Combat Intelligence - Sundering in 3.5

[Ripptor]

So, I'm trying to roll up a combat strategist type, and I'm having some difficulty in a way I didn't expect.

I have an intelligent warrior who's 'thing' is to use his vast knowledge to his advantage. He has ranks in all knowledge categories, the Knowledge Devotion feat (which allows checks for attack bonuses), Power Attack to turn those into damage bonuses, but I was lost for other ways to give him tactical advantages.

Then I found the Combat Engineer feat, which improves a character's ability to sunder in and out of combat. The name/flavor really stuck out to me, and I'm considering going the sundering route now. But I have a few concerns...

1) Is sundering in combat really an 'intelligent' thing to do? I can already see my fellow players complaining about me destroying expensive loot, both in and out of character. I don't want to upset my fellow players.

2) Is sundering in combat 'unbalancing'? Going dedicated sunderer, it seems like I can carve through weapons fairly quickly, leaving my opponents empty-handed. Will this skew the dynamics of combat significantly? I don't want to upset my DM.

3) On the other hand, is sundering 'worth it'? Reading online, I see a lot of people either hating it or disregarding it entirely. Am I just wasting time and effort by sundering? As well, against creatures sundering is useless, giving me no benefit. Should I just be looking elsewhere?

Thanks for your help!

[Nettlekid]

Where is the Combat Engineer feat from?

[Lateral]

1) Is sundering in combat really an 'intelligent' thing to do? I can already see my fellow players complaining about me destroying expensive loot, both in and out of character. I don't want to upset my fellow players.
Pretty much no. If you're fighting enemies who actually use weapons, they're going to become magical pretty quickly, and then you're destroying potential loot. Which makes nobody happy.


2) Is sundering in combat 'unbalancing'? Going dedicated sunderer, it seems like I can carve through weapons fairly quickly, leaving my opponents empty-handed. Will this skew the dynamics of combat significantly? I don't want to upset my DM.
Not even a little bit. Keep in mind, there are a lot of enemies that don't even use weapons. The majority, in fact. Plus, see the above.


3) On the other hand, is sundering 'worth it'? Reading online, I see a lot of people either hating it or disregarding it entirely. Am I just wasting time and effort by sundering? As well, against creatures sundering is useless, giving me no benefit. Should I just be looking elsewhere?!
Well... it's not worthless, but it certainly isn't worth spending any resources on. The majority of creatures don't use weapons, although that varies from campaign to campaign, and even if you can sunder them, you're still destroying loot. The best use of sunder, really, is to screw over wizards by destroying their spell component pouches or such, but you don't really need to take any particular feats to be able to do that on the one or two occasions it will ever come up.

Now, with that said, if you find yourself fighting a lot of humanoid enemies who don't wield anything better than a masterwork longsword, it might be a decent tactic, but even then I'd rather be disarming them and using that as a small part of a lockdown build.

[GreenETC]

If you want a good Knowledge Devotion character to be a master strategist, I'd advise going Duskblade, as they get Full BaB, Int as a Secondary/Tertiary stat, and all Knowledges as class skills.

Sundering is usually not recommended because by the time it fully comes online (around level 6 when you get Combat Brute) the enemies will have magic weapons or no weapons at all, meaning you're either smashing the awesome treasure you're supposed to get or doing nothing at all. It's for this same reason that Disarming usually falls aside as well.

Overall, I'd say try to go for a Duskblade Tripper/Disarmer, using the channeling to represent focusing on priority targets, using the utility spells like Swift Expeditious/Invisibility to aid combat maneuvering, and then going for either Disarm or Trip, or possibly both. A Human Duskblade can get Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, and Knowledge Devotion by 3rd level. Wield a Ranseur and go crazy, or get EWP: Spiked Chain and start picking up Improved Trip to increase your versatility.

[JellyPooga]

Sunder, as a combat mechanic, is frighteningly effective. People only dislike it because it has a tendency to destroy precious, precious loot. Going up against a dude with a big badass sword is scary. The same guy, without that sword and no unarmed combat Feats, is a pathetically trivial encounter.

This is, of course, dependent on that guy not having a decent backup or relying on weaponry/equipment for his scariness! A Grey Render or Nightwing doesn't give two hoots if you're the Master-of-Sundering, because they've nothing for you to Sunder.

If you've got the build spare and want to have it as one of the "tricks" in your book, then by all means make it one. It is an effective sort of tactic when it's relevant, but don't make it the primary focus of your build, because like the Enchanter in a dungeon full of Undead, you may find yourself feeling a bit useless.

