've been trying to nail down a decent draconic class ever since the days of 2e. I played around with dozens of base classes and PrCs (core and non-core), and there was always something that just didn't feel right.
This revision is a sort of cocktail between DFA, DS and Dragonborn of Bahamut. It combines all the features I found to be genuinely draconic into one class. It basically provides all 3 draconic aspects of Dragonborn of Bahamut into a single base class (given this is doable with no LA by taking a Raptoran Dragonborn of Bahamut that goes DFA, and given I find the Dragonborn of Bahamut – as presented – to be pretty farfetched, I see no reason making a player go through hulahoops to get there).

The following details don’t have a dramatic affect on the DFA's power level (other than making it a lot more robust), but I find them to make it a much more "round" and complete class.

And - as usual - I'm aiming for a solid T3.




Dragonfury Disciple:

To become a member of the DFD (Dragonfury Disciple) class, one must start with the Dragontouched feat.
The process of gaining 1st DFD level includes a special Rite of Rebirth that causes the character to further drift toward his draconic bloodline. The character’s hands become claws (ineffective as weapons at this stage), his facial features elongate, his skin becomes scaly and he starts sprouting a pair of small wings and a short tail. With each level these features become more and more evident, as the DFD rises in power and with time he learns to use them all effectively.




Class Features:

Hit Dice: d10
{table=head]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Breath Effects|Scales |Draconic Invocations

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Dragonborn, Breath Weapon| | |
1 (Least)

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Dragonkin, Dragonscale Husk|
1|
+2 AC|
1

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Draconic Evolution * (Jump +10, gliding)| | |
2

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Draconic Resolve| |
DR* 1/–|
2

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4| |
2| |
2

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|Draconic Evolution * (Darkvision 60, Lowlight Vision x4, Flight)| |
+3 AC|
3 (Lesser)

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Draconic Might (claws, bite, +2 STR, +2 CHA)| | |
3

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+6| |
3|
DR 2/–|
4

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+6|Draconic Evolution * (Darkvision 90, Blindsense 30ft)| | |
4

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+7|Breath weapon range doubles (x2)| |
+4 AC|
4

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+7| |
4| |
5 (Greater)

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|Draconic Evolution * (Darkvision 120ft, Effortless Flight)| |
DR 3/–|
5

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|Greater Draconic Might (tail, full BAB, +2 STR, +2 INT)| | |
6

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+4|
+9| |
5|
+5 AC|
6

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+9|Draconic Evolution * (Blindsense 60ft, Frightful Presence 3/day: 30ft)| | |
6

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Dragon Transformation| |
DR 4/–|
7 (Dark)

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10| |
6| |
7

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Draconic Evolution * (Frightful Presence: 60ft - always active)| |
+6 AC|
8

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Superior Draconic Might (hover, +4 STR, +2 CON, +2 CHA)| | |
8

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Breath weapon range doubles (x4)|
7|
DR 5/–|
8

[/table]


Class Skills: Dragons don't ride other creatures, they don't tinker and they're not exactly nimble-fingered (claws). Other than that, they're extremely skillful. Therefore all skills are class skills for the DFD, except Disable Device, Forgery, Handle Animal, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble and Use Rope.

Skill Points: 4 + Int-mod per level.

Weapons & Armor: Dragonfire adepts are proficient with simple weapons, but not with armor or shields. Like arcane spellcasters, a dragonfire adept wearing armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure (all invocations have somatic components).


Dragonborn (Ex)
The following stats supersede and overlap with the modifiers gained by the Dragontouched feat:
• Humanoid (dragonblood): DFDs are humanoids with the dragon subtype and any other subtypes they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth.
• Darkvision 30ft
• Low-light vision
• +1 nat. armor to AC
• +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks
• +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 DEX

Breath Weapon (Su)
All DFDs gain their heritage appropriate breath weapon. This works similar to the one given for the official DFA, but there are several differences:
Damage progression is a steady accumulation of 1d8 at each odd level (10d8 at 19th).
Breath Weapon’s Damage Type: DFDs evolves from their original draconic heritage. A DFD’s initial breath damage type corresponds to his heritage.
Also, a DFD – just like a true dragon – must wait 1d4 rounds before re-using its breath weapon.
There are several reasons behind this rule:
- The ability to use breath weapon each round shoehorns a character into boring combat routines.
- This will resolve the dilemma behind meta-breath feats.
- The DFD doesn’t really need breath-weapon availability each round.

Invocations (Sp)
Basically, a DFD has access to any official invocation other than blast shape and essence invocations (or totally inappropriate invocations, such as Crawling Eye and Mask of Flesh).
Also, add the following to the list of allowed invocations, for DFDs who wish to be more martially inclined:
-Ghostly Hide [Lesser, 4th]: Your natural armor gain the Ghost Touch property.
-Ghostly Touch [Lesser, 4th]: Your natural attacks gain the Ghost Touch property.

Dragonkin (Ex)
A 2nd level DFD gains a +4 competence bonus on Diplomacy checks made to influence the attitude of dragons or creatures of the dragonblood subtype.

Scales (Ex)
starting at 2nd level, DFDs gain the indicated AC adjustment (as natural armor) and DR. notice that +2 is an improvement to the +1 AC adjustment granted by Dragonborn.
Also, a DFD gains energy resistance equal to 5 times his class-derived DR. This energy resistance is applied to any breath weapon damage type in the DFD's repertoire. And as given for the DFA, a DFD is never harmed by his own breath weapon.

Dragonscale Husk (Ex)
A 2nd level DFD gains the benefits described for the Dragon Magic feat of the same name (p. 12), with the following exceptions:
- It has nothing to do with armor feats.
- The AC improvement is keyed to the DFD’s class level.
- The husk is flexible enough not to incur ASF when using DFD invocations.
- The indicated AC of the Husk overlaps with the class’ regular scaly AC (i.e. they don’t stack).

Breath Effects (Su)
This power basically functions as given in Dragon Magic, except for the given below:
- Given a DFD can start with a black dragon's (or any other dragon sub-race) heritage, all “elemental” breath damage types are available as soon as 2nd DFD level (and I'm quite ok with this). The fact that there are more monsters that are resistant to certain damage types than to others is arbitrary and at the DM's whim. In a given campaign there may be a lot of monsters who are nigh immune to electrical effects and only a handful of monsters with negligible fire resistance, so I don't consider lightning to be inherently superior to fire.
- Discorporating Breath of Bahamut and Fivefold Breath of Tiamat are banned. Reason: if you have to be brain dead not to take it, then it probably should be a class feature or is simply too much. Draconic Might (see below) covers the angle of boosted breath damage.
- Breath Effects that in the book are limited to levels 10 & 15 are limited to levels 8 & 14 respectively, except Enduring Breath that's restricted to 11th level.
- A DFD's skin & scales change colors to reflect all the different breath weapon damage types he can generate.

Draconic Evolution (Ex)
These features describe the sensory and flight capabilities of the DFD as it rises in power:
Jump: A DFD’s proto-wings grant it a +10 racial bonus to all Jump checks. When flight is gained, the wings become too large to grant this bonus in confined spaces.
Gliding: A DFD can use his wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height and allowing 20ft of forward travel for every 5ft of descent. DFD glide at a speed of 30ft with average maneuverability. Even if a DFD’s maneuverability improves, he can’t hover while gliding. A DFD can’t glide while carrying medium or heavy load. If a DFD becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, his wings naturally unfurl, and powerful ligaments stiffen them. The DFD descends slowly in a tight corkscrew and takes only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter the actual distance of the fall.
Flight: When a DFD reaches 6th level, he gains a fly speed of 30ft with average maneuverability. A DFD can’t fly while carrying medium or heavy load or while fatigued or exhausted. A DFD can safely fly for a number of consecutive rounds equal to his CON-mod (minimum 1 round). He can double this length of flight but is fatigued by such exertion. The DFD is likewise fatigued after spending a total of more than 10 minutes per day flying. Because a DFD can glide before, after, and between rounds of actual flight, he can remain aloft for extended periods, even if he can only use flight for 1 round at a time without becoming fatigued.
Effortless Flight: At 12 HD, a DFD has enough stamina and prowess to fly without tiring. He can fly at a speed of 30ft (average maneuverability) with no more exertion than walking or running. A DFD with flight can make a dive attack. A dive attack works like a charge, but the DFD must move a minimum of 30ft and descend at least 10 ft. A DFD can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercing weapon. If the dive attack hits, it deals double damage. A DFD with flight can use the run action while flying, provided he flies in a straight line.
Sensory Enhancements: As given in the table
Frightful Presence: Other than the table details and the save DC of [10 + 1/2 DFD level + CHA-mod], this ability is identical to true dragons’ frightful presence. When not taking true dragon form, epic DFDs affect creatures within 90ft.
* At 3rd level a DFD’s lifespan doubles. At 6th level a DFD’s lifespan triples. This goes on with each stage Draconic Evolution. Epic level DFDs’ lifespan is 10 times greater. This increase has no affect on the character’s original racial mental-abilities’ increase. At DFD level 30, one’s lifespan becomes limitless and he never ages beyond adult. Note that advancement can actually make one’s aging process regress, which makes sense, in the spirit of draconic vitality.

Draconic Resolve (Ex)
You gain immunity to paralysis, sleep effects and frightful presence of dragons.

Draconic Might (Ex)
The DFD gains +2 STR and +2 CHA increase. The DFD may now make Claws & Bite attacks as detailed for the Half-Dragon template. A DFD’s natural attack’s magical equivalency corresponds to his DR value (+1 at 4th . . . +5 at 20th)
Additionally, the DFD may spend a move action to boost his breath weapon and deal 1d8 per DFD level, but then he must wait 2d4 rounds before he can use his Breath Weapon class feature again.

