Anti-anti-magic field shenanigans

[ryu]

I believe we were at the point of discussing schrodingers AMF and using a combination of invoke magic and heighten spell to allow plane shifting to the ethereal plane to allow casting of genisis.

[bekeleven]

Everyone arguing with you is incorrect. AMF doesn't affect instantaneous conjurations, it's literally right there in the description.


The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.

Plane shift is an instantaneous conjuration. Oh look, so are orb spells. Guess you can still build a mailman.

[georgie_leech]

Nah, already edited my response into the last thread; alas, my Ninja Editing Squad needs more work. Suffice to say, I can find no argument that counters Shadow Walk. Blasted Killer Gnomes.

[ryu]

I'm pretty sure the general ruling is that the effect is stopped but you still can't cast if you're in one. If however that isn't true I'm going to start laughing hysterically.

Edit: You can at least be proud you added on an extra three iterations of plan attempt to the plan.

[SiuiS]

Everyone arguing with you is incorrect. AMF doesn't affect instantaneous conjurations, it's literally right there in the description.



Plane shift is an instantaneous conjuration. Oh look, so are orb spells. Guess you can still build a mailman.

Does not an anitmagic field prevent the casting of the spell, however?
You could be outside of it and shoot an effect created by conjuration into it, but you could not target someone in it and you could not cast while yourself within it.

[Flickerdart]

I'm pretty sure the general ruling is that the effect is stopped but you still can't cast if you're in one. If however that isn't true I'm going to start laughing hysterically.

Edit: You can at least be proud you added on an extra three iterations of plan attempt to the plan.
I'm not seeing anything within the text of AMF that suggests it stops the casting of spells. It merely suppresses their effects (but as we already established, instantaneous conjurations are immune).

[ryu]

It's okay guys. This thing just kinda got resolved way sooner than I thought it would by shadow walk being a thing that exists. Everyone who argued with me should be proud that they added three new attempts to the plan and one brilliant guy actually thought of the final link in the chain before I could.

[georgie_leech]

I'm pretty sure the general ruling is that the effect is stopped but you still can't cast if you're in one. If however that isn't true I'm going to start laughing hysterically.

That interpretation honestly never occurred to me either; posted in the Simple Q&A Thread, because that's a really weird but difficult to dismiss interpretation.


Edit: You can at least be proud you added on an extra three iterations of plan attempt to the plan.

Nah, was never about pride. I like arguing back and forth with "gotcha's!" but an actual Game is a terrible time to argue rules minutiae. Thanks for an enjoyable evening.

[eggynack]

I'm not seeing anything within the text of AMF that suggests it stops the casting of spells. It merely suppresses their effects (but as we already established, instantaneous conjurations are immune).
I dunno if there's another source for this, but the Rules Compendium states, "If an instantaneous spell is entirely suppressed, that spell is effectively canceled. (It’s suppressed, and its duration instantaneously expires.) An instantaneous area spell is only entirely suppressed and effectively canceled if its point of origin is within the antimagic area." It's on page 11. I'm aware that the Rules Compendium is occasionally contentious, but it's certainly a rule that exists in some form.

[ryu]

Oh this is amazing. Does anyone have more solid support for this than the compendium? If not I'm totally going to start laughing in the most hysterical ways.

[Flickerdart]

I dunno if there's another source for this, but the Rules Compendium states, "If an instantaneous spell is entirely suppressed, that spell is effectively canceled. (It’s suppressed, and its duration instantaneously expires.) An instantaneous area spell is only entirely suppressed and effectively canceled if its point of origin is within the antimagic area." It's on page 11. I'm aware that the Rules Compendium is occasionally contentious, but it's certainly a rule that exists in some form.
Given that instantaneous conjurations aren't suppressed, cancelled isn't a rules term, and none of the text you quoted even mentions casting, I'm not sure this really changes anything.

[georgie_leech]

I've got to admit, I can't find anything to suggest it isn't: by RAW, Spell-casting itself isn't actually a Spell, Spell-like Ability, or Supernatural effect; it's magical, but the act of spell casting is itself not actually an effect so isn't effected by the second paragraph. The effect would normally be supressed, but Instantaneous Conjurations are immune (the intention was almost certainly pre-existing IC's, but that's not what it says). Invoke Magic suggests that it was intended that you couldn't cast at all in an AMF, but we all know how much intent matters to RAW.

Is this in the Dysfunctional Thread yet?

[eggynack]

Given that instantaneous conjurations aren't suppressed, cancelled isn't a rules term, and none of the text you quoted even mentions casting, I'm not sure this really changes anything.
Leaving aside the odd cancelled issue, the wording's description of a "point of origin" means that the actual casting of the spell is an irrelevant aspect. If the instantaneous spell's origin could be traced back to a point within the AMF, that spell would be "cancelled," regardless of the casting of it. I suppose there are reasons that the overall rule could be considered contentious, but it doesn't seem like an entirely meaningless thing to me.

[Flickerdart]

Leaving aside the odd cancelled issue, the wording's description of a "point of origin" means that the actual casting of the spell is an irrelevant aspect. If the instantaneous spell's origin could be traced back to a point within the AMF, that spell would be "cancelled," regardless of the casting of it. I suppose there are reasons that the overall rule could be considered contentious, but it doesn't seem like an entirely meaningless thing to me.
"Point of origin" refers to the point from which an AoE spreads, designated by the caster. This is a keyword that is mentioned several times all over the Spell Descriptions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm) page. It is unambiguously distinct from the location of the caster.

[eggynack]

"Point of origin" refers to the point from which an AoE spreads, designated by the caster. This is a keyword that is mentioned several times all over the Spell Descriptions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm) page. It is unambiguously distinct from the location of the caster.
Huh. I guess you're right. If all that is true, then that quote actually supports the other side, because, " An instantaneous area spell is only entirely suppressed and effectively canceled if its point of origin is within the antimagic area." It's a pretty odd thing right there.

[ryu]

Everything is wonderful. This is fantastic. Random worthless objects in my general vicinity are transforming into free candy and cold soda even as I type this.

[Chronos]

So, is this like one of those books or movies where the story starts in the middle of the action, and then it goes back and shows how that situation came up? Because this whole thread is kind of just hanging in nowhere.

[Maginomicon]

cancelled isn't a rules term "Cancel" is mentioned three times in the description of antimagic in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#antimagic).

[unseenmage]

So, is this like one of those books or movies where the story starts in the middle of the action, and then it goes back and shows how that situation came up? Because this whole thread is kind of just hanging in nowhere.

Seconding.
I believe an explanation of what's what with this idea in the OP could be helpful to the rest of us comprehending what's so great here.

From what I've gathered so far, Antimagic Field has possibly been proven to be even more useless than usual once again.

Making Planar Shepherd, Null Magic Trait Genesis shenanigans even more necessary as a DM tool to shut down that pesky "'ability for the PCS to solve problems with magic'.

[Flickerdart]

"Cancel" is mentioned three times in the description of antimagic in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#antimagic).
And at no point does that entry mention "spells cannot be cast in an AMF", either.

[eggynack]

So, is this like one of those books or movies where the story starts in the middle of the action, and then it goes back and shows how that situation came up? Because this whole thread is kind of just hanging in nowhere.
This is a continuation of an argument that started on post 355 in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298215&page=12).It goes on for about three pages, and then it got split into a new thread.

[Snowbluff]

Um, casting a Spell is a Spell because that's what a spell is. I am not sure how using a spell is not a spell but if it's not a spell than we have bigger implications that we need to handle.

[georgie_leech]

Um, casting a Spell is a Spell because that's what a spell is. I am not sure how using a spell is not a spell but if it's not a spell than we have bigger implications that we need to handle.

No, nowhere in any of the books will you find a Spell named "Casting a Spell." Casting is how you cause a spell to come into an effect, but the waving arms, magic words, and swallowing a pearl or whatever aren't a spell in and of themselves.

[Snowbluff]

No, nowhere in any of the books will you find a Spell named "Casting a Spell." Casting is how you cause a spell to come into an effect, but the waving arms, magic words, and swallowing a pearl or whatever aren't a spell in and of themselves.

The issue how does an AMF function at all? If a person has access to magic while he is in an AMF, it does not.

[georgie_leech]

The issue how does an AMF function at all? If a person has access to magic while he is in an AMF, it does not.

By suppressing the spell itself after it is cast (except, apparently, Instantaneous Conjurations :smallconfused:).

[Flickerdart]

The issue how does an AMF function at all? If a person has access to magic while he is in an AMF, it does not.
That was very nearly a sentence.

The point is that casting a spell and the spell effect are two separate things. AMF only makes provisions for the effect, so it doesn't actually stop you from casting inside of it by RAW.

[lesser_minion]

And at no point does that entry mention "spells cannot be cast in an AMF", either.

There is no prohibition on casting spells within an antimagic field. The difficulty is making them useful. The reason why it's ruled that you cannot cast instantaneous conjurations while in an AMF is this:


The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.

This is the clause from the anti-magic field spell description that makes instantaneous conjurations immune. It actually doesn't grant immunity to instantaneous conjurations: it expressly distinguishes between spell and effect, and only grants immunity to the effect.

So, while you can 'cast' an instantaneous conjuration while in an antimagic field, it actually will be suppressed. This prevents the thing to be conjured (which would be immune) from appearing, and then the spell's duration expires. Thus, the spell simply does nothing, and you've wasted your spell slot and action.

[georgie_leech]

You will note that it actually doesn't grant immunity to instantaneous conjurations: it expressly distinguishes between spell and effect, and only grants immunity to the effect, reinforcing this by the given reasoning that "the conjuration itself is no longer in effect".

So, if you cast an instantaneous conjuration while in an antimagic field, it will be suppressed. This prevents the thing to be conjured (which would be immune) from appearing, and then the spell's duration expires. Thus, the spell simply does nothing, and you've wasted your spell slot and action.

That works, if the process is (Spell is cast)->(Spell comes into effect)->(Effects of spell occur). Is there any rules support for that middle step? I've always seen it interpreted it as (Spell is cast)->(Effects of spell occur).

[Snowbluff]

Spell is the effect. You don't cast a 'Spell'. 'Spell' refers the result. The problem is that the AMF follow NO logic.

Now:

1) I cast Orb o' Acid in an AMF.

2) Orb is generated through magic. (Which shouldn't happen in an AMF.)

3) Orb is given momentum and leave the AMF.

For an evocation spell, like fire ball. Following the logic of above, it plays out like this.

1) I cast Fireball.

2) The inside of the AMF explodes though magic, even if I targeted inside the AMF. (Which shouldn't happen in an AMF.)

You can only conclude that every sentence of the AMF spell is false. Then the DM has to slap you with the book and claim that the caster is a part of the spell cast in order to fix this (which seems to be the intent of the writers.)

[Gavinfoxx]

I don't know if this has been linked in this thread, but have you seen this?

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8843.0

I thought it was always, 'you can cast an instantaneous conjuration from the outside into an antimagic field or null magic zone.'

[Snowbluff]

I don't know if this has been linked in this thread, but have you seen this?

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8843.0

You know, I had not noticed that Simulacra where instantaneous. I haven't had anyone tried to remove one on the few times I've used the spell, so I guess I would not have noticed.
[quote]
I thought it was always, 'you can cast an instantaneous conjuration from the outside into an antimagic field or null magic zone.'

I had assumed so, as well.

EDIT: Sidenote. The Maneuver Iron Heart Surge does remove AMF. The maneuver is frequently misread or the definitions of the words in the text are frequently ignored, but AMF is a spell with a duration in rounds.

[Segev]

...huh. Well, the one time I sacrificed a simulacrum by having him inside a forcecage with a BBEG we didn't want to deal with and drop an AMF, it turns out he would have not turned into a pile of slush until the BBEG pounded on him, I guess! (We played it as the simulacrum slushifying as soon as the AMF went up, since it's a magical effect and we figured AMF would shut it down.)



Is this thread's conclusion, then, that a Conjuror inside his own AMF can still fling Orbs and other such spells with impunity?

[ryu]

That seems to be the plan.

[Snowbluff]

Is this thread's conclusion, then, that a Conjuror inside his own AMF can still fling Orbs and other such spells with impunity?

According to this thread, you can cast any spell while inside an AMF, just as long as the effect occurs outside of the field.

As a DM, I would include advice on what to add to the spell to play it more fair. Like "You can't cast in an AMF."

Finally, I am not sure if you'll ever reach a level to plane shift without buffs or the ability to use 90% of the spells in the game.

[ryu]

WBL mancy tactics to purchase entirely too many non-magic minions. We were also under the assumption that the dm was making this world instead of banning things so leadership is on the table. Also a spellcaster can be entirely serviceable using only instantaneous conjurations for the first few levels.

[Snowbluff]

WBL mancy tactics to purchase entirely too many non-magic minions. We were also under the assumption that the dm was making this world instead of banning things so leadership is on the table. Also a spellcaster can be entirely serviceable using only instantaneous conjurations for the first few levels.

Well, the first time a dragon or something with decent scores shows up, everyone minion is dead. And you can't Wibblemancy when magic items don't work. Minions go under regular money stuff.

[Gavinfoxx]

Is this thread's conclusion, then, that a Conjuror inside his own AMF can still fling Orbs and other such spells with impunity?

That's not my conclusion... unless he can shape the anti magic field to not affect his 5' square...

