What lvl do you become a big deal?

[Pentagon]

Hey hey, I'm posting for two reasons really, firstly I'm DM'ing for a group of players new to the game and I want to be able to give a rough example of their power level in regards to the world around them.

It's a heavily Forgotten Realms campaign so they'll be running into lots of lovely people like the Harpers/Red Wizards etc.

What I'm looking for is some examples

Lvl 1: your a common and garden adventurer just kicked out of your mums attic.
Lvl 5: your an experienced adventurer with some decent experience and loot.
Lvl 25: Elminster himself is on your guest list, you probably have a city state under your command...

I mean I know that at 20+ your Epic Level, but telling a bunch of players you're "Epic Level" now... all that means to them is I have to dust off another source book to DM it.

This is a bit long winded but does anyone have any links to lvl by lvl examples or any idea's, especially in context of setting.

I really like the Avatar series of books and would consider having them being involved in the agenda of deities what level is the lowest this is really viable, story permitting ofc.

Many thanks to anyone who can understand this wall of text and even more to someone who can answer.

Pentagon

[Sylthia]

It really depends on the campaign setting. I think I've seen some where level 4 fighters are kings of nations. I've heard that Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli were around level 6 if that gives you any perspective. Although personally, that's a bit low level for how much influence they were able to have in their particular "campaign".

I try to follow, though this is pretty much up to the DM...
Level 1: Influence a small village (A mayor asks for your aid)
Level 5: Influence a decent sized city/region (A Lord/Count/etc asks for your aid)
Level 10: Influence countries (You are able to meet with kings)
Level 15: Influence entire realms (Emperors are depending on you)
Level 20: Influence the multi-verse (There are few adventurers who can accomplish what you can)

[JusticeZero]

Level 6, you are a major hero on par with any of the LotR group.
Level 11, you are a hero of mythic proportions.
Level 16, you have outgrown the prime material plane, and gods invite you to their parties.
Level 21, you invite gods to your parties.

[Deophaun]

Well, if it's Forgotten Realms, probably level 20+. That's about when you stop having to pick up Elminster's laundry.

Other campaign settings you'll matter much, much sooner. The description of the legend lore spell states that characters 11th level and higher are legendary figures. I'd guess something like "leader of a city state" would be around level 6 if you were so inclined and didn't want to adventure. By level 20, you should be more concerned about an entire plane of existence rather than a mere city.

[Pentagon]

Wough, the Three hunters were level 6!!! Wow, thanks for the response guys.

(Which Forum thread is best to discuss specific plot idea's for potential DM writers?, if you can message me to avoid it being off topic.. :( )

[Big Fau]

1st level characters are considered Journeymen in their class, 6th level characters are considered Masters. At 11th they are Legendary, and at 20th+ they are considered near-demigods (and capable of proving it).

[Sploggle1]

It really depends on the campaign setting. I think I've seen some where level 4 fighters are kings of nations. I've heard that Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli were around level 6 if that gives you any perspective. Although personally, that's a bit low level for how much influence they were able to have in their particular "campaign".

I try to follow, though this is pretty much up to the DM...
Level 1: Influence a small village (A mayor asks for your aid)
Level 5: Influence a decent sized city/region (A Lord/Count/etc asks for your aid)
Level 10: Influence countries (You are able to meet with kings)
Level 15: Influence entire realms (Emperors are depending on you)
Level 20: Influence the multi-verse (There are few adventurers who can accomplish what you can)

I agree with this one because once you pass ten or so you are a big deal. Depending on what you are playing as well, or if it is played right.

[Invader]

Forgotten Realms isn't an average setting. There are tons of important named characters with scores ranging into the teens so there's a higher curve. I'd say:

1-5 average adventurer
5-10 leader of moderately sized city or organization
10-15 leader of large city, major organization, or major player in the events of your country
15-20 leader of the largest cities and most powerful groups, great notoriety in a lot of circles
20+ you're a major player throughout the Realms

[PaintByBlood]

May basic guidelines I use, at least, are as follows.
Most normal folk are levels 1 - 4. These are people who don't have the Elite array, and are limited to NPC classes. The beginners are level 1, you reach level 2 after you've been at the job for a little while, maybe 6 months, level 3 comes after a couple years, and at level 4 you're a veteran compared to most of your peers.
Level 5 or 6 are skilled veterans, and usually have the Elite array to get that far. They're the leaders of the more mundane communities.
At levels 7-10, you're almost certainly someone's local hero, or the kind of wanderer that draws a lot of attention just by their presence. You can find a position of import at larger, more magically oriented towns, or cities.
At levels 11-15, you're a bit of a living legend. Especially near the end, you're an archmage, or you're the king's guard, or you're a master thief that is known the world over.
At levels 16-20, you're basically a demigod. People wouldn't believe you if you said that you were who you are, because it would be ludicrous. And besides, you're not bumping shoulders with level 1 commoners now, you're traveling in other planes, slaying demons, and on a first name basis with the leader of the largest of cities.