Greater Draconic Might (Ex)
The DFD gains +2 STR & CON increase and may now make a tail-slap attack against a different target within reach. This attack does the same damage as claw attack and trips automatically (allows counter-tripping).
When attacking with his class-related natural weapons, a DFD's class-derived BAB is considered good rather than average.
Additionally, the DFD may now boost his breath weapon damage as a swift action.

Draconic Transformation (Su)
As a full round action that provokes AoOs, the DFD can assume the physical form of a true dragon for a total of up to 1min per class-level per day. He may select any age-color combination whose HD don't exceed his DFD class level, gaining the form's physical ability scores and retaining his mental stats. The DFD can only choose a dragon race with a breath weapon that's already available to him. The DFD may change back and forth and even switch forms, as long as the total daily duration is not exceeded. In dragon form, if and when his class-derived breath weapon is delayed, he may still use his form's standard breath weapon (which required 1d4 rounds to replenish and doesn't stack with his class-related breath weapon).
In dragon form, the DFD's physical stats change to match that of his chose dragon's color and HD.

Superior Draconic Might (Ex)
The DFD gains +4 STR and +2 CON & CHA increase. The DFD may now spend a full round action to either make wing attacks against secondary targets or to hover and make 4 natural attacks (2 claws, 1 bite, 1 tail) against a single target.





ACF: Eldritch Savant
Some DFDs choose to neglect their physical prowess in favor of a wider repertoire of invocations.
A DFD who chooses this path does not gain scales (though energy resistance is not lost), Dragonscale Husk or the full BAB with natural weapons at level 13. Instead, s/he gains an additional invocation at 2nd level and every 3 levels thereafter (5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20).
* Inspired by AmberVael (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287276)

Amnoriath
2013-08-24, 06:15 PM
The DFA (Dragonfire Adept (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook) – DrMg; p.25) and the DS (Dragon Shaman – PHB-II, p.11) are both intended to embody draconic aspects. To my personal taste, the DS has way too many features that have nothing to do with the draconic theme (AFAIK, auras in other sources - other than Frightful Presence - came later, so I don't regard them as noteworthy references/justifications for these controversial features), and is quite poorly designed mechanically (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7964258&postcount=8) and can't keep up the pace (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7967158&postcount=13).
The DFA, OTOH, is quite appropriate thematically and is practically the only official base class whose general makeup I found quite appealing. However, it's just far too puny physically to relay the "dragon might" feel, and a bit lacking to come anywhere near a true dragon’s versatility (focused too much on just blasting).

Sure, the official class is more than decent, versatile and interesting compared to the other official non-caster base classes, and the majority of features are more or less where they're supposed to be, but I feel it needs a bit more.

I've been trying to nail down a decent draconic class ever since the days of 2e. I played around with dozens of base classes and PrCs (core and non-core), and there was always something that just didn't feel right.
This revision is a sort of cocktail between DFA, DS and Dragonborn of Bahamut. It combines all the features I found to be genuinely draconic into one class. It basically provides all 3 draconic aspects of Dragonborn of Bahamut into a single base class (given this is doable with no LA by taking a Raptoran Dragonborn of Bahamut that goes DFA, and given I find the Dragonborn of Bahamut – as presented – to be pretty farfetched, I see no reason making a player go through hulahoops to get there).

The following details don’t have a dramatic affect on the DFA's power level (other than making it a lot more robust), but I find them to make it a much more "round" and complete class.

And - as usual - I'm aiming for a solid T3.




Dragonfury Disciple:

To become a member of the DFD (Dragonfury Disciple) class, one must start with the Dragontouched feat.
The process of gaining 1st DFD level includes a special Rite of Rebirth that causes the character to further drift toward his draconic bloodline. The character’s hands become claws (ineffective as weapons at this stage), his facial features elongate, his skin becomes scaly and he starts sprouting a pair of small wings and a short tail. With each level these features become more and more evident, as the DFD rises in power and with time he learns to use them all effectively.




Class Features:

Hit Dice: d10
{table=head]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Breath Effects|Scales |Draconic Invocations

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Dragonborn, Breath Weapon| | |
1 (Least)

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Dragonkin, Dragonscale Husk|
1|
+2 AC|
1

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Draconic Evolution * (Jump +10, gliding)| | |
2

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Draconic Resolve| |
DR* 1/–|
2

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4| |
2| |
2

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|Draconic Evolution * (Darkvision 60, Lowlight Vision x4, Flight)| |
+3 AC|
3 (Lesser)

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Draconic Might (claws, bite, +2 STR, +2 CHA)| | |
3

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+6| |
3|
DR 2/–|
4

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+6|Draconic Evolution * (Darkvision 90, Blindsense 30ft)| | |
4

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+7|Breath weapon range doubles (x2)| |
+4 AC|
4

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+7| |
4| |
5 (Greater)

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|Draconic Evolution * (Darkvision 120ft, Effortless Flight)| |
DR 3/–|
5

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|Greater Draconic Might (tail, full BAB, +2 STR, +2 INT)| | |
6

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+4|
+9| |
5|
+5 AC|
6

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+9|Draconic Evolution * (Blindsense 60ft, Frightful Presence 3/day: 30ft)| | |
6

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Dragon Transformation| |
DR 4/–|
7 (Dark)

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10| |
6| |
7

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Draconic Evolution * (Frightful Presence: 60ft - always active)| |
+6 AC|
8

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Superior Draconic Might (hover, +4 STR, +2 CON, +2 CHA)| | |
8

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Breath weapon range doubles (x4)|
7|
DR 5/–|
8

[/table]


Class Skills: Dragons don't ride other creatures, they don't tinker and they're not exactly nimble-fingered (claws). Other than that, they're extremely skillful. Therefore all skills are class skills for the DFD, except Disable Device, Forgery, Handle Animal, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble and Use Rope.

Skill Points: 4 + Int-mod per level.

Weapons & Armor: Dragonfire adepts are proficient with simple weapons, but not with armor or shields. Like arcane spellcasters, a dragonfire adept wearing armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure (all invocations have somatic components).


Dragonborn (Ex)
The following stats supersede and overlap with the modifiers gained by the Dragontouched feat:
• Humanoid (dragonblood): DFDs are humanoids with the dragon subtype and any other subtypes they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth.
• Darkvision 30ft
• Low-light vision
• +1 nat. armor to AC
• +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks
• +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 DEX

Breath Weapon (Su)
All DFDs gain their heritage appropriate breath weapon. This works similar to the one given for the official DFA, but there are several differences:
Damage progression is a steady accumulation of 1d8 at each odd level (10d8 at 19th).
Breath Weapon’s Damage Type: DFDs evolves from their original draconic heritage. A DFD’s initial breath damage type corresponds to his heritage.
Also, a DFD – just like a true dragon – must wait 1d4 rounds before re-using its breath weapon.
There are several reasons behind this rule:
- The ability to use breath weapon each round shoehorns a character into boring combat routines.
- This will resolve the dilemma behind meta-breath feats.
- The DFD doesn’t really need breath-weapon availability each round.

Invocations (Sp)
Use the invocations given for the DFA.
Basically, a DFD has access to any official invocation other than blast shape and essence invocations (or totally inappropriate invocations, such as Crawling Eye and Mask of Flesh).
Also, add the following to the list of allowed invocations, for DFDs who wish to be more martially inclined:
-Ghostly Hide [Lesser, 4th]: Your natural armor gain the Ghost Touch property.
-Ghostly Touch [Lesser, 4th]: Your natural attacks gain the Ghost Touch property.

Dragonkin (Ex)
A 2nd level DFD gains a +4 competence bonus on Diplomacy checks made to influence the attitude of dragons or creatures of the dragonblood subtype.

Scales (Ex)
starting at 2nd level, DFDs gain the indicated AC adjustment (as natural armor) and DR. notice that +2 is an improvement to the +1 AC adjustment granted by Dragonborn.
Also, a DFD gains energy resistance equal to 5 times his class-derived DR. This energy resistance is applied to any breath weapon damage type in the DFD's repertoire. And as given for the DFA, a DFD is never harmed by his own breath weapon.

Dragonscale Husk (Ex)
A 2nd level DFD gains the benefits described for the Dragon Magic feat of the same name (p. 12), with the following exceptions:
- It has nothing to do with armor feats.
- The AC improvement is keyed to the DFD’s class level.
- The husk is flexible enough not to incur ASF when using DFD invocations.
- The indicated AC of the Husk overlaps with the class’ regular scaly AC (i.e. they don’t stack).

Breath Effects (Su)
This power basically functions as given in Dragon Magic, except for the given below:
- Given a DFD can start with a black dragon's (or any other dragon sub-race) heritage, all “elemental” breath damage types are available as soon as 2nd DFD level (and I'm quite ok with this). The fact that there are more monsters that are resistant to certain damage types than to others is arbitrary and at the DM's whim. In a given campaign there may be a lot of monsters who are nigh immune to electrical effects and only a handful of monsters with negligible fire resistance, so I don't consider lightning to be inherently superior to fire.
- Discorporating Breath of Bahamut and Fivefold Breath of Tiamat are banned. Reason: if you have to be brain dead not to take it, then it probably should be a class feature or is simply too much. Draconic Might (see below) covers the angle of boosted breath damage.
- Breath Effects that in the book are limited to levels 10 & 15 are limited to levels 8 & 14 respectively, except Enduring Breath that's restricted to 11th level.
- A DFD's skin & scales change colors to reflect all the different breath weapon damage types he can generate.