[ryu]

With enough money the game shatters dragons be damned. There are also less efficient but possible methods of getting all of the money without magic. That and if you force the killing of a dragon I'll just spend a few months preparing and training minions to use good old fashioned medieval siege weaponry. It's more likely to succeed than having the mundanes walk in and try to sword at it anyway.

[unseenmage]

Y'know, between Antimagic Fields not stopping casting and Magic Immunity not making golems immune to magic I swear they should both be called Misnamed-Magic Field and Misnamed Immunity respectively.

[Snowbluff]

Ryu, you names means dragon. I think dragons are not something you are aware of.

A single dragon can spend a day targeting you and just diving/Flyby attacking your minions until each one is dead. If it is a smaller one with levels, it's much stronger than that.


Y'know, between Antimagic Fields not stopping casting and Magic Immunity not making golems immune to magic I swear they should both be called Misnamed-Magic Field and Misnamed Immunity respectively.

I was going to say something similiar, but I couldn't find a good mock-name

Still not convinced that it does not stop casting (Spells are their own action type), but W/E.

[bekeleven]

Still not convinced that it does not stop casting (Spells are their own action type), but W/E.
I think we can all mostly agree that the RC text was intended to stop casting but never quite said it right.

[ryu]

A dragon that is AWARE of you can do those things yes. Divination isn't a thing until someone completes The Plan though and unless this thing is making regular raids on small woodland villages near its territory it has no reason to know that I exist let alone I'm planning to kill it. Unless you'd like to claim that dragons ruin every attempt that has ever been made or will ever be made to create an army the only variable is to not make this all blatantly visible to possible enemy town factions.

[Snowbluff]

A dragon that is AWARE of you can do those things yes. Divination isn't a thing until someone completes The Plan though and unless this thing is making regular raids on small woodland villages near its territory it has no reason to know that I exist let alone I'm planning to kill it. Unless you'd like to claim that dragons ruin every attempt that has ever been made or will ever be made to create an army the only variable is to not make this all blatantly visible to possible enemy town factions.

Um... you are forgetting this is A GAME. The sort of dragon I described is possible (CR-wise)before you become a high enough level to escape.

The DM would be well within his rights to have a Dark Black Dragon catch wind of the money you've been tossing around and decide he wants a cut. Slaughtering a bunch of peasants at night would be a cakewalk for him. I'd say it'd be highly improbable you are not ambushed by at least one such creature as you level.

[ryu]

Except instantaneous duration conjurations still function fine unless the dm is changing rules rather than just making this silly setting. We have access to teleport. You're dragon catches wind of the first scheme? Fine start the next one further away funded by the same money shenanigans. It's also basically impossible to tell where we went if we went far enough because divination isn't a thing. Come to think of it how is the dragon tracking the day to day trades of gold without divination? Is it just regularly watching from overhead randomly? Oh maybe it found some commoners to hire as spies who wouldn't simply run as far and as fast as possible from an evil dragon? Do enlighten me.

[Snowbluff]

Um... if you had access to Teleport, you would have Plane Shift. You are being ambushed before that happens. You are pretty much gone after that point.

Adventurers have a level of notoriety, especially if they've hired an army. Ignoring that, how any NPC spies behave is actually entirely up to the DM, so you can't rule those out. If you can hire allies, why isn't it able to do likewise? It could even be part of a league of evil or something.

Unless we follow your argument, in which case the CR appropriate encounters are not able to find you, then you can't find any yourself.

You are now enlightened. Your situation under a malevolent DM in this situation is pretty bad.

[ryu]

Properly CRed encounters finding me in a state of ambush was a stated impediment to the plan. If they can't find me I can just throw various forms of minion at random mooks in the woods until I level. Individual encounters aren't worth much this way but they can happen hilariously often. If on the other hand the dragon CAN find me dimension door to underground cavern cleared, secluded, and locked as securely as possible within 400 feet and hide out for the night. The next day have at least two prepared and check on the state of affairs just in case the commoners lived and the scheme can continue. If they didn't hike to the next small village with anyone who survived and at least one minion I was able to personally save as per the door spell.

[Snowbluff]

So you are going to spend ALL of your time over a bunker you build yourself? And then let all of your minions die, destroying your leadership score and forcing you to restart the whole process, but now with a risk of a dragon trailing you?

So you'll never fight anything. I don't think being absent from fights grants XP.

[ryu]

Not absent from fights. Calmly observing them from in the middle of the horde. I can also cast multiple doors in a day to extend the safe range of hunting expeditions. As for having to start the entire process over again it's a system where I advance in xp over time and have no feasible chance of failure. It can take as long as it wants. death is a bigger setback than simply being delayed a week or two.

[Snowbluff]

But if you are not participating in the fight, I doubt you will be granted XP.

Unless you are sitting your bunker the whole time, you are at risk of being chow for a dragon. The people you send out are still vulnerable as well. I am not sure how long people would accept payment from a guy who spends his time getting hiree's slaughtered. If the DM is being particularly vindictive, he would even make it clear to the NPCs that it is you who is allowing everyone getting killed.

At the level you are able to cast Dimension Door, there would be up to 5 of these dragons. And these are just dragons. I haven't even started talking about other creatures that would be incredibly hard to kill, like Unbodied.

[Chronos]

Regardless of whether it's the actual meaning of the RAW or a houserule, I think it would be eminently sensible for any DM to rule that it's impossible to cast spells inside an AMF. Such a simple ruling would resolve the argument cleanly, and would have the pleasant side effect of nerfing spellcasters a bit.

[unseenmage]

Regardless of whether it's the actual meaning of the RAW or a houserule, I think it would be eminently sensible for any DM to rule that it's impossible to cast spells inside an AMF. Such a simple ruling would resolve the argument cleanly, and would have the pleasant side effect of nerfing spellcasters a bit.

I want to agree but that AMFs are so small. One move action and you're free of the no spell zone. So no nerf there.

Additionally it would also only nerf the spellcaster who got his AMF spell off first. The end result of which is just another form of rocket tag. So no nerf there either.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like for the AMF to actually act like and do what it's name implies. I just disagree with the idea that ruling in the quoted way would be that much better. Sorry.

[Chronos]

Well, I never said it would be a big nerf. And it at least stops a mailman from casting AMF on himself, and the like.

[unseenmage]

Well, I never said it would be a big nerf. And it at least stops a mailman from casting AMF on himself, and the like.

Ah, a good point. I commented without considering the context of the conversation. My apologies.

[ryu]

But if you are not participating in the fight, I doubt you will be granted XP.

Unless you are sitting your bunker the whole time, you are at risk of being chow for a dragon. The people you send out are still vulnerable as well. I am not sure how long people would accept payment from a guy who spends his time getting hiree's slaughtered. If the DM is being particularly vindictive, he would even make it clear to the NPCs that it is you who is allowing everyone getting killed.

At the level you are able to cast Dimension Door, there would be up to 5 of these dragons. And these are just dragons. I haven't even started talking about other creatures that would be incredibly hard to kill, like Unbodied.