[Big Fau]

You've already pointed out the loot problem, so let me point out another issue: Natural Weapons. Sundering doesn't affect a majority of the enemies in the MMs, and for that reason it is a bit of a wasted investment.

As to other players getting annoyed over your destructive capability, if you insist on Sundering ask the DM to modify Make Whole so it restores magical abilities (possibly at the cost of a material component or XP component). Or import the residium thing from 4E (sundered items drop the materials needed to repair those items, removing the cost entirely).

[Ripptor]

Where is the Combat Engineer feat from?

Apparently it's from Dragon Magazine. I found it by Googling a list of 3.5 feats, and just scrolling through.


If you want a good Knowledge Devotion character to be a master strategist, I'd advise going Duskblade, as they get Full BaB, Int as a Secondary/Tertiary stat, and all Knowledges as class skills.
...
Overall, I'd say try to go for a Duskblade Tripper/Disarmer, using the channeling to represent focusing on priority targets, using the utility spells like Swift Expeditious/Invisibility to aid combat maneuvering, and then going for either Disarm or Trip, or possibly both. A Human Duskblade can get Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, and Knowledge Devotion by 3rd level. Wield a Ranseur and go crazy, or get EWP: Spiked Chain and start picking up Improved Trip to increase your versatility.

Yep, I had already found and picked the Duskblade for this character :smallbiggrin: I had considered going the Tripper route, but it seems so lacking to me, at least flavor-wise. I may still grab it anyway, but it's currently plan B.


As to other players getting annoyed over your destructive capability, if you insist on Sundering ask the DM to modify Make Whole so it restores magical abilities (possibly at the cost of a material component or XP component). Or import the residium thing from 4E (sundered items drop the materials needed to repair those items, removing the cost entirely).

That is a neat house-ruling, which I like. That would certainly take the sting and pain out of sundering BOTH ways, allowing the DM to use it without making his player weep as well.


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I guess a lot of this is campaign specific, so I can elaborate. For reference, the link to my current build is in my signature, Ruslan Featherfound (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=631528), a Duskblade who believes he's a True Neutral Paladin. The setting is linked there as well, The Tavern at the End of the Universe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269783).

It's a horror themed campaign with DM-admitted low chances to buy/sell. We're trapped in a plane(maybe?) and trying to find our way out. Encounters so far has consisted of: Gargoyles, Bugs that phase through walls, and dagger-wielding humanoid Cultists.

The character: A (non-denizen) cultist of the Raven Queen (adapted from 4e) who believes his magical power to come from divinity. He has accepted death as a positive and inevitable force in the universe, and defends it, particularly by putting down undead wherever they are found.

Being a faux-paladin, he wears full plate, carries a greatsword, and 'smites' enemies with his melee attacks. He has decently high saves from his physical and mental discipline (Keen Intellect), mimic-ing a paladin, but with woeful (negative) reflex, thinking his religion will protect him, at least until it's 'his time'.

His mental discipline is extended through his book knowledge, from which he derives his strategies to high effectiveness (Knowledge Devotion: Good bonuses to hit vs. monsters), and his arcane studies, where he practices pushing his magical limits (Versatile Spellcaster). These give him various combat options through a diverse tactical spell choice and high attack, which he can channel through Power Attack as he sees fit.

His current lack is strategies vs. non-monsters, outside of 'smite the metal wearer with Shocking Grasp' (or channel Dimension Hop off a cliff). While effective, I'm looking for more than just a beater out of him.. So I'm looking into future feats (and possible retraining) to expand his tactician's edge in mono-a-mono combat.

What options would you suggest, flavorfully, for this type of build?

Sunder stuck out to me as a possibility due to his Greatsword giving him an edge, and busting apart enemy weapons/spellpouches/artifacts/plot devices seemed like a sound tactical route (Combat Brute). Tripping is also an idea, as well as maybe going the flanking bonuses route(Expert Tactician), but nothing has really stuck out to me yet as a 'definite'.

Thanks again in advance for the help!

[Hamste]

Sundering is awesome...
Nice sword you have there to bad it is broken.

Wait you needed that spell component pouch to cast spells?

Sorry about breaking your holy symbol...maybe you should have made it out of stronger stuff then wood though.

Very few classes are resistant to losing their equipment and there is a ton of ways to buff up you sunder checks to make it nearly impossible for your opponents to defend. Of course it will never be used to it's fullest as it involves destroying your loot to do it.