Draconic Evolution (Ex)
These features describe the sensory and flight capabilities of the DFD as it rises in power:
Jump: A DFD’s proto-wings grant it a +10 racial bonus to all Jump checks. When flight is gained, the wings become too large to grant this bonus in confined spaces.
Gliding: A DFD can use his wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height and allowing 20ft of forward travel for every 5ft of descent. DFD glide at a speed of 30ft with average maneuverability. Even if a DFD’s maneuverability improves, he can’t hover while gliding. A DFD can’t glide while carrying medium or heavy load. If a DFD becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, his wings naturally unfurl, and powerful ligaments stiffen them. The DFD descends slowly in a tight corkscrew and takes only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter the actual distance of the fall.
Flight: When a DFD reaches 6th level, he gains a fly speed of 30ft with average maneuverability. A DFD can’t fly while carrying medium or heavy load or while fatigued or exhausted. A DFD can safely fly for a number of consecutive rounds equal to his CON-mod (minimum 1 round). He can double this length of flight but is fatigued by such exertion. The DFD is likewise fatigued after spending a total of more than 10 minutes per day flying. Because a DFD can glide before, after, and between rounds of actual flight, he can remain aloft for extended periods, even if he can only use flight for 1 round at a time without becoming fatigued.
Effortless Flight: At 12 HD, a DFD has enough stamina and prowess to fly without tiring. He can fly at a speed of 30ft (average maneuverability) with no more exertion than walking or running. A DFD with flight can make a dive attack. A dive attack works like a charge, but the DFD must move a minimum of 30ft and descend at least 10 ft. A DFD can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercing weapon. If the dive attack hits, it deals double damage. A DFD with flight can use the run action while flying, provided he flies in a straight line.
Sensory Enhancements: As given in the table
Frightful Presence: Other than the table details and the save DC of [10 + 1/2 DFD level + CHA-mod], this ability is identical to true dragons’ frightful presence. When not taking true dragon form, epic DFDs affect creatures within 90ft.
* At 3rd level a DFD’s lifespan doubles. At 6th level a DFD’s lifespan triples. This goes on with each stage Draconic Evolution. Epic level DFDs’ lifespan is 10 times greater. This increase has no affect on the character’s original racial mental-abilities’ increase. At DFD level 30, one’s lifespan becomes limitless and he never ages beyond adult. Note that advancement can actually make one’s aging process regress, which makes sense, in the spirit of draconic vitality.

Draconic Resolve (Ex)
You gain immunity to paralysis, sleep effects and frightful presence of dragons.

Draconic Might (Ex)
The DFD gains +2 STR and +2 CHA increase. The DFD may now make Claws & Bite attacks as detailed for the Half-Dragon template. A DFD’s natural attack’s magical equivalency corresponds to his DR value (+1 at 4th . . . +5 at 20th)
Additionally, the DFD may spend a move action to boost his breath weapon and deal 1d8 per DFD level, but then he must wait 2d4 rounds before he can use his Breath Weapon class feature again.

Greater Draconic Might (Ex)
The DFD gains +2 STR & CON increase and may now make a tail-slap attack against a different target within reach. This attack does the same damage as claw attack and trips automatically (allows counter-tripping).
When attacking with his class-related natural weapons, a DFD's class-derived BAB is considered good rather than average.
Additionally, the DFD may now boost his breath weapon damage as a swift action.

Draconic Transformation (Su)
As a full round action that provokes AoOs, the DFD can assume the physical form of a true dragon for a total of up to 1min per class-level per day. He may select any age-color combination whose HD don't exceed his DFD class level, gaining the form's physical ability scores and retaining his mental stats. The DFD can only choose a dragon race with a breath weapon that's already available to him. The DFD may change back and forth and even switch forms, as long as the total daily duration is not exceeded. In dragon form, if and when his class-derived breath weapon is delayed, he may still use his form's standard breath weapon (which required 1d4 rounds to replenish and doesn't stack with his class-related breath weapon).
In dragon form, the DFD's physical stats change to match that of his chose dragon's color and HD.

Superior Draconic Might (Ex)
The DFD gains +4 STR and +2 CON & CHA increase. The DFD may now spend a full round action to either make wing attacks against secondary targets or to hover and make 4 natural attacks (2 claws, 1 bite, 1 tail) against a single target.



ACF: Eldritch Savant
Some DFDs choose to neglect their physical prowess in favor of a wider repertoire of invocations.
A DFD who chooses this path does not gain scales (though energy resistance is not lost), Dragonscale Husk or the full BAB with natural weapons at level 13. Instead, s/he gains an additional invocation at 2nd level and every 3 levels thereafter (5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20).
* Inspired by AmberVael (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287276)
Tier 3 "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time." JaronK
No, this isn't a tier 3. While typically the way something is considered a tier 2 and above is whether or not it has good 9th level "spell-like abilities" and if it has at least as many abilities as it does class levels this has many characteristics of the CoDzilla issues. While not nearly as diverse in spells this class can blast very well, ubercharge as well as a full BAB character+, tank, skirmish, field control, and still has some very decent skill-like abilities all in the same build. There is a reason why the DFA had a heel with poor BAB and therefore never was a draconic class that fully encompassed all what a dragon had.

nonsi
2013-08-25, 01:00 AM
Tier 3 "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time." JaronK

Let's go with the bolded option and see if I can explain my angle.




No, this isn't a tier 3. While typically the way something is considered a tier 2 and above is whether or not it has good 9th level "spell-like abilities" and if it has at least as many abilities as it does class levels this has many characteristics of the CoDzilla issues.

I'm not sure you can use this argument.
Explanation: my Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14982442) and my Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276009) have more class features than class levels and I don't see how one could argue either of them is above T3.




While not nearly as diverse in spells this class can blast very well, ubercharge as well as a full BAB character+, tank, skirmish, field control, and still has some very decent skill-like abilities all in the same build.

blast very well: That's where the class really excels.
ubercharge as well as a full BAB character+: I don't know what the plus stands for. With 1d4 claw damage and 1d6 bite damage, it has a lowsy base damage and lowsy crit multiplier. that's no mach for a fighter with a Greatsword + Weapon Focus tree + PA line. A DFD won't be able to pay the feat tax - and it would be strategically unwise. Furthermore, we're in the homebrew department, so no non-caster is gonna lag behind where decently designed classes exist.
tank: Ditto. The husk is inferior to magical armor, the class has no built in proficiency with shields and even if it did - it would come at the expense of claw attack and a free hand.
skirmish: 1. No precision damage. 2. quote: "A DFD can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercing weapon". It doesn't get Flyby Attack for free.
field control: Sure, along with blasting. that's also the DFA's shtick. But all the DFA does is blast (without cross-referencing multiple books), so I forced the 1d4-rounds cooldown, which also solves the metabreath feats argument and forces a character to do other things beyond blasting.




and still has some very decent skill-like abilities

I didn't follow you on this one. Care to elaborate?




all in the same build

ATM, I don't this such a scenario. Can you give an example build?




There is a reason why the DFA had a heel with poor BAB and therefore never was a draconic class that fully encompassed all what a dragon had.

True dragons come with many of the class features (senses, flight, AC) as hatchlings, more skill points, more HP, elevated attributes, spells and SR.

Amechra
2013-08-25, 02:06 AM
Mind if I reorganize the table? As it is, my eyes kinda slide off it, and that kinda sucks.

Why even reference Dragontouched? You could just say that they get it as a bonus feat and then carry on with the rest of the class feature.

That invocations section should be a little bit fleshed out. As it is, you tell us to use the DFA invocation list, and then, one sentence later, tell us that their list is all official invocations "except inappropriate ones." Wha? Seriously, you list two examples of "inappropriate invocations", but give us no guidelines beyond that.

Why even have breath effects? Just let them learn Eldritch Essences and apply them to their breath weapon. It's neater, allows for more expansion, and would let you go ahead and make their list Dragonfire Adept Invocations + Eldritch Essences.

If you want greater variation in what type of Breath Weapons this guy can flip out with... Just give 'em Draconic Heritage as part of Dragonborn, thus allowing them to pick and choose what dragon they are idolizing (as well as giving them some an extra class skill. Always nice.) Then, just have their breath weapon deal the same type of damage as their "ancestor".

Any real reason for the stat increases other than "dragons have high stats"? Getting a continual bonus to ability scores like that is really kinda unnecessary.

As for Scales and Dragonscale Husk... All I'm going to ask is why you went the route you did. You might as well rewrite both of them as one feature, allowing you to boost your AC by treating yourself as if you were wearing heavier armor. It also dodges the really poor wording of Dragonscale Husk.

Instead of giving them full Dragon transformation out of nowhere, why not instead go the Shapechange Druid route, and have them able to adopt a more draconic form as a swift action at will, starting from lower levels? You could shove the ability score increases in there as well as activating "Dragonscale Husk" automatically, and get the senses then.

You do realize that there is a flight invocation on both the Warlock and the DFA lists, right? Just give it to them as a bonus invocation at 6th level, drop Effortless Flight, and make it give them wings as part of the benefit.

And Draconic Evolution should be less... concentrated. The fact that you are getting flight doesn't have anything mechanical to do with your increased senses.

Finally... Frightful Presence gets an eyebrow from me. Not the ability itself (which is appropriate), just the fact that you are using the really, really stupid scaling from Savage Species. Why not, instead of making it based off of times per day, instead have it start off as a "lesser" Frightful Presence

All in all, looks a bit sloppy to me, but it's a promising start.

nonsi
2013-08-25, 07:19 AM
Hi Amechra,

1st of all, thanks for the detailed reply.




Mind if I reorganize the table? As it is, my eyes kinda slide off it, and that kinda sucks.

"Slide off" in what way ?




Why even reference Dragontouched? You could just say that they get it as a bonus feat and then carry on with the rest of the class feature.