Oh I'm never at risk unless the dragon is getting into range before it's spotted. Is it flying within breath weapon range at all times?

Your complaints about group morale and such are only houserules. Inventing new conditions in the rules is a stated victory condition of rustling the dm's jimmies. Of course this is only under the assumption that your dragon can't survive a few hundred arrows per round it's in possible hit range. Assuming I only hit on natural twenties it doesn't have a sure win against a hunting party of archer minions.

As for claiming that I'm not participating I very clearly am. I went so far as to be the one organizing the troops and even fired a shot that likely missed at every encounter with a hand crossbow. This isn't a hard limitation to say no to even considering it is house ruled.

[Snowbluff]

Oh I'm never at risk unless the dragon is getting into range before it's spotted. Is it flying within breath weapon range at all times? It's flying under the shadows of clouds, unseen to mortal eyes.

They are Dark, so most of the attacks are at night where they can not be seen. They spend most of their time doing flyby attacks around your location. By day, they lie in wait to ambush stragglers.


Your complaints about group morale and such are only houserules. Inventing new conditions in the rules is a stated victory condition of rustling the dm's jimmies. Group morale is somethign you invented when you complained about the Dragons using similiar resources to locate you.


Of course this is only under the assumption that your dragon can't survive a few hundred arrows per round it's in possible hit range. Assuming I only hit on natural twenties it doesn't have a sure win against a hunting party of archer minions.
DR 5/magic against a max of 1d8+2 that only hits on a nat 20 and never confirms is a possible encounter.


As for claiming that I'm not participating I very clearly am. I went so far as to be the one organizing the troops and even fired a shot that likely missed at every encounter with a hand crossbow. This isn't a hard limitation to say no to even considering it is house ruled.
Acceptable.

[ryu]

And I then waved caring about group morale by allowing the scenario where the dragon finds me.

As for the DR I don't much care about it. Last I checked DR couldn't lower damage to less than one and hundreds are firing per round the dragon gets. Statistically that's somewhere near total number of minions divided by twenty assuming now extra attacks or relevant feats per round. This is if the DM is willing to roll every dice individually rather than accepting statistical averages. Every six or higher rolled is simply a bonus. Further I'm not relying on actually winning that fight. If that dragon doesn't die it's hurt and has to rely on natural healing before it can come again if it's okay with taking so much punishment again for gold that always disappears long before the dragon could actually find it.

[Snowbluff]

And I then waved caring about group morale by allowing the scenario where the dragon finds me. Which there was no question the dragons would find you. You describe below the large number of minions you have.



As for the DR I don't much care about it. Last I checked DR couldn't lower damage to less than one and hundreds are firing per round the dragon gets. Statistically that's somewhere near total number of minions divided by twenty assuming now extra attacks or relevant feats per round. This is if the DM is willing to roll every dice individually rather than accepting statistical averages. Every six or higher rolled is simply a bonus. Further I'm not relying on actually winning that fight. If that dragon doesn't die it's hurt and has to rely on natural healing before it can come again if it's okay with taking so much punishment again for gold that always disappears long before the dragon could actually find it.

Well, damage can be completely negated, and the dragons can not be seen by regular minions by the cover of night or brush.

As for winning, any single dragon is an Imperious Command or Mage Slayer + Init away from defeating you. CR 9 black dragons also have first level spells. Neat.

EDIT: A strength rated bow you minions could use optimally would be 225 gp. How many of these guys do you have, and what level are they?

[Flickerdart]

And I then waved caring about group morale by allowing the scenario where the dragon finds me.

As for the DR I don't much care about it. Last I checked DR couldn't lower damage to less than one and hundreds are firing per round the dragon gets. Statistically that's somewhere near total number of minions divided by twenty assuming now extra attacks or relevant feats per round. This is if the DM is willing to roll every dice individually rather than accepting statistical averages. Every six or higher rolled is simply a bonus. Further I'm not relying on actually winning that fight. If that dragon doesn't die it's hurt and has to rely on natural healing before it can come again if it's okay with taking so much punishment again for gold that always disappears long before the dragon could actually find it.
The "damage is always at least 1" rule does not apply to damage affected by DR. The rules for DR don't make sense if it did, and the DR entry for Barbarians states it explicitly.

[ryu]

Ah but see here's the thing. We're all under this antimagic field you coated the world with even if the dragon is ruled out of range. Only instantaneous conjurations work here and I doubt you've got anything truly dangerous at level one spells. Besides all of those are things I can respond to by having specialized conjuration and traded my familiar for free abrupt jaunts.

Is your dragons hide check good enough to beat hundreds of individually rolled spot checks? Is the move silently check good enough to beat all the listens? I think not. How much hp does it have on average?

[tyckspoon]

Is your dragons hide check good enough to beat hundreds of individually rolled spot checks? Is the move silently check good enough to beat all the listens? I think not. How much hp does it have on average?

Hide and Move Silent are class skills for Black Dragons. A Young Adult has 16 HD, so up to 19 ranks in the skills, plus the bonuses of the Dark template (+8 Hide +6 Move Silent).. Yeah, I'm pretty sure a +27 Hide/+25 Move Silent beats your minions. Likely without even rolling.

[ryu]

By young adult we're CR 9. At which point I have fifth level instantaneous conjurations naturally and laugh at your dragon as a concept.

[Snowbluff]

Ah but see here's the thing. We're all under this antimagic field you coated the world with even if the dragon is ruled out of range. Only instantaneous conjurations work here and I doubt you've got anything truly dangerous at level one spells. Besides all of those are things I can respond to by having specialized conjuration and traded my familiar for free abrupt jaunts. You can only Abrupt Jaunt 1/round. You can't do so when flat footed.

Not that it works. It's not only extraordinary, but it's also an SLA without being an instantaneous conjuration. By RAW, of course.


Is your dragons hide check good enough to beat hundreds of individually rolled spot checks? Is the move silently check good enough to beat all the listens? I think not. How much hp does it have on average?

+24 Hide, +22 Move Silently. That's if the cowering foes (Frightful Presence, 150 feet, x5) can still attack. At a good 100 feet, and being distracted (fighting monsters) that's a -15 to spot the dragons. If you can see them while they are attacking, you are making 5 DC 19 will saves against fear, which stack using fear rules. Or if the minions have 4 HD or less, they just panicked and rendered useless in a single save. What minions are you using again?

153 HP.

[ryu]

Point buy for the campaign? Yes it's important for once.

[Snowbluff]

5 CR 9 enemies are considered playable for a DM at party level 7 if he's being a jerk. I didn't want to bump it to the next CR, because that's supposed to be impossible.


Point buy for the campaign? Yes it's important for once.

Yes, yes it is. I'll say 32 for your PC (even though a jerk would say 28 or something). NPCs would use an array. The local area has the PHB races, decked out with NPC classes. Could you direct me to the rules for hiring NPCs? I mean, other than level 1 NPCs.

