Yoda And Obi Wan v.s Darth Sidious

[ArlEammon]

So instead of attacking Anakin, for some reason both Yoda and Obi Wan end up fighting Darth Sidious. . . since Yoda is there to help him fight Sidious, could Obi survive? Also, would Darth Sidious be able to survive with Obi Wan fighting against him along side Yoda. As I watched the fight between Yoda and Sidious, I thought there were a couple of times when it looked like Yoda was going to kick his Sith butt.

[Hopeless]

So instead of attacking Anakin, for some reason both Yoda and Obi Wan end up fighting Darth Sidious. . . since Yoda is there to help him fight Sidious, could Obi survive? Also, would Darth Sidious be able to survive with Obi Wan fighting against him along side Yoda. As I watched the fight between Yoda and Sidious, I thought there were a couple of times when it looked like Yoda was going to kick his Sith butt.

Mace Windu and Yoda versus Sidious would be a more or less fair fight and we know a certain Sith Master wouldn't go for that!

Yoda and Obi-Wan vs Sidious would be a painful reminder of what happened in the first movie prequel, the reason they split to face each alone was to not get into each other's way...

[Fan]

Mace Windu and Yoda versus Sidious would be a more or less fair fight and we know a certain Sith Master wouldn't go for that!

Yoda and Obi-Wan vs Sidious would be a painful reminder of what happened in the first movie prequel, the reason they split to face each alone was to not get into each other's way...

Yoda V.S. Sidious was more of less even, and only ended in a victory for Sidious because of how much more powerful The Dark Side was at the time, and it clouded out Yoda's future sight.

The reason they split up was to attempt two separate goals.

Sidious was losing to Mace Windu straight up in RoTS, so I see no reason why the third and second best swordsmen in The Order couldn't take down Sidious.

Though I'd imagine it'd be Qui Gon 2.0 for Obi Wan, or perhaps Count Dooku 2.0 for Yoda.

[Tanuki Tales]

Mace Windu was stomping Sidious because Windu's technique specifically let him tap into a controlled amount of the Dark Side. So he was a mirror for anything that Sidious threw at him, on top of being one of the best swordsman in the Order.

[Zampanó]

Kenobi was not the third best swordsman in the order.

But more importantly, Yoda and Sidious operate on an entirely different level than does Kenobi. He got ragdolled by Dooku on the Invisible Hand and he would be just as casually dispatched by Sidious.

He'd just be a liability for Yoda, much like Harry was for Dumbledore in the Ministry Atrium (OotP).

[Traab]

Obiwan barely managed to take down the sith apprentice darth maul, and got his ass handed to him by tyrannas. Im fairly sure sideous would have obliterated him. At best he would count as a distraction maybe giving yoda room to work.

[Fan]

Obiwan barely managed to take down the sith apprentice darth maul, and got his ass handed to him by tyrannas. Im fairly sure sideous would have obliterated him. At best he would count as a distraction maybe giving yoda room to work.

Rectify.

>As a Padawn he took down Darth Maul Narrowly.

>Dooku was Yoda's apprentice, and was further trained by Sidious. Dooku was also able to saber duel with Yoda and not get 100% schooled.

So.. yeah, none of that exactly says that Obi Wan would be useless in the fight against Sidious.

[Hopeless]

Distraction?

Yes, but not for Yoda's benefit, about the most he could do was slow down the arrival of the clone troopers and even that won't be for long.

[Zaydos]

Obi-Wan is sometimes listed as the third best lightsaber wielder in the Jedi Order if I remember my StarWars d20 books properly (friend borrowed them and never gave them back :smallannoyed:), and supposed to be the greatest master of the most defensive style. More importantly we can compare his skill to Anakin's which was in Episode II equated with being almost up to Yoda's, and in Episode III was shown to be greater than Dooku's. Obi-Wan's skill was enough to defeat Anakin one on one, despite Anakin having the most powerful connection to the Force ever. Obi-Wan had gotten better than Anakin (though in the 20 years to come his skills went a bit to rust), so Obi-Wan as he was in Episode III was the 3rd best Jedi swordsman.

What I've seen brought up against Obi-Wan is:
He only narrowly beat Darth Maul, who was merely an apprentice.
He lost to Dooku.

Counterpoints are:
The first was 12 years ago he has demonstrably gotten better in the intervening period, and Darth Maul was specially trained for the sole purpose of fighting Jedi and good enough to kill one of the greatest Jedi Masters of the period (Qui-Gon)
Dooku was a renown fencer among the Jedi, the best in the style of lightsaber combat designed to fight other lightsabers. In the 2 years since that battle Anakin improved enough to beat Dooku in combat and Obi-Wan improved enough to beat Anakin.

So saying he was shown to be roughly on the same level as people who were good enough to be a personal threat to Sidious isn't actually saying he'd be in Yoda's way. Obi-Wan alone couldn't beat Sidious, but as closely matched as Sidious and Yoda were it wouldn't take much to tip the scales in Yoda's favor.

[jedipilot24]

This would make for an interesting Infinities:
Yoda and Obi-Wan kill Sidious.
Padme gives birth on Coruscant and survives.
Sano Sauro (Palpy's deputy) takes over the Empire and uses Palpy's death as justification to continue the Jedi Purge. Ironically, without Palpy, the Empire is more stable and has an actual method of Imperial Succession.
And as for Anakin, well his fears about Padme dying have just been proven false so maybe seeing his wife and twin children alive would be enough to bring him back from the Dark Side.

[Fjolnir]

He is specifically chosen to take on General Grievous because his mastery of the Lightsaber ONLY covers Form III, which is the most defensive of the forms, he is well suited to stopping an aggressive duelist and could possibly have been a factor in the fight vs D.S. but only if he can get close, and that was something that yoda wasn't doing once they hit the senate...