Several reasons:
1. It's kinda an issue of mine. I know it's a game, but I find it highly distasteful for someone to enter a base class and all of a sudden gain racial traits.
2. Dragontouched is just lame as a class' 1st level feature. One should start a lot more draconic to justify the evolution of draconic traits later on.
3. I really don't like it that Dragonborn eliminates original racial traits, so I was looking for something that will slide for me.




As it is, you tell us to use the DFA invocation list,

That line shouldn't have been there to start with.
I just forgot to delete it.
There, it's gone now.




and then, one sentence later, tell us that their list is all official invocations "except inappropriate ones." Wha? Seriously, you list two examples of "inappropriate invocations", but give us no guidelines beyond that.

Basically, the idea is to nix invocations that blatantly defy the draconic theme.
It's up to the DM and player to decide what's inappropriate.
I just listed the ones that irked my eye.




Why even have breath effects? Just let them learn Eldritch Essences and apply them to their breath weapon. It's neater, allows for more expansion, and would let you go ahead and make their list Dragonfire Adept Invocations + Eldritch Essences.

1. As far as blasting goes, > .
2. Eldritch Essences & Blast Shapes defy everything that smells of draconic theme to me.




If you want greater variation in what type of Breath Weapons this guy can flip out with... Just give 'em Draconic Heritage as part of Dragonborn,

The only Draconic Heritage feats I know are from Complete Arcane, and those are keyed off of spells.
I'm guessing you're talking about a different set of feats . . . (?)




thus allowing them to pick and choose what dragon they are idolizing (as well as giving them some an extra class skill. Always nice.) Then, just have their breath weapon deal the same type of damage as their "ancestor".

This class is based primarily on the DFA, which doesn't idolize any particular dragon race, but studies them all and enjoys multiple aspects.
That's the theme I wish to preserve




Any real reason for the stat increases other than "dragons have high stats"? Getting a continual bonus to ability scores like that is really kinda unnecessary.

True dragons are physically powerful & durable. They're of high intellect and powerful personalities.
And yes. With low base damage dice of natural attack, they need the damage boost and I'd expect a DFD to be inherently superior to others in grappling.




As for Scales and Dragonscale Husk... All I'm going to ask is why you went the route you did. You might as well rewrite both of them as one feature, allowing you to boost your AC by treating yourself as if you were wearing heavier armor. It also dodges the [I]really poor wording of Dragonscale Husk.

1. Do you view your solution as (Ex) or (Su) ? If it's (Su), then it's undesireable for me.
2. Dragonscale Husk is originally treated as medium armor. Treating it as heavy armor seems too high a price to pay.
3. Which med/heavy armor should I coompare it to ?
4. I like the option of getting rid of the husk and easily acquiring it at the character's leisure.




Instead of giving them full Dragon transformation out of nowhere, why not instead go the Shapechange Druid route, and have them able to adopt a more draconic form as a swift action at will, starting from lower levels? You could shove the ability score increases in there as well as activating "Dragonscale Husk" automatically, and get the senses then.

The draconic traits being (Ex) is important to me with this class.
This could be quite nice, but I can't envision it ATM, so I invite you to share [B]your vision.




You do realize that there is a flight invocation on both the Warlock and the DFA lists, right? Just give it to them as a bonus invocation at 6th level, drop Effortless Flight, and make it give them wings as part of the benefit.

1. Yes. one successful dispel and you go down like a rock. For that I could just take a a wizard and win the game.
2. The whole point about this class is draconic evolution, not Wild-Shape wanna be, but nevertheless I wish to see how you see things.




And Draconic Evolution should be less... concentrated. The fact that you are getting flight doesn't have anything mechanical to do with your increased senses.

Go back to my comments regarding the Raptoran-based build in the OP.
That's the only way I'd go about it if I had to use official materials only, but thematically speaking, I don't wan't to play a Raptoran (I mean, I wanna be a DRAGON - I don't wann go "tweet tweet"). Don't shove it down my throat.




Finally... Frightful Presence gets an eyebrow from me. Not the ability itself (which is appropriate), just the fact that you are using the really, really stupid scaling from Savage Species.

ATM, I'm not familiar with the "really, really stupid scaling from Savage Species"




Why not, instead of making it based off of times per day, instead have it start off as a "lesser" Frightful Presence

Too many class feature slots "eaten".




All in all, looks a bit sloppy to me, but it's a promising start.

Well, at least that :smallbiggrin:

Amechra
2013-08-25, 08:09 AM
Alright, I'll just share how I would do it.

1. I would start off with, in place of getting the Dragonborn class feature, instead getting Dragontouched and Draconic Heritage as bonus feats.

Draconic Heritage is from Races of the Dragon, and lets you pick one type of dragon to be your "ancestor". You gain a small bonus on certain saves (most notably against spells and abilities that fit a certain elemental descriptor) and one skill as a permanent class skill.

2. I would then base the damage type of your breath weapon off your Draconic Heritage feat; for example, if you went with Silver Dragon as your starting point, your breath weapon would deal cold damage.

3. I would have an explicit list of what invocations they have; otherwise, there's a good chance DMs won't allow the class, since it looks like a lot more work (even if it actually isn't), invites arguments (not everyone has the same perception of what is suitably Draconic), and, well... Imagine someone made a Sorcerer fix and made it so they could pick "any spell you think fits X theme".

4. First of all, Eldritch Essences are actually stronger than Breath Effects; they just don't "look" it because normally they are tethered to a single 60' ray. Also, I don't quite understand what you mean by "they defy everything draconic"; is it the names? Because, quite frankly, I can't see anything there that wouldn't be "dragon-y" if you just, you know, changed the name.

5. I would allow them to, at 2nd level, "assume Draconic form". The ability itself would be supernatural, but the traits of the form you take would be extraordinary.

At first, the only effect would be increasing the AC bonus from Scales to equal the bonus you'd get from Dragonscale Husk (I'd also have it be treated as Medium armor, because it feels right.) However, as you gain more levels in the class, it gains additional abilities.

As a drawback, in this form you don't get to wield weapons. Before you complain about this, when was the last time you saw a dragon wield a sword? You also can't wear armor.

6. You would get the ability to glide from level 1. At 6th level, you would immediately get the Draconic Flight invocation. At this point, entering Draconic Form automatically activates Draconic Flight as an Extraordinary ability, supplying you with wings and everything.

7. Over the course of the class, the Draconic form gets bonuses to ability scores when you adopt it (I would make them Enhancement bonuses to ability scores, instead of untyped. Untyped bonuses are a no), size increases, and other fun stuff.

8. I would hand out Frightful Presence early on (the always on version), but I would put limitations on it. For example, I might start it off with only frightening people you attack, expanding that to people you charge, and then finally allowing it to affect people you fly over.

9. Finally, after a certain point I would change your type to Dragon while you were in Draconic Form.

In other words, what I would aim for would be a class where, if you got to 20th level, you could pass for an actual dragon, with an "alternate form" (your actual natural form) and all the other fixings.

I'd still hand out the natural weapons and the enhanced senses, but I would spread them out a bit more. I'd also probably let the person taking the class pick a small number of Invocations to be "natural" parts of their Draconic Form.

Amnoriath
2013-08-25, 08:51 AM
Let's go with the bolded option and see if I can explain my angle.



I'm not sure you can use this argument.
Explanation: my Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14982442) and my Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276009) have more class features than class levels and I don't see how one could argue either of them is above T3.



blast very well: That's where the class really excels.
ubercharge as well as a full BAB character+: I don't know what the plus stands for. With 1d4 claw damage and 1d6 bite damage, it has a lowsy base damage and lowsy crit multiplier. that's no mach for a fighter with a Greatsword + Weapon Focus tree + PA line. A DFD won't be able to pay the feat tax - and it would be strategically unwise. Furthermore, we're in the homebrew department, so no non-caster is gonna lag behind where decently designed classes exist.
tank: Ditto. The husk is inferior to magical armor, the class has no built in proficiency with shields and even if it did - it would come at the expense of claw attack and a free hand.
skirmish: 1. No precision damage. 2. quote: "A DFD can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercing weapon". It doesn't get Flyby Attack for free.
field control: Sure, along with blasting. that's also the DFA's shtick. But all the DFA does is blast (without cross-referencing multiple books), so I forced the 1d4-rounds cooldown, which also solves the metabreath feats argument and forces a character to do other things beyond blasting.



I didn't follow you on this one. Care to elaborate?



ATM, I don't this such a scenario. Can you give an example build?



True dragons come with many of the class features (senses, flight, AC) as hatchlings, more skill points, more HP, elevated attributes, spells and SR.
1. You haven't explained your angle. You are just stating a claim. I stated that this is really good in a lot of things. So it really doesn't have much weight if you consider mine to have little as well.
2. I don't know why you quoted the whole thing and bold some of it while only criticizing the bold section. The statement explains why something like the Wilder isn't normally considered tier 2. I doubt that your fixes has many 9th level "spell-like abilities" options.
3. You also give a tail slap which unless it is secondary has 1.5 str. bonus added to it. While the Power Attack doesn't exactly elaborate how all natural weapons power attack it does say that they can. So the most reasonable assumption would be to assume the power attack like one handed weapons since it adds str. bonus damage. Since, the only logical reason why two-handed weapons power attack so well is represented in 1.5 str. bonus by holding it in two hands it would stand to reason your tail slap would do the same.
2. Ah, you haven't look much at Sandstorm have you? There is a chemical that when applied to any shirt it gains a +1 armor bonus with no penalties. Since the rules of masterwork only require that it cost more than a 1000 gp any shirt slot magic item can now be enchanted like armor allowing to buy your favorite armor enchantment while having a substantial AC bonus from your husk. You also give free Knockdown on the tail slap.
3. It is one feat and you should consult some of the options of the invocations you adopted.
4. Magical insight, walk the unseen, beguiling influence, melodious song, draconic knowledge...etc
Dragons: Yes, but the True Dragons are the CoDzillas of D&D monsters. Do you really want to make a base class that can fully emulate that? That isn't the spirit of tier 3. All in all it maybe a tier 2 if not an unfair, high-powered tier 3. However that shouldn't make you happy. I will get to a build later since I have to work.