[ryu]

Leadership value for followers: 22 7 level 9 cha 2 great enough renown to be specifically hunted by a dragon 1 fairness and generosity because most of them would consider a few extra silver free per day generous and money is no object 1 special power because anyone who can disappear and reappear a few hundred feet away besides me raise their hand. 2 base of operations where the siege weapons are being stored. All bonuses are taken into account before first failure.

Now that offers 91 henchmen and a cohort who is actually lower level than my best level 6 henchman.

By raw there's nothing against followers picking leadership as a feat is there? If that goes through what's the allowed stat array? Once I have full numbers we can discuss feat and race optimization.

[Snowbluff]

Leadership value for followers: 22 7 level 9 cha 2 great enough renown to be specifically hunted by a dragon 1 fairness and generosity because most of them would consider a few extra silver free per day generous and money is no object 1 special power because anyone who can disappear and reappear a few hundred feet away besides me raise their hand. 2 base of operations where the siege weapons are being stored. All bonuses are taken into account before first failure. Looks pretty good. I give my NPCs extra pay as well. :smallwink:

I'll need the rules location for the siege weapons as well, if you are using them.

+9 Cha? :smallconfused:


Now that offers 91 henchmen and a cohort who is actually lower level than my best level 6 henchman. :smalltongue: PFFT! That's hilarious.


By raw there's nothing against followers picking leadership as a feat is there? If that goes through what's the allowed stat array? Once I have full numbers we can discuss feat and race optimization.
Leadership would be allowed by RAW, but I don't think you are allowed to determine the feats of followers. A single level 6 Joe Schmoe probably would not have much of a leadership score, anyway.

15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10 for your Cohort. I'll see about generating followers.

[ryu]

You gave me 32 point buy and an assumed position where con and dex mattered less than cha. Do the math.

Incidentally can we pick feats for our cohorts? We both know what I'm doing in a level with him if I can.

As for generating followers assume I'm trying to attract people with some skill in archery as every goddamned one of them is being handed some form of bow or crossbow.

I'd also like to see how much I can get for followers before determining a siege setup.

[Snowbluff]

You gave me 32 point buy and an assumed position where con and dex mattered less than cha. Do the math.
I got +4 for being at 18 Cha.

Incidentally can we pick feats for our cohorts? We both know what I'm doing in a level with him if I can. Hm... doesn't look like it. I'd allow him taking leadership, since he'd level under your command.


As for generating followers assume I'm trying to attract people with some skill in archery as every goddamned one of them is being handed some form of bow or crossbow. So, I think you'll be getting a lot of warriors.

How about you choose how many are in each NPC class.


I'd also like to see how much I can get for followers before determining a siege setup.
Alright.

[ryu]

Okay I have some very important guessing to perform about just how much I'm likely to see from various class choices in terms of feats. Am I allowed to decide how the array prioritizes stats or is that based on picked class? In this one corner case that actually matters. So much mathing to consider.... Given all this knowledge I think it may be best to wait until tomorrow to decide. Well either that or seeing if I can cheese to fifth level spells early because preparing planeshift and going to the ethereal plane and back is probably going to be a highly import and powerful safety option. Also how to allocate feats in general in a world where the common logic isn't really optimal YET...

[Snowbluff]

Okay I have some very important guessing to perform about just how much I'm likely to see from various class choices in terms of feats. Am I allowed to decide how the array prioritizes stats or is that based on picked class? In this one corner case that actually matters. So much mathing to consider.... You can decide how it prioritizes per class. For example, all warriors would have the same array. This is mostly so I don't have to do it myself.

I'll make a few sample feat lists and roll which to decide which/how many NPC gets which list. While, when I get some time. Honestly, I am more interest in how many NPC rounds it would take to kill these dragons.


Given all this knowledge I think it may be best to wait until tomorrow to decide. Well either that or seeing if I can cheese to fifth level spells early because preparing planeshift and going to the ethereal plane and back is probably going to be a highly import and powerful safety option. Also how to allocate feats in general in a world where the common logic isn't really optimal YET...
Well, the point of what I've suggested is that something terrible might before being capable of Planeshifting. I mean, I am sure it's possible, but cheesing to get it earlier would mean pushing the whole experiment back in level.

[ryu]

Keep in mind that everything being slightly lower in level is still positive if the hardship comes at level six or later. Maybe at CR 8 it'll be less likely to have something that flies, has DR/Magic, area effecting save and still probably die, high anti detection skill ranks, and an automatic most of the horde is useless before combat even starts ability. Pushing my hardship sooner to the point where even one of those is mitigated or removed is a drastic survivability increase for the horde.

[lesser_minion]

Spell is the effect. You don't cast a 'Spell'. 'Spell' refers the result. The problem is that the AMF follow NO logic.

That directly contradicts the text of the antimagic field spell, which I already quoted: "the conjuration itself is no longer in effect". And indeed, 'effect' (as in, "the effects of instantaneous conjurations") is actually a formal game term, and specifically refers to a thing summoned or created by a spell. What the spell does is its 'outcome' or 'result'.

A thing created by an instantaneous conjuration is not affected by an antimagic field, despite being a "summoned or conjured" creature, but you cannot summon or conjure anything into or from within an antimagic field.

Additionally, the space within an antimagic field is supposedly 'impervious' to magic, which would imply that most spells cannot be cast through one to affect things on the other side.

[TuggyNE]

Additionally, the space within an antimagic field is supposedly 'impervious' to magic, which would imply that most spells cannot be cast through one to affect things on the other side.

Despite, of course, nowhere stating that it can break line of effect.

[Snowbluff]

Keep in mind that everything being slightly lower in level is still positive if the hardship comes at level six or later. Maybe at CR 8 it'll be less likely to have something that flies, has DR/Magic, area effecting save and still probably die, high anti detection skill ranks, and an automatic most of the horde is useless before combat even starts ability. Pushing my hardship sooner to the point where even one of those is mitigated or removed is a drastic survivability increase for the horde.

Yeah, it would help. Just keep in mind that Black Dragons have ranks in Hide and Move Silently, anyway. I chose the dragon because it's a total pain.

Sidenote: Bah, this chart I think it means to say that 2 dragons would be ridiculous. My bad. Still, one is seeming bad enough.

[unseenmage]

I got +4 for being at 18 Cha.
Hm... doesn't look like it. I'd allow him taking leadership, since he'd level under your command.
So, I think you'll be getting a lot of warriors.

How about you choose how many are in each NPC class.

Alright.

In 3.0 Followers were restricted to NPC classes only. That line of text disappeared in the 3.5 DMG.

Just thought I'd point that out.

[eggynack]

Despite, of course, nowhere stating that it can break line of effect.
Actually, once again according to the Rules Compendium, "An antimagic area doesn’t block line of effect." It's a region of clarity in this hectic world of ours.