[SmartAlec]

Obi-Wan's great, but you can see what happens in the fight between Yoda and Sidious. They lightsaber-fight for a while, and then Sidious decides to take it up a notch by using the Force in extreme ways.

We don't get to see what happened between the two of them fighting on the central podium and then a big telekinetic fight using senate seats, but the looks of Yoda's face say that he's having trouble figuring out how to fight back.

Kenobi is superb at what he does, no question, but he's just not on that kind of insane force-power battle wavelength. Sidious is a beast.

[Clyner]

In my opinion, it basically boils down to Sidious being reliant on his overwhelming force in battle (the battle with the maul brothers stands out, but this happens in movies III and VI as well) while Obi-wan and Yoda have excellent teamwork and have much more experience in duels. Generally, tactics > force and i think it would play out more or less in the Jedi's favor

[SmartAlec]

I don't know, Sidious's tactical awareness seems better than Yoda's in that fight. Watching it again, Sidious's moves are pretty smart.

1) Hit Yoda with lightning, try to take him out with one shot. That fails.

2) Attempt retreat. Yoda blocks escape.

3) Saber duel. Maneuver opponent onto ground that restricts his movement (Senate rostrum), thus making Ataru saber style difficult. Yoda continues to press attack.

4) Get some distance and maintain it using telekinesis, employ force powers liberally. Yoda weathers the storm.

5) Disarm opponent when he tries to get close. Burn him down with lightning.

That's some pretty sensible stuff, more or less.

[hamishspence]

Obiwan barely managed to take down the sith apprentice darth maul, and got his ass handed to him by tyrannas. Im fairly sure sideous would have obliterated him. At best he would count as a distraction maybe giving yoda room to work.

Yoda does say to Obi-Wan in the RoTS novel:

"Strong enough to fight this Lord Sidious, you will never be. Die you will, and painfully."

[Clyner]

I don't know, Sidious's tactical awareness seems better than Yoda's in that fight. Watching it again, Sidious's moves are pretty smart.

1) Hit Yoda with lightning, try to take him out with one shot. That fails.
2) Attempt retreat. Yoda blocks escape.
3) Saber duel. Maneuver opponent onto ground that restricts his movement (Senate rostrum), thus making Ataru saber style difficult. Yoda continues to press attack.
4) Get some distance and maintain it using telekinesis, employ force powers liberally. Yoda weathers the storm.
5) Disarm opponent when he tries to get close. Burn him down with lightning.

That's some pretty sensible stuff, more or less.


Have to disagree, Lightning's a terrible move against someone who can block and reflect it. As for the moving the duel to the senate, I saw it as a thematic symbol of the Jedi losing Coruscant (They started the fight in Sidious's office and ended up on the senate area)

That said, i think your points are excellent and that we're simply reading the scenes differently based on how we understand the character. I've always seen Sidious as a character who applies overwhelming force whenever possible while minimizing risks. His whole response to the earlier jedi arrest attempt was "Kill them directly myself" it doesn't make sense for that response to change for a second (arguably weaker) arrest attempt.

[McStabbington]

It's hard to tell, because somewhere between the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy, the relative power of a Jedi evolved from having a deeper connection to the Force to being able to twirl faster while being CGI'ed. Which is problematic because just about every Jedi in those films more or less twirled in the same way and at the same speed, making it very, very difficult for viewers to figure out, absent the characters telling us, which one has the greater power.

Honestly though, I would say that Yoda and Obi Won would have curbstomped Sidious. Kenobi is by all accounts a darn fine swordsman, and the reason Dooku beat him is less a case of powers than it is that he was a master of Form II, which is specifically designed as a dueling style against other lightsaber wielders, where Form III is more of a generalized defensive style that makes you difficult to hit with both sabers and blasters. And that's not really a problem, because Sidious canonically didn't know Form II; he knew Form IV, which an aggressive attack style. The reason why Kenobi didn't go had less to do with a sensible, in-universe reason than because the hand of Lucas reached out and snagged the dude away so that he could have two lightsaber duels going on at the same time in the climax. I'm not going to sugarcoat what happened in the prequels or invent a reason to explain it: things happened because Lucas, the storyteller, needed them to happen, not because there was a smart in-universe explanation.

[Traab]

I wish I could argue that, but it really made no freaking sense. Have them both team up to stomp the emp, then go out together and round up annie. Even if Obiwan served no purpose in the emp fight than to buy yoda breathing space and room to maneuver from time to time, it would have likely been enough to pull off the win. Obiwan is the defensive blocker, while yoda bounces all over the place like a 900 year old superball looking for openings. That could have worked too.

"The plan here is. Stand firm, attack do not, defend only you must. Attack shall I, weaknesses and openings I shall strike."

"Sounds like a good plan you 2 foot tall ancient muppet, lets do this! LEROOOOOY!!! JEEEENKINS!!!!!"

[Zaydos]

I always chocked it up to Yoda having grown over-reliant on the Force to guide his decisions and the Dark Side clouding his prescience so much that he was doing stupid stuff because of it, hence his warnings to Luke against relying on it in Episode V despite the fact that he constantly relies on it in Episodes I, II, and III.

[jedipilot24]

I always chocked it up to Yoda having grown over-reliant on the Force to guide his decisions and the Dark Side clouding his prescience so much that he was doing stupid stuff because of it, hence his warnings to Luke against relying on it in Episode V despite the fact that he constantly relies on it in Episodes I, II, and III.

Hmm, indeed; though Luke fell prey to that same trap for a while in the EU, he finally figured it out in the Hand of Thrawn duology.

[hamishspence]

Which resulted in complaints from people who thought Luke wasn't overusing the Force & was supposed to use it that much. Since HoT there's been a tendency for him to use it a lot again.