Roughly that. For example, 15 is the number I use for the archmagi or archpsions of arcane orders, or the current leader of an entire church, or the master martial artist of a renowned school, etc. It's the highest level that I still have a character just sitting around doing something for the community in that way, generally.

But, as far as being a big deal goes, I'd say level 6. Though, not much of an FR user.

[brujon]

May basic guidelines I use, at least, are as follows.
Most normal folk are levels 1 - 4. These are people who don't have the Elite array, and are limited to NPC classes. The beginners are level 1, you reach level 2 after you've been at the job for a little while, maybe 6 months, level 3 comes after a couple years, and at level 4 you're a veteran compared to most of your peers.
Level 5 or 6 are skilled veterans, and usually have the Elite array to get that far. They're the leaders of the more mundane communities.
At levels 7-10, you're almost certainly someone's local hero, or the kind of wanderer that draws a lot of attention just by their presence. You can find a position of import at larger, more magically oriented towns, or cities.
At levels 11-15, you're a bit of a living legend. Especially near the end, you're an archmage, or you're the king's guard, or you're a master thief that is known the world over.
At levels 16-20, you're basically a demigod. People wouldn't believe you if you said that you were who you are, because it would be ludicrous. And besides, you're not bumping shoulders with level 1 commoners now, you're traveling in other planes, slaying demons, and on a first name basis with the leader of the largest of cities.

Roughly that. For example, 15 is the number I use for the archmagi or archpsions of arcane orders, or the current leader of an entire church, or the master martial artist of a renowned school, etc. It's the highest level that I still have a character just sitting around doing something for the community in that way, generally.

But, as far as being a big deal goes, I'd say level 6. Though, not much of an FR user.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I agree wholeheartedly.

[Flickerdart]

Your average human peasant is lvl 1, has 10s and 11s in all ability scores, and no BAB. With an attack bonus of +0 (+1 if he's a militiaman with Weapon Focus) to hit for at best 1d8 damage, 12 AC (leather has no ACP so nonproficiency doesn't matter), and a pathetic 2 hit points (5 for guys with Toughness) he's not much good when defending his village. Such a commoner would struggle against the weakest skeleton or zombie, but their usefulness stops completely around the CR3 point when you have things like mephits, imps, or 4th level Astral Constructs, with both DR/magic and fast healing. Guys that can take down skeletons with ease are already impressive to a commoner, but guys who can wound these CR3 threats at all literally manage something the entire village together wouldn't be able to do.

3rd level heroes are still a big deal in larger towns and cities, but they go from unique to merely special. Ordinary folk would treat them the same way you'd treat skilled martial artists or veteran soldiers - with the respect due to someone both renowned and dangerous, but not the awe reserved for really important people.

The next hurdle isn't really related to combat skills. So you're a tough guy who walked over to the town from your village, and killed a few small-time devils. Big deal! Until you can meaningfully extend that power over a larger area than how far your feet can carry you, you don't really matter. This capability starts to kick in around level 9 with Teleport, but even access to an unusually fast mount can help speed this along. Once your options of engagement go from "whatever we can see right now" to "whatever threatens this duchy right now" then you've made it up there with superhero-type people who swoop in and save the day all over the place. You are now able to engage threats that the archer squads can't respond to quickly enough, making you a valuable (and therefore well-treated) asset to the sort of folks who have a lot of money.

After this, you're waiting until level 13 when Plane Shift and Greater Teleport mean you can literally go anywhere. Whatever your firepower is, you can now muster it across the planes, bringing back exotic treasure to whatever liege you choose to honour. But you don't really need to, given that you can be outside the jurisdiction of any military with the flick of a wrist.

This analysis of actual game mechanics gives us the following tiers of importance:
1-3: You're known at the village inn, church, and elder's hall as someone who can defend the village against threats it would stand no chance against.
4-8: You're important enough that people in the nearest city care about who you are and what you can do for them. You're better than most warriors you will meet, and the threats you deal with are something the military might mobilize against.
9-12: Your duke or king deals with you, either through proxies or directly. You are known in the courts as a dangerous enemy and valuable ally to have, and even with no land or social standing command greater respect than most rulers.
13-16: Your entire plane knows who you are. When you step onto another plane, you need not concern yourself with most of their inhabitants, for very few can match your power of planar travel.
17+: If you haven't already conquered something continent-sized for yourself, it's because you don't want to, or made your own plane.