Edit: Page 11 again, by the by, for those who enjoy a fuller citation.

[Snowbluff]

In 3.0 Followers were restricted to NPC classes only. That line of text disappeared in the 3.5 DMG.

Just thought I'd point that out.
Yeah, but then I would have to set up a map of the surrounding area with the size and populations of each settlement, including potential percentages of each class and levels.

Actually, once again according to the Rules Compendium, "An antimagic area doesn’t block line of effect." It's a region of clarity in this hectic world of ours.

Edit: Page 11 again, by the by, for those who enjoy a fuller citation.

I really wish it blocked LoE on most spells. I think that would help fix it.

[ryu]

I just realized something hilarious. This antimagic field doesn't block line of effect, or casting, and only suppresses things happening inside it. This means pretty much the only limitations I'm under against a flyer are that I can't cast spells that effect myself or my immediate surroundings that aren't instant conjurations. I can however get an entire stack of magic npcs and get them all shooting weak evocations that are never within the field. LAWL.

[Snowbluff]

Anything the Dragons are wearing are likely subject to a Widened AMF.

[ryu]

Fair enough. You didn't say the dragon was wearing anything though...:smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

Fair enough. You didn't say the dragon was wearing anything though...:smallbiggrin:

Well, they have gold and stuff. I was thinking about at least giving them a really light armor, a bag o' coins, or just have bits of currency stuck in their scales. You know, things typically founds on a dragon when you loot it or whatever.

[unseenmage]

Yeah, but then I would have to set up a map of the surrounding area with the size and populations of each settlement, including potential percentages of each class and levels.

To what end exactly?

(The below is based on my interpretation of the above. Disregard if it holds no bearing.)
According to the SRD for Leadership (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Leadership), "A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment.", the player chooses the race, class, and alignment of the Cohort they want.
Yes it says "try" but if the assumption is that they fail then the argument becomes moot as the ability granted by the feat is being negated.

For Followers, "Followers are similar to cohorts...", which extends to the criteria of how they're attracted.
Additionally, Cohorts are called out as coming with gear appropriate to their NPC WBL and Follower gear allowance similarly inherits from the Cohort equipment line.

I'm assuming that mapping the surrounding area and it's populous is an attempt to limit what race, class, alignment options would be available. Which is fine as DM fiat. However, it is still fiat, albeit a more complicated version. The end result is the same, the DM says no.
My point being, justifications aside, the RAI for the attraction of Cohorts and Followers is clear. The player attracts the class, race, alignment combo they want. 'Turning off' that functionality undoes the feat's benefit.

[Snowbluff]

Well, if there are no third level Aasimar Sorcerers in the game, I'd imagine you'd have a hard time attracting one as a followers.

[Deophaun]

Anything the Dragons are wearing are likely subject to a Widened AMF.
There goes the dragon's DR. (DR/magic is a supernatural ability, not extraordinary)

[Snowbluff]

There goes the dragon's DR. (DR/magic is a supernatural ability, not extraordinary)

Ooh, interesting. Source, page, and line, please? They are bound to have something one them, regardless.

EDIT: Found it. Rules Compendium, page 46. They'd use a feat for (EX) DR, me thinks.

[unseenmage]

Well, if there are no third level Aasimar Sorcerers in the game, I'd imagine you'd have a hard time attracting one as a followers.

And that comes down to what sources were allowed and/or what campaign setting the game is occurring under.

It's kinda confusing for a theoretical exercise, I know; I just felt that I should point out that the allowance or disallowance of the Leadership feat's capabilities would by necessity have to happen at a sooner junction than mapping the environs of the adventure itself.

Please forgive my intrusion into your discussion and do carry on, I'm enjoying the implications on several fronts. (Even if the Antimagic Field's very existence is being proven a farce.)

Edit: Alternatively, one might consider the Energy Transformation Field as an alternative to the Antimagic Field.
Though it too suffers from not stopping Line of Effect, it DOES disrupt casting within it's area of effect.
Also, would a Dead Magic Zone stop line of effect or spellcasting? Or does it inherit from Antimagic Field?

[ryu]

Would the new feat based dr be magic based? If it's material based we both know I'm going to void all over it.

[Deophaun]

Ooh, interesting. Source, page, and line, please? They are bound to have something one them, regardless.

EDIT: Found it. Rules Compendium, page 46. They'd use a feat for (EX) DR, me thinks.
It's also in the MM errata, because they belatedly realized that just putting (Ex or Su) next to the entry was less than useful.

[Snowbluff]

@Deop Yeah, the MM entry is so useless, lol. :smallbiggrin:


And that comes down to what sources were allowed and/or what campaign setting the game is occurring under.

It's kinda confusing for a theoretical exercise, I know; I just felt that I should point out that the allowance or disallowance of the Leadership feat's capabilities would by necessity have to happen at a sooner junction than mapping the environs of the adventure itself.
Yeah, it's a mess, but it's at least an easier way to quantify some minions, IMO.



Please forgive my intrusion into your discussion and do carry on, I'm enjoying the implications on several fronts.
Nah, it's fine. I'm only here to simulate being a pain in the ass, rather than being an actual one for a change. :smalltongue:

[ryu]

Point being what kind of dr is being granted by the feat? Do dragons get feats per hit dice or does this count as increasing its cr with character levels?

[Snowbluff]

Point being what kind of dr is being granted by the feat? Do dragons get feats per hit dice or does this count as increasing its cr with character levels?

I was just throwing out thoughts. All creatures get feats if they have the intellect, and Dragon feats are supposed to be customized by the DM.

[ryu]

Is there easily available DR/magic or is it settling for DR/some weird material or type of damage? If it's weak to blunt damage we will tie rocks to our arrows and shoot them as improvised to improve damage output.

[Snowbluff]

Is there easily available DR/magic or is it settling for DR/some weird material or type of damage? If it's weak to blunt damage we will tie rocks to our arrows and shoot them as improvised to improve damage output. You could just use blunt arrows. Those are items.

Hmm, let's see.

Roll with it is DR 2/-, but the current dragons don't have the Con.

A Mineral Warrior would give DR 8/Adamantine. I would have to switch back to a lower CR dragon for that.

Just throwing out ideas.

[ryu]

Oh yeah do the mineral warrior thing. Adamantine arrows are probably easier to come by than arrows that are somehow magic and not suppressed by the fields.

[SiuiS]

Given that instantaneous conjurations aren't suppressed, cancelled isn't a rules term, and none of the text you quoted even mentions casting, I'm not sure this really changes anything.

It may be one of those things in the DMG that isn't exactly the same in the SRD.

Looking at it however, it says spells, SLAs and supernatural abilities in the first line. That's the one which gives me the impression that spells are not allowed inside an AMF, though the specific nature of the conjugation allows one to shoot into a Nd through an AMF.