NosferatuZodd
2013-08-25, 02:04 PM
I think Amechra's suggestions should probably be taken very seriously. The one problem I can completely see with this class is it's progression. Let me just list off some suggestions I suppose.

You have alot of dead levels, you should fill them.

The progression is kinda jaunty for things like natural weapons, if you want this class to have the appropriate feel for someone emulating the power of a dragon, you should probably make using their natural weapons a more viable option.

I'd also get rid of that draconic transformation polymorph effect and simply make them more draconic as they level up as Amechra suggested, that way you don't run into the problems with your physical ability scores just getting fully replaced.

nonsi
2013-08-25, 03:28 PM
Alright, I'll just share how I would do it.

1. I would start off with, in place of getting the Dragonborn class feature, instead getting Dragontouched and Draconic Heritage as bonus feats.

Draconic Heritage is from Races of the Dragon, and lets you pick one type of dragon to be your "ancestor". You gain a small bonus on certain saves (most notably against spells and abilities that fit a certain elemental descriptor) and one skill as a permanent class skill.

2. I would then base the damage type of your breath weapon off your Draconic Heritage feat; for example, if you went with Silver Dragon as your starting point, your breath weapon would deal cold damage.

It seems like we’ll have to agree to disagree here.
The Draconic Heritage line is strictly arcane. I don’t see how you can twist it to not being keyed off of spells.
I also don’t see any mental acrobatics that will allow one to treat their bonuses as (Ex) abilities.
Also, the whole point of this class is lost if it were confined to a single dragon heritage.




3. I would have an explicit list of what invocations they have; otherwise, there's a good chance DMs won't allow the class, since it looks like a lot more work (even if it actually isn't), invites arguments (not everyone has the same perception of what is suitably Draconic), and, well... Imagine someone made a Sorcerer fix and made it so they could pick "any spell you think fits X theme".

This is actually a good idea. Guess I’ll have to stretch my fingers and start compiling a list.




4. First of all, Eldritch Essences are actually stronger than Breath Effects; they just don't "look" it because normally they are tethered to a single 60' ray. Also, I don't quite understand what you mean by "they defy everything draconic"; is it the names? Because, quite frankly, I can't see anything there that wouldn't be "dragon-y" if you just, you know, changed the name.

Actually, it’s the effects, not the names.




5. I would allow them to, at 2nd level, "assume Draconic form". The ability itself would be supernatural, but the traits of the form you take would be extraordinary.

1. Define "assume Draconic form".
2. I’m not aware of any feature that works like this – official or otherwise.




At first, the only effect would be increasing the AC bonus from Scales to equal the bonus you'd get from Dragonscale Husk (I'd also have it be treated as Medium armor, because it feels right.) However, as you gain more levels in the class, it gains additional abilities.

Which additional abilities did you have in mind ?




As a drawback, in this form you don't get to wield weapons. Before you complain about this, when was the last time you saw a dragon wield a sword? You also can't wear armor.

No complaints there, but somehow, many feel right with a dragon-themed character wielding a spear (i'm actually ok with this... Dragonlance and stuff you know).




6. You would get the ability to glide from level 1. At 6th level, you would immediately get the Draconic Flight invocation. At this point, entering Draconic Form automatically activates Draconic Flight as an Extraordinary ability, supplying you with wings and everything.

How can an invocation based ability be (Ex) ?




7. Over the course of the class, the Draconic form gets bonuses to ability scores when you adopt it (I would make them Enhancement bonuses to ability scores, instead of untyped. Untyped bonuses are a no), size increases, and other fun stuff.

As I said, I can’t envision it ATM, so it could help if you at least presented the “Special” column you had in mind.




8. I would hand out Frightful Presence early on (the always on version), but I would put limitations on it. For example, I might start it off with only frightening people you attack, expanding that to people you charge, and then finally allowing it to affect people you fly over.

I think you meant it to be the other way around, given that Charge is a specific form of attack.
But the idea is nice.
I’ll have to see if I could incorporate this somehow.




9. Finally, after a certain point I would change your type to Dragon while you were in Draconic Form.

In other words, what I would aim for would be a class where, if you got to 20th level, you could pass for an actual dragon, with an "alternate form" (your actual natural form) and all the other fixings.

Only a marginal amount of characters that start at low level actually get to taste level 20, so it seems like this would be missing the point at this stage.
In any case, 1min / day spread out according to the character’s convenience seems more than enough to me (unless you actually need long term disguise as a true dragon).




I'd still hand out the natural weapons and the enhanced senses, but I would spread them out a bit more. I'd also probably let the person taking the class pick a small number of Invocations to be "natural" parts of their Draconic Form.

The way I laid things, I wouldn’t allow it, because there must be a tradeoff – otherwise dragon form would be a no-brainer.

nonsi
2013-08-25, 03:36 PM
I think Amechra's suggestions should probably be taken very seriously. The one problem I can completely see with this class is it's progression. Let me just list off some suggestions I suppose.

You have alot of dead levels, you should fill them.

The progression is kinda jaunty for things like natural weapons, if you want this class to have the appropriate feel for someone emulating the power of a dragon, you should probably make using their natural weapons a more viable option.

I'd also get rid of that draconic transformation polymorph effect and simply make them more draconic as they level up as Amechra suggested, that way you don't run into the problems with your physical ability scores just getting fully replaced.

Again, I need some examples, because at current I have no idea how to do that without throwing the class away and basically starting from scratch.

As far as "dead levels" go, each so called "dead level" grants a new breath effect. Two of which come with an additional invocation.

Amnoriath
2013-08-25, 04:11 PM
Here we go
Human Dragonfury Disciple 13
Flaws: Pathetic(Wis)
Stats. Base
Str. 22(+6)
Dex. 10(0)
Con. 20(+5)
Int. 12(+1)
Wis 10(-1) Pathetic
Cha. 16(+3)
Feats
L1 Entangling Exhalation
Power Attack
Battle Jump
L3 Improved Bull Rush
L6 Leap Attack
L9 Shock Trooper
L12 Flyby Attack
Breath Effects
Acid Breath
Slow Breath
Enduring Breath
Frost Breath
Invocations
Endure Exposure
Magic Insight
Humanoid Shape
Draconic Knowledge
Walk the Unseen
Chilling Fog
The Feats obviously add in Ubercharger utilizing his tail slap as a two-handed weapon to deal an obscene amount of damage. Your Flight, Battle Jump, Walk the Unseen, and Humanoid Shape can all add new ways to make charging that much easier. Magic Insight is free, quick identify and detect magic, Draconic Knowledge bonuses and able to use all knowledge skills. Humanoid Shape can add various skills bonuses. Skirmish is from Flyby Attack, Walk the Unseen, some humanoids have burrow speeds Some key items that could add a lot is a belt of battle, gorget of tempest breath, necklace of natural attacks(tail)+novice devoted amulet(Thicket of Blades) using Magic Item Compendium rules of stacking item effects.

Amechra
2013-08-25, 06:55 PM
Do you have a copy of Player's Handbook II?

The Shapeshift Druid ACF essentially does exactly what my theoretical "assume Draconic Form" ability would do; it essentially puts you in a "Rage-like" state where you get buffs and extra abilities (such as Pounce, in the official ability) that are added onto your stats.

I'm still confused about how Eldritch Essences are not Draconic in effect; there isn't a single one of them that I couldn't see as either related to one of the True Dragon's breath weapons (cones of sleep, paralysis, etc, etc) or just something that would look appropriate with a dragon's breath weapon (lighting a guy on fire, ignoring hardness, chilling someone to the bone...)

As for "how can an Invocation based ability be Ex"... easy. You just say that it's Extraordinary. You are adding the effects of that invocation as inherent part of your "dragon shape".

The beauty of having a scaling effect like what I'm saying is that you could fake being a young dragon as early as, say, 4th level, thus letting the player have that fun at levels where people, you know, actually play.

As for "Dragon Form being a no-brainer"... there's a reason why I said that you wouldn't be able to wield weapons or wear armor in the alternate form. So it wouldn't be an absolute no brainer.

And, no, I meant to put the Frightful Presence stuff in that order; I worded it badly though (the first part was supposed to be limited to people you attack; it was meant to expand to anyone who sees you make an attack, and then to anyone who sees you pass overhead.)

NosferatuZodd
2013-08-25, 09:03 PM
And even then, why wouldn't you want your dragon form to be a 'no-brainer'

The entire point of this class is to emulate a dragon, so isn't that the entire point?

nonsi
2013-08-26, 12:35 AM
And even then, why wouldn't you want your dragon form to be a 'no-brainer'

The entire point of this class is to emulate a dragon, so isn't that the entire point?

No-brainers discourage strategies.
There shouldn't be a single tool that does the best job all the time, because even if it's effective, you're still basically a kind of one-trick-pony, and sooner or later this gets boring.

NosferatuZodd
2013-08-26, 01:25 AM
I'm pretty sure having them transform into their draconic form and encouraging emulating dragons isn't going to just make them want to do one thing.

It's not like they're forced to stick to one thing in that form.

Amechra
2013-08-26, 05:25 AM
You know, if their Draconic Form gave size increases, it wouldn't become a no-brainer.

Kinda hard to move around in doors when you're too big to go through the doors.

nonsi
2013-08-26, 07:04 AM
Do you have a copy of Player's Handbook II?