[Jon_Dahl]

At levels 11-15, you're a bit of a living legend. Especially near the end, you're an archmage, or you're the king's guard, or you're a master thief that is known the world over.


You are absolutely right, for a fact (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm).

[Norin]

This should probably depend a bit on where and what the group has been working their trade.

Our group is now lvl 9, but has mostly been working in the underdark and little known dungeons in far off lands. That means, as of now, the general population of surface civilized faerun has not heard much of us yet.

But I agree with the above posters on a general basis.

[Khedrac]

Level 6, you are a major hero on par with any of the LotR group.
Level 11, you are a hero of mythic proportions.
Level 16, you have outgrown the prime material plane, and gods invite you to their parties.
Level 21, you invite gods to your parties.
This is a nice way of stating how the level-power balance works, howver it forgets one really important point...

The above is the basis of E6 and is worked out by looking at what can be achieved at these levels, but for it actually to work you have to take into account the power balance of the campaign world.

In the old Living Greyhawk campaign, characters (and this means both PC and NPC) above about 15th level were exceedingly rare. There are only a handful of epic characters resident in the campaign setting's portion of the map.

In the standard Forgotten Realms settings epic and near epic characters are actually very common. Shadowdale is a special place, but iirc it's a small town with at least 3 epic characters living there. Cities tend to have lots!

So looking back at the power list, in Greyhawk an 11th level character really is a hero of mythic proportions, fated to go on to great things.
In the Forgotten Realms he's a speed-bump.

That's "standard" Realms distribution - what you do in your game is your call, but it's best not to treat level 10 characters as special if most villages have a level 15 living in or near them.

[Invader]

I feel there are a lot of over estimations of your notoriety as far as Forgotten Realms goes. Keep in mind there are lvl 15 NPC's that have never been heard of anywhere outside of Waterdeep.

[Flickerdart]

This can be explained by the Elminster Effect - in FR, the amount of things someone does is inversely proportional to their level. There might be a ton of 15+ characters, but they do nothing so it's okay.

[JusticeZero]

The main issue I have with FR distribution is that when your characters are starting out, not only are they not impressive, but they are the people the village pities for being so weak. You have several levels of "Go deal with this problem.. the town wizard, who is not your party wizard, can't be bothered to deal with it because it's too easy."

[Slipperychicken]

1-3: You're pretty much normal. You can fight better than most people, but need either to pick your battles carefully, or hope the dice and DM are merciful. You're relatively poor; anything beyond the essentials is pushing it.

4-6: You can take down multiple guys in a fight, no problem, but too many will overwhelm you. You're also rich and can afford whatever nonmagic items you want, plus some magic items.

7-10: You can depopulate rooms full of soldiers without batting an eye, then sleep it off. You have quite large amounts of wealth and can afford pretty much anything you want, including stuff like Bags of Holding. You can also teleport around the world and fly. Enjoy.

11-15: You can fight demons and slay dragons like a boss. You laugh at the puny mortals who pushed you around at 1st-6th level. You would kill huge numbers of them without noticing, but their treasure drops are small enough that they aren't worth your time.

15-20: You're a superhero. You can do anything. Kill an army? check. Buy a kingdom? Check. Regenerate limbs? Check. Resurrect the dead? Check. Go to hell and back without dying? Check. Kill a god? Maybe. Anyway, mortal concerns are way beneath your CR.

21+: With epic spellcasting, you're a god. Otherwise, you're at the mercy of those who have it and know how to use it.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'd say that level 10 is where the big deal effect kicks in directly. That's the level where a properly optimized tier 1 can take over a country of their own power if they so chose. You can reliable be asked to take out an adult red dragon as your big boss battle. The type that would have enslaved a decent sized city.

[Talothorn]

The Alexandrian: D&D - Calibrating your expectations (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2)

This is one of the best D&D articles I have read about this subject. It is almost blasphemy to a lot of people, but I think it is amazing.

[Yora]

Generally, once you've reached 6th level, you're out of the league of the common farmers, cutpurses, and peasant soldiers. For these people, you've become pretty much untouchable and one of the people who are outstanding and dealing with stuff that is too big for normal people.
When 6th level characters start making trouble, you need some people of even higher level to deal with them. Normal people don't really have much of a chance against them, unless they have overwhelming numbers, suprise, and are willing to take heavy losses.