This is also not a minor thought; I've seen it many places, and never really questioned it until now. I've even brought this up before and the people who thought you could cast conjugations into an AMF said "oh, that makes sense" and left it after that.


There is no prohibition on casting spells within an antimagic field. The difficulty is making them useful. The reason why it's ruled that you cannot cast instantaneous conjurations while in an AMF is this:

This is the clause from the anti-magic field spell description that makes instantaneous conjurations immune. It actually doesn't grant immunity to instantaneous conjurations: it expressly distinguishes between spell and effect, and only grants immunity to the effect.

So, while you can 'cast' an instantaneous conjuration while in an antimagic field, it actually will be suppressed. This prevents the thing to be conjured (which would be immune) from appearing, and then the spell's duration expires. Thus, the spell simply does nothing, and you've wasted your spell slot and action.

How bizarrely arcane.


I don't know if this has been linked in this thread, but have you seen this?

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8843.0

I thought it was always, 'you can cast an instantaneous conjuration from the outside into an antimagic field or null magic zone.'
That's how I thought it worked, aye.

E: Aha.


An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

[Snowbluff]

Oh yeah do the mineral warrior thing. Adamantine arrows are probably easier to come by than arrows that are somehow magic and not suppressed by the fields.

Yeah, but its quite pricey, and you have to guess ahead of time that those are what you need.

Mineral Warrior sounds bad to me personally, because the black dragon is a water subtype creature.

[eggynack]

This is also not a minor thought; I've seen it many places, and never really questioned it until now. I've even brought this up before and the people who thought you could cast conjugations into an AMF said "oh, that makes sense" and left it after that.

Here ya go, "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result." It's right in the spell description, on page 200 of the PHB. Additionally, you're able to get line of effect into the AMF, because due to the Rules Compendium quote I posted earlier, AMF's don't block line of effect.

[Karoht]

In Pathfinder, my go to solution when someone has an AMF up is Aqueous Orb. Why?
The AO isn't affected by the AMF (Instantaneous Conjuration), and if I successfully pick the caster up, now anyone else I pick up in the AO is also in an AMF and less likely to get out.

[ryu]

Buy arrows of as many types as possible only use the normal ones for hunting smaller game on average days. For bigger things fire as many arrows as possible and keep typing varied unless one type looks specifically more effective than the others. DR rules explicitly state that people are aware when their attacks are reduced to zero and all minions are recommended to switch arrow type if their type isn't doing much on a hit. Minions who get a hit are also to call out what worked so others switch immediately. All followers will be warriors unless I'm allowed to use non-npc classes. The cohort will be an adept to gain special powers bonus on leadership now and spells that will be useful once I've enacted the plan.

Hunting trips will be made during the day and preferably with as little cloud cover as possible. Benign transposition to switch to minion at edge of horde nearest bunker with familiar nearby as safety precaution. Also switching scribe scroll out for improved initiative and as many items of spot improvement as possible to make hunting more efficient and lessen the chances of being ambushed.

[lesser_minion]

Here ya go, "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result." It's right in the spell description, on page 200 of the PHB.

An AMF suppresses "any spell used within, cast into, or brought within" its area. So it looks to me like the same thing stopping you from casting instantaneous conjurations while inside -- that the spells themselves can be suppressed even though their effects cannot -- would also prevent you from casting such spells into the anti-magic field.

[eggynack]

An AMF suppresses "any spell used within, cast into, or brought within" its area. So it looks to me like the same thing stopping you from casting instantaneous conjurations while inside -- that the spells themselves can be suppressed even though their effects cannot -- would also prevent you from casting such spells into the anti-magic field.
Except that section is general, while the part about instantaneous conjurations is comparatively quite specific, and specific overrules general. While other effects can theoretically be affected, instantaneous conjurations are not, because the rules say so.

[Pickford]

I believe we were at the point of discussing schrodingers AMF and using a combination of invoke magic and heighten spell to allow plane shifting to the ethereal plane to allow casting of genisis.

Spells can't be cast in an anti-magic field (amf), and instantaneous spell effects can't form in the amf. However, as they are fully real once created they aren't gone if they enter an amf after forming. Edit: This distinguishes the spell from its result. Spell can't be cast in or at an amf and if its result is magical it will disappear once it enters said amf.

Also: Snowbluff: Ironheart surge removes an effect on the character, which AMF actually isn't. It's an emanation that happens to be centered on the caster. Key distinction.

[eggynack]

Also: Snowbluff: Ironheart surge removes an effect on the character, which AMF actually isn't. It's an emanation that happens to be centered on the caster. Key distinction.
You are mistaken. Ironheart surge says, "Select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately." Antimagic field, being a spell affecting you with a duration of 1 or more rounds, is destroyed by IHS.

[georgie_leech]

You are mistaken. Ironheart surge says, "Select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately." Antimagic field, being a spell affecting you with a duration of 1 or more rounds, is destroyed by IHS.

Loathe as I am to agree with Pickford, he might have a point this time. While AMF interferes with any equipment or actively magical effects, it doesn't do anything to the Warblade themselves, so it doesn't affect them directly (unless they have inherent SU abilities from Race or Class or something). Is there any RAW support for being able to IHS effects that only affect items, like Chill/Heat Metal on the first or last rounds?

[Snowbluff]

Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

This line implies that creatures are affected. Whether or not that does anything to them is irrelevant.

After then, I'd like to see where it says the spell has to be affecting the initiator.:smallwink:

[georgie_leech]

This line implies that creatures are affected. Whether or not that does anything to them is irrelevant.

After then, I'd like to see where it says the spell has to be affecting the initiator.:smallwink:

"...One spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you..."

But fair point. AMF's can apparently affect a creature without, you know, affecting them in any way. Blasted RAW.

[Snowbluff]

"...One spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you... Yes, which clearly means:
1) 1 Spell
2) 1 Effect
3) 1 other condition currently affecting you.



But fair point. AMF's can apparently affect a creature without, you know, affecting them in any way. Blasted RAW.
Twas worth a look. :smalltongue:

[animewatcha]

So in an attempt to simplify the antimagic field argument. While I am within an antimagic field and my enemy is not, and I am not having to cast on the defensive / make concentration / insert-interrupt-tactic-here, can I chuck Acid splash at 'em till I run out of spells and they actually work?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidSplash.htm

[georgie_leech]

So in an attempt to simplify the antimagic field argument. While I am within an antimagic field and my enemy is not, and I am not having to cast on the defensive / make concentration / insert-interrupt-tactic-here, can I chuck Acid splash at 'em till I run out of spells and they actually work?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidSplash.htm

By RAW, likely. It's really weird, but there doesn't seem to be anything preventing you from doing so, beyond some of the most obvious RAI I've ever seen.

[ryu]

Per RAW antimagic field doesn't actually do anything to instantaneous conjurations. Hell RAW antimagic field ceases to exist and then reappear constantly like some kind of mystical flickering light.

Also I just had the most hilarious stupid idea. Snow is there any restriction on LA races with defined numbers that would be legal RAW? No not getting something with natural spellcasting. That would be FAR to boring.

[Snowbluff]

Also I just had the most hilarious stupid idea. Snow is there any restriction on LA races with defined numbers that would be legal RAW? No not getting something with natural spellcasting. That would be FAR to boring.
I was under the impression everything was supposed to be legal, or at least not banned. I would like some clarification on what you mean.

[ryu]

Pick something with a natural flyspeed as low la as possible zero if allowable. Be a wizard eidectic and with eschew components while naked. Now we have everything we need to start chaos shuffling feats earlier than sixth level feats into leadership and repeatedly stack the follower bonuses. Also I can now abuse abrupt jaunt shenanigans for total safety.

[eggynack]

Pick something with a natural flyspeed as low la as possible zero if allowable. Be a wizard eidectic and with eschew components while naked. Now we have everything we need to start chaos shuffling feats earlier than sixth level feats into leadership and repeatedly stack the follower bonuses. Also I can now abuse abrupt jaunt shenanigans for total safety.
Just use an anthropomorphic bat from Savage Species page 215. Those guys get 20 foot (average) flight speed without any LA or RHD.

[ryu]

Excellent. As soon as possible also have improved eschew materials and use it in conjunction with flying fabricate for infinite money, eternal level one status to avoid higher cr encounters, and several armies of leadership spawn.

[Snowbluff]

Pick something with a natural flyspeed as low la as possible zero if allowable. Be a wizard eidectic and with eschew components while naked. Now we have everything we need to start chaos shuffling feats earlier than sixth level feats into leadership and repeatedly stack the follower bonuses. Also I can now abuse abrupt jaunt shenanigans for total safety. Well, for starters Abrupt Jaunt (SLA and Ex) doesn't work if you are carrying scrolls of CS. The scrolls kind of cover themselves, being things.

[ryu]

Don't need scrolls. Just level four spell slots and time. I don't even need leadership or to leave my safety routine until level seven from LA 0 where I can start chaos shuffling naturally. There's also nothing stopping me from immediately running from any dragons with a combination of abrupt jaunt and dimension doors. To get to level seven I just need to keep encountering things and running from anything I can't beat.

[Pickford]

You are mistaken. Ironheart surge says, "Select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately." Antimagic field, being a spell affecting you with a duration of 1 or more rounds, is destroyed by IHS.

No eggynack, it is you who are mistaken. You highlighted the wrong portion. My objection was not that AMF is a spell, obviously it is, that would be a stupid objection to voice, but that it does fulfill the second part:


currently affecting you

It is an emanation and therefore is not cast on you. This fails the multi-prong IHS test.

Edit: And strictly speaking Georgie, Chill metal/heat metal don't ever affect the player, they affect an item which in turn affects the player.

[georgie_leech]

No eggynack, it is you who are mistaken. You highlighted the wrong portion. My objection was not that AMF is a spell, obviously it is, that would be a stupid objection to voice, but that it does fulfill the second part:



It is an emanation and therefore is not cast on you. This fails the multi-prong IHS test.



Huh? A spell doesn't need to be cast on you to affect you. See: Grease, Web, Fireball, Black Tentacles, every AoE in existence...

And if your objection is specific to emanations, then spells like Gust of Wind or Magic Circle Against [Alignment] would do nothing, as they're called out as being emanations.

[Pickford]

Huh? A spell doesn't need to be cast on you to affect you. See: Grease, Web, Fireball, Black Tentacles, every AoE in existence...

And if your objection is specific to emanations, then spells like Gust of Wind or Magic Circle Against [Alignment] would do nothing, as they're called out as being emanations.

The distinction being that if you're being blocked by Magic Circle, you can't dispel magic 'yourself' to remove it.

[eggynack]

No eggynack, it is you who are mistaken. You highlighted the wrong portion. My objection was not that AMF is a spell, obviously it is, that would be a stupid objection to voice, but that it does fulfill the second part:



It is an emanation and therefore is not cast on you. This fails the multi-prong IHS test.

Edit: And strictly speaking Georgie, Chill metal/heat metal don't ever affect the player, they affect an item which in turn affects the player.
What multi-prong IHS test are you talking about? There are effectively three prongs, and if any individual one is fulfilled, you can use iron heart surge on it. In this case, we're fulfilling the prong of a spell affecting you. There is no prong anywhere within the maneuver description that requires anything to be cast upon you. Affecting and cast upon are two different things, and the former just means that it's producing any kind of change relative to your character. The fact that you can define nearly anything you can imagine as affecting you somehow means that the maneuver is problematic. However in this case the effect is quite direct.

Edit:
The distinction being that if you're being blocked by Magic Circle, you can't dispel magic 'yourself' to remove it.
Then it's a good thing that dispel magic and iron heart surge are two different things.

[georgie_leech]

The distinction being that if you're being blocked by Magic Circle, you can't dispel magic 'yourself' to remove it.

So how does Gust of Wind work then? It's explicitly a line-shaped emanation.

[Snowbluff]

Don't need scrolls. Just level four spell slots and time. I don't even need leadership or to leave my safety routine until level seven from LA 0 where I can start chaos shuffling naturally. There's also nothing stopping me from immediately running from any dragons with a combination of abrupt jaunt and dimension doors. To get to level seven I just need to keep encountering things and running from anything I can't beat.

Well, the Dragon's run speed, and Abrupt Jaunt not working when you are near them.

Out of curiosity, how are you Shuffling?

[ryu]

Cast the shuffle while flying. Keep in mind the dragon actually has to get near me for the field to matter. The jaunt is pretty much just so I don't get picked off at a distance by the breath weapon. Always prepare at least one set of shuffle and as many dimension doors (read gtfo buttons) as possible. High int should allow for four bonus slots plus the base one and the extra from conjuration special.

[Snowbluff]

Um, correct me if I am wrong, but shuffling requires higher level slots than just plane shifting some where safer.

What were you going to shuffle, anyway?

[ryu]

Okay I admit that part was late night derp. Curse you misreading of spell level! This is what happens when I post at midnight. Still though the bat strategy does have a lot of potential. I now have a pretty reliable method of saying no to encounters with dragons until fifth level slots come naturally.

[Snowbluff]

Okay I admit that part was late night derp. Curse you misreading of spell level! This is what happens when I post at midnight. Still though the bat strategy does have a lot of potential. I now have a pretty reliable method of saying no to encounters with dragons until fifth level slots come naturally.
It's k, bro.


Yeah, it certainly helps. Then again, it means you are vulnerable to that sort of stuff if you run out of slots. It would take forever to get anything done, and a bad roll could wreck the whole thing.