Malack and things that have been bugging me. [Archive]

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Tircey

2013-08-25, 07:50 PM

So I was thinking on it quite heavily and some things been bugging me. I was reading some comments in other threads and they bugged me more. So I decided to write a thread to get all my thoughts out and let everyone pick at them to see if I'm justified or delusional :smallannoyed:

Anyways, this will have 2 major parts, how and why. Also as a very very big point. If the Giant says he's forever dead all this is moot. It's the Giant story and I'm not going to demand he change it because I don't agree.
HOW:
First off people have said it's impossible to bring Malack back from his destruction. I think that's complete horse pucky.
1) Wish and Limited Wish. While both these spells have stated effects, they also open to DM interpretation. Now Tarquin's team seems to have both a high level rogue (cat-eared woman) and an arcane spell caster in the scarf-faced man (Mirron Dewshanker?) Assuming they about equal to Tarquin, Malack and Laurin, they should easily be 17th+ level and either have the spells, via spellbooks or scrolls/use magic device.
2) Reality Revision. Laurin is a psion and can use 9th level powers (The gate/wormhole I think proves that) Unless she is banned from using clairsentience powers she should be able to bring Malack back through this (even if she has to manifest it twice. Once to recreate the body and once to stuff the soul back. It even says in the d20srd that you can do more dangerous effects but they might backfire or not work as intended.
3) Rings of Wishes, Scrolls of Wish, Luckblades etc etc. Tarquin might have one of these laying around or be capable of getting one.
4) True Ressurection and fiddling about. Bring him back as a living lizardman, and pay/force a vampire to re-vamp him and release him from thralldom. (though what that would end up with is a pretty interesting question in it's own right)
5) A homebrew spell like Protection From Sunlight that acts as a raise dead type effect for a destroyed vampire. Either if Malack had one or paying a decently high level priest/wizard (or Mirron Dewshanker) to research it. Might take longer to make the spell but once made, cast once and you have a nice new vampire cleric.

now for the why.
1) Tarquin is powerful enough to control empires. I'm 110% sure he could afford any of those above mentioned ways assuming his party can't do any of them.
2) He killed Nale (at least said it so I'm going to take it as face value and not read into it) over Nale killing Malack. Laurin was ready to attack Nale when he gloated about it. So 2 members of the team were upset that Malack died. I feel it is safe to assume that the team likes Malack enough to want to bring him back. So if Laurin can use Reality Revision why on earth wouldn't she? If Mirron Dewshanker can cast Wish or research a spell, and feels the same way tarquin and Laurin do, why wouldn't he? if he can't, why wouldn't Tarquin hire a wizard to do it?
3) Malack was fairly important in the scheme to run the empires. Plus he was a powerful ally and asset. Makes sense to get him back.
4) He's story is done. Umm... no. Malack would have a major story with the order and Durkon. I think you could easily have a story about either the order going after him for what he did or if they manage ot ressurect Durkon, Durkon would want to have words with Malack. Granted might end up with him dead again but that's the way to vampires crumbles.
5) The Giant doesn't like to ressurect people. That's a 110% valid reason. As I said earlier it's his story. But I do think it would be weird to at least not explain why they either don't ot can't bring him back.

So anyways if people have answers to these I'd like ot see if I'm missing anything. Jst really been bugging me. (yeah I guess I'm a Malack fanboy:smallbiggrin: )

Porthos

2013-08-25, 07:53 PM

AgentofOdd

2013-08-25, 07:57 PM

Most of the items you mentioned have been brought up at one point or another I think. But yea, it does seem like few folks are taking "Rich doesn't resurrect characters often" as "discussions about resurrections are pointless because narrative reasons." Guess some forms of speculation don't sit well at times.

Cuthalion

2013-08-25, 08:01 PM

Yeah, I doubt Malack's coming back. It would be a bother to kill him again, and who would do it? We also don't need more undead main characters.

Porthos

2013-08-25, 08:10 PM

Here's the other problem. Malack didn't die minutes ago. He, by the rules of D&D, died over 200 years ago.

That puts him straight into the realm of needing Epic Magic when it comes to various Resurrection Spells.

It also means that any DM worth their salt is allowed to start cracking their knuckles and say "You sure you want to do that?" when it comes to Wish Games, no matter how worded.

All that leaves is Revive Undead type spells. Sadly the only one I am aware of requires a body. Which..... is a problem. :smallwink:

They don't even have the ash for a mooted Unresurrect Undead spell. Which means you're back to an analogue of True Resurrection.

And good luck with that. :smallwink:

...

Why it's almost as if Rich mentioned over 200 years dead on purpose or sumthin'! :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalltongue:

Saharo

2013-08-25, 09:20 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html

First three panels. I'm not that familiar with the rules on vampire resurrection, but I think this strip makes it pretty clear that, in this world at least, resurrecting him wouldn't bring back the Malack that Tarquin knew.

Ceaon

2013-08-26, 03:28 AM

If the Giant says he's forever dead all this is moot. It's the Giant story and I'm not going to demand he change it because I don't agree.
I don't think the Giant has said this directly, but it's heavily implied by a quote like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13861815#post13861815) or this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15712004#post15712004).

Anyway, nice that you liked a character this much, but this story is about the Order, and increasing focus on dead antagonists would derail the story for me. If we can think of an explanation for why Team Tarquin doesn't resurrect Malack, then the Giant doesn't necessarily need to provide one.

Chantelune

2013-08-26, 04:05 AM

Killing a character just to bring him back soon after has little to no interest.