Yes




The Shapeshift Druid ACF essentially does exactly what my theoretical "assume Draconic Form" ability would do; it essentially puts you in a "Rage-like" state where you get buffs and extra abilities (such as Pounce, in the official ability) that are added onto your stats.

Originally, I was going for a Raptoran Dragonborn (Heart aspect) DFA + 1/2 Dragon template - all rolled into a single class, but I'll bite.
I'm guessing that this could be an (Ex) ability, but that's all I have now, so let's get down to specifics.
How many stages ?
At which levels ?
At each stage...:
- What would a DFD's appearance be ?
- What attacks will be available ?
- What will be the stat-enhancements ?
- What will be the size increase ?
- When does a DFD gain the Dragon subtype ?
- What's the duration you were thinking of ?
- What about AC progression ?
- What about the increased senses ?
- What about flight progression ?
- What will be the action cost and how will it decrease ?




I'm still confused about how Eldritch Essences are not Draconic in effect; there isn't a single one of them that I couldn't see as either related to one of the True Dragon's breath weapons (cones of sleep, paralysis, etc, etc) or just something that would look appropriate with a dragon's breath weapon (lighting a guy on fire, ignoring hardness, chilling someone to the bone...)

Ok, assuming we go for invocations and not breath effects - how many did you have in mind? (at each level).
And how do you apply Eldritch Chain to an AoE?




As for "how can an Invocation based ability be Ex"... easy. You just say that it's Extraordinary. You are adding the effects of that invocation as inherent part of your "dragon shape".

This won't slide with most DMs (haven't met one that would), so it's not really an option.




The beauty of having a scaling effect like what I'm saying is that you could fake being a young dragon as early as, say, 4th level, thus letting the player have that fun at levels where people, you know, actually play.

This highly depends on your implementation of "Assume Draconic Form".




As for "Dragon Form being a no-brainer"... there's a reason why I said that you wouldn't be able to wield weapons or wear armor in the alternate form. So it wouldn't be an absolute no brainer.

Fair enough.




And, no, I meant to put the Frightful Presence stuff in that order; I worded it badly though (the first part was supposed to be limited to people you attack; it was meant to expand to anyone who sees you make an attack, and then to anyone who sees you pass overhead.)

I'm guessing we'll get there along with "Assume Draconic Form". Basically, it seems like everything revolves around that.

nonsi
2013-08-26, 07:35 AM
The Feats obviously add in Ubercharger utilizing his tail slap as a two-handed weapon to deal an obscene amount of damage.

“obscene” you say ?

Let’s see what the numbers add up to.

(1d4 + 9) x 3 + 9 = 39 – 48 . . . + Trip
That’s all you’re gonna get out of your attack, because 3 of your proposed feats don’t even allow multiple attcks.
All for the “measly” price of 6 feats
Now, suppose you had a really soft target and you went for broke – that’s still no more than +26.
You could theoretically squeeze +13 on a successful crit, making it a total of [39 – 48] + 26 + 13 = 78 – 87.

(did I get the numbers correct?)

Not event impressive.
And . . .
It’s situational.
It eats up all your character build resources.
You’re using one heck of a stretch of the imagination, combining Battle Jump (vertical drop) Leap Attack (basically horizontal “ballistics”) and Flyby Attack (neither). This definitely won’t slide with all DMs, even if applicable by RAW (good luck finding one – if you did, then you’re welcome to enjoy it).

< EDIT >
Come to think of it. I forgot to multiply PA damage.
So you get [78 – 87] + (2 x 26 ) = [140 - 149]
Still within reason, when you put so much attention to damage.
< / EDIT >




Your Flight, Battle Jump, Walk the Unseen, and Humanoid Shape can all add new ways to make charging that much easier.

Let’s focus on Humanoid Shape for a moment.
1. A sensible DM would not allow you to transform to creatures you haven’t encountered.
2. it requires game specialization.
3. you’re not gonna benefit from your draconic tail in humanoid shape.




Magic Insight is free, quick identify and detect magic, Draconic Knowledge bonuses and able to use all knowledge skills.

You’re making it sound like versatility is a bad thing.




Humanoid Shape can add various skills bonuses.

Great. That’s level 13 we’re talking about.




Attack, Walk the Unseen,

Many CR 13+ opponents sneer at invisibility.




Some key items that could add a lot is a belt of battle

Won’t do much for uber-charging.




gorget of tempest breath

nice, but again, won’t do much for uber-charging.




necklace of natural attacks(tail)

suppose you could get the base tail damage as high as d8 = that’s still only +24 to the max damage.
Still within reason for level 13.




novice devoted amulet(Thicket of Blades) using Magic Item Compendium rules of stacking item effects.

You’re assuming ToB is allowed, but I didn’t bring ToB into the discussion at all.

Amechra
2013-08-26, 09:54 AM
Eldritch Chain is a Blast Shape, not an Eldritch Essence. Eldritch Essences modify the effects of your Eldritch Blast, not the shape. You can stick to your Breath Effect progression, and just replace 'em with Eldritch Essences. You can't pick any Eldritch Essences of a higher level (Least/Lesser/Greater/Dark) than your normal Invocations.

- What would a DFD's appearance be ?
Determined by the player, OK'd by the DM.

- What attacks will be available ?
Their breath weapons, natural attacks, and any invocations that they have.

- What will be the stat-enhancements ?
Start at +2 Con -2 Dex at 1st level, +2 Str and +2 Cha at 7th level, +2 Str and +2 Int at 13th level, and an additional +4 to Str, +2 to Cha, and +2 to Con at 19th level. (progression look familiar? :smallwink:).

- What will be the size increase ?
Stick a +1 size category in at 7th and 13th (without any of the normal ability score modifiers for size increases)

- When does a DFD gain the Dragon subtype ?
Whenever there's space; considering that they already qualify for Dragon-only stuff by being Dragonblooded, it would mostly be a fluff transition anyway.

- What's the duration you were thinking of ?
Indefinite. That's what the Shapeshift Druid does, and I'm OK with that.

- What about AC progression ?
Go by your Scale progression up there; have the NA AC bonus improved to 6 + 1/3 caster level and hand out the elemental resistances from Dragonscale Husk at the same rate as that ability (still basing it off of caster level).

- What about the increased senses ?
Go with the progression you already have.

- What about flight progression ?
Start off with gliding, like you already do, and just give them Draconic Flight as a bonus invocation; have the Draconic Form explicitly state that, as long as you are in Draconic Form, you gain the benefits of Draconic Flight as an Extraordinary ability.

- What will be the action cost and how will it decrease ?
Swift action to enter, Move action to leave. You don't need to decrease the action cost.

As for "no DM will accept this", I disagree. You just got to word it the right way. You could just go ahead and say that you can activate the invocations as part of the same action as entering Draconic Form, limit it to invocations that have a 24 hour duration, and say that you lose the benefits of that activation of the invocation as soon as you lose Draconic Form.

To clarify on the point of "Assume Draconic Form"... One of my goals in writing it would be that, if you really wanted to, you could just never enter Draconic Form ever; you'd still get every benefit except for the improved AC bonus, the size increases, and the ability score bonuses, but you'd also gain the definite advantage of being able to use actual weapons and armor.

Amnoriath
2013-08-26, 12:47 PM
“obscene” you say ?

Let’s see what the numbers add up to.

(1d4 + 9) x 3 + 9 = 39 – 48 . . . + Trip
That’s all you’re gonna get out of your attack, because 3 of your proposed feats don’t even allow multiple attcks.
All for the “measly” price of 6 feats
Now, suppose you had a really soft target and you went for broke – that’s still no more than +26.
You could theoretically squeeze +13 on a successful crit, making it a total of [39 – 48] + 26 + 13 = 78 – 87.

(did I get the numbers correct?)

Not event impressive.
And . . .
It’s situational.
It eats up all your character build resources.
You’re using one heck of a stretch of the imagination, combining Battle Jump (vertical drop) Leap Attack (basically horizontal “ballistics”) and Flyby Attack (neither). This definitely won’t slide with all DMs, even if applicable by RAW (good luck finding one – if you did, then you’re welcome to enjoy it).

< EDIT >
Come to think of it. I forgot to multiply PA damage.
So you get [78 – 87] + (2 x 26 ) = [140 - 149]
Still within reason, when you put so much attention to damage.
< / EDIT >



Let’s focus on Humanoid Shape for a moment.
1. A sensible DM would not allow you to transform to creatures you haven’t encountered.
2. it requires game specialization.
3. you’re not gonna benefit from your draconic tail in humanoid shape.



You’re making it sound like versatility is a bad thing.



Great. That’s level 13 we’re talking about.



Many CR 13+ opponents sneer at invisibility.



Won’t do much for uber-charging.



nice, but again, won’t do much for uber-charging.



suppose you could get the base tail damage as high as d8 = that’s still only +24 to the max damage.
Still within reason for level 13.



You’re assuming ToB is allowed, but I didn’t bring ToB into the discussion at all.

Do you even know how Ubercharging at base works? On a charge he can transfer the Power Attack attack penalty to defense from Shock Trooper. Natural Attacks can Power Attack and a tail slap does 1.5 str. damage typical. Look at what I said before you have 26 automatically. Leap Attack triples power attack damage for two-handed and that is 78. So a base bonus of 87. You add in Battle Jump that doubles the entire attack so long as he falls 5 feet above an opponent. A cheap weapon enchantment of valorous(+1) increases the multiplier to x3. Let us not also forget a little tail attachment to allow piercing damage to raise that final to x4, do the math.
You are expecting a lot of personal preference and DM fiat outside what the abilities are intended to do. While Invisibility is quite common, burrow isn't. I am not knocking versatility but I brought up a build that fits all what I claim. You can ignore all the material you want but others won't so I am bringing it up.

nonsi
2013-08-26, 03:35 PM
Do you even know how Ubercharging at base works? On a charge he can transfer the Power Attack attack penalty to defense from Shock Trooper. Natural Attacks can Power Attack and a tail slap does 1.5 str. damage typical. Look at what I said before you have 26 automatically. Leap Attack triples power attack damage for two-handed and that is 78. So a base bonus of 87. You add in Battle Jump that doubles the entire attack so long as he falls 5 feet above an opponent. A cheap weapon enchantment of valorous(+1) increases the multiplier to x3. Let us not also forget a little tail attachment to allow piercing damage to raise that final to x4, do the math.

1. Multiple multiplies don't multiply, so "doubles the entire attack" goes out the window.
2. Re-read the description please (http://dndtools.eu/feats/unapproachable-east--33/battle-jump--187/).





You are expecting a lot of personal preference and DM fiat outside what the abilities are intended to do. While Invisibility is quite common, burrow isn't. I am not knocking versatility but I brought up a build that fits all what I claim. You can ignore all the material you want but others won't so I am bringing it up.

I'm being practical.
As long as you don't find a DM that will approve stacking everything in your proposed build into a single attak, it remains in the realm of theoretical char-op.
I personally haven't met or even heard of a DM that will approve of it.

Amnoriath
2013-08-26, 04:03 PM
1. Multiple multiplies don't multiply, so "doubles the entire attack" goes out the window.
2. Re-read the description please (http://dndtools.eu/feats/unapproachable-east--33/battle-jump--187/).




I'm being practical.
As long as you don't find a DM that will approve stacking everything in your proposed build into a single attak, it remains in the realm of theoretical char-op.
I personally haven't met or even heard of a DM that will approve of it.
1.They don't multiply over and over but they do stack(Hence x4). Also Leap Attack specifically multiplies Power Attack so it goes first.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm
http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/leap-attack--1741/
"You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent."
Yes you do have to jump, but forced falling is a move action. Also a charge can be done as a standard it just uses a single movement. It doesn't say how to jump like say using a wall or even a creature to spring off of.
2. Ask a lot of the veterans on here they see it all the time. The fact is "practically" this is what the tier 4 full BAB characters do very well by RAI and RAW. It is what keeps them functional in a group.

nonsi
2013-08-26, 05:26 PM
Eldritch Chain is a Blast Shape, not an Eldritch Essence.

All I can say is oooops . . . :smallredface:




You can stick to your Breath Effect progression, and just replace 'em with Eldritch Essences.

A total of 15. Seems reasonable, I guess.
But come to think of it, won’t this kinda blow even my Warlock remake out the water ?




You can't pick any Eldritch Essences of a higher level (Least/Lesser/Greater/Dark) than your normal Invocations.

Naturally.




- What would a DFD's appearance be ?
Determined by the player, OK'd by the DM.

Bad mojo.
This is something that could have a significant effect on a campaign.
You can’t discard of this issue with handwaving.




- What attacks will be available ?
Their breath weapons, natural attacks, and any invocations that they have.

Starting when ?
You can’t just hand them all out at level 1.
You won’t be able to reconcile it with ˝-Dragon template (LA +3, not counting racial HD).




- What will be the stat-enhancements ?
Start at +2 Con -2 Dex at 1st level, +2 Str and +2 Cha at 7th level, +2 Str and +2 Int at 13th level, and an additional +4 to Str, +2 to Cha, and +2 to Con at 19th level. (progression look familiar? ).

I don’t see how Dex fits dragons at all.
I think I’ll stick with Str.




- What will be the size increase ?
Stick a +1 size category in at 7th and 13th (without any of the normal ability score modifiers for size increases)

Seems fair.




- When does a DFD gain the Dragon subtype ?
Whenever there's space; considering that they already qualify for Dragon-only stuff by being Dragonblooded, it would mostly be a fluff transition anyway.

Acceptable.
I guess it could be from level 1 in draconic form.




- What's the duration you were thinking of ?
Indefinite. That's what the Shapeshift Druid does, and I'm OK with that.

Good call.




- What about AC progression ?
Go by your Scale progression up there; have the NA AC bonus improved to 6 + 1/3 caster level and hand out the elemental resistances from Dragonscale Husk at the same rate as that ability (still basing it off of caster level).

I think I’ll make the husk automatic in draconic form (doesn’t count as armor at all) and optional in normal form just as the feat.




- What about the increased senses ?
Go with the progression you already have.

I’ll have to see what room I have left to squeeze them.




- What about flight progression ?
Start off with gliding, like you already do, and just give them Draconic Flight as a bonus invocation; have the Draconic Form explicitly state that, as long as you are in Draconic Form, you gain the benefits of Draconic Flight as an Extraordinary ability.

Good call #2.




- What will be the action cost and how will it decrease ?
Swift action to enter, Move action to leave. You don't need to decrease the action cost.

Seems a bit too easy at the lower levels, isn't it ?




As for "no DM will accept this", I disagree. You just got to word it the right way. You could just go ahead and say that you can activate the invocations as part of the same action as entering Draconic Form, limit it to invocations that have a 24 hour duration, and say that you lose the benefits of that activation of the invocation as soon as you lose Draconic Form.
Seems a bit pointless now, since draconic form already grants flight.




Other than the above, you still haven’t covered additional traits of the husk (you brought that one up, so I thought you might already have something in mind).

Amechra
2013-08-26, 06:52 PM
Sorry. You keep any natural weapons that you already have.

The basic point is that the only things that Draconic Form grants are stat bonuses, size increases, a bonus to AC, and (potentially) the ability to activate a buncha invocations at once.

Natural weapons? You'd get them independently, and have them in all forms.

That was a Dex penalty. Just like in the Dragonborn template. And your Dragonborn class feature. I, quite literally, used the exact same ability score bonus as you did.

Also, determining the appearance being campaign breaking? That's why I said you have to approve it with your DM; nothing I could set up would work better than that (considering that the DM knows their campaign and I do not.)

Your idea with Dragonscale Husk works.

You know what? That ability to activate some Invocations for free as part of entering Draconic Form? Just bundle up the flight with that. You could even just make some invocations for the senses and stick 'em in there.

nonsi
2013-08-30, 08:47 AM
Hi again Amechra.



Sorry. You keep any natural weapons that you already have.

I hope I misunderstood you, but if you mean to suggest that the class doesn't grant natural weapons, then that's a no go for me.
If I can’t make it able to eventually attack and look like a true dragon, then there’s no point to this class for me.
Therefore, I devised to following solution, and I’d like to see what you think of it . . .


First of all, I decided to keep my originally suggested number of invocations and breath effects, with the following expansion:
1. A DFD may trade a breath effect in order to gain an essence invocation, applied to the DFD’s breath weapon.
2. A DFD may choose any official non-shape non-essence invocation. I’m contemplating allowing essence invocations as well.
Note: They get only 8 over 20 levels, so I see no problem in letting them have some versatility.

Next, I decided to adopt your “Assume Draconic Form” idea and “fill in the blanks” with draconic senses enhancements.
Lastly, to prevent the DFD from totally stepping over purely melee/missile dudes, I guess medium BAB would suffice.

The level progression “Special” features are as follows:


level Special
================================================== ===
1 Assume Draconic Form (+10ft jump, Gliding, scales), Breath Weapon, Draconic Ancestry, Dragonscale Husk
2 Breath Effect
3 Draconic Senses (Lowlight Vision, Darkvision 60ft)
4 Assume Draconic Form (Cha +2, Flight, immune to frightful presence)
5 Breath Effect
6 Enlarged Metamorphosis (+1 size category)
7 Assume Draconic Form (Str +2, Effortless Flight, 2 Claws (primary), immune to magical sleep & paralysis)
8 Breath Effect
9 Draconic Senses (Lowlight Vision x3, Darkvision 90ft, Blindsense 30ft)
10 Assume Draconic Form (Con +2, Bite (secondary), Frightful Presence: attack)
11 Breath Effect
12 Enlarged Metamorphosis (+2 size category)
13 Assume Draconic Form (Str +2, Bite (primary), Frightful Presence: witness attack)
14 Breath Effect
15 Draconic Senses (Lowlight Vision x4, Darkvision 120ft, Blindsense 60ft)
16 Assume Draconic Form (Cha +2, true dragon form)
17 Breath Effect
18 Enlarged Metamorphosis (+3 size category)
19 Assume Draconic Form (Str +4, Frightful Presence: fly overhead)
20 Breath Effect

Assume Draconic Form (Ex)
A DFD’s primary ability and the one feature that defines this class is the ability to assume an ever-reliable form of a true dragon.
The benefits of Draconic Form are detailed in the table.
When assuming Draconic Form, a DFD gains +6 natural armor to their AC. Each 3 DFD levels increase this AC bonus by a cumulative +1. For each 2 points of DFD-associated nat. AC bonus, a character gains energy resistance +5 vs. fire and any damage type gained via Breath Effects.
Entering and leaving a draconic form is a standard action (improved to move action with an appropriate homebrew feat whose details are not crucial ATM).
A DFD may enter or leave draconic form as often as desired.

Breath Weapon (Su)
Same as the OP, but to simplify things and make them more DFA-compatible, all DFDs start with fiery breath weapon.

Draconic Ancestry (Ex)
All DFDs start with Dragontouched as bonus feat, even if they don’t meet the normal requirements.
In addition, they gain the following ability modifires: Str +2, Con +2, Dex -2.

Dragonscale Husk (Ex)
Same stats as draconic scales.
The husk, being natural armor doesn’t stack with donned armor.
Growing and shedding the husk works as given for the official Dragon Magic feat of the same name.

Breath Effect (Su)
May be swapped for applying an Eldritch Essence to your breath weapon.
Breath effects and eldritch essences may not be mixed.



This leaves breath weapon range increase and enhanced breath weapon damage out of the equation, because I just don't know where to put them.
I thought maybe levels 5/11/17, but I'm not sure







The basic point is that the only things that Draconic Form grants are stat bonuses, size increases, a bonus to AC, and (potentially) the ability to activate a buncha invocations at once.

You know what? That ability to activate some Invocations for free as part of entering Draconic Form? Just bundle up the flight with that. You could even just make some invocations for the senses and stick 'em in there.


I'd appreciate it if you put your finger on those and give some examples.

Amechra
2013-08-30, 10:03 AM
Whoops. I phrased that badly.

I meant that, while in Draconic Form, you don't lose any natural weapons.

You gain claws and stuff over the course of the class, which you have regardless of whether or not you are in Draconic Form.

Also, just an odd idea... have the range/size increases for your breath weapons happen with your Size Increases.

So, for example, whenever you grow a size category, the range and size of the breath weapon doubles.

nonsi
2013-08-30, 03:44 PM
You gain claws and stuff over the course of the class, which you have regardless of whether or not you are in Draconic Form.

Actually, I'm against that, because it will deprive a character of going about as their original race/species.
One can still use manufactured weapons when not transformed, and the husk can be generated/shed on a whim.



Also, just an odd idea... have the range/size increases for your breath weapons happen with your Size Increases.

So, for example, whenever you grow a size category, the range and size of the breath weapon doubles.

Good call.
I think that to capitalize on this idea, I'll make the ranges start at 15ft-cone/30ft-line and multiply with each size increase.
This seems both rewarding and not over the top to me.



Also, you mentioned something about enhancing the husk, but not in what way.

Amechra
2013-08-30, 05:43 PM
I'll edit in a longer thing in a moment, but just a quick idea before I grab a bit bite to eat:

Make the natural weapons part of the Dragonscale Husk. I've been kinda meaning to rewrite the thing, so it would give me an incentive to do so.

Claws come from scales forming on the fingertips, and so on and so forth.

nonsi
2013-08-31, 09:37 AM
I'll edit in a longer thing in a moment, but just a quick idea before I grab a bit bite to eat:

Make the natural weapons part of the Dragonscale Husk. I've been kinda meaning to rewrite the thing, so it would give me an incentive to do so.

Claws come from scales forming on the fingertips, and so on and so forth.

Actually, I'm starting to wonder if Dragonscale Husk feature has any value anymore, now that entering/leaving Draconic Form is a standard action (move action with a feat).
I believe I can make it 100% redundant if I just stated that a DFD can independently decrease any aspect of his Draconic Form without hindering any of the others.

Also, I'm thinking of granting 2 claw attacks at 4th level, secondary bite at 7th, primary bite at 10th and tail at 13th.

It seems to me that these changes, along with the range increase, will "round" the class nicely.

Just to Browse
2013-09-11, 03:43 PM
Amnoriath, you're just showing (again) how a character minmaxed to deal damage can deal a lot of damage. I can put that build on nonsi's warrior and do even more damage at a bigger range of levels because it actually has full BAB and I'm not ignoring 50% of the class features.

Formatting: Why are random things bolded?

Dragonborn: Right now, by RAW, you can be a dragonborn dragonborn and get +4 Con -4 Dex. You should probably write that dragonborns don't stack. This is a really tempting dip, so having a feat prereq (even though it's just for a base class) is a very good idea.

Breath Weapon: This is really crappy damage scaling. 1d8 at level 1 is useful against plagues of small animals, but as you start gaining levels even level-appropriate minions won't care. It needs something to make it stronger.

Invocations: You really need to make a list of bad things, instead of leaving it up to the DM. They're already probably pushing their boundaries by allowing this crazy-ass homebrew in--don't make their lives terrible.

Also I'm in with amechra (though I stopped reading your posts so maybe this has been resolved) in that I think eldritch essences should be allowed on breath weapons, especially since you can already get those Breath Effect feats and both appear to be of similar magnitude. There's stuff in there that lights people on fire--I want that as a dragon.

Scales: Yay piddly DR. The energy resistance is also really weak, and not dragon-like to me. I'd pitch the DR and resistance, since they're not adding anything interesting anyways, and add patch in immunity to his own breath weapon (couldn't see it in here, maybe I just missed it?) and perhaps a larger natural armor bonus.

Husk: I don't know this feat and don't have DrMag, so I'm mostly understanding what it does from the comments here. My suggestion is to just write out an ability that gets you +4 NatArmor if you hibernate for a few days, and treats you like you're in heavy armor for that time (heavy, not medium, because the different is basically null and "heavy" sounds cool. I think being awesome is worth it here). No need to have a second bonus to compare and increase.

Breath Effects: This confuses me, mostly because I don't have DrMag. Do you not get your elemental damage at level 1? Can't comment on availability without the source material.

Flight and Diving: Bites are piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning. You will always be wielding your mouth. Thus the current consideration for diving is moot.

Also diving with a huge axe sounds awesome, and I don't know why you would want to limit that.

Draconic Might: A move action? And 2d4 rounds of recharge time? nonsi, why do you hate America?

Greater Draconic Might: Is there a specific pattern you're following in your allocation of these attribute bonuses?

Transformation: This doesn't make sense to me from both a flavor perspective (why would you suddenly be able to do DRAGON POLYMORPH when all your prior training is to slowly, permanently, become a dragon?), and from a balance perspective (dragons are magically-inclined bruisers that only use breath weapons to strafe, yet they don't get spells and you can't turn into anything tankier than an adult at lv20), and from a player's standpoint (red DFAs are less useful than white DFAs. Morello pls stahp nerfing me).

Superior Draconic Might: I'm noticing Draconic Might abilities seem centered on not letting melee have nice things... Why is it that you can't hover and use your decent natural attack routine until the last 4 levels? Just let him be a dragon, come on man.

My personal preference would be to see a polymorpher and a mage as two different classes -- both take on characteristics of dragons slowly, but one breaths dragon magic and the other hulks out with scales and claws to rip fools apart.

nonsi
2013-09-11, 04:15 PM
Amnoriath, you're just showing (again) how a character minmaxed to deal damage can deal a lot of damage. I can put that build on nonsi's warrior and do even more damage at a bigger range of levels because it actually has full BAB and I'm not ignoring 50% of the class features.

Formatting: Why are random things bolded?

Dragonborn: Right now, by RAW, you can be a dragonborn dragonborn and get +4 Con -4 Dex. You should probably write that dragonborns don't stack. This is a really tempting dip, so having a feat prereq (even though it's just for a base class) is a very good idea.

Breath Weapon: This is really crappy damage scaling. 1d8 at level 1 is useful against plagues of small animals, but as you start gaining levels even level-appropriate minions won't care. It needs something to make it stronger.

Invocations: You really need to make a list of bad things, instead of leaving it up to the DM. They're already probably pushing their boundaries by allowing this crazy-ass homebrew in--don't make their lives terrible.

Also I'm in with amechra (though I stopped reading your posts so maybe this has been resolved) in that I think eldritch essences should be allowed on breath weapons, especially since you can already get those Breath Effect feats and both appear to be of similar magnitude. There's stuff in there that lights people on fire--I want that as a dragon.

Scales: Yay piddly DR. The energy resistance is also really weak, and not dragon-like to me. I'd pitch the DR and resistance, since they're not adding anything interesting anyways, and add patch in immunity to his own breath weapon (couldn't see it in here, maybe I just missed it?) and perhaps a larger natural armor bonus.

Husk: I don't know this feat and don't have DrMag, so I'm mostly understanding what it does from the comments here. My suggestion is to just write out an ability that gets you +4 NatArmor if you hibernate for a few days, and treats you like you're in heavy armor for that time (heavy, not medium, because the different is basically null and "heavy" sounds cool. I think being awesome is worth it here). No need to have a second bonus to compare and increase.

Breath Effects: This confuses me, mostly because I don't have DrMag. Do you not get your elemental damage at level 1? Can't comment on availability without the source material.

Flight and Diving: Bites are piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning. You will always be wielding your mouth. Thus the current consideration for diving is moot.

Also diving with a huge axe sounds awesome, and I don't know why you would want to limit that.

Draconic Might: A move action? And 2d4 rounds of recharge time? nonsi, why do you hate America?

Greater Draconic Might: Is there a specific pattern you're following in your allocation of these attribute bonuses?

Transformation: This doesn't make sense to me from both a flavor perspective (why would you suddenly be able to do DRAGON POLYMORPH when all your prior training is to slowly, permanently, become a dragon?), and from a balance perspective (dragons are magically-inclined bruisers that only use breath weapons to strafe, yet they don't get spells and you can't turn into anything tankier than an adult at lv20), and from a player's standpoint (red DFAs are less useful than white DFAs. Morello pls stahp nerfing me).

Superior Draconic Might: I'm noticing Draconic Might abilities seem centered on not letting melee have nice things... Why is it that you can't hover and use your decent natural attack routine until the last 4 levels? Just let him be a dragon, come on man.

My personal preference would be to see a polymorpher and a mage as two different classes -- both take on characteristics of dragons slowly, but one breaths dragon magic and the other hulks out with scales and claws to rip fools apart.


I'm feeling a bit silly now, because I was actually referring to this incarnation of the DFD (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302080), where I took most of what you said into account (hopefully to a reasonable degree of success).

Should've linked earlier. My Bad.

Oh well, better luck for me next time.

Just to Browse
2013-09-11, 05:25 PM
Spoilered for size.

http://ocobiega.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Poker_FaceCzyste.png