Questions about Shield Sheath...

[XeraEternal]

Hello all!

So recently I've run into a small bit of confusion regarding shield attachments and how they interact with enchantments, namely the shield sheath from Races of Stone. The situation in question is as follows: I have a Small sized character who has a +1 Variable Sizing light shield with a shield sheath attached. Let's say I put a dagger in said sheath, then start doing things with my shield's properties, such as changing it to a buckler, and Sizing it down to diminutive.

What happens to my dagger? Does it fall out when I shift to the buckler, because those are ineligible for shield sheaths, or does it essentially get shifted into the shield and irretrievable? Does it do nothing, and simply ignore the placement restriction, because the shield wasn't a buckler when the sheath was put on? And what of sizing changes? Does my dagger change size also? Why/Why not?

I've asked others in my gaming group about it, but they have differing opinions in both directions, with nothing RAW/RAI to back up their statements (the closest we've found is in regards to the sizing property, as most size-changing spells such as Shrink Item and Enlarge Person will adjust sizing for items contained on/in the target of the spells).

Just wondering if anyone else has any kind of insight into this, my google-fu failed to get any useful insight.

[Raendyn]

The dagger wont fall out, thats for sure. As it is considered part of the shield, so the sizing property will affect it.

Also how did you get sizing fon a shield? It's a weapon property.

Now, IMO the dagger won't change size when you pull it out, also if it is already out it wont change size with the shield also. So, as long as the dagger is in the sheath, it gets all the size changes the shield gets.

[Ashtagon]

I'd choose one of:

a) The dagger gets locked inside the shield until the shield is made big enough again.
b) The dagger falls out when the shield is made too small for it.
c) The shield can't be resized to be too small for whatever is in the sheath. Take the dagger out, then you can downsize the shield.

Whichever way you decide, agree it with your GM, and keep to it consistently.

[Maginomicon]

Also how did you get sizing fon a shield? It's a weapon property.He's probably referring to the "variable" shield property, not the "sizing" weapon property at all (that is, mistakenly calling it "variable sizing" instead of "variable").


What happens to my dagger? Does it fall out when I shift to the buckler, because those are ineligible for shield sheaths, or does it essentially get shifted into the shield and irretrievable? Does it do nothing, and simply ignore the placement restriction, because the shield wasn't a buckler when the sheath was put on? And what of sizing changes? Does my dagger change size also? Why/Why not?

It's important to note that Races of Stone and the variable shield property are from different books. They each weren't written robustly enough to mesh perfectly with eachother because each author couldn't anticipate for every permutation of the use of shields that might be relevant.

Strictly speaking, the shield sheath would probably simply become non-functional (not break, just become non-functional) while the shield is a buckler. In game terms, this would probably simply mean that you can't sheath or unsheath a weapon into it while the sheath is non-functional.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A heavy or light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon and can be enchanted as one, seperately from it's defensive stats.

Personally i'd rule that the sheath changes size with the shield but any weapon you want to put in needs the sizing property, too.
When you try to change the shield to a buckler or change the size with a normal weapon in it the weapon simply drops to the ground.
It's a houserule of course since RAW doesn't say one way or another but i feel that it's the most reasonable approach.

[Deophaun]

When RAW is silent on an interaction, I have two questions:

- What's the simplest mechanical solution?
- Is it abuseable? If it is, find the next simplest solution and repeat.

The simplest mechanical solution is "don't worry about it." Your dagger's still there, the sheath still functions, and you can draw the weapon (but it will always be its normal size when drawn). You just need to return the shield to its regular size before re-sheathing the weapon.

Is this abuseable? I really can't see how.

[XeraEternal]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Sleepyphoenixx is right, I'm adding the sizing property due to shields being enchantable both as weapons and armor.

Let me mention a little about my character, and the situation overall. Recently my party has accidentally released a demon who has more or less rewritten the history of our world and made himself the eternal ruler of the plane. Our party lost one of its members after the shift occurred, so my DM has told me to roll up a new character. He's supposed to be a seasoned war hero from our timeline, who happened across a similar device to the one we activated at the same time we unleashed the BBEG on the world, and as a result he got brought along too (which is used to explain why he'd join up with people trying to change the world everyone else knows and enjoys)

I envision him as a "always be prepared for anything" type, and have been aiming to make all of his gear flexible in some way or another. In this, variable stuck out because what better way to have your shield be flexible than to have it literally transformer-style shift from a buckler to a towershield and back? Add in the sizing property, because there's all sorts of fun shenanigans to be had there. Need a bridge/ramp/elevator? Colossal towershield!

So yes, there's some funny little tricks I'd like to do with it, but nothing I'd deem more abusive than fun, or gamebreaking.

The closest thing I can think of (and the reason I came to the forums to ask) that would be an "abuse case" (abuse being loosely defined as an obscure advantage gained through means not necessarily expected by game design) is to put said dagger in said sheath, buckler-ify my shield and size it down to diminutive, at which point I can bluff people to say it's simply a decorative button. Let's me get a little AC and a weapon into locations where I might otherwise be expected to be unarmed. There's other ways to do this, but this was the creative solution I found.

I appreciate all responses so far, if anyone else has input awesome, otherwise I'll just talk it out with my group and see where things go. (My character hasn't been introduced yet, so I wanted to get this figured out before he does so I can know if I should save the money and just not add the sheath)