Roy is a different case because his death served as a trigger for character's growth for many protagonists and getting him a raise ended up being really difficult and took months of trials and travels before they could. And the Giant had to split the party so Durkon would be far away or Roy would have been back the following morning.

I know death is cheap in D&D, but that's not a reason for trying to make it even cheaper. :smallannoyed:

Rosstin

2013-08-26, 04:29 AM

thatSeniorGuy

2013-08-26, 04:43 AM

The fiends certainly think they exist. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)

nephilia

2013-08-26, 05:04 AM

Have Wish or Limited Wish been mentioned in the game? I'm guessing they have been house-ruled out... most games I play in don't even allow Wish or Limited Wish.

Wish doesn't make any sense as a spell, anyway.

Wish is stated to exist in the comic and even better we know varsuuvius has it in his/her spellbook but he/she could be not able to cast it yet! (7th panel!http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html)

Chantelune

2013-08-26, 05:57 AM

Wish is stated to exist in the comic and even better we know varsuuvius has it in his/her spellbook but he/she could be not able to cast it yet! (7th panel!http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html)

Considering she was getting annoyed by Z's refusal, my guess is she was spouting 9th lvl spells just out of spite and to highlight how he just didn't want to share his custom spell. Wouldn't call that proof. :smalltongue:

Bulldog Psion

2013-08-26, 06:20 AM

Considering she was getting annoyed by Z's refusal, my guess is she was spouting 9th lvl spells just out of spite and to highlight how he just didn't want to share his custom spell. Wouldn't call that proof. :smalltongue:

Agreed. It's like if someone says, "what would you trade that lawnmower for? A Rolls Royce???", it doesn't mean that they have a Rolls in their garage.

nephilia

2013-08-26, 07:17 AM

At least it should proof that the spell do exist, anyway :3

Tircey

2013-08-26, 08:45 AM

The Giant has said he doesn't like True Resurrection for precisely this reason.

I can't imagine he favors Wish Abuse (and analogues) much better. :smallwink:

Malack's gone. And good riddance to him. :smalltongue:

ETA::: If bringing back a vampire that has been dusted was easily available, wouldn't Malack have used it to bring back his children?

It was only a couple of years ago, after all. And even if his friends weren't powerful enough then, you claim they are now. When you can answer me why Malack didn't bring back his children, I'll give your ideas above a bit more credance. :smallwink:

And if your #1 statement is "As a cleric of a Death God, he wouldn't want to bring back his children", I'm sure he said as much to Tarquin about himself one day.

That he changed his mind at the last second is his own darn fault, I suppose. :smalltongue:

Well, I'd say the big reason is Malack wasn't powerful enough to cast any of the proper spells and Tarquin probably wouldn't view Malack's children as being worthwhile to bring back. The other memebers might have felt the same way. If the homebrew spell needed was 7th, he couldn't do it. However tarquin would probably view Malack himself as a lot more important than Malacks children, so would actually expend resources to bring him back.

Well it seems like it's a moot point. Laurin clearly stated Malack is never coming back. So I kinda wish the Giant would actually say why. I'm curious if it's some supernatural reason (the vampiric soul is completely annihilated upon death) or they don't have the power or whatnot.

The Pilgrim

2013-08-26, 08:52 AM

ETA::: If bringing back a vampire that has been dusted was easily available, wouldn't Malack have used it to bring back his children?

I made that point some time ago.

Didn't stop the speculation, of course.

Tircey

2013-08-26, 08:55 AM

I made that point some time ago.

Didn't stop the speculation, of course.

And see above the above post I made. Malack simply might not have been powerful enough and tarquin probably deemed it not worth the resources.

Ceaon

2013-08-26, 11:13 AM

I kinda wish the Giant would actually say why. I'm curious if it's some supernatural reason (the vampiric soul is completely annihilated upon death) or they don't have the power or whatnot.

My guess? That kind of power simply doesn't exist in the OotS-verse. The Giant made a conscious decision that, since such power would break his plot (or, in fact, any plot), none of his character could possess such power.

Roland Itiative

2013-08-26, 11:15 AM

If the party as a whole had the resources to ressurect vampires, they would have no reason to deny them to Malack, who clearly grieved the loss. They were, after all, friends, and that's the sort of stuff friends do.

Morty

2013-08-26, 11:17 AM

Malack was turned into a vampire 200 years before the current strip, and has now been turned into rapidly dispersing ash. He's as dead as dead can be, and I don't think either 'we don't have the super-magic required to bring him back' or 'no such magic even exists' are reasons that need spelling out.

ObadiahtheSlim

2013-08-26, 04:50 PM

Malack is too old to resurrect and True Resurrection cannot raise somebody who would have died of old age. Even a home brewed version of Raise Dead for the undead wouldn't work because there is no corpse. Only epic magic would work and that isn't exactly feasible.

MtlGuy

2013-08-26, 05:32 PM

I recently listened to an interview with Mr. Burlew and he related the following gem he observed at a Babylon 5 Q/A. Some superfan wanted to know how fast a particular ship could move, to determine if a plotline was feasible. Straczynski replied that the ship moves at the speed of plot. If the ship has to get there in time, it does, if it's not supposed to, it doesn't.

For instance, Roy's death and resurrection are integral to the plot and allows for a humorous examination of what the afterlife means to a PC.

Additional, would 'Lizardfolk Shaman' Malack even accept a resurrection coming from someone willing to work with Tarquin?

The Oni

2013-08-26, 10:52 PM

Lizardfolk Shaman Malack was quite likely just as evil as Vampire Malack, if not moreso. To be fair, the only other major lizardfolk character (the bounty hunter) in the comic we know of is Neutral, but it's irrelevant, as reviving either version would require ridiculously epic magic.