Can DM advance monsters by both HD and Class Levels?

[Viscerator]

Greeting guys!

I got a question when I am now advancing my NPC. For every monster, you can see in the "Advancement" entry of a monster is either xx-xx HD, or by character levels.

So here is the question: Can DM for example first advance monster's racial HD, and then give additional class levels?

Thanks in advance!

[Galvin]

Of course. Advancing a monster with class levels is part of how you can make weak monsters challenge high level players. I recently stuck some Barbarian levels on a bugbear for my players to fight, so why can't I stick some Barbarian levels on an Advanced Bugbear with 4 Humanoid Hit Dice instead of 3?

Edit: Check out Urpriest's Monstrous Guide to Monsters for additional help.

[Vaz]

Yes.

However, with the exception of Dragons, it's almost entirely not worth advancing HD on their own unless they're mooks; at which point just give them Fighter for the bonus feats. They don't get new abilities by doing so, unless they have a template (e.g Phrenic), but even then, they'd advance the SLA's/Abilities gained by the template if they took class levels.

From a purely optimization purpose of course.

[Darkhope]

at which point just give them Fighter for the bonus feats.

Wizard/Sorceror works well too once they start getting a caster level based off their HD.

[Zombimode]

Yes.

However, with the exception of Dragons, it's almost entirely not worth advancing HD on their own unless they're mooks; at which point just give them Fighter for the bonus feats. They don't get new abilities by doing so, unless they have a template (e.g Phrenic), but even then, they'd advance the SLA's/Abilities gained by the template if they took class levels.

From a purely optimization purpose of course.

Since levels will advance a monster's CR much faster (only in few cases equal, but never slower) then hit dice, you can often get stronger monster by advancing hit dice instead of using class levels. And from an optimization standpoint for monsters (instead of characters) only CR matters.

[Vaz]

Any DM running CR based encounters straight out of the box needs shooting. Te CR system is so borked it cannot be used as anything more than a swift guide, and even then.

Adamantine Horror, I'm looking you.

And that damned crab.

[Flickerdart]

Advancing by HD will very quickly make any of the 1/4 and 1/3 CR/HD group monsters absolute terrors while keeping their CR quite low. But you should always slap on a character level if you can, for the elite array and wealth.

[Viscerator]

Yes.

However, with the exception of Dragons, it's almost entirely not worth advancing HD on their own unless they're mooks; at which point just give them Fighter for the bonus feats. They don't get new abilities by doing so, unless they have a template (e.g Phrenic), but even then, they'd advance the SLA's/Abilities gained by the template if they took class levels.

From a purely optimization purpose of course.

Thank you! I got your idea for optimization. My original idea is for optimization reason as well. I suppose to first advance monsters' HD, and then add non-associated class level to them. For example a undead monster with 2HD/1CR, one can advance it to 18HD/5CR. Then it means you can add 18 non-associated class level with 9 CR increments? so if the class is sorcerer, then you will have a 36HD/13CR monster with 18 sorcerer level? am I right?

[Chronos]

Quoth Zombiemode:

And from an optimization standpoint for monsters (instead of characters) only CR matters.
Not really. If you're optimizing monsters, you're the DM, and can if you choose just set a monster's CR by fiat. And doing so will often be a lot more fair and sensible than just blindly following the guidelines, as illustrated by the 18th level sorcerer with a ton of extra HP and access to epic feats that "should be" only CR 14.

The only way in which it's meaningful to "optimize monsters" is to design encounters in such a way to maximize the fun the players will have with them, and that's not really measurable with numbers.

[Urpriest]

Thank you! I got your idea for optimization. My original idea is for optimization reason as well. I suppose to first advance monsters' HD, and then add non-associated class level to them. For example a undead monster with 2HD/1CR, one can advance it to 18HD/5CR. Then it means you can add 18 non-associated class level with 9 CR increments? so if the class is sorcerer, then you will have a 36HD/13CR monster with 18 sorcerer level? am I right?

Yes, that works. As has been stated, just because something is within CR range of your party doesn't mean they can fight it...my preferred interpretation is that CR governs XP and treasure (well, EL for treasure, but you get the gist), while as a GM you must fudge what actually makes sense for the PCs to fight.

[Zombimode]

Not really. If you're optimizing monsters, you're the DM, and can if you choose just set a monster's CR by fiat. And doing so will often be a lot more fair and sensible than just blindly following the guidelines, as illustrated by the 18th level sorcerer with a ton of extra HP and access to epic feats that "should be" only CR 14.

The only way in which it's meaningful to "optimize monsters" is to design encounters in such a way to maximize the fun the players will have with them, and that's not really measurable with numbers.

Sure, there are many interpretations for "optimization" regarding monsters.

But tell me, if optimization of player characters means getting the most bang out of your level, then isn't getting the most bang for a creature's CR at least in the same spirit? :smallamused:

I'm not saying that DMs should do so.

[DeltaEmil]

A GM should optimize a monster so that it hopefully provides a challenging, fun, memorable and awesome fight that the player characters still can win by doing their best, is capable of engaging all player characters, and enables all player characters to do their schtick against it, making everybody feel like they contributed and are working together as a heroic team (instead of Spellcasters: The Movie featuring exp-leeching sidekicks).

Giving a monster class levels or more hit dice might achieve that result, but in most cases, not really. In the case of class levels, more often that not, it only adds more complexity to the monster, but no visible result for all the effort (a monster that was modified by having 10 additional fighter class levels and then dies in one hit or is negated by one spell anyway is a waste of time).

[Bogardan_Mage]

Sure, there are many interpretations for "optimization" regarding monsters.

But tell me, if optimization of player characters means getting the most bang out of your level, then isn't getting the most bang for a creature's CR at least in the same spirit? :smallamused:
No, it isn't, because determining CR is ultimately mainly guesswork on the part of the very person doing the "optimising". The way to get the most bang for a creature's CR is to fiat that a very powerful creature really has a very low CR. I don't see any way to disentangle this and other such options from anything that would make monster "optimisation" an interesting exercise.

[JellyPooga]

Of course, it should be noted that advancing HD can sometimes be more beneficial than adding Class Levels. Most monstrous special abilities with a saving throw (e.g. a Ghoul/Ghasts Paralyze) are based on Racial HD only.

I think I'd be a little more wary of fighting a Ghast with 10 Racial HD than one with 4 Racial HD and 6 levels of Fighter (of which the latter would technically be a higher CR, I think). The former has a Paralyze DC of 18 (without Feats...I'd totally give him Ability Focus and that Feat from Libris Mortis to bump that up to a DC of 24, but that's besides the point), whilst the latter has a DC of 15. You can argue that that's not a massive difference, but I think it's a significant one for the purpose of the example.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Back to the OP... here is the relevant text (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) that explicitly answers the question.


Improving Monsters
Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels.

Class Levels
Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of "By character class" in their Advancement line. When a monster adds a class level, that level usually represents an increase in experience and learned skills and capabilities.

Increased Hit Dice
Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.

Templates
Both intelligent and nonintelligent creatures with an unusual heritage or an inflicted change in their essential nature may be modified with a template. Templates usually result in tougher monsters with capabilities that differ from those of their common kin.



Each of these options for Monster Advancement is more finely detailed at the link posted above.

So there is your answer. Some of the other posters who commented... may need to review their answers.

[Greenish]

Back to the OP... here is the relevant text (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) that explicitly answers the question.

<snip>

So there is your answer. Some of the other posters who commented... may need to review their answers.I don't see anyone claiming that you couldn't advance both HD and class levels. :smallconfused: