Level 3 Tank

[koboldish]

Okay, so I just joined a new campaign, and was banned from playing tier 1 casters (I've met the DM before :smallwink:). We are all currently level 3. One encounter in, we got TPK'ed. Entirely not the DM's fault, as he was rolling out in the open. The dice just killed us. So anyways, the party decided they needed a tank to stand out in front. Right now, we have about 50 uses of CLW left, so having a healer won't be a problem. My current build is a Binder 3, taking Inproved Bind and binding Folocar. I have an AC in the mid 20's with full plate and a tower shield, and can throw 3d6 single target lightning bolts with reflex for half damage. The attack roll penalty for not being proficient with heavy armor is irrelevant, as my primary method of attack will need no attack roll.

So, my fellow playgrounders, what would you suggest to make this build more tanky? Or, what build would you suggest instead of this one to serve as a tank.

Also, this is a pretty low op campaign, trying to stay around tier 3-4.

Thanks!

[Gwendol]

The only class able to tank is the knight (PHB II), with the Test of Mettle ability, and Bulwark of Defence. It can draw enemy attacks, and make it hard for them to disengage.

However, ToM scales not well and so is rather unreliable. Bulwark of defence is solid though, and coupled with a reach weapon, combat reflexes, and other feats to do battlefield control, be it physical or through demoralization is recommended.

[Aegis013]

The only class able to tank is the knight (PHB II), with the Test of Mettle ability, and Bulwark of Defence. It can draw enemy attacks, and make it hard for them to disengage.

However, ToM scales not well and so is rather unreliable. Bulwark of defence is solid though, and coupled with a reach weapon, combat reflexes, and other feats to do battlefield control, be it physical or through demoralization is recommended.

I think the Crusader's Iron Guard's Glare in conjunction with Steeley Resolve, damage reduction, Thicket of Blades, and Standstill/trip feats/Knockdown can do the same thing as Knight, (I'd personally say can do it better, but that's just my opinion) so Knight isn't the only class able to do it.

Actually Binder can do the job of being a highly defensive machine with the right bindings, though it doesn't have much to prevent enemies from disengaging to go for other people. Or it can be shenanigans and interesting powers. Or if you know what you're going to be up against, it can sometimes just be extremely powerful. Though I agree most of the book has issues, specifically Shadowcaster and Truenamer, which both could use some major changes.

[HalfQuart]

The attack roll penalty for not being proficient with heavy armor is irrelevant, as my primary method of attack will need no attack roll.
Note that non-proficiency also gives you a penalty to strength-based and dexterity-based ability and skill checks, which includes Initiative checks. And the penalties from armor and shield stack.

The PHB is confusing about this, because it has different info in different places, but Rules Compendium p14 clarifies things.

[Humble Master]

Well, Crusader is the quintessential tank. At 3rd level you get things that let you delay damage, give enemies penalties for attacking your allies and grant AC bonuses to your allies.

[koboldish]

Note that non-proficiency also gives you a penalty to strength-based and dexterity-based ability and skill checks, which includes Initiative checks. And the penalties from armor and shield stack.

The PHB is confusing about this, because it has different info in different places, but Rules Compendium p14 clarifies things.

Yeah,,,, Because it's a low point buy, I'm probably going to end up dumping dex anyways. I am resolved to going last. Thanks for the reminder though. What would you suggest for a full knight build? How about a full crusader build? Thanks very much for the input.

[GreenETC]

I'd recommend going for a Dwarf Crusader 1/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2

Trade Dwarven Urgrosh proficiency for Dwarven Warpike from Races of Stone using the rules from Complete Warrior pg 154. Trade out Rage for Ferocity or Whirling Frenzy to get rid of the AC penalty. Then take Stone Power at level 1 and Combat Reflexes at level 3.

Wear a Breastplate (or a Mithral Chain Shirt if you take Ferocity) and focus on tripping and denial. With the Fast Movement you're just the same as a regular character, and you can use Stone Power to attack while maintaining your HP thanks to the Delayed Damage Pool, plus Iron Guard's Glare focuses the attacks on you, with your big hit point total.

Put a 14 in Dex, a 16-18 in Str, and put the leftover points in Con, and you're good to go. Run into the middle of combat and start preventing enemies from leaving without provoking a trip from you.

[herrhauptmann]

I'm going to work against the knight/crusader initiative, and suggest a Chainwielding Maniac.

Your only tanking mechanic will be your reach, and the fact that people won't want to provoke AOOs. As a CWM, I also recommend granting flanking to your allies in place of doing lots of damage yourself. This is great if you've got melee rogues in the party. Also great if you've got newbies, you'll make them look/feel better. (Important as you're an experienced player)

Feats:
EWP: Spiked Chain
Combat Reflexes
Vexing and Adaptable Flanker (phb2)
You can use willing deformity (FC?) to increase your reach.
Deft Opportunist (+4 on AOO)

If you want to do a little tripping too:
Jotunbrud (note: this is not powerful build, it doesn't boost weapon damage) Skip/boost this by going PsyWar for Expansion
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip (can skip combat expertise by going wolf totem barbarian2)
Knockdown
You'll want the stand-up skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel too, in case you fail to trip someone and have to fall over or drop your weapon.

[HalfQuart]

It really depends a lot on how your DM plays enemies... generally to be a good tank you either need to do a lot of damage so enemies want to kill you first before moving on to the squishies, or do something that prevents them from being able to effectively attack your allies most of the time. The latter is generally done through knight/crusader or tripper. I don't think a non-tripper spiked chain build will achieve what you want, but the problem with going the tripper route is you may frequently find things that are difficult to reliably trip: large multi-legged or really strong stuff. So if you can't also dish out a lot of damage you can end up getting neutralized pretty easily (if your AoO doesn't do much, monsters can just take it and move past you to your allies). Or if your AC is so absurdly high that attacking you isn't worthwhile, intelligent monsters may take risks to attack others -- not what you want, unless you can really punish them for it.

So if the one of the controller tanks doesn't appeal to you, go for something like Barbarian where you can dish out a lot of damage and also take some punishment.

But if your DM plays less crafty and will usually target the meat shields no matter what... or lets you role-play goading the enemy (the Goad feat sucks, BTW), that opens up a lot more options.

[Person_Man]

Dahlver-Nar is the tank-ist vestige. Shield Self makes one target share 50% of your damage (Will negates). Buy a mount or some other animal with a lot of hit points, and keep Shield Self on it continuously, and you’ve basically increased your hit points by 50%. Then in the first or second round of combat try to switch it to the enemy with the most hit points (usually the biggest/strongest enemy, and now you're also killing them. Maddening Moan also gives you a potent area of effect Save or Daze effect (Will negates, Mind Effecting). And the nifty Natural Armor bonus is based off your Con.

[Gwendol]

I think the Crusader's Iron Guard's Glare in conjunction with Steeley Resolve, damage reduction, Thicket of Blades, and Standstill/trip feats/Knockdown can do the same thing as Knight, (I'd personally say can do it better, but that's just my opinion) so Knight isn't the only class able to do it.

Actually Binder can do the job of being a highly defensive machine with the right bindings, though it doesn't have much to prevent enemies from disengaging to go for other people. Or it can be shenanigans and interesting powers. Or if you know what you're going to be up against, it can sometimes just be extremely powerful. Though I agree most of the book has issues, specifically Shadowcaster and Truenamer, which both could use some major changes.

Absolutely, although the reach of ToM is much greater than Iron Guard's glare. All in all though, the crusader is a solid class if ToB is in play.

[Slipperychicken]

All in all though, the crusader is a solid class if ToB is in play.

Dafuq? Crusader is from ToB.

[dascarletm]

Dafuq? Crusader is from ToB.

hence why it would need to be in play.

[bekeleven]

I'll break the mold a bit. My favorite tank build is a shapeshifter (master of many forms primarily, or my homebrew). Shift into a large-size forms, get combat reflexes and the Stand Still feat from the XPH.

Stand Still allows you to forgo an AoO to make a special attack that stops all enemy movement for a round. And with large size, you of course have 10 feet of reach.

If you can't get Stand Still, taking forms with improved grab is a decent substitute. When they charge in, take the free AoO. If they try to leave, you can choose to hit them and start a free grapple. And unless they use the withdraw action, you can actually hit them twice.

Feel free to dip into Warshaper for Morphic Reach. Also feel free to take expertise/improved trip, or just play races that get trip as a bonus feat (great with large size obviously), but keep in mind that most forms with trip don't get improved grab.

[Greenish]

And with large size, you of course have 10 feet of reach.Well, that depends on your form. Large (tall) has 10' reach, but Large (long) like a bear or a centaur only has 5'.

[bekeleven]

Well, that depends on your form. Large (tall) has 10' reach, but Large (long) like a bear or a centaur only has 5'.

Good to note.

Also, it does come online after level 3, so I guess I fail reading comp. Even the base class can't get large forms until level 4.

[Gwendol]

Also, grappling can be downright suicidal if used under the wrong circumstances.

[bekeleven]

Also, grappling can be downright suicidal if used under the wrong circumstances.Yeah, it's generally bad if your team is outnumbered, which is why Stand Still is a good feat to have as well.

For that matter, Stand Still is good even if you're not a shapeshanger.

[Slipperychicken]

hence why it would need to be in play.

Crusader's status as a solid class is not dependent on its inclusion in a given game.

[Gwendol]

Of course not, but its availability likely is. Or am I missing something?

[Flickerdart]

Knight's pretty good as a dip class, so if you're tanking you should consider going Knight 4/Crusader X. The few things you pick up from Knight are going to be ones you don't want to rely on the Crusader's unreliable recovery mechanic and low number of known slots in order to get.

[Slipperychicken]

Of course not, but its availability likely is. Or am I missing something?

Not really, I know what you meant. I just felt like being pedantic about it.