Though for Forgotten Realms, it is to be expected that every town and most major villages will have a small handful of locals who are tough and experienced enough to deal with such situations.

I would say once you made it to 11th level you have made it into the ranks of legendary heroes, as far as the normal folks are concerned. A 17th level character will whipe the floor with a 12th level character, but from the perspective of commoners and warrior-class soldiers, they are all action-movie heroes or comicbook superheroes. The kind of people who can only be harmed by one from their own but is simply invulnerable to anything common folk can throw at them.

[navar100]

If you want low level to represent being awesome, then you need NPCs to show it. NPCs need to react to the PCs as the extraordinary heroes you claim they are. Their heroic reputations must precede them to the cities they travel and not in a negative way of the local bad guy setting up a preemptive strike. A PC needs to be able to use social skills to reference their past deeds, and NPCs reacting to it.

Diplomacy: The Baron takes the party wizard's word there's a hobgoblin threat, reinforces city defenses, and provides aid when the party sets out on a strike mission against the hobgoblins.

Intimidate: The bandits realize they are threatening the Heroes who saved the city down yonder from the hobgoblins and run away fast before the party paladin smites them into next week.

Bluff: The party rogue, on his own downtime pilfering the black market but got caught, mentions his friends, the powerful wizard and holy paladin, know exactly where he his and will come looking if he doesn't return in time and woe be to those who try to stop them. The paladin would love nothing better than to shut down the black market, with his sword if need be. The rogue is set free without repercussions.

The PCs are "only" level 3.

[Slipperychicken]

Generally, once you've reached 6th level, you're out of the league of the common farmers, cutpurses, and peasant soldiers. For these people, you've become pretty much untouchable and one of the people who are outstanding and dealing with stuff that is too big for normal people.
When 6th level characters start making trouble, you need some people of even higher level to deal with them. Normal people don't really have much of a chance against them, unless they have overwhelming numbers, suprise, and are willing to take heavy losses.


If you can stack up the right advantages, a 6th level character should go down without too much trouble.


Heavy missile fire is one; just about anything will go down to enough crossbow bolts.

He might not be equipped to handle a mounted archer; stay out of range, plink him to death. If your health gets low, run away before he gets the kill, then come back later with friends. You don't even need feats for this; just the Ride skill and proficiency with bows.

You could have 4 guys (it might take 8. I don't remember if you can move diagonally through it) crowd around him with Tower Shields active so he can't leave his square. Then you have some guys with spears and ranged weapons whack him to death from outside his reach.

If you have an angry Mob (DMG2), that thing can pin him no problem, then kill with trample DoT. Takes 48 people to form one, although it's pretty much certain death if he gets engulfed by it.


Of course, spellcasters will always be more slippery than normal folk, but that's true at all levels. Thankfully their daily loadout is still limited at level 6.

[Krobar]

You know you've made it when literally ALL of Baator knows you by name and hates you personally.

[Erik Vale]

Again, it depends on the adventure. But it also depends on classes and choices, for example a level 16 fighter is a big deal, but less so compared to a level 12 wizard.

Homebrew also affects it, as does optimization. A mid level wizard using BoVD dark craft XP/GP [Or just PF or homebrewed no XP cost crafting] with golem crafting and planar binding [possibly summons sacrifice?], sprinkled with Incantrix, is the biggest non-epic cheese you will likely find despite being barely level 11.

Edit:

The Alexandrian: D&D - Calibrating your expectations (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2)

This is one of the best D&D articles I have read about this subject. It is almost blasphemy to a lot of people, but I think it is amazing.
Just read the article, sounds like a good analysis, I would take a look around to confirm it but I'm not the sort of person to overanalyse books/games etc, purely so I can believe it when the DM says everyone is of surprisingly high level.

[Slipperychicken]

You know you've made it when literally ALL of Baator knows you by name and hates you personally.

You know you've made it when you're the boogieman which Fiends tell their children about to scare them into staying in bed and eating their vegetables.



Doubly so if a Devil writes an Infernal children's book titled "There's a Paladin in My Closet!", and it mentions you by name as one of the greatest enemies of all Hell.

[SinsI]

Basically, you have to defeat two characters of your level to advance a level.
So you progress as 3^lvl.

To know if you are a big deal or not, take log_3 of size of the local community. If it is lesser or equal to your level, you are a big deal.

[Rosstin]

Yeah, it all has to do with how you relate to the community.

Some of my earlier campaigns took place in pretty high-magic settings, where there existed a number of NPC casters up to the high single-digit levels, who used magic to support their communities. Not until the players got beyond that were they a "